Susan's Place Transgender Resources

apparently, most ts women are extremely feminine. so, why do you think there are less women who are in tune with their feminine side? what makes a woman feminine?

I think you should be yourself,that is what makes you unique. What makes a person is what they believe in and being true to oneself,femininity is different for everyone I think,to me even Beast, of the beauty and the beast had a touch of femininity. Each person will probably say femininity is something different in their view. I dont know.

Hmmmm
I think why????
"why who she is"  That's what i think..
Feminity is displayed in the most curious of ways by the displayer and women all seem to display that in so very different tones,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, :-*
Ricki

If I may be permitted, I would like to recommend a wonderful book that answers this question quite succinctly. I am now reading it for the 4th time, and every time I read it, I get a little more out of it.  It was given to me as a gift by a GG friend a couple of years ago when I was just coming out full time.

The title is "What Makes a Woman Very Sexy", by Julia Grice.  It was written for natal women, but it can be applied to transwomen as well. It covers things like walking, talking, toying with your hair, smiling and shrugging your shoulders..... all the subtleties that make a woman a woman. Most of it is based on a plethora of surveys that Julia conducted amongst men.

I don't have any financial interest in the book, I am simply endorsing it because it has helped me immensely.  It has transformed me into a world class flirt!   ;D

Pam

Quote from: Feral Cat on April 06, 2007, 12:53:30 AM
If I may be permitted, I would like to recommend a wonderful book that answers this question quite succinctly. I am now reading it for the 4th time, and every time I read it, I get a little more out of it.  It was given to me as a gift by a GG friend a couple of years ago when I was just coming out full time.

The title is "What Makes a Woman Very Sexy", by Julia Grice.  It was written for natal women, but it can be applied to transwomen as well. It covers things like walking, talking, toying with your hair, smiling and shrugging your shoulders..... all the subtleties that make a woman a woman. Most of it is based on a plethora of surveys that Julia conducted amongst men.

I don't have any financial interest in the book, I am simply endorsing it because it has helped me immensely.  It has transformed me into a world class flirt!   ;D

Pam

I got this book a couple weeks ago based on this recommendation.  I got it online for a penny plus about $3 for shipping.  I'm about 85% done with it, but I have found that many of the behaviors it describes were ones that I was already doing.  In fact, I think I was unintentionally doing that even back when trying to live like a guy.  No wonder it didn't work.  Anyways, it does give me something to focus on and there are a few things I can improve on, but in general I've been having pretty good success since going fulltime and now I at least know what I was doing right. :)  I think in some ways I had an advantage growing up around guys since I knew what turned a lot of them on.

What makes a woman feminine? Being herself and being confident and proud of it.

In the classical sense, I believe that femininity is best expressed by someone who:

- is alluring (not necessarily in a sexual way)
- takes care of herself
- has a sense of humor
- freely expresses love
- is slow to anger
- smiles a lot
- has a sense of class (not necessarly in a materialistic way)
- her actions are deliberate and not wild
- is compassionate
- enjoys life
- demonstrates motherly instincts
- is considerate
- is honest
- is slightly irrational at times
- can honestly cry

Paris Hilton is not feminine!  ;)

Cindi

Quote from: Cindi Jones on May 10, 2007, 06:06:04 PM

Paris Hilton is not feminine!  ;)

Cindi

Yep and she gives a bad name to women.

LLL&R

Maebh

One word....

Attitude

Im strong, Im beautiful, I'm fierce, and loveing   >:D

What makes a woman feminine?

I really don't know. I do know what doesn't make a transwoman feminine and that is the affected gestures and walk that I see so many T's display.

One word: the soul.

You cannot hide the soul behind clothing, or hairstyle, or even mannerisms.

It shines through the eyes, and the voice celebrates it, like a song.

And it is not related to being male or female.

JMNSHO    ;)

learning to be, and express, herself.

there really is no need to dissect.

we are what we are. there is no us and them.

we are just us.

"What Makes a Woman Very Sexy", by Julia Grice.

There is another book that I am now reading for the second time.
Title: "Femininity"
Author: Susan Brownmiller.
It's a wonderful read for those who want to know what it's like to grow up and be a girl.
:)

The actual word "Feminine" is derived from Artistic. Men and Women both can be feminine as we know. But as a man let me say this.... what attracts me to a woman is her essense, she does not have the essense of a man, she has something within her that is woman ( her soul, spirit, something in there). Now she can display it with what we consider social feminine qualities, but feminine alone does not make a woman a woman, her essense does. this is just my opinion from the male perspective.

Peace Lovely Ladies!

Taylor

Call me old fashioned but it's something going out of style quite quickly and it will be one of the worlds greatest losses.  Femininity is something that allows a woman to become a lady, it permits a lady to perform in a manner than she can act in disguise and still act with grace. It is also a side to a woman that can show gentleness and express confidence with style. I could go on but I'm sure there are many who disagree,  alas the times we live in.

Nice legs, high heels, trim waist, makeup, earrings lipstick ,her big eyes , smile hairstyle, delicate demeanor, and yes boobs are nice to display too.  Unfortunately, the unfeminine qualities of women today are the consequence of being liberated. It goes with the territory.  Most of us have detached ourselves from the traditional ways of rearing young girls.  We instill the notion that a girl is absolutely no different than a boy.  Laughable as it may be, Nonetheless, it has become the mainstay of the liberation movement.  Many women like us do not like what the female has become. Hence, they ask the same question you just asked.
There is nothing wrong with being a traditional woman with all the feminine qualities.

Quote from: Fer on May 22, 2007, 02:04:27 PM
Nice legs, high heels, trim waist, makeup, earrings lipstick ,her big eyes , smile hairstyle, delicate demeanor, and yes boobs are nice to display too.  Unfortunately, the unfeminine qualities of women today are the consequence of being liberated. It goes with the territory.  Most of us have detached ourselves from the traditional ways of rearing young girls.  We instill the notion that a girl is absolutely no different than a boy.  Laughable as it may be, Nonetheless, it has become the mainstay of the liberation movement.  Many women like us do not like what the female has become. Hence, they ask the same question you just asked.
There is nothing wrong with being a traditional woman with all the feminine qualities.

Ditto, couldn't have said it any better :)

Quote from: Fer on May 22, 2007, 02:04:27 PM
Nice legs, high heels, trim waist, makeup, earrings lipstick ,her big eyes , smile hairstyle, delicate demeanor, and yes boobs are nice to display too.  Unfortunately, the unfeminine qualities of women today are the consequence of being liberated...

Let me guess, you're young, pretty and easily passable? If you weren't, would you still make the same comment? And can you make the same comment in 10, 20 or 30 years? And what's wrong with being liberated? What's wrong about being a strong, confident, independent, liberated woman and let your femininity be what it is? If you want to believe and follow the fashion magazines as gospel, be my guest, but please be generous with those who don't and can't, be they women or transwomen. It's about being a person that's most important, and being feminine it relative to your culture.

I'm not being critical. I feel we have to be understanding that our fortune isn't universal and the most important characteristic is about being human, compassionate, understanding, and supportive. The rest is what we started with, learned, and are as we live in the world.

From what I've seen, modern girls want to do all the boys can do AND
be a feminine sexy girl and eventually a super-soccer-mom.

Many of the career women, especially in the big cities, I see are more feminine in their presentation than stay at home moms of the 60's (and even all those that come after.

Women spend more on fashion, cosmetics, creams, health products than at any time in history; they are girly, sexy, confident, they are women... And they roar (see the song "I am woman from 1975).

I think some have an idealized view of how women were in the past.

I work with 87 women on a daily basis. What makes a woman feminine you ask? Well some women dress very girly, and are very feminine pointing out what is cute and what isnt, comparing hairstyles and colors and makeup tips and nails and shoes and .........etc.

Some women are just slightly feminine and just dab a dash of makeup on and wear scrubs.

Some women wear no makeup, don't get their hair done, walk straight and stiff, are all businesslike and serious.

Some women are a mixture of all three. Some are like some men I have met. They curse, spit, talk about who they screwed, and brag on how drunk they got last weekend and they look more girly than many of the women they work with.

I have seen gay men act more feminine than most women I work with!!! I have seen straight men act slightly feminine.

Acting feminine is a personal thing. Some females are more feminine, and some males are more feminine than their counterparts.

Being me has its advantages because women feel very comfortable with  me around and they are themselves. They don't care what they say around me nor do they care what I see. After 7 years I've seen pretty much everything being the ONLY MALE employee in the company. Yes that is right. I have observed and seen things that blew every theory of what I thought a woman was right out of the water. Women are just people and guess what? They are all different. They are just breasted Americans that have more freedoms then their male counterparts have. I know some of the most unfeminine females you would ever care to know, yet they are female. I know some of the most feminine women you would ever care to know as well...and they are less than 5% of the women that work for the company. Most are not that feminine....they are just female.

Now the drug reps that come to schmooze the doctors into using their drugs are a different story. Most of these women look like they stepped out of a page of some magazine like Newport News, or Fredericks, or Victoria Secrets. They look like that 5% I was telling you about. The bigger the drug company, the younger and prettier the reps will be.

When the competition gets going....the tough get very feminine. They work out, get their hair done, boob jobs, and are just drop dead beautiful. What makes them feminine? Competition from other women trying to outdo their beauty. Women have their beauty and they will pull out every trick, tip and fashion idea to outdo the threat. They will act very coy and girly around the male Dr's but when he turns his back, out come her fangs and claws if she senses another drug rep nearby. Its a cut throat industry and these gals are armed to the teeth with femininity.

I can only tell you what makes me feel feminine.  Having a lovely smelly bubbly bath and a lovely smelly body lotion afterwards. Experimenting with my hair, up or down or chopped or whatever, deciding which earrings look best with what hair and clothes. A bottle of expensive perfume. Spray the air with it and walk in it.  Giving myself a manicure and pedicure. Giving myself facials.  I love to go to the salon and get my hair styled every week if possible. I also love lingerie, and naturally I like to cook for my man while he feeds me compliments about how good my cooking is. A man can make a woman feel girly just by saying little things that they know we would like to hear. ;)

Quote from: Feral Cat on April 06, 2007, 12:53:30 AM
---snip---

The title is "What Makes a Woman Very Sexy", by Julia Grice.  It was written for natal women, but it can be applied to transwomen as well. It covers things like walking, talking, toying with your hair, smiling and shrugging your shoulders..... all the subtleties that make a woman a woman. Most of it is based on a plethora of surveys that Julia conducted amongst men.

----snip----

On you say, I just ordered a used copy of that book from Amazon.com (http://amazon.com) for $4.00. Not bad!

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0396089615/ref=dp_olp_2/104-0912886-1758325 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0396089615/ref=dp_olp_2/104-0912886-1758325)

I don't think any book can teach one to be sexy unless, of course, I decide to write one! ;D

Quote from: Jeannette on May 23, 2007, 02:49:13 AM
I can only tell you what makes me feel feminine...

All that stuff is great but getting called the B word or the C word is what does it for me.

Myself, I like women who are buff and a little on the butch side yet with a pretty face. I met this woman the other night with really nice arms, yeah arms, SEXY!!! We flirted but it didn't go further, but I will see her around, she is a recovering addict and alcoholic like me so I will see her around town at meetings, so...

The C word?....LOL  ;D...are you serious? yeah, I guess it could in a way.... ;D  I was called the C word once and all I did was laughed, for I found it amusing.

tink :icon_chick:

The C word to me is a rite of passage, it means you have arrived, girl!

Only got called it a couple times, only caused I am all sweetness and light! LOL

What I am about to say is most likely going to really get under the skin of a lot of people. First of all, how does long hair and breast equal being feminine? If this is truly the case then I would love to see you tell that a breast cancer survivor who went through chemo and had a double-mastectomy to save her life. Nearly every aspect listed by people and is usually the general consensus, deals with purely superficial extras that go along with being feminine. Make-up, clothing, legs, mannerisms, and all the other societal induced reasons are all based on one thing. The perspective of men towards women.

Even the books you are recommending to one another are based upon the surveys of men. Has anyone ever read any feminist or women's liberation literature? The hair and the make-up and the boobs are all great but they do define femininity by any stretch of the imagination. As one person said, it is the soul. femininity comes from with your being and exudes through your personality. We put high heels and lipstick on a pig and it isn't going to make it a woman.

I used to see the world as it has been stated in here before i was with my last girlfriend. she is a feminist. Not in the sense of men are evil and burn all the bras. She is very much a sex in the city kind of girl but she also believes in no objectification of women. She taught me and showed me all of the hellish things women have to go through to try and survive day to day in our society. I saw what an jerk I was before then and it really helps me spot the jerks now when i am out and about.

Being sexy is great and being a girly girl is awesome. But not of that makes anyone feminine at all. What it does is makes a person more attractive to the other people. Being attractive and being feminine may not always coincide with one another. I for one enjoy doing my make-up and having my hair done. Once i get done writing this long diatribe, i am going to watch movies and do my nails. I am not feminine for what i do. I am feminine for who I am.

My opinion of why so many TS see femininity as all of the girly girl superficial BS is because throughout their lives they didn't have to be indoctrinated into the world of gender biased at all. Before we all made the choice to live how we felt we should we were all men in the eyes of society. With that assumption came much privilege and power. For those years we were given an expectation of what a woman should be. It was based on the things people in here seem to think make a woman a woman. It is those male expectations of femininity that TS women bring into their new gender roles. 

If any of you ever wonder why genetic woman think we are just men is dresses simply look at some of the ways femininity is so blatantly objectified by the TS community and you will see why. We no longer want the stigma of being referred to as men and want to be seen as woman but so many of us have no concept of what being a woman is really about. It would seem that all most TS women only have the male ideal when it comes to what femininity really is.

In closing I would like to recommend a list of books that weren't written from surveys taken by men.

http://www.amazon.com/Beauty-Myth-Images-Against-Women
http://www.amazon.com/Body-Project-Intimate-History-American
http://www.amazon.com/Wimp-Factor-Politics-Anxious-Masculinity
http://www.amazon.com/Where-Girls-Are-Growing-Female
http://www.amazon.com/Womens-America-Refocusing-Linda-Kerbe
http://www.amazon.com/Born-Liberty-Sara-Evans

Renae, you go girl!

Actually, the women that I find the sexiest are womyn that some males would deride as Diesel Dykes! Actually, it's more like a femme butch type that drives me insane!

But this false (male) ideal that is being conveyed here by a couple of the posters quite frankly nauseates me. OTOH I am not sure these posters are even for real as them being bona fide TS women, they might be wannabes or just guys getting their jollies off.

I know men try to sneak onto the gay women forums all the time.

While I somehow agree that men's view of women play a big part in how TS want to be viewed, saying that many women don't feel the same, or are not partner in this vision, is poppycock. It comes from a feminist opinion that I cannot adhere too; if women want to be pretty or sexy, its not all men's fault!!!

Women's view of themselves is much more complex than that. They adhere to all sorts of view which at first glance seems contradictory, spending so much time worrying about how they look, but also about their carreers, their children, their family. They want to be all, sexy one day, a super mother another day, an activist another day. If a TS want to be brillant girly girl there a plenty of that kind of normal girls in the worlds and I don't see them as any less worthy of emulation than a frumpy brilliant feminist.

My own opinion is that those that do FFS appeal by default to an idealized view of a beautifull woman, doing more than the minimum it takes to pass. For whom do we do this!!! Men? Yes. Themselves? Yes. It can be both. Myself, I think I look less manish and more beautiful. I'd say that both things entered consideration when selecting to do FFS.  If my idea of beauty or being female would be to have DD size breasts, so what? It may not be your cup of soup, but so what! There are plenty of women doing so and they are not all bimbos or slaves to men's view; they have their own mind.

My point was not that natural women don't do it as well but that doesn't make them feminine. "That" does not define femininity at all. It just defines how we present ourselves to the world at large. I brought this topic up with a good friend of mine who has a masters degree in women's studies. The answer I was given was it all has to do with circles. Mother earth, round; the moon goddess, round; boobs, round. Masculinity is usually associated with straight, rigid lines. Femininity is more softer and curvy lines. Look at handwriting between the genders. Male handwriting tends to be very sharp and straight lines where as women's is usually curvy and smoother. another key example is facial gestures. Most men are very stoic and straight faced. Women smile constantly and for no reason at all sometimes. If we want to really break it down, look at a penis versus a vagina. One is straight and hard and the other is soft and round.

Where do we get our definitions of what femininity is? If we go by modern media then we are big burly ugly men in dresses. Magazines, TV, movies, and advertisements all glamorize the ideal of being a size 2 with double d boobs. That wasn't the case back a few hundred years ago. Women with some meat on them were the pick of the litter. It meant they were wealthy and healthy since they ate good. There are too many degrees of comparison of one meaning to another when it comes to femininity.

To me it would be the ability to embrace the inner softness of ourselves.

Quote from: Keira on May 24, 2007, 10:03:02 PM

Women's view of themselves is much more complex than that. They...

They???

What makes us feminine is being ourselves, I finally "came out" today in my women's recovery group, in that I discussed my upcoming SRS and some of my transitioning struggles. It was the first time that I talked about my TG issues. It was truly a spiritual experience as the women embraced me and confirmed my womanhood in a way that I could only imagine in the past.

Assuming one really is a woman and not a wannabee (and please I am not implying anyone here fits that derivation) if one just lets her true self emerge, her true feminine self will become evident.

After the group, we all went out for coffee, I brought up some of the problems that we are facing in the co-ed groups (the men try to dominate the group with stupid, off-topic guy bull->-bleeped-<-) turns out I emerged today as not just another woman in the group but as a leader! Gosh, pinch me! I never dreamed that would happen.

And what is really uncanny is that almost every woman felt exactly as I did about the situation with the clueless men. It is kind of scary, sometimes we have doubts about our true womanness, I know I do.

Today, all those doubts were stripped away forever. I tell you, it is an amazing feeling.

The "They", is a stylistic device to create a narrative detachment. Often used in journalism though not often in opinion pieces I admit. Anyway... whatever... You do tend to fixate on the non-sequitur sometimes Melissa :-).

A feminine woman is someone who speaks politely, carries herself well, dresses trendy or chic but never slutty or too revealing. Someone who flirts but doesnt throw herself on men.  Someone with manners and class! but by no means does this suggest that a woman cant have a personality and style and that she cant be herself. A woman can also be feminine when she sticks up for herself in a respectful way (without shouting obscenities), knows how to present herself and lets her personality and strong will shine through.

Quote from: Keira on May 25, 2007, 01:31:29 AM

The "They", is a stylistic device to create a narrative detachment. Often used in journalism though not often in opinion pieces I admit. Anyway... whatever... You do tend to fixate on the non-sequitur sometimes Melissa :-).

Kiera, I can't imagine speaking about what makes a woman feminine and referring to women in the third party plural, unless speaking about a specific group of women. I am not going to crucify you but I think I did you and the group a favor by pointing this out,   and I received a PM from a moderator applauding this post.

I feel it's really vital that we, in every thought and deed, assert our own femininity, if we don't how are we to expect society to accept us as women. It's really irrelevant what we think of femininity in the observation of other women, what counts is how we individually feel, i.e. what makes us feel feminine.

Quote from: Pia on May 25, 2007, 03:03:22 AM
A feminine woman is someone who speaks politely, carries herself well, dresses trendy or chic but never slutty or too revealing. Someone who flirts but doesnt throw herself on men.  Someone with manners and class! but by no means does this suggest that a woman cant have a personality and style and that she cant be herself. A woman can also be feminine when she sticks up for herself in a respectful way (without shouting obscenities), knows how to present herself and lets her personality and strong will shine through.

Hmmm...I must be "hanging out" with masculine women then because the women in my circles including myself use judicious use of "obscenities" to make our points. Nothing like the use of the correct expletive to get one's point across IMNSHO.

I ain't no damn Blanche Dubois, [forget] that!

i see nothing wrong with stating the feminine physical ideal, although id add more curves personally  *shrugs*

doesnt automatically make her pretty, young, and passable, the 3 arnt neceserily congruant :) passibility has no age limit.
leave her alone...

Quote from: Lori on May 22, 2007, 08:37:21 PM
the younger and prettier the reps

When the competition gets going....the tough get very feminine. They work out, get their hair done, boob jobs, and are just drop dead beautiful. What makes them feminine? Competition from other women trying to outdo their beauty. Women have their beauty and they will pull out every trick, tip and fashion idea to outdo the threat. They will act very coy and girly around the male Dr's but when he turns his back, out come her fangs and claws if she senses another drug rep nearby. Its a cut throat industry and these gals are armed to the teeth with femininity.

They?

If I catch one more woman here referring to women in the third person plural, I am going to start making y'all turn in your membership cards. :) :)

I have been following this thread for a while and saw a lot of interesting and sometime contradictory definitions. What might seem feminine (or sexy?) for one might not be for an other.  
So for me a feminine woman is a woman who is at ease with herself. It is expressed in the way she dresses, highlighting her attributes, in the way she moves and deports herself in a fluid, sensuous and gracious manner, the way she smiles, the way her eyes sparles, the way she might throw her head back when laughing, the way she might touch you gently when talking or listening to you. She shines, happy and confident to be herself. It has nothing to do with trying to fit an image imposed by outside expectations. Anyway this is my definition, this is also the way I feel (and I hope I come across) when I feel feminine.

HLLL&R

Maebh

Quote from: melissa90299 on May 25, 2007, 08:06:01 AM

Quote from: Keira on May 25, 2007, 01:31:29 AM

Hmmm...I must be "hanging out" with masculine women then because the women in my circles including myself use judicious use of "obscenities" to make our points. Nothing like the use of the correct expletive to get one's point across IMNSHO.

I ain't no damn Blanche Dubois, forget that!

That is one thing that i have found out after being accepted into the inner circles of womanhood as well. Women use the F word, they talk about sex, and they let their opinions be known. emotions and feelings go into the conversations a lot of time as well. So maybe being able to express emotions without shame or guilt is another aspect of being feminine. This would be a good reason why so many TS women get called "men in dresses." So maybe as a countermeasure to this we end up with TS women who are so over the top feminine in their actions that is almost as if they are an animated character. Is it just typical overcompensation of something for the sake of keeping the male ego in tact?

Next!

Quote from: Maebh on May 25, 2007, 08:17:58 AM
I have been following this thread for a while and saw a lot of interesting and sometime contradictory definitions. What might seem feminine (or sexy?) for one might not be for an other. 

I certainly concur but as a feminist I must say that it is a little disturbing to read that so many of us cling to the patriarchal ideal of femininity.

Quote from: Rachael on May 25, 2007, 08:16:18 AM
i see nothing wrong with stating the feminine physical ideal, although id add more curves personally  *shrugs*

doesnt automatically make her pretty, young, and passable, the 3 arnt neceserily congruant :) passibility has no age limit.
leave her alone...

If we are discussing the matter of passibility in a social setting then yes, most of the superficial BS will get you through. However, when the expected femininity of such portrayal is found not to be there a person is left stigmatized as not passing when someone calls them a "man in a dress"

I do realize that my extremist views may upset or rub some people the wrong way but it the way i view the world around me based upon what i have seen and done.

Quote from: melissa90299 on May 25, 2007, 08:24:05 AM

Quote from: Maebh on May 25, 2007, 08:17:58 AM
I have been following this thread for a while and saw a lot of interesting and sometime contradictory definitions. What might seem feminine (or sexy?) for one might not be for an other. 

I certainly concur but as a feminist I must say that it is a little disturbing to read that so many of us cling to the patriarchal ideal of femininity.

People hold true what they believe is true. Look at organized religion. Only with questioning the world around us can we truly understand why we are the way we are in any circumstance of life.

Renae, your avatar screams femininity as much as any that I have seen here yet you challenge the "accepted" (patrairchal) tenets of femininity. (the Blanche Dubois/Scarlett O'Hara types)

In my drug/alcohol and sexually addicted days, I dated a lot of ->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<-s and all of them claimed that they liked "Tgirls" because they were more feminine than GGs. What they were really saying is that they couldn't handle assertiveness in women and were looking for subservient women, which, thank God, is rare these days.

Needless to say I didn't have much "success" in establishing any kind of a relationship with any of these men. :)

BTW I might comment that this forum seems to have changed a lot in that women here are posting strong views and sometimes controversial ones, which is great, as long as we can agree to disagree civilly, I know that I can be a real bitch especially in my early recovery (66 days clean and sober after 44 years of alcohol and drug use)
but nothing I say here should be taken personally, it's not meant to be, anyway.

Remember, when we are here, we are family, (like that restaurant?) we might bicker and disagree but it doesnt mean we are not a sisterhood.

I want to thank Susan for giving us this opportunity to express our views, I hope we, including myself, can continue to do so in a respectful manner.

Quote from: melissa90299 on May 25, 2007, 08:39:47 AM
Renae, your avatar screams femininity as much as any that I have seen here yet you challenge the "accepted" (patrairchal) tenets of femininity. (the Blanche Dubois/Scarlett O'Hara types)

I am my own woman and do not need the acceptance or approval of a man or anyone for that matter to quantify my being. I am me and I f'n love me.  :D

Quote from: Renae.Lupini on May 25, 2007, 08:42:42 AM

Quote from: melissa90299 on May 25, 2007, 08:39:47 AM
Renae, your avatar screams femininity as much as any that I have seen here yet you challenge the "accepted" (patrairchal) tenets of femininity. (the Blanche Dubois/Scarlett O'Hara types)

I am my own woman and do not need the acceptance or approval of a man or anyone for that matter to quantify my being. I am me and I f'n love me.  :D

Nothing wrong with that? Where are you, do you have any frequent flyer miles?

:):):):):)

I gotta run to my recovery group, should be interesting as I have stirred all the women up to speak out about the men wasting our time with their inappropriate comments in the mixed groups!

I am in northern Virginia.

Quote from: Renae.Lupini on May 25, 2007, 08:42:42 AM
I am my own woman and do not need the acceptance or approval of a man or anyone for that matter to quantify my being. I am me and I f'n love me.  :D

You go girl :)

Quote from: ssindysmith on May 25, 2007, 09:39:05 AM

Quote from: Renae.Lupini on May 25, 2007, 08:42:42 AM
I am my own woman and do not need the acceptance or approval of a man or anyone for that matter to quantify my being. I am me and I f'n love me.  :D

You go girl :)

TY  ;)

Quote from: melissa90299 on May 25, 2007, 08:24:05 AM

Quote from: Maebh on May 25, 2007, 08:17:58 AM
I have been following this thread for a while and saw a lot of interesting and sometime contradictory definitions. What might seem feminine (or sexy?) for one might not be for an other. 

I certainly concur but as a feminist I must say that it is a little disturbing to read that so many of us cling to the patriarchal ideal of femininity.

Exactly, but feminist doesn't have to mean butch either. If a woman looks pretty or desirable because it is the way she feels why should she have to give this up to fit. If she feels free and powerfull in her attractiveness why should she hide her light and radiance under a bushel? Do we need to replace a rigid phalocratic definition of "feminity" by its opposite?  Do we need to throw away the shackles of gender definition to create new norms or forms of limitations to the expression of the feminine ( or the masculine). I for one don't think so, but again I always was and always will be a rebel and a free spirit. >:D

HLLL&R

Maebh 

I am not trying to step on toes with this, but why is that when the word feminist is used it automatically gets a butch man hating denotation put onto it?

Quote from: Renae.Lupini on May 25, 2007, 05:35:30 PM
I am not trying to step on toes with this, but why is that when the word feminist is used it automatically gets a butch man hating denotation put onto it?

Unfortunately, the the most vocal and extreme of any group of people tend to make an impression.

Charlotte

True

Quote from: Renae.Lupini on May 25, 2007, 05:35:30 PM
I am not trying to step on toes with this, but why is that when the word feminist is used it automatically gets a butch man hating denotation put onto it?

Would it have anything to do with strident and vociferous butch man hating activists dismissing and excluding feminine, men loving women as stupid blind cows? Unfortunately at some stage of development of the feminist movement this Stalinist and exclusive vocal minority (Mary Daly, Janice Raymond and others) tried to highjack it and exclude any one who didn't share their vision and analyses. Of course the patriarcal establishment was delighted and gave them all the platforms they needed to preach their distorted message of hate and exclusion. Fortunately others like Nancy Friday or Rosalind Miles amongs them brought back a more inclusive and loving perspective to it.
So a few limelight hungry raving lunatics gave the movement a bad name, but a much greater number have worked diligently to foster understanding and bring longlasting change.
Now, like in all movement for change, in the Feminist movement like on this board, the choice is clear between prejudice and exclusion or understanding and inclusion. I know where I stand on that one.

HLLL&R

Maebh

Quote from: Renae.Lupini on May 25, 2007, 05:35:30 PM
I am not trying to step on toes with this, but why is that when the word feminist is used it automatically gets a butch man hating denotation put onto it?

Because it makes men feel more manly by categorizing us that way.

it isn't only men though that do it. A lot of women stereotype us into that category as well.

steriotypes only change, when we do something about them. I find i get crap from other trans people for not being feminine enough, or being to tomboyish. Well im not here to change me, just my body, Girls Can be feminine even when doing something masculine, or behaving tomboyishly. Femininity, in my eyes, is a presence, not a set of behavioral patterns...

the reason for being called tom-boys is that there is still femininity present. Rock on with your bad self! great example of just being yourself for your own personal happiness.