Susan's Place Transgender Resources

A lot of times, some of the less passable members, or those who have problems with very masculine features, will tell passable or better-off members that they are very jealous, and that the better-off members should "just be happy because _____"

That kinda got me thinking, what standards should we judge ourselves by?

Don't you think it's fair and totally reasonable for any trans girl to feel sad about their body just because of the fact that they were born trans? Or do you think the eventually passable trans girls have nothing to complain about?

Also, do you judge yourself by cis girl standards or trans girl standards?

Personally I like to go by cis girl standards even if it's just setting me up for feeling bad about myself. But ultimately, I wanna be a girl, not a trans girl.  :)

I go buy cis standards because I feel it would be facetious of me to think less of myself because that would get me depressed. Also, I have a very feminine body and when my hair finishes growing out I know I can put my mind at ease about passing. However, I do think a lot of the younger girls go for a barbie pinup look which is fine but it takes a good deal of work to gett there. That's what I find so great about the older gals is that they are more realistic about just wanting to pass as a woman even if they do not look like a bombshell girl.

A good thread, thanks for posting it.  I just want to look like a woman, period and am positively sure that I will end up looking like one, I have doubts there will be any traces of masculinity left after the hrt does its thing (I'm not masculine at all in any way as it stands). I compare myself to cis females too, not transwomen. 

But I do think its a bad idea to compare yourself to others, might just be me

Of course it's reasonable. Even if there's less bad stuff, there's still bad stuff, and there's nothing wrong with disliking bad stuff.

And I also go by cis standards for the exact same reasons as pretty.

And by the way, whenever I hint at someone's incineration by jealousy, it's meant in a playful manner, eh. I mean, I -am- jealous, but I don't mean any harm for that.

I am going to try not to compare myself to others. I just want to be the real me. If I end up not looking "good" compared to others, that is fine. I basically just want my body to match my mind. I think we are all beautiful in our own way.

As A said, I playfully say I am jealous of other women. It would be nice to look that good, but I am fine with not being gorgeous.

Another way I look at it is I am not the most attractive male, so I probably won't be the most attractive woman. I have learned to live with that.

We find more happiness in "inter-beauty".  How we feel about us. Hey just look at some at Wal-Mart, to improve your self feeling.  We may not all look like models, but with self confidence we will feel happier, and more fullfilled. We have reach a huge goal in our lives. That alone should put a big smile on your face!

 I judge myself by cis-girl standards. The fact that I do below average on those standards means that I should alter myself so that I do better-than-average. This, however, requires a lot of patience of me, as getting the money together will take some time.

In the meanwhile, I feel very jealous for those who don't have to wait or spend money, because it means that aspect of their life is easier and quicker.

I don't judge myself by others.  Girls do that when they are younger.  20-somethings do that.  Older women do that.  And by judging yourself by others is a good way to destroy your self-esteem.

Judge yourself by your own character.  Be a good person.  Love others as you would yourself.

Many years ago I had a self-esteem issue.  Looked to masculine, beard shadow, thinning hair.  I was close to suicide.  Then a thought rumbled through my head.


It was then I realized that I am beautiful.  From the inside.  I just let that shine through and the rest took care of themselves.

After reading some of the response I felt like saying: "what cis standards are you talking about?"

Have you been to Walmart recently? Lot of cis standards to chose from?

Quote from: peky on June 08, 2012, 07:33:12 PM
After reading some of the response I felt like saying: "what cis standards are you talking about?"

Have you been to Walmart recently? Lot of cis standards to chose from?

My best "standards" come from what I know of high school and college girls in my area and at my age. So, I imagine these standards are usually based off of age and occupation. If you're a 21-year-old student, then you compare yourself to students near your age.

Besides, Wal-mart is renowned for having strange creatures in it :P

Thanks Ms O'B for this: " And by judging yourself by others is a good way to destroy your self-esteem." Too, too true.

Besides which, why would I want to lower my standards so far? ;-).

Nikki

Quote from: Ms. OBrien on June 08, 2012, 07:28:13 PM
I don't judge myself by others.  Girls do that when they are younger.  20-somethings do that.  Older women do that.  And by judging yourself by others is a good way to destroy your self-esteem.

Judge yourself by your own character.  Be a good person.  Love others as you would yourself.

Many years ago I had a self-esteem issue.  Looked to masculine, beard shadow, thinning hair.  I was close to suicide.  Then a thought rumbled through my head.

"What if you were born female and still had these problems?"

It was then I realized that I am beautiful.  From the inside.  I just let that shine through and the rest took care of themselves.

idk if this is wat u meant by judging urself to other people but i compare myself to every single girl i see to see if im prettier than them and u r so right that it makes ur self esteem so low cause i have the lowest self asteem ever i mean i have the body of a girl except  i dont have a vagina yet but i still dont think im pretty enough. yall are gonna think im crazy but i wanna be perfect i wanna look the prettier than any girl i see and if i see a girl thats prettier than me i changed something about how i look to make me prettier. ik im crazy

Quote from: pretty on June 08, 2012, 05:40:20 PM
That kinda got me thinking, what standards should we judge ourselves by?

I think we should judge ourselves by what we can cope with when we look in the mirror, and what makes it possible to live our lives. Both are pretty complex and require more than a picture or 3.

I am not a fan of the "do I pass" threads. Passing is that thing that happens when you walk out the door.

QuoteDon't you think it's fair and totally reasonable for any trans girl to feel sad about their body just because of the fact that they were born trans? Or do you think the eventually passable trans girls have nothing to complain about?

I think it's totally apples and oranges. A passable trans girl can experience more dysphoria over their body than an unpassable one. I've met girls who are totally fine with how they look even though they are visibly trans. That's cool for them. Doesn't make my dysphoria better.

On the other hand I think it is important for those of us who have it to recognize our privilege in being passable. It does make my life incredibly easier, and pretending like it doesn't would be disingenuous and dismissive of the difficulties others encounter.

QuoteAlso, do you judge yourself by cis girl standards or trans girl standards?

I don't think I really do either of those. I judge what I'm comfortable with based on my dysphoria.

And I judge my passability based on the reactions of people who are unaware of my trans status. Or rather I used to.

Quote from: peky on June 08, 2012, 07:33:12 PM
After reading some of the response I felt like saying: "what cis standards are you talking about?"

Have you been to Walmart recently? Lot of cis standards to chose from?

LOL.

There is a poem, that I actually first heard on the radio in the early 1970's.  It is called Desiderata, and it was written in the 1920's by Max Ehrmann.  (It is no longer under copyright.)

    Go placidly amidst the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story.

    Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexatious to the spirit. If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain or bitter; for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.

    Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. Keep interested in your own career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.

    Exercise caution in your business affairs; for the world is full of trickery. But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals; and everywhere life is full of heroism.

    Be yourself. Especially, do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment it is as perennial as the grass.

    Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth. Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.

    Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here.

    And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should. Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labours and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul. With all its shams, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful.

    Strive to be happy.

When I was younger, the key line in the poem was:

If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain or bitter; for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.

Today, this passage resonates more with me:

Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth. Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.

We should all have realistic goals, and the goals for one person need not be the goals for the next.  Nor should they be.

Desiderata is one of my favourite poems. :) There is a lot of wisdom in it.

For me it's more this:

Quote from: Jamie D on June 09, 2012, 12:09:36 AM
Go placidly amidst the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story.

Many cis-girls use the "Barbie" standard of beauty, and they pay the price for it.

If you don't like something about yourself (brow ridge, 5 o'clock shadow, etc) learn techniques to minimize or eliminate it, and achieve those as best as possible.

No one is perfect (although a few might come close), so just be the best you can be and be happy be content.

no matter when you transitioned you will always envy others if it's part of your personality to do so.

Quote from: Dale on June 08, 2012, 06:46:50 PM
We find more happiness in "inter-beauty".  How we feel about us. Hey just look at some at Wal-Mart, to improve your self feeling.  We may not all look like models, but with self confidence we will feel happier, and more fullfilled. We have reach a huge goal in our lives. That alone should put a big smile on your face!

Very well said Dale!

My "Standard" for judging myself, that I share with others, is to look around you the next time you are waiting in line at the grocery store. That is where "Real" women are found.

It may be a trans platitude but I do believe passing is 90% attitude, a good part of which comes with self confidence.

Comparing myself to other girls cis or not generally makes me feel like total crap.
Looking at my closest female relatives is even worse, they are totally gorgeous and stunning, and I just look like an ugly male version cos testosterone has ruined me  :'(
Im trying hard now to have a healthier attitude towards all that before it totally destroys me.

Quote from: Siobhan on June 09, 2012, 08:01:46 AM
Comparing myself to other girls cis or not generally makes me feel like total crap.
Looking at my closest female relatives is even worse, they are totally gorgeous and stunning, and I just look like an ugly male version cos testosterone has ruined me  :'(
Im trying hard now to have a healthier attitude towards all that before it totally destroys me.

I feel exactly the same way, Siobhan. It's easy to say 'just be yourself' and 'what's inside is important' but not so easy to actually put those attitudes into practice.

In direct response to the OP's question, I'm not even sure what one could possibly use as a standard for cis-gendered or trans-gendered women. There's just way too much variation. I think it is perfectly fair for any member of the trans community to feel sad about their body, regardless of wether they pass or not since the two really have nothing to do with each other.

I understand that this thread is about appearance and how it relates to self-image, but keep in mind that self-image is so much more than just that. While there are plenty of measurable aspects that make up self-image like height, weight, etc. there are also those all those intangible aspects too. It's not only about what you look like, but how you truly see yourself, your personality, what kind of person you think you are, and how much you think of yourself. I realize that this is really the ideas of self-concept, but its important.

My opinion is that there isn't any one standard that we should judge ourselves by. What works for me probably doesn't work for everyone. While a yardstick may give us a direct way to compare ourself to others, there is so much that is lost reducing your image into that standard. What works for me as far as judging myself is really wether or not I am living to my morality and personal values, not my appearance. I won't pretend that I'm not comfortable with my appearance now, but I wasn't always and I actually adopted this mindset well before transitioning and I was incredibly upset about my appearance. It's your self image though, use whatever standard works for you, and by works I really mean something that at the end of the day you can use to bring yourself up, not take yourself down. You have to be ok with being you, especially if you want others to be ok with it

Quote from: JoanneB on June 09, 2012, 06:47:44 AM
Very well said Dale!

My "Standard" for judging myself, that I share with others, is to look around you the next time you are waiting in line at the grocery store. That is where "Real" women are found.

It may be a trans platitude but I do believe passing is 90% attitude, a good part of which comes with self confidence.

Not platitude at all, you are right on Joanne !!!

I call "changing your attitude," "Releasing you inner female." What I meant by that is -at its essence-  think "I am a female," feel "I am a female," the magic then happens thinking-plus-feeling female makes you "project" your self as a female; your demeanor and the "energy" you send is female. This "attitude" is very powerful, it makes other people override their own physical perception. For example, they may see your male physic, but your attitude is so female that they unconsciously override their own eyes and accept you as a female.

Quote from: Beth Andrea on June 09, 2012, 01:56:29 AM
Many cis-girls use the "Barbie" standard of beauty, and they pay the price for it.

Yes. Me, too!

Barbie~~

Quote from: Venus-Castina on June 09, 2012, 08:51:15 AM
I don't compare my body to those of cisgirls because it is an unreachable standard.
As irrational as it may sound, a dark part of me is terribly jealous of transgirls who have a convincing appearance, especially the young transitioners because they can make a fresh start in which neither past or looks will hinder them. Looking in the mirror then makes me feel very depressed and hateful towards myself for not starting at a younger age.

One positive thing of me, as transgender or transsexual whaterever, is that I am still very interested in fashion and outer appearance. Most of women at my age (late 40s) do not care so much for their outer appearance, including proper etiquette. Especially in this country, they are jokingly called "the third sex" as they are more aggressive than men.

Young cis women are just for my reference, not for my standard. I learn fashion trends and tips from beautiful women in the street, but I am not so much jealous of them. Here my height alone attract their attention, and most of my female colleagues and friends openly praise my body shape. For example, today I go shopping just after running exercising, wearing athletic tights. I could feel the jealous eyes of women regardless of their age.

I am just jealous of women, simply because they are biolgical women. I can look more beautiful than most of them, but I am any way a biological man, which can not be negated even by SRS. That is the most painful fact to me. But I do not wish to be born woman, because the society is still patriarchical and women should live with unfair treatments. As others said, I just to enjoy my unique appearance and inner mind set. My colleagues and friends are generally supportive of me, and I think I am a lucky person.

Barbie~~

Quote from: barbie on June 09, 2012, 09:52:18 AM
One positive thing of me, as transgender or transsexual whatever, is that I am still very interested in fashion and outer appearance. Most of women at my age (late 40s) do not care so much for their outer appearance, including proper etiquette. Especially in this country, they are jokingly called "the third sex" as they are more aggressive than men.

Young cis women are just for my reference, not for my standard. I learn fashion trends and tips from beautiful women in the street, but I am not so much jealous of them. Here my height alone attract their attention, and most of my female colleagues and friends openly praise my body shape. For example, today I go shopping just after running exercising, wearing athletic tights. I could feel the jealous eyes of women regardless of their age.

I am just jealous of women, simply because they are biological women. I can look more beautiful than most of them, but I am any way a biological man, which can not be negated even by SRS. That is the most painful fact to me. But I do not wish to be born woman, because the society is still patriarchal and women should live with unfair treatments. As others said, I just to enjoy my unique appearance and inner mind set. My colleagues and friends are generally supportive of me, and I think I am a lucky person.

Barbie~~

Very poignant and truthful post Barbie. I can see you are a real Lady. I am in my 50's and like you, I am constantly keeping with the high fashion. I do not see any female (genetic or not) as superior or better than me in any way because i simply do not compare with anybody including the males. I just go on with my life, and let other people draw their own conclusion as to who I am.

Personally, I do not care what other think of me, after all your "reputation" is just what other believe they know about you...

...and the end, your honor -which is what really matters- is but "a little gift you give yourself"

A lot of interesting opinions...

Maybe it's that us younger girls are more concerned with fitting in and finding "a place." There's a lot of pressure with cis girls who are just coming fresh out of a teenage girl lifestyle and us being in the same place socially but not having that, and also not having yet had the time and support and resources to perfect our look and really explore what styles we love on ourselves. :)

Whereas the older girls already have a social and maybe even professional place, they're just trying to be more of themselves within it.

It probably does have a lot to do with age... even if we pass better we may just naturally be more self-conscious about how we compare to other girls.  :P

That was the trend I was picking up on, anyway, with myself included  :)

I believe all humans are insecure and the ones that are the most have been the ones striking out at humble little me (and others like me) trying to convince me that I AM actually the one with the problem.  It took me 30 years to figure out that I like myself in most respects and always did while at the same time realising just how much many supposedly confident, everyday people hate themselves and their appearance.  It also took me that long to stop being consumed by self-consciousness including looking at everyone I walked past on the street to see if they thought I was presenting anything to criticize.  And this was all as a genetic male.  Upon looking back over my life I took comfort in discovering my tg at 35 because I had to achieve this peace with myself first.  I also can't imagine having transitioned as a shy child and made it alive through the torture-test of school peers and the craziness of pubescent females, all while carrying secret male parts.  My puberty was tough enough as is.

I find it facinating that women are jealous of me for my slender, non-curvy figure/high metabolism and long eyelashes even though these are not really typically feminine traits (and also don't make them sexually attracted to me).  It's a really weird feeling to be complimented as a man on an ideal that they actually want for themselves especially when it seems to be at odds with thousands of years of natural selection by genetics and men's partnering preferences.  By this experience it appears at the same time that many transwomen aspire to an ideal that cis women are trying to throw away.  It causes me great confusion that many cis women feel they will be more feminine by becoming more androgynous like me and many transwomen feel they will become more feminine by attaining a cartoon extreme that most cis women are naturally not.

Everyone has their own idea of personal beauty and also what makes others beautiful.  Chances are pretty good that most of us will be our own harshest critics.  Personally I dislike the (few) parts of me that are typically male because I never aspired to the normal masculine ideal.  I really would have liked to have been accepted by the world as just a different 'flavour' of male but have come to understand that I'm actually not much male anyway and that I won't be accepted or understood in general in that role.  In accepting my body and my personality for what it is, completely ignoring definitions, I realised that I would fit into the societal structure best as a woman.  In my case I value my androgynous/feminine-leaning traits and am attracted to androgynous/masculine-leaning women.  I will be content with my appearance so long as I don't appear as a totally obvious 'fake' to the general population.  I think my genuineness and comfort in personality will matter far more in this respect than how 'feminine' any one person may judge me, trans or otherwise.  I am very lucky for the 'unusual' and somewhat neutral beauty I have and it would pain me if anyone was overly jealous of that.  For any of you that have had even one successful/intimate relationship in your life at any stage, I would sell my soul to be you.  Don't ever forget for one second how precious that is over anything you might look like.

A little playful jealousy on this forum is no problem.  I revel in the symmetry between this and overheard conversations amongst genetic females.  Congradulations - you're all women!!!

Quote from: pebbles on June 09, 2012, 03:52:41 AM
no matter when you transitioned you will always envy others if it's part of your personality to do so.

Hi Five!


Now lets play a game of spot the woman who's name used to be Bob! I bet it's not the one you think it is.

And don't worry, I have permission to use the photo that of the young woman in question who's name used to be Bob!

contestant number 1
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.femininebeauty.info%2Fimages%2Fmarisa.miller.5.jpg&hash=732d7ebefece7a2a66187b0f1da2b6920c5ff946)

contestant number 2
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.femininebeauty.info%2Fi%2Fu07.argentina.jpg&hash=26fc1e67094d874f8b13a5b77bbb87c230dfc8ae)

contestant number 3
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.femininebeauty.info%2Fi%2Fu07.brazil1.jpg&hash=335a5f862e23da04a9ec8f5f3b58488ad419d5ff)

contestant number 4
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm8.staticflickr.com%2F7214%2F7354979764_fbb1a9c7e9_z.jpg&hash=448afc98811019ffdc2b85d5b2ec263466999458)

contestant number 5
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net%2Fhphotos-ak-ash3%2Fc0.0.403.403%2Fp403x403%2F600472_367888183265463_1030618876_n.jpg&hash=63a255c6dba7ea98f921465b8d70900d45e291c7)

contestant number 6
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-aVeHEYvDShg%2FTwUZFyH5WWI%2FAAAAAAAASWQ%2FNhzcAGIeZbc%2Fs1600%2F00.jpg&hash=2b9c5bdc702a0173358bae250fcb9623d8449522)

Hmmmmmmmmmm.    Well Hell_Girl, For some reason number 4 looks familiar.  Gee I wonder where I have seen her.

Quote from: Ms. OBrien on June 09, 2012, 02:42:04 PM
Hmmmmmmmmmm.    Well Hell_Girl, For some reason number 4 looks familiar.  Gee I wonder where I have seen her.

Yeah unfortunately it doesn't really work for me since I've at least been around here that long  :P

Xell since i joined Susans a year or more ago i learnt a lot and realised i can't help but only compare myself to cis girls and that most of the girls here do the same for the most part

Quote from: pretty on June 09, 2012, 03:44:06 PM
Yeah unfortunately it doesn't really work for me since I've at least been around here that long  :P

She does doesn't she ;)

Anyway the point I was making was that there's no point living a life measuring yourself against a percieved notion of bueaty...tis a wast of a life better spent living. And that women come in all shapes and sizes and that a lot of what many T folk take to be soley masculine features are the result of genetics not the action of hormones.

Number 1? something about the forehead but I might be wrong?

You can't see the faces in 4 and 5 properly so it's impossible to say which one out of 6, if indeed it is just one.

Quote from: pretty on June 09, 2012, 12:25:29 PM
Maybe it's that us younger girls are more concerned with fitting in and finding "a place." There's a lot of pressure with cis girls who are just coming fresh out of a teenage girl lifestyle and us being in the same place socially but not having that, and also not having yet had the time and support and resources to perfect our look and really explore what styles we love on ourselves. :)

I can personally affirm that trying to compare myself to other 20ish women when I was in my 20's was a sure way to derail transition, twice. It totally killed what little self confidence I was able to muster up venturing out into the real world.

There was sort of a positive aspect, and a totally questionable one at that, that came from those two aborted attempts. It helped to reinforce my denial of being a TS. I had a firm belief that I could never make it out in the real world without furthering a life filled with abuse for being different. I settled on being just the occasional CD for stress relief. For 30 years that was my "Normal" life preserver or reality check when thoughts wondered towards The Dark Side.

Without that unyielding belief all the other diversions and distractions I filled my life with would not have been anywhere near effective in my quest to lead a somewhat successful and normal male life. However, it was one hell of a kick in the emotional ass lasting several months when I realized just the opposite is now very very true.

# 2 ?

I suspect I have a slightly different aim from many others, at least as far as my looks go.. All I want is to look like a female member of my family.. And given that genetics have not been all that kind to my family, that's not as hard as I thought it would be.. Somewhere along the way I've realised that I am actually attractive, at least to some.

I'm a great people watcher and something I've realised from my observations is that women come in all sorts of shapes, colours, etc etc.. Am I better looking than some women? Sure.. But there are also a bunch that are better looking than I am.

Quote from: JoanneB on Yesterday at 07:47:44 am

QuoteIt may be a trans platitude but I do believe passing is 90% attitude, a good part of which comes with self confidence.

I agree 100%, Joanne..

Quote from: peky on June 09, 2012, 10:19:39 AM
Very poignant and truthful post Barbie. I can see you are a real Lady. I am in my 50's and like you, I am constantly keeping with the high fashion. I do not see any female (genetic or not) as superior or better than me in any way because i simply do not compare with anybody including the males. I just go on with my life, and let other people draw their own conclusion as to who I am.

Personally, I do not care what other think of me, after all your "reputation" is just what other believe they know about you...

...and the end, your honor -which is what really matters- is but "a little gift you give yourself"

Yes, Peky. It is poignant, but all of human lives have been. Even the Chinese king, Qin Shi Huang, desperately seeked the elixir of life, after conquering all of the mainland China. At that ancient time, he was the most powerful and rich person in the world, but still he could not be satisfied with his life.

We are imperfect and mortal, and I believe TS is just an example of our imperfection.

My preferred fashion style is juniors' or 20's. In big cities like Seoul, I can easily find women with grace and fashion sense, and I learn from them. Their actual height is not so tall, but they can make it look tall and slim. Also, their wearing makeup is adorable. Korean college girls are infamous for their wearing makeup and spike heels like professional entertainers in TV. A problem is that nearly all college girls now try to catch up TV stars. Nowadays, hot pants and gladiator heels have been a trend.

What if a girl of 200 pound weight and 5'2" height is wearing gladiator heels? At my college, located in a small city, there are bunch of teenager girls.  Frankly speaking, I am sick of watching thick and short legs of those girls in the campus. I just wish the fashion trend will change to long pants next year.

However, I sometimes chat with those college sutdents on beauty and makeup.

Barbie~~

Quote from: Hell_Girl on June 09, 2012, 01:24:15 PM
Hi Five!


Now lets play a game of spot the woman who's name used to be Bob! I bet it's not the one you think it is.

And don't worry, I have permission to use the photo that of the young woman in question who's name used to be Bob!

/snip

Welcome back Alice! Hope things are going well!

<3 Liv