Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Okay, so I had a friend help me find some pretty amazing clothes to choose from when I'll order my first full female outfit, probably this summer. It was all on Yesstyle.ca, which is Asian clothes. I'm a big fan of Asian things in general, and let's admit it, they have a lot of really nice (and cheap) items. So I was all thrilled and almost ready to order, when I realised that I should get my body measurements to make sure I don't order something that can't possibly fit.

So I bought a mesuring tape, and my shoulders, even though I'm not 100 % sure of the exact measurement because self-measuring them is quite a challenge, at 44 cm = 17.3 in, are way above even the male average for my height (165 cm), forget about women's average... and don't even think about average Asian women, for whom those clothes are tailored in the first place. So even if I'm off by a whooping 5 cm = 1.96 in, it's still hard.

Those clothes averaged 33 cm = 13 in shoulder widths, with a maximum at only 35 cm = 13.8 in, and a minimum at 28(!) cm = 11 in... By looking very randomly at some tops, sometimes in the plus-size section even though I'm neither especially tall nor very fat (well I do find myself fat but my BMI is in the high-end area of healthy weight so I shouldn't need a plus-size in theory), and I did find some close measures that might fit, at around 38 cm = 15 in or 40 cm = 15.7 in, but 1. they are pretty rare, 2. I have yet to see an actual fit and 3. the probability of me finding one that fits and I that I do like is low, especially since there isn't an advanced search function.

So~ after that long introduction, I would like to ask you for advice. Because I'm sort of depressed about this. I was really hoping that I was seeing broad shoulders but they really weren't so bad. And if I'm having trouble find clothes as well... I mean, my friend has shoulders about the same size as mine and says she can wear Large clothes pretty well, but she's 180 cm = 5'11 tall... which means I'd sort of look like a ghost in those long clothes.

1. Do you know of a way to effectively measure my shoulders myself and make sure I have the right measurement? Every guide I saw was measured by someone else (understandable). And I'm talking about a clothing measurement (bone edge to bone edge), eh, not the wall measurements that bodybuilders do.

2. Can you suggest other good clothing websites than Yesstyle.ca? I might find better fitting items if it's not Asian. Of course, it must either be Canadian or ship to Canada for reasonable costs. Oh, and before you mention it, I did hear about Amazon having clothes, however the Canadian store (http://amazon.ca) doesn't. And from the looks of it, the clothes on Amazon.com are expensive and don't give detailed size information to begin with.

3. Do you have tips for fitting clothes on a broad-shouldered but relatively short person? It looks like most members my height or shorter have smaller shoulders as well...

Additional information:

Quote
Shoulders: 44 cm = 17.3 in
Chest: 88 cm = 34.6 in (actually that's the "breast" measurement, but I don't have breasts to speak of)
Waist: 82 cm = 32.3 in (it's actually a little smaller, probably, since I didn't measure it in the morning like I should)
Hips: 93.5 cm = 36.8 in

Height: 165 cm = 65 in = 5'5"
Weight: 65 Kg = 143.3 lb
BMI: 23.88

Man, this post was so much unit conversion. Use the metric system already, United States. D:

I have exactly the same shouder measure as you, but I'm a bit taller (1.74 cm) and slimmer (58 kilos), so they probably look different than yours. I'm quite self-conscious about that, and given that I'd LOVE to wear something that allows me to show them a bit (kind of like Lisa Hannigan with her beautiful clavicles) I pray for HRT to make them a bit smaller, as I have quite a bit of muscle in that area. I have found some really cute dresses on urbanoutfitters.com and anthropologie, amongst others, and you can always try amazon US if you don't mind importing charges and stuff like that. Asus might be expensive, but if you search a little bit you might find online stores that ship to you that you like. Do some reasearch, might be well worth it!


I have done some research and have found out that you are far from being alone in those respects. Check this out: http://caloriecount.about.com/forums/health-support/average-shoulder-width-woman-whats (http://caloriecount.about.com/forums/health-support/average-shoulder-width-woman-whats) 

I also have found out that I might be ectomorphic  ??? I mean, it's really weird that I'm closer to that 34-24-34 utopia than most girls that I know... so, whatever...

I found out after spending too much money on stuff that didn't look good on me that it's important to know your overall body shape. I'm an apple shape, so i have a large upper torso and wide shoulders. Once you know your body shape then it's possible to look for clothes that work with that shape. Clothes you see advertised online are all on stick thin models and do not look good on most everyone else.

When I was obessing about my shoulders and other bits I looked around and found tanners index of androgyny. Its al about proportions and sizes etc.

Umm, I was under the impression that the female average was in the 15-18" range and male was in the 20-22" range.

I think you're interpreting yesstyle's info wrong??

The shoulder measurement on their site basically shows where the sleeves begin. But that's the garment's shoulder length... Usually when you take your shoulder measurement, you measure to the outside of the shoulder... so you would get a longer personal measurement than the garment's measurement even though it would still fit.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fc.ysi.bz%2FAssets%2Fres%2Fimgs%2Fhelp%2Fen%2Fs_tee.gif&hash=9659e9e332b195fd09a1074ca0878a857a6e0cd0)

When I measure just across the top I get 13" but when I measure all the way out to the edge of the shoulder (wrapping around slightly) I get 16-17"... just a thought.

If you're really worried though, avoid sleeves.  :)

Elena G: Urbanoutfitters.com says:

Quote
Due to the Charter of the French Language, we are unable to offer our website to the province of Quebec, at this time. Urban Outfitters continues to improve on its availability globally, and we will be investigating the addition of a bilingual site to accommodate our French-speaking customers.

We value your continued support as a customer and apologize for any inconvenience this may cause. Alternatively, please come visit us!

...I guess the right word is "owned".

As for Anthropologie, it looks a little, well, overpriced... But thanks anyway.

riven1: That's precisely why I liked that they had precise measurements for every part. With a little imagination (and my friend who's really good with fashion), I think I can quite easily figure out what would suit me and what wouldn't.

Siobhan: Could you explain further or give me a link? I couldn't find anything about this.

pretty: Well, I did the measurement from bone to bone, and passing on the neck... which isn't really -total- shoulder width, but rather... exactly where the sleeves begin. As shown in this short video, actually:
Shoulder width (women) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt_55OzVZOE#)
There is a possibility that being my own back, I made a mistake, but I don't think there can be a huge difference... I really did feel for the ends of the bones. I do wish that they're not actually that broad, but that sounds a little too optimistic to me.

Those average widths... I really don't think they're right. Whilst searching for average shoulder widths (which I never got rock-hard info for, but only this page (http://www.thedietdiary.com/knittingfiend/EZsweater/catalogSizeChart.html) as well as another saying that an average healthy woman wore size 8 in the US), I fell on this on a page for male bodybuilders. Mind you, it said to measure by putting their back against a wall and making marks with a ruler put on the side of each shoulder, which is probably, for me, ~5 cm ≈ 2 in more than a clothing measurement like I did:

Quote
That horizontal measurement (which includes both deltoids), in inches and fractions of inches, is your shoulder width.

The average man in the United States is 5-foot 10-inches tal, and weighs 172 pounds. His shoulder width is 18-1/4 inches.

Using that as a starting number, if your shoulder width is approximately 18-1/4 inches . . . then, your shoulder width is AVERAGE or NORMAL.

A little bit goes a long way in shoulder width . . . 20-inch-wide shoulders look significantly broader than average shoulders; 21-inch shoulders will get plenty of attention; 22-inch shoulders will draw stares from almost everyone; 23-inch shoulders are super heroic and will get you a ticket on the front row of Mr. Olympia contests; and 24-inch shoulders are as rare as a 500-pound overhead press.

Source: http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/wider_realman_shoulders (http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/wider_realman_shoulders)

So unless they're really mistaken in their numbers (but as muscle freaks they shouldn't be, right?) I'm probably way over the male average... Especially since the average (American) male is 70 in = 178 cm tall. So adding the ~5 cm of muscle, my shoulder width would be 49 cm = 19.3 in, just above the male average... for men 13 whole centimeters taller than me, that is!

Unless the fact of passing on the back's curve compensates it, in which case I stay at 44 cm = 17.3 in, which, considering my height, is probably a pretty average number for a male.

As for avoiding sleeves... For one, sleeves are useful for, you know, not freezing (I'm constantly freezing) and it would sort of be a shame to buy a nice top only to put one of my ugly sweaters on top. Also, I'm -so- not keen on showing any more skin than necessary.

The outfit I'm considering right now would be cropped pants with a short- or 3/4-sleeved shirt, and that's really as far as I'll get for a first outfit. I hate my shoulders, so I really don't want to show them. Prude and complexed, yep, that's me.

@A:

Hmm, I don't know then. You might just have to bear with being a little big in the shoulder  :) maybe you will just have to let your shoulder fill out the sleeve a little bit, if you want sleeves.

I don't know, just when I google around I find stuff like http://caloriecount.about.com/forums/weight-loss/shoulder-width (http://caloriecount.about.com/forums/weight-loss/shoulder-width) where it seems like the range is not so tiny for women?

Anyway mine are 16" measured like the woman in the video and shoulder width has not been a big problem in fitting... though I do steer clear of things that will make my shoulders look *too* wide, because I do wish they were a bit smaller.

You could maybe look to shop somewhere that offers tall sizes  :)

14 inch shoulders here and even I think I have linebacker shoulders. I think all trans women fear this. :embarrassed:

Quote from: GhostTown11 on June 08, 2012, 04:47:27 PM
14 inch shoulders here and even I think I have linebacker shoulders. I think all trans women fear this. :embarrassed:

Definitely...

Personally, I reassure myself whenever I get worried about those things by comparing to my sister... her shoulders are as wide as mine, same height, same shoe size, all that. So maybe as a cis girl, it would have been the same deal anyway  :D

It's not THAT weird for cis girls to have pretty wide shoulders... at least in contrast to their hips... you see it a lot.

Exactly. And  my hip bones are wider than my shoulders which is weird but at least it's a plus!

Lol, GhostTown, that kind of thing is not even so common in cis females. Just die. XD

Anyway, pretty... Tall sizes, yeah. But I'm not tall. ^^'

Quote from: A on June 08, 2012, 05:05:25 PM
Lol, GhostTown, that kind of thing is not even so common in cis females. Just die. XD

Anyway, pretty... Tall sizes, yeah. But I'm not tall. ^^'

A good idea would be to ask your mom and sister to let you measure their shoulder width. Just tell them you need a point of comparison and what sizes they were since they are your closest female relatives. Oh btw you said that store was Asian right?well I think I remember a teacher telling me that in Japan that for men and women they're clothiers sizing is one less than ours so a small in men is a medium there and a small in womens is a medium there. That could be why they have smaller measurements.

I guess. However I don't live with them and don't actually see them so often, so I might have to ask a clerk. A little embarassing though for some reason. "Hi there measure my shoulders". ^^'

Quote from: A on June 08, 2012, 05:05:25 PM
Lol, GhostTown, that kind of thing is not even so common in cis females. Just die. XD

Anyway, pretty... Tall sizes, yeah. But I'm not tall. ^^'

Ooh *reads old posts*, sorry. I thought you were taller for some reason.  :P

Well, barring all that I'd say... it's all about the cut. No prudish crew or turtle necks!  :)
Maybe like a nice V neck? That's flattering. Is it REALLY cold there?

It's not like stuff isn't gonna fit, it's just not gonna fit perfectly. But that's the case for pretty much every girl out there in some way or another. Your main concern would probably be covering up the appearance of wide shoulders...

Anyway this all speaks to the benefit of being able to try things on in person.  :)

Quote from: GhostTown11 on June 08, 2012, 04:55:49 PM
Exactly. And  my hip bones are wider than my shoulders which is weird but at least it's a plus!

That's lucky :) Apparently mine are 15" across so a little narrower.  :-\

(Heh, I actually said my height twice in the post~ oblivious~)

Uhm, I'd never wear a v-neck; not now anyway. I was looking into boat necks like this.
http://www.yesstyle.com/en/efashion-inset-striped-t-shirt-drape-front-top-pink-one-size/info.html/pid.1030743623 (http://www.yesstyle.com/en/efashion-inset-striped-t-shirt-drape-front-top-pink-one-size/info.html/pid.1030743623)

Well, for now... I just hope I measured wrong.

In any case, do y'all have further suggestions of shopping sites? I barely pass (and only with a coat and scarf). I can excuse girl's jeans with my butt and girl's shoes with my short feet, but a top is hard to pull off. ^^'

Omg I love that shirt! *whips out credit card* and so affordable too. I am going to have fun this summer >:-)

Thief. D:

Oh and pretty, it's not that it's cold. It's actually an average to cold day at 22 °C. I'm just always freezing. ~

I do like their jeans but damn they must make them for girls with a straight shape! 30 inch hips is small even on a boy :p!

I have seen some attractive and cute girls with "manish" builds - small butts and wide shoulders. From the back you'd think that they were a boy. Women truly do come in all shapes and sizes, so learn to work with what you've got, emphasize what's good and hide what's not. The same as all females do, actually.

Google "apple shaped body" to read up on dos and don'ts for our shape.

Quote from: A on June 08, 2012, 06:11:42 PM
(Heh, I actually said my height twice in the post~ oblivious~)

OMG you did  :-X I totally even looked back to check but I have a bad habit of skimming!

riven1: By looking at pictures and descriptions, especially considering that I'm posting with a slightly exaggerated waist measurement (not measured in the morning), still have a good 10 male-pattern kilos of fat (and muscle) to lose, much of it being directly on the waist, and have measured not far into HRT with little to no fat redistribution done... I think I might rather be a big strawberry body type. Well, it appears so, at least.

Because despite those negative factors, and basically having a belt of fat at my waist (ew), the more I've been losing weight these last years (I was at 95 Kg = 209 lb at one point), the more I've been seeing the fact that I have a waist below all that appear.

If my hips gain sufficient volume on top of me losing that misplaced fat, I might actually be more of an hourglass *whistles at the hugely wishful statement*.

But when I look into it, between apples and big strawberries, the difference is slight in terms of clothing suggestions.

By the way, everyone~ I'm still especially keen on receiving more online clothes shop suggestions.
(This was the primary purpose of the thread in fact.)

OMG They have free shipping to Europe too!  ;D

C'est Québécois? Mon dieu! Yeah, Anthropologie is quite expensive but I always try to find stuff on sale. And I didn't know anything about urban outfitters not shipping to Quebec. Shame on them.

As far as I can remember, Zara might be also an expensive option. H&M, Forever21, GAP, I'm sure there has to be more, and you can always try to find stores where you live (Montréal, peut-être?)

Good luck!  ;)

Well, there are stores where I live (which is quite far away from Montréal, heh) but as I said, I'm not yet ready to go in and really shop. Or at least not go full-on. But even so, I really want to have something to wear that I like, at least at home, so the Internet is the way to go.

Thus far, no website except Yesstyle (whoo@those shoulders) seems suitable... And unfortunately, my friend is from Europe and none of the stores she visits will ship overseas. Add to that my crappy research skills, and you get a pretty confusing situation.

Anyway, if anyone else has ideas, I'll be happy. In the mean time, I think I'll figure out a way to get my measurement checked, and then... Well, I don't know, I might just try something from Yesstyle anyway. Maybe, as pretty said, since it's the shoulders, they can stick out a little through the sleeves and it won't be the end of the world. Or maybe I'll find a top with a closer shoulder width to mine.

Your shoulder width isn't as big as you might think. Look at these files from an anthropomorphics site. The army one show the average male shoulder breadth for marines in 1996 is 19.42 inches, and for female marines it's 17.03 inches. And in the female UK firefighter survey the mean bi-deltoid breadth is like 18 inches. I think the people who work in these areas would be bigger and stronger, but still, it just goes to show that 17.3 inches isn't so bad as you might think. You can find the files here.

http://www.humanics-es.com/ADA316646.pdf (http://www.humanics-es.com/ADA316646.pdf)
http://www.humanics-es.com/FireFighterAnthropometry.pdf (http://www.humanics-es.com/FireFighterAnthropometry.pdf)]http://www.humanics-es.com/FireFighterAnthropometry.pdf[/url]

The thing is, those are for all heights combined, right? My shoulders wouldn't be too bad if I were like 10 or 15 centimetres taller, but at my height, it's a little more of a problem.

However, there are good news! My sister called me this week and she said she was -sure- her shoulders were wider than mine... which means that either she has enormous shoulders, either I did the measurement wrong, either she's mistaken. I hope it's the second one.

I'm going to see her this week-end. And we said we would buy me my first girls' clothes. with her trying to make me somewhat pass for the session. Cool, eh? I'll be able to try them on first-hand, too.

I'm excited and scared. Though I'll have to restrict myself... I can't be full time yet, so I need to renew my male wardrobe as well. And since those will pretty much only be worn at home, and probably not for long once my body changes and clothes fit differently... So not too much. :<

Nope you are actually not quite right about assuming it's for all heights combined. The data is divided into percentiles.

I think you said your shoulders are 17.3 inches across and that you are 165cm tall. On that marines data thing for female marines the 60th perecentile for height is 164.5cm and the 60th perecentile for shoulder breadth is 17.25cm. To me that means you are taller than 60 percent of female marines, and that your shoulder breadth is bigger than 60 percent of female marines. Since both are 60th percentile - 164.5cm height and 17.25cm shoulder breadth should pretty much correspond I would think - so again, I don't think you are as broad as you think you are.  Being in the bottom 60percent of all females for those dimensions is really, really lucky I think.

Ah, is that so? Then my sister might be right. And Asians must just be too small for my hopes. Thank you.

But ehm, those measurements are clothing measurements, right? If they're wall measurements, I might be screwed.

Quote from: r22b2 on June 15, 2012, 01:26:10 PM
Nope you are actually not quite right about assuming it's for all heights combined. The data is divided into percentiles.

I think you said your shoulders are 17.3 inches across and that you are 165cm tall. On that marines data thing for female marines the 60th perecentile for height is 164.5cm and the 60th perecentile for shoulder breadth is 17.25cm. To me that means you are taller than 60 percent of female marines, and that your shoulder breadth is bigger than 60 percent of female marines. Since both are 60th percentile - 164.5cm height and 17.25cm shoulder breadth should pretty much correspond I would think - so again, I don't think you are as broad as you think you are.  Being in the bottom 60percent of all females for those dimensions is really, really lucky I think.

Unfortunately you were looking at bideltoid breadth which is going to be wider than a shoulder measurement. The closest measurement in terms of those ones is probably somewhere between interscye 2 (little too small) and bideltoid breadth (little too large).

My interscye 2 was just about average (14.8" ) and my actual shoulder measurement is 16". If you go inbetween the average interscye 2 (14.8 ) and bideltoid breadth (17.05) you get 15.94 in. So.. pretty close.

So I'm gonna stick with saying 16"/40.5cm is average or only slightly above average shoulder width. If you go by that method, 17.3" is somewhere between the 90-95th percentile soo... ~1 in 15 women.

It's not perfect but it's also far from monstrous (keep in mind the difference between that and average is only like an inch, and with clothing you can expect to give or take about an inch from the norm on almost every measurement anyway).

....um, yeah, so, reading too much into it.  :P

As for other places to shop, well that depends on your style? What you like? Online shopping is really spread out.

Um, you could try Uniqlo if you like Asian + ~conservative. They're a Japanese company IIRC but they have a presence in most continents (so probably less of the weird shipping issues people sometimes complain about w/ yesstyle). And imo their selection is more on the modest side.  ;)

Well honestly in general if you're experimenting and sticking to a low price range any big-name north american retailers or labels are going to have online shopping so, there's that too.

Hmm, tomorrow I'm going to see my sister and we'll shop together, as I said. Kowai, kowai. We'll also be able to confirm my shoulder width.

Anyway, for online shopping... Uniqlo "does not offer e-commerce at this time", so no luck either. As for what I like, hmm, well, I can show you the items I have saved in my bookmarks.

* http://www.yesstyle.com/en/pg-beauty-plaid-messenger-bag-off-white-one-size/info.html/pid.1023105502 (http://www.yesstyle.com/en/pg-beauty-plaid-messenger-bag-off-white-one-size/info.html/pid.1023105502)
http://www.yesstyle.com/en/tokyofashion-cropped-pants-khaki-l/info.html/pid.1024744644 (http://www.yesstyle.com/en/tokyofashion-cropped-pants-khaki-l/info.html/pid.1024744644)
* http://www.yesstyle.com/en/tokyofashion-capri-pants-beige-l/info.html/pid.1024093378 (http://www.yesstyle.com/en/tokyofashion-capri-pants-beige-l/info.html/pid.1024093378)
http://www.yesstyle.com/en/tokyofashion-capri-pants-with-lace-sash-gray-l/info.html/pid.1024573130 (http://www.yesstyle.com/en/tokyofashion-capri-pants-with-lace-sash-gray-l/info.html/pid.1024573130)
http://www.yesstyle.com/en/f-dna-inset-double-neck-long-sleeve-top-deep-purple-one-size/info.html/pid.1025162271 (http://www.yesstyle.com/en/f-dna-inset-double-neck-long-sleeve-top-deep-purple-one-size/info.html/pid.1025162271)
http://www.yesstyle.com/en/maymaylu-dreams-inset-striped-hooded-cotton-top-mauve-one-size/info.html/pid.1025627782 (http://www.yesstyle.com/en/maymaylu-dreams-inset-striped-hooded-cotton-top-mauve-one-size/info.html/pid.1025627782)
http://www.yesstyle.com/en/maymaylu-dreams-inset-halter-neck-long-sleeve-cotton-top-green-one/info.html/pid.1025627742 (http://www.yesstyle.com/en/maymaylu-dreams-inset-halter-neck-long-sleeve-cotton-top-green-one/info.html/pid.1025627742)
http://www.yesstyle.com/en/f-dna-inset-plaid-shirt-short-sleeve-top-pink-one-size/info.html/pid.1030432532 (http://www.yesstyle.com/en/f-dna-inset-plaid-shirt-short-sleeve-top-pink-one-size/info.html/pid.1030432532)
http://www.yesstyle.com/en/f-dna-inset-striped-top-drape-front-tee-blue-one-size/info.html/pid.1030463119 (http://www.yesstyle.com/en/f-dna-inset-striped-top-drape-front-tee-blue-one-size/info.html/pid.1030463119)
* http://www.yesstyle.com/en/efashion-inset-striped-t-shirt-drape-front-top-pink-one-size/info.html/pid.1030743623 (http://www.yesstyle.com/en/efashion-inset-striped-t-shirt-drape-front-top-pink-one-size/info.html/pid.1030743623)

* = favourite.

I guess I'd say I sort of like things in that kind of "casual but sort of classy" style. I think I'd also like, you know, very "normal" clothes, too. Jeans, hoodie, t-shirt. But those would be too close to what I currently wear in guy mode and that's not quite the goal.

Heh, I guess the general rule for me is going to be "prude, shy and childish". Or something like that.

That's nice. You'll find new things to add to your style as time goes on and you shop more, or check fashion blogs or whatever. You have to wear what you feel comfortable with, then take it from there. Wait until you really get hooked with shopping, you won't be able to stop. I MEAN it.

Well, yeah, they're nice... But if you take a look at the measurements, it's a bit wrong for me. That's why I'm looking for something else...