Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I was searching online to see when changes should happen on T and when you should be passing. It says between 6 and 12 months after beginning treatment. Now I know it's different for everyone. But this is the time frame here for passing on T.

I just don't understand that after being on T for a year and 4 months I still don't pass and I look exactly the same as I did pre-T. Am I gonna change on T?

I know there are a few guys like me who still don't pass over a year on T, but do you look exactly the same as you did pre-T?

Is something wrong here? Should I be concerned if I'm not passing by the 2 year mark?

Here's the website where I found this info: http://www.ehow.com/how-does_5217285_long-ftm-testosterone-changes-_.html (http://www.ehow.com/how-does_5217285_long-ftm-testosterone-changes-_.html)

Have you asked your doctor if there could be some other problem like androgen resistance?

If I were you, I'd find another doctor, trans friendly and ask him his opinion and to run a couple tests on you.
Just get another opinion, maybe your current doctor did something wrong, i don't know.

Have you looked at pictures side by side? From before and now.
Joey thought she hadn't changed one bit, once she saw her before and after, it was clear she had changed a whole lot.

Also, I don't believe it's all up to T to make you pass.
You need to walk the walk as well.

I'm pre-T and I pass a lot when I go out now.
Before only with appearance I could not pass to save my life.
But then I worked on everything. The way I walk, talk, my manners, my movements,
my attitude...Everything. And I pass.

We were raised as chicks, so we have to work on getting that out of our systems,
and act like we've never been exposed to all that.

Passing isn't just taking a shot or a pill.
It's mastering everything.

Quote from: dalebert on May 31, 2012, 12:32:50 PM
Have you asked your doctor if there could be some other problem like androgen resistance?

No, I haven't asked her. If I do have androgen resistance, are there test to find that out?

Quote from: Jayr on May 31, 2012, 12:51:33 PM
If I were you, I'd find another doctor, trans friendly and ask him his opinion and to run a couple tests on you.
Just get another opinion, maybe your current doctor did something wrong, i don't know.

Have you looked at pictures side by side? From before and now.
Joey thought she hadn't changed one bit, once she saw her before and after, it was clear she had changed a whole lot.

Also, I don't believe it's all up to T to make you pass.
You need to walk the walk as well.

I'm pre-T and I pass a lot when I go out now.
Before only with appearance I could not pass to save my life.
But then I worked on everything. The way I walk, talk, my manners, my movements,
my attitude...Everything. And I pass.

We were raised as chicks, so we have to work on getting that out of our systems,
and act like we've never been exposed to all that.

Passing isn't just taking a shot or a pill.
It's mastering everything.

I don't know any other endo doctors. Can I go to my regular doctor or does it have to be an endo doctor? What kind of  tests do they do to find out if T is working or not?

Yeah, I've looked at pics side by side... I look exactly the same. Everyone tells me that too.

T alone should be able make me pass 100%. I don't want to have to keep my hair short just to get a passing. I wanna grow my hair out long again. I see trans guys who have long hair and pass 100% and some are very feminine but they still pass as male 100%.

I'm so angry that I've been on T for this long and I'm still not passing.

puberty takes more than a year and a few months.  When my brother started puberty he was about 14, he's 18 now and still changing, so keep that in mind.  Plus your body will continually grow and change throughput life.

If you aren't seeing the results you want maybe it's time to re-examine your desire to stay on T, because I know from past posts that you are very concerned about hair loss, and I believe you have even said that the only reason you stay on T is to keep your period from coming.

Call your regular doctor and ask him about it.
I'm pretty sure he/she could do it. Ask if your t levels are at a normal male range.
And hope that they aren't because if they are at a normal range and you've had no changes,
I have NO idea what could be happening with you.

I've had blood work done at the hospital before,
and my family doctor would get all the results and check everything.
That must include hormones.

And I understand wanting long hair and everything.
I'm just saying some of us have to do that extra step to pass.
For some it's either you pass but get rid of those feminine traits you enjoy having;
or you don't pass but get to keep those traits.
It sucks, but it's true.

Keep us updated by the way please.
I'm curious to know what's going on.
o:

QuoteAlso, I don't believe it's all up to T to make you pass.
You need to walk the walk as well.

This.

Sometimes we have to ask ourselves what it is we really want.
When you know that, if you want it enough, you'll be willing to make sacrifices for it.
If not, you likely will not be having it. That's how reality has shaped up for me, anyway.

I originally had looks and mannerisms that were so boyish my family acted ashamed of me. I resisted changing that until it became important (safe) to blend in better. Transistion gave me the opportunity to return to the original me (only better), but it took practice to unlearn her and relearn him.  The point to all that is that we can learn just about anything we have a mind to. Puberty is about figuring ourselves out, trying on new ideas and deciding who we want to be. We are lucky to have a second chance at it. Make it count. It ain't about what anybody else has. It's about what you're willing to do to achieve your dream.

Quote from: Andy8715 on May 31, 2012, 09:35:01 PM
puberty takes more than a year and a few months.  When my brother started puberty he was about 14, he's 18 now and still changing, so keep that in mind.  Plus your body will continually grow and change throughput life.

If you aren't seeing the results you want maybe it's time to re-examine your desire to stay on T, because I know from past posts that you are very concerned about hair loss, and I believe you have even said that the only reason you stay on T is to keep your period from coming.

I'm check with my doctor to see why I haven't changed and what she can do about it. If she can't do anything, I'll stop T, but I'll  be very unhappy b/c I'm not achieving what of getting that desire look that I want.

Quote from: Jayr on June 01, 2012, 03:01:20 AM
Call your regular doctor and ask him about it.
I'm pretty sure he/she could do it. Ask if your t levels are at a normal male range.
And hope that they aren't because if they are at a normal range and you've had no changes,
I have NO idea what could be happening with you.

I've had blood work done at the hospital before,
and my family doctor would get all the results and check everything.
That must include hormones.

And I understand wanting long hair and everything.
I'm just saying some of us have to do that extra step to pass.
For some it's either you pass but get rid of those feminine traits you enjoy having;
or you don't pass but get to keep those traits.
It sucks, but it's true.

Keep us updated by the way please.
I'm curious to know what's going on.
o:

MyT levels have always been at a normal male range. I thought that's how it's supposed to be? In the beginning it was high and my doctor had to lower it. She raised it up a little b/c the T was running low by the second week.  I'm due for a T level check this month. Should I be getting anything else tested?

Quote from: bojangles on June 01, 2012, 08:54:01 AM
This.

Sometimes we have to ask ourselves what it is we really want.
When you know that, if you want it enough, you'll be willing to make sacrifices for it.
If not, you likely will not be having it. That's how reality has shaped up for me, anyway.

I originally had looks and mannerisms that were so boyish my family acted ashamed of me. I resisted changing that until it became important (safe) to blend in better. Transistion gave me the opportunity to return to the original me (only better), but it took practice to unlearn her and relearn him.  The point to all that is that we can learn just about anything we have a mind to. Puberty is about figuring ourselves out, trying on new ideas and deciding who we want to be. We are lucky to have a second chance at it. Make it count. It ain't about what anybody else has. It's about what you're willing to do to achieve your dream.

T at this point should had made me pass/change me within the first 6-12 months and it didn't. Something is wrong here. I don't have feminine mannerisms to me. It's the T, it's not working. If I'm not changed by December, I think I might go off T and be miserable.

Quote from: Dominick_81 on June 01, 2012, 03:56:18 PM

T at this point should had made me pass/change me within the first 6-12 months and it didn't. Something is wrong here. I don't have feminine mannerisms to me. It's the T, it's not working. If I'm not changed by December, I think I might go off T and be miserable.

I'm sorry but it's not supposed to have done anything by a certain time.  Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.  It's largely, if not solely up to genetics.  My advice is to find a good therapist to help you work through your issues self-image issues especially with regards to what your expectations were and how to view the medical transition process in a more realistic light.

Quote from: Andy8715 on June 01, 2012, 04:48:40 PM
I'm sorry but it's not supposed to have done anything by a certain time.  Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.  It's largely, if not solely up to genetics.  My advice is to find a good therapist to help you work through your issues self-image issues especially with regards to what your expectations were and how to view the medical transition process in a more realistic light.

From what I see on YouTube I should look different. I know everyone is different from what Jayr just said about how your not supposed to be in the normal male range  and I have all this time  means something is right... Right?

I see a counselor but like everyone else, I still look the same, with not a whole lot of changes.

Quote from: Dominick_81 on June 01, 2012, 03:56:18 PM
I don't have feminine mannerisms to me. It's the T, it's not working.

A lot of factors go into how people read you. Height, weight, body type, proportion of body parts to one another, hand/arm position (close to body =  read as female), eye contact, hand gestures, speech patterns, vocal volume, posture, and so on. The little things tend to add up, and people unconsciously use them to locate you in one category or the other. It's more than just mannerisms; it's the whole package, if you'll pardon the pun.

As for mannerisms, many CIS MEN have one or more that people typically read as female; it's just that the other factors combine to outweigh the "female" characteristics. But let's assume that what you say is true: you haven't a single mannerism that is typically read as female. Yet you posted a video some months ago and seemed to be speaking very softly and tentatively. You didn't project very much confidence. I'm not stupid enough to say that attitude is everything, but I know that most spectators will read those characteristics as female.

You also say that you don't want to post pix and videos that show more of your body and your way of carrying yourself. You have said that you are self-conscious about your shape or your weight, I believe. What if those characteristics are holding you back? It's not all about testosterone. Some guys have more trouble being read as male until they achieve a particular fat-to-muscle ratio, for instance. T often helps guys to lose fat and gain muscle, but we often have to help that process along.

Whether people are reading mannerisms or other characteristics or a combination, you clearly have some attributes that tip the balance. For instance, if you're a typical FTM, you have bodily characteristics--some of them might be quite subtle all by themselves--that add up in the wrong ways. Some physical effects take a long time to achieve on T--longer than a year to fully complete, even on a "full" dose--and some other characteristics are up to you.

If you want reasonably honest advice about how you come across, it would be very helpful if you could provide more data. Your face looks 100% boy to me, but I wonder about everything else. I wouldn't want to post videos myself, but maybe you can use the Just for Us FTM section.

BTW, if you don't take dosage into effect, you ought to. I have a friend who says it took him a good year and a half, and he was on a "full" dose for the entire time. And another friend, my good buddy, is still read as female sometimes, and he has been on T for nearly three years. But guess what? For most of that time, he was on a low dose, just as you have been.

In addition, he is short, his voice is tenor, he is black (so his facial hair doesn't stand out very well), and he has some femmy hand gestures and vocal characteristics. He has gained some weight in the past year--fat, not muscle--and the effect has been somewhat feminizing. His face looks fuller, for one thing.

So you are not the only one.

In the end, you will do what you need to do. If you want to quit, then quit. At least the hair loss should stop. But please recognize that your 6-12-month timetable is very limited and misleading, and try to take all the factors into consideration. And let us help. We would like to, but you don't give us many good opportunities. We don't really know what other people see.

Over a year and a half here and I'm still not seen as male much but I know I see major changes. People on here have mentioned seeing changes in you, it's likely that you don't see the changes yourself.

@Arch: But what about gay men who act girlie? They are seen as a total man. Even if I did have feminine mannerisms to me then I should be seen as a gay male, ya know?

QuoteYou also say that you don't want to post pix and videos that show more of your body and your way of carrying yourself. You have said that you are self-conscious about your shape or your weight, I believe. What if those characteristics are holding you back? It's not all about testosterone. Some guys have more trouble being read as male until they achieve a particular fat-to-muscle ratio, for instance. T often helps guys to lose fat and gain muscle, but we often have to help that process along.

Yeah, I'm not very comfortable posting videos just yet. I wanna wait until I'm more comfortable with myself.  T made me stockier. I can see guys bulk up, not fat or anything, but T just made them bigger.  My endo doctor has told me the fat has redistributed in my stomach, and it has also redistributed in my face too, which is why my face looks fatter.

I don't really work out, but I have been taking my dog for walks and trying to eat better.

QuoteBTW, if you don't take dosage into effect, you ought to. I have a friend who says it took him a good year and a half, and he was on a "full" dose for the entire time. And another friend, my good buddy, is still read as female sometimes, and he has been on T for nearly three years. But guess what? For most of that time, he was on a low dose, just as you have been.

What do you mean take dosage into effect? Wow, that sucks to be read as female 3 years on T.

I can pass as male to people once they know up front that I am male. But when someone doesn't know I'm male, I get female, like they can't tell if I'm male or female but they go with female instead of male.

Aren't my T levels supposed to be at a normal male range?


@Nygeel: Sorry your still getting read as female most of the time, I know it sucks.

The only changes I've seen in myself are fat redistribution and body hair and that's what others have seen too. My voice is still too high. I want it to drop more. People still recognize my voice over a year and only tell me it's got'n a little deeper. My friend mother who hasn't seen me in over 5 years still thinks I look exactly the same, just stockier.

Quote from: Casey on June 01, 2012, 10:22:16 PM
maybe your endo means you're in the lower range for male? Because the "normal" spectrum is quite large.

I feel for you though. Let's be honest, all of us go into T hoping to have the best results possible, so to have that not happen is pretty gutting. I hope that things get better for you soon. I saw one guy on Youtube and I think it took him a good year and a half before he really passed, so you never know.

I'm also trying to remember your accent...I know next to nothing about the US and the parts of the US, but I do know that I've heard a lot of women, with your accent or one similar, who fall into the lower range. So that might be a part of it, interestingly enough.

@Casey: I'm not sure. I think she meant my T levels were in the normal male range.

"I hope that things get better for you soon."

Thanks Casey.

Wow, really? A good year and a half? That sucks it took so long.

I don't think my voice has changed since the last time I posted a voice clip, but I'll post another tomorrow.

Also I wanted to say, a phrase that gets thrown around a lot in the trans community is ""T will do great things for you" or "man, your gonna pass so good when you get on T."  That phrase implies that T is going to instantly be a godsend and work wonders on wonders when in actuality no one knows what T is going to do for a particular individual, and that coupled with seeing vids of guys who had great genetics make for a lot of angst and worry because they aren't passing a relatively short amount of time in.

Quote from: Dominick_81 on June 01, 2012, 10:14:54 PM
@Arch: But what about gay men who act girlie? They are seen as a total man. Even if I did have feminine mannerisms to me then I should be seen as a gay male, ya know?

Unless a trans guy has been fantastically lucky in the morphology department, these gay guys have huge physical advantages over us. Plus, if you're talking about a full-blown man, even a 21-year-old, he's had years of puberty, PLUS the physical advantages he started out with.

I think we all compare ourselves to cis guys--how can we not? But the trick is in knowing when to stop.

QuoteWhat do you mean take dosage into effect?

Guys on a lower dose will, on average, take longer to see the same changes that another guy has on the "standard" dose. For all I know, the standard dose is too high by far, but I'm sure that the masculinization estimates you're reading are based on a significantly higher dose than you've been getting. I don't know what your dose is now, and I don't want to run afoul of the TOS, so I will leave it at that.

@Andy8715: Yeah, I hear that a lot and I assumed when I took T that eventually it will happen. Actually, I thought it would happen in the first few months, but for it didn't.

@Arch: I'm talking about trans men. I've seen some gay trans men on youtube and they pass 100%.

Oh, okay, I see now about the dosage thing. What's TOS?

TOS - Terms of service or rules for this site

@LordKAT: Thanks.

I passed pretty well before T, but that was when I was 29 and 30 and I didn't pass as the age I was. I've been on T since December, and my voice dropping is the only game-changing effect I've had so far. Pre-T, I started passing better when I went from a mohawk to short hair, when I learned to cut my "sideburns" straight across, and when I started shaving off the peachfuzz. Probably different tactics work for everybody.

@Felix: It does take a while for changes to come or to even notice. The only changes I've noticed looking back at my old photos was weight and how the fat had redistributed in the face and stomach and that's it. Do you take pics or do videos to see your changes?

Quote from: Dominick_81 on June 02, 2012, 09:19:21 PM
@Felix: It does take a while for changes to come or to even notice. The only changes I've noticed looking back at my old photos was weight and how the fat had redistributed in the face and stomach and that's it. Do you take pics or do videos to see your changes?

I've taken pictures here and there, but I haven't been very methodical and I've mostly been relying on my subjective perception and the comments of people around me. I do have a lot of new hair and I have had good muscle growth and fat redistribution, but a lot of it isn't noticeable except to those who I'm intimate with.

I know that confidence is not exclusively male, but it does tend to come across as masculine in this country. If you OWN it, own your confidence, own your gender, tell yourself that of course you're male, it certainly couldn't hurt.

I'm pretty sure that confidence was the deciding factor for me. At a certain point after starting T, I was still sometimes read as female. Then I had top surgery, and the surge of confidence was...well, huge. I saw my therapist five days after the surgery, and he commented on my sudden change in demeanor. After that, I consistently passed as male with strangers, day after day and week after week. I don't think the T suddenly changed me noticeably in a one-week period.

Arch, thank you. That's kinda what I was trying to say, but you express things better.

I was a hunched over foot watcher most of my life. Standing up straighter and looking the world in the eye have made a huge difference...something my friends have commented on. Had an experience like that soon after making the decision to go forward. Confidence surged. For the first time in years, I was read as male by a stranger...pre T, hair down to my waist, wearing shorts and a t shirt...no binder, no packer, nothing but attitude. Very eye opening.

I can still look in the mirror and see the old me because of the wide hips, fat butt, small hands, short arms and legs, soft skin...and not the best chest surgery. It only fuels frustration and obsession to focus on that stuff. Instead, I make myself go do something positive to help things along and try to be patient with the process. Have not been misgendered in a long time. I don't know exactly why, but it's not because I've gotten all the changes I want.

Of course, there are other reasons to be misread. Just don't underestimate the value of simple things like posture, a confident walk, working out the upper body to balance our shape better, etc...things we can take charge of to build confidence until it comes natural.

Dominick, I've read through a couple of threads you started about frustration from changes not happening fast, and people repetitively telling you YMMV, and you still arguing that changes should've happened by "set amount of time."

I am on a lower than average dose of T, when I started I was on such a low dose my endo told me no changes would probably happen while I was on that dose, I still took it, because at least it was something. Now I am still on a lower than normal dose, and have been on this dose for around a year but I started the lower dose over a year ago. I got lucky that I passed before T, because up until maybe a month ago, I saw no changes in me at all, except a bit of hair on my chin coming in. So changes were quite slow for me, but very recently I am starting to notice changes now at just a bit over a year total on T. When I first started T I was really excited cause I was and am still quite young so I thought changes would happen very fast compared to people who are older than me going on T. Being way too optimistic just made me disapointed when nothing was happening.

You just have to trust that the rate at which changes will come WILL be different for everyone, I'm sure you will start noticing changes soon, keep a positive attitude and positive things will happen for sure.

I also agree 110% with what Arch said, before I decided to present as male, everyone thought without a doubt I was very much female, once I decided to start presenting as male, right away I was passing, and I didn't look super manly or nothing, and nothing had changed. It's all about the "vibes/presence"(for lack of a better word) you give off.

Good luck to you.

@Felix: Sorry your not having more noticeable changes. But it's good your getting some hair, muscle, and fat redistribution. Hope you get some more changes soon.

@The Hawk: What does YMMV stand for? I suck with these abbreviation things sometimes, lol. I'm sorry your changes have been slow for you too. I'm glad to hear that your noticing some changes now.

QuoteYou just have to trust that the rate at which changes will come WILL be different for everyone, I'm sure you will start noticing changes soon, keep a positive attitude and positive things will happen for sure.

I'll try to keep a positive attitude.

QuoteI know that confidence is not exclusively male, but it does tend to come across as masculine in this country. If you OWN it, own your confidence, own your gender, tell yourself that of course you're male, it certainly couldn't hurt.

I've tried this and still got read as female. It's gotta be my height.

QuoteFor the first time in years, I was read as male by a stranger...pre T, hair down to my waist, wearing shorts and a t shirt...no binder, no packer, nothing but attitude. Very eye opening.

That's awesome!

YMMV = Your mileage may vary

Quote from: LordKAT on June 06, 2012, 03:17:02 AM
YMMV = Your mileage may vary

Thanks.