Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Greetings everyone!

After 2 months of researching science and talking with people here and on other forums, looking at various websites, watching documentaries and spending time in constant prayer I still have an issue that's tugging at my heart.

Some of you know that off and on I have been dealing with my identity, spending much time in suppression, back and forth about how I feel about
issues, taking tests finally to see if I am intersexed in some way just to see if it would explain it all. I have come to a place mentally and spiritually where I can feel comfortable about being either intersexed and/or transgender. I have seen the science to support all of this. I have come to know that the bible does not speak out about being either of these things. For me personally I can be at peace with that.

Still though when I try to wrap my head around the idea of orientation, while I hear a lot of people saying they are also "born that way" and a few have said "God does not judge" I still can't get past this small still voice inside my head and heart that says this is still wrong.

There is not as much science about your orientation vs being intersexed or transgender. The fact that are 6 questionable verses in the bible about an orientation leaves me to pause and consider. I have gone to many websites and listened to many sermons, including wouldjesusdiscriminate.org

It takes a few times to hear these audio sermons and the written ones and have it make sense. Even after hearing all the evidence, why do I still feel guilty about entertaining that idea? Why do I still feel like I would be separated from God and loose my salvation if I accept that final part?

The fact that some people say hormones can change orientation, the fact that some have said they were heterosexual and then decided they were homosexual, that some choose to be, that some experiment and then go back.

Sorry there is still not a clear answer for me here. Eternity is an awful long time to be separated from God. Please do not respond in this thread and tell me it does not matter and that I should just do what I feel is good, because things that I know for sure are sins can also "feel" good

This is the last area of humanity I need to understand.

I think the last place anyone should be looking for help and guidance related to matters of sexuality are religious texts written centuries ago. It will leave you feeling conflicted, hurt and confused, and you will not find a satisfactory resolution. I could say a lot more on this, but I fear I would be breaking forum rules.

Sexual orientation is not a choice. I don't choose to be sexually attracted to women, I just am. I don't choose to dislike the taste of vodka, I just do. People can experiment with their sexuality and try things they might not normally do, but that in itself is not 'becoming homosexual'. Homosexuality is not 'wrong' in any sense. The guilt you are feeling is a consequence of things which were societal norms 2000 years ago but which no longer apply because the world is now a very different place and in many respects society has moved on. I can't say more without insulting your beliefs so I'll have to leave it there.

Quote from: ShawnToShawn on June 09, 2012, 07:52:11 AM
Greetings everyone!

1) there is not as much science about your orientation vs being intersexed or transgender. The fact that are 6 questionable verses in the bible about an orientation leaves me to pause and consider.

2) The fact that some people say hormones can change orientation, the fact that some have said they were heterosexual and then decided they were homosexual, that some choose to be, that some experiment and then go back.

I will not address the religion part of your post as I am not qualified and my response would be taken as offensive. So I will live that part to the resident specialists in bible interpretation.

1) As far as the scientific part of your post you are totally wrong my dear S2S. Research on the biology of sexual orientation is at least 10 years ahead of the research on the biology of GID. Almost all the techniques that have been used to discover the biological causes of GID were pioneered and/or first employed in sexual orientation research. Please follow this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexually_dimorphic_nucleus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexually_dimorphic_nucleus) to learn a sort of layman summary on the matter at hand.

2) I found this statement terribly offensive. Nobody chooses their sexual orientation.To make a long story short, some people (TG/TS) may have had an intrauterine mishap that renders their brain "sexual orientation" center susceptible to an hormonal effect, and thus when exposed to estradiol (MTF) or testosterone (FTM) their sexual orientation changes. This is purely a biological effect and NOT a voluntary choice.

The choices are made when you act on desire. For example, I know this homosexual catholic priest that live all his life never acting on his sexual desires, but he die as an homosexual as his desires to have sex with a man never left him, that is until he died.

So if there is a sin on been homosexual or transgender, and since we cannot change them, then it follows we die as we were born, unless of course the hormones change your brain. You can chose not express your ->-bleeped-<- or homosexuality but that does not change you at all, it just condemns to living a LIE, lying to yourself and to the rest of humanity. IMOHO you are refusing to be the way your creator made you.

Ok i can see why a person can be in suppression over being homosexual and even have children and kids and then later come out of suppression, this I can see, what I cannot see though is why some folks have just woke up one day and "decided" they were homosexual. I need to explain why this actress Cynthia Nixon said this:

Quote"Why can't it be a choice? Why is that any less legitimate? It seems we're just ceding this point to bigots who are demanding it, and I don't think that they should define the terms of the debate. I also feel like people think I was walking around in a cloud and didn't realize I was gay, which I find really offensive. I find it offensive to me, but I also find it offensive to all the men I've been out with."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/23/cynthia-nixon-wit-being-gay_n_1223889.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/23/cynthia-nixon-wit-being-gay_n_1223889.html)


This is just one example, I already remember reading about a womens basketball player saying things along the same train of thought. I cannot remember her name but she had stated she also "chose".  This confusion over choice does not help.

Quotepeky: I found this statement terribly offensive. Nobody chooses their sexual orientation.To make a long story short, some people (TG/TS) may have had an intrauterine mishap that renders their brain "sexual orientation" center susceptible to an hormonal effect, and thus when exposed to estradiol (MTF) or testosterone (FTM) their sexual orientation changes. This is purely a biological effect and NOT a voluntary choice.

I am not trying to offend you and read above, cynthia-nixon says its offensive to her that it cannot be a choice.

QuoteCynthia Nixon "I gave a speech recently, an empowerment speech to a gay audience, and it included the line 'I've been straight and I've been gay, and gay is better.' And they tried to get me to change it, because they said it implies that homosexuality can be a choice. And for me, it is a choice. I understand that for many people it's not, but for me it's a choice, and you don't get to define my gayness for me. A certain section of our community is very concerned that it not be seen as a choice, because if it's a choice, then we could opt out. I say it doesn't matter if we flew here or we swam here, it matters that we are here and we are one group and let us stop trying to make a litmus test for who is considered gay and who is not."

Her viewpoint makes my mind boggle, as I know she is not the only one who as said this before, If her theroy is true, and if it is a choice, then I have nothing to defend myself with.

I don't know what area of christian back ground you have but those I came out of see all of us as the same. I try to expain but they turned a deaf ear to my words so to that I say I did not want to be judge by them but I knew i was going to be. I am a homosexual to them just wanting to change my sex to feel okay with being with men. as far as being bisexual I may not have ever been confused about my own sexuality if they did not have me thinking I only wanted to change genders to be with men. I am married to a woman and as I pass in the future if we choose to be together we will be seen as lesbians. I understand all three of these points I am seen as gay every where I go yet live with my wife who does not want to be seen as a lesbian. My cuosin is gay and he is a christian he does not practice homosexuality but the gay never went away for him. He feels that being with a woman would be wrong only because he could not love her truthfully so he is alone. This is how I see it, I am LBGT. I understand all these. I'm going to show these people the same that I wish for myself not to be judged. God grace goes past what is seen or understood to be right or wrong.

Jesus was judged, condemned, crucified for being himself that is all he is expacting of me to do even if I am condemned for it. I love you sister. Don't leave off "mercy and truth." I too have done all the searching through the bible and science.

Quote from: JJ on June 09, 2012, 08:20:35 AM
I think the last place anyone should be looking for help and guidance related to matters of sexuality are religious texts written centuries ago. It will leave you feeling conflicted, hurt and confused, and you will not find a satisfactory resolution. I could say a lot more on this, but I fear I would be breaking forum rules.

Sexual orientation is not a choice. I don't choose to be sexually attracted to women, I just am. I don't choose to dislike the taste of vodka, I just do. People can experiment with their sexuality and try things they might not normally do, but that in itself is not 'becoming homosexual'. Homosexuality is not 'wrong' in any sense. The guilt you are feeling is a consequence of things which were societal norms 2000 years ago but which no longer apply because the world is now a very different place and in many respects society has moved on. I can't say more without insulting your beliefs so I'll have to leave it there.

Very well put JJ.

Re: identity, and how it's scientifically supported. I'm trans. I'm queer. I'm part of a multiple system, which means there's more than one person in my body-this is pathologized as multiple personality disorder/dissociative identity disorder, even though it's not actually a mental illness. I'm an otherkin, which means that I don't identify as human. I'm autistic. I was born all of these things. Nobody knows for sure what causes any of them, but they're all inborn situations. They're all pretty damn real, and they're not stuff I feel like I need to justify to anybody. (Hell, I'm a queer/trans liberationist anarchist.)

QuoteStealthy : I'm an otherkin, which means that I don't identify as human. I'

  ;D Oh that's totally normal to me, I am actually half alien, it just does not show up on any tests we have here on earth. Of course I made the mistake of telling a doctor this along with other things when I was 11 years old


I removed a quotation referring to a deleted comment, and I deleted the response to that quotation.

i dont know , im not a christian nor do i believe in any of the christian beliefs heaven hell etc, but even if they were true id rather go to hell if it meant i had to pretend to be something im not in order to go to heaven

I understand this a support site, but I draw the line at veiled homophobia.

Okay, enough with the in-fighting.

Quote from: Terms of Service
10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.  This includes but is not limited to:

•Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term
•Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more legitimate, deserving, or more real than any others

...

15. Items under discussion shall be confined to the subject matter at hand, members shall avoid taking the other users posts personally, and/or posting anything that can reasonably be construed as a personal attack.

Thread locked.

In case anyone is wondering why Sephirah invoked Rule #10, I edited out some offensive comments on this thread. And while I'm here, I might as well put in my two cents' worth.

Quote from: peky on June 09, 2012, 08:34:51 AM
2) I found this statement terribly offensive. Nobody chooses their sexual orientation.

I have met people who proudly claim that they have chosen their orientation. And I've had more than one conversation with such people about how offended and angry they are when someone else tells them that they can't have made such a choice. Maybe they're just deluding themselves, or maybe there IS an element of choice for some people. Me, I was born this way. I tried to choose to be bi, and I failed. Other people? I'm not so sure, and I don't think that anyone on the planet is qualified to state that no one else has any choice.

Quote from: peky on June 09, 2012, 08:34:51 AMYou can chose not express your ->-bleeped-<- or homosexuality but that does not change you at all, it just condemns to living a LIE, lying to yourself and to the rest of humanity. IMOHO you are refusing to be the way your creator made you.

Thank you for phrasing this as an opinion. I see so many LGBT people struggling with different views of how they should be and how they think God wants them to be. I feel that it IS a matter of one's own opinion/belief. Only the person in question can decide what is right.

I have unlocked this thread since it had a 24 hour cooldown. Keep posts on this thread to issues. Don't get personal. Try not to get upset at something someone else posts. If you feel a post crosses the line again feel free to report the messages in question.

Who cares if it's a choice or not to be gay. That misses the point that homosexuality is a natural phenomenon and is widely visible amongst nonhuman animals. And even if it wasn't human animals do lots of things non-human animals don't. Let us just let others love who they wish as long as it's concentual.

I guess my main fear is that, why do I still feel guilty about entertaining that idea? Why do I still feel like I would be separated from God and loose my salvation if I accept that final part?

because that is what you were taught.

Quote from: LordKAT on June 11, 2012, 12:19:52 AM
because that is what you were taught.

Ok if thats all it is, then does anyone have suggestions on how to get rid of the guilt?

Quote from: ShawnToShawn on June 11, 2012, 12:27:13 AM
Ok if thats all it is, then do have any suggestions on how to get rid of the guilt?

Free yourself from your faith.

Quote from: niamh on June 11, 2012, 12:36:39 AM
Free yourself from your faith.

Humans have a huge propensity for faith. Humans can, also,channel faith. Humans choose where their faith goes. Humans can't quit faith (never seen it happen) but we can decide where to direct it.

Retrain yourself. Many things taught to us as a child are in error, either due to out right lying, the teacher being ignorant, or a change in interpretation. Review what it is you 'know' from the bible and anything else that increases your guilt. Search for true meaning or interpretation, or updated information.

Feel what you want.... but what you don't understand is the conflict with your soul may be the real God telling you what's right isn't necessarily what was taught to you by other people...

Quote from: LordKAT on June 11, 2012, 12:46:43 AM
Retrain yourself. Many things taught to us as a child are in error, either due to out right lying, the teacher being ignorant, or a change in interpretation. Review what it is you 'know' from the bible and anything else that increases your guilt. Search for true meaning or interpretation, or updated information.

Quote from: niamh on June 11, 2012, 12:36:39 AM
Free yourself from your faith.

Um yeah, telling someone that their religious views are wrong and that they should change them doesn't really sit right with me.......

Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on June 11, 2012, 01:04:07 AM
Um yeah, telling someone that their religious views are wrong and that they should change them doesn't really sit right with me.......

The OP asked for a way out of feeling guilty. I made no statement on the rightness or wrongness of their faith. I simply said that if one adult in authority abused that authority by telling the OP as a child that they would be sinful for being non-hetronormative, then the OP needs to wake up and realize that religious leaders have no right to make statements on morality. All the BS over original sin, especially filling children's heads with visions of hell and telling them that they should feel guilt over it, is sick, more so given the way religious leaders have acted in the past towards children.

There is nothing holy about churches and the people who run them. If one has faith that's a personal matter but I do not accept that a select few men get to preach from two thousand year old stories to others how to live their lives and make them feel guilty. That is wrong.

well what you don't know though niamh is I have been listening to open and affirming sermons from the mcc church which is primarily a lgbt congregation, and also the ucc which is a mix. I have actually gotten some really good explanations out of the sermons, that explain translations and context and meaning of certain scriptures, i found a site that speaks on all the clobber versuses. I have listened to each sermon twice now.

I am just trying to distinguish between my inner voice and between the programming I have gotten vs what I am hearing now, and being right with God.

Asking me to give up my faith does not solve anything for me. Instead I choose to try and seek a path of reconciliation, I want to be able to come to a place that Mel White has come to, and he went through 30 years of hell and therapy. He used to ghost-write for people like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell and then came out.

Quote**"After almost 3 decades of counseling and "anti-gay" therapy including prayer, fasting, exorcism, and electric shock, Mel White was able to reconcile his Christian theology and his sexual orientation. At his installation, Mel proclaimed his own, heart-felt statement of faith: "I am gay. I am proud. And God loves me without reservation." **

:icon_baby:  I am taking small baby steps at this point in my life to be happy. :icon_female:

Quote from: ShawnToShawn on June 11, 2012, 02:25:22 AM
Instead I choose to try and seek a path of reconciliation,

Colossion 1:20 "And, having made PEACE through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven."

He made the path of reconciliation for you. your guilt is hanging on the cross with him. I battled false guilt for years about this. you are not alone in this many have gone through it.

Quote from: niamh on June 11, 2012, 01:32:32 AM
The OP asked for a way out of feeling guilty. I made no statement on the rightness or wrongness of their faith. I simply said that if one adult in authority abused that authority by telling the OP as a child that they would be sinful for being non-hetronormative, then the OP needs to wake up and realize that religious leaders have no right to make statements on morality. All the BS over original sin, especially filling children's heads with visions of hell and telling them that they should feel guilt over it, is sick, more so given the way religious leaders have acted in the past towards children.

There is nothing holy about churches and the people who run them. If one has faith that's a personal matter but I do not accept that a select few men get to preach from two thousand year old stories to others how to live their lives and make them feel guilty. That is wrong.

Actually, niamh, it is their "right" and is what clerics do in most every world religion.  They teach and explain that faith's tenets, whatever they might be.

It is up to the congregant to process the information and come to personal conclusions.

I have found that anti-religious bigotry is just as intolerant and ugly as anti-glbt bigotry.

I think this issue belongs over in the "Spirituality" section. per TOS Rule 16.

Yes, thanks Jamie for moving it, that's where it has steered to now. Yes Religious leaders do have a right.

QuoteThe First Amendment (Amendment I) to the United States Constitution is part of the Bill of Rights. The amendment prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, impeding the free exercise of religion, abridging the freedom of speech, infringing on the freedom of the press, interfering with the right to peaceably assemble or prohibiting the petitioning for a governmental redress of grievances.

Quote from: ShawnToShawn on June 11, 2012, 02:25:22 AM
I am just trying to distinguish between my inner voice and between the programming I have gotten vs what I am hearing now, and being right with God.

Asking me to give up my faith does not solve anything for me. Instead I choose to try and seek a path of reconciliation, I want to be able to come to a place that Mel White has come to, and he went through 30 years of hell and therapy. He used to ghost-write for people like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell and then came out.

:icon_baby:  I am taking small baby steps at this point in my life to be happy. :icon_female:

Well good luck with that. As an atheist and secularist I was giving you my view from my side but if you have already chosen what to do (and are happy with an GLBT church) I see little point in my continuing to explain myself. If the views of non-religious people are seen as anti-religious then I guess that is where I disagree but will now wish you luck with finding whatever it is you are seeking.

QuoteWell good luck with that. As an atheist and secularist I was giving you my view from my side

Ok, well, what then? Are you suggesting it doesn't matter? I can see that if I was an atheist then it would mean in a broad sense, I could reject the belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, I could hold the position that there are no deities period. If I take that stance i can then see your point, as then it would only matter how I feel about it. So then yes, I could be free to do what I wanted.  In one sense, secularism may assert the right to be free from religious rule and teachings, and again I can see that as also being freeing.

But I am not an atheist or a secularist, nor can I ever come to the idea of that, I have had too many things happen good and bad and seen many wondrous things good and bad, the beauty of creation itself has a master plan, when I create a painting its not random, I have a picture in my mind and I paint it. If i made random paint strokes on the canvas it would look interesting for sure but I would not be allowing myself to use all of my imagination. i am not controlled by any one religion, I am not even controlled by God, but I have to make a decision that will keep me safe from the Evil One and lead me into the Arms of Love.

Life is complicated as it is. Being transgendered makes life x times more complicated. I can only imagine having said belief system complicating matters x times further. You are a very brave individual indeed. I myself have seen things you wouldn't believe... But I don't attribute them to a deity. I refer to Occam's razor. I'm 'spiritual' and live by 'ethical' rules, but I'm also an atheist/agnostic. I wouldn't get so hung up on finding labels and categories for everything and everyone. To define is to limit. Life is a spectrum, life is more fluid than that. Life is as complicated as you want to make it. Sorry.  :(

Gender identity is to sexual orientation as cheese is to chalk.

They have nothing to do with each other other than the internal affirmation and acceptance.  It is similar to the five stages of grief:

1) Denial.
2) Anger.
3) Bargaining.
4) Depression.
5) Acceptance.

Part of that, regardless of your religious affiliation, is a spiritual searching for answers.  That search, for some, goes on forever.  And for some, the answers they find is sufficient.  We are a very spiritual people, by and large.

You may find your search eased by addressing each of these separately.  Gender identity is who you see yourself to be.  Sexual orientation is who you are attracted to.

And as we, like butterflies, enter chrysalis, we become fluid and pliable, as we change from caterpillar to butterfly.  Many things change.  And that is all right.  We cannot change who we are, nor we cannot change who we become.

It is not a path that others can walk.  It is not a gift that others can carry.  But it is a blessing in all of it's wonderful forms.

-Sandy

Quote from: Laura91 on June 11, 2012, 12:40:10 PM
You may see it as intolerant and ugly but look at it from the perspective of a person that chooses to distance themselves from religion. I don't seek it out and yet I have to deal with people coming around and shoving it in my face regardless of how I feel about it. You can't expect people to be laid back about someone shoving their views in their face when they had no desire to hear it in the first place.

This is what a lot of religious people do and any harshness they get from people is brought on themselves.

To me, it doesn't matter which direction it flows, bigotry is bigotry.  It is the "intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own."

Tolerance is the capacity to recognize and respect the beliefs of others, without the need to embrace those beliefs yourself.  When I think of tolerance, Mahatma Ganghi comes to mind.  I wonder how he might have responded to these issues?

I have been reading the OP responses to the many suggestions for a solution, and by the tone of his responses I am afraid OP would not be able to find any response acceptable, may be there is no solution for the OP guiltness -not within the OP faith- other than to learn to live with it.

Quote from: Laura91 on June 11, 2012, 01:16:36 PM
While I agree with you that bigotry is wrong, what I mentioned isn't a form of bigotry. It is a reaction to someone having their personal space invaded. That is exactly what people do when they throw their religion at you like this. I recognize that people have the right to worship as they choose. What I don't like is someone shoving their views in my face and when I say "I'm not interested" instead of saying something like "get the hell away from me, you freak!" they still spazz out and tell me how I am going to hell even though I am doing all I can to be nice to them about this.

There is the difference.

You are quite right.   When I get a knock on my front door, and I find missionaries on my doorstep, I thank them for coming by, but tell them I have my own beliefs and wish them a good day.  Then I close the door.  It is my space.

It would be an entirely different situation if I voluntarily went to a church or synagogue, and began to harangue the worshipers.

I was speaking more to the sometimes harsh criticism being dealt in this thread.

And you are nice!

Quote from: peky on June 11, 2012, 01:31:46 PM
I have been reading the OP responses to the many suggestions for a solution, and by the tone of his responses I am afraid OP would not be able to find any response acceptable, may be there is no solution for the OP guiltness -not within the OP faith- other than to learn to live with it.

The context of the thread is simply this, "how does the OP reconcile their feelings about their gender and sexuality, within the framework of their religious beliefs?"

It is entirely fair to say, "change the framework."  It is not fair to denigrate any and all religious beliefs.

ShawnToShawn is clearly working on reconciliation.  It takes time.  For StS, this represents a significant and difficult paradigm shift.

QuoteFor StS, this represents a significant and difficult paradigm shift.

Yes That is very much my problem indeed. Shifting your whole essence of reality and existence reminds me of something I heard in a movie.



One Does Not Simply Walk Into Mordor

Talk with a therapist about your feelings. Preferably, someone who will NOT tell you the status of their beliefs as that will taint how they treat you. This is what cognitive behavior therapy is all about, basically reprogramming yourself to get rid of maladaive thoughts.

Quote from: ShawnToShawn on June 11, 2012, 02:52:38 PM
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh5.ggpht.com%2F-WmS-rE7Proo%2FT8kR_SxKJfI%2FAAAAAAAAGLM%2FadIfCWrTBsg%2FBoromir%2525255B3%2525255D.jpg&hash=7aa3a5fb74b8498c2ec6db31ff4fc2f10b8fa3af)

Completely off topic.  But I've seen this picture used before and for an old hippie, like myself, I am left with the impression that he is actually taking a toke...

*deep toke* "'ya know, dude, One does not simply WALK into Mordor..."
*exhale*
"Pass the ginger snaps and doritos, dude..."

[/thread hijack off/]