Susan's Place Transgender Resources

 Ok I tried to show someone a sermon I saw online that explains Leviticus 18:23 very well as pointing to the fact it is NOT condemning loving same sex relationships. The Audio sermon goes into more detail.

http://www.wouldjesusdiscriminate.org/biblical_evidence/leviticus.html (http://www.wouldjesusdiscriminate.org/biblical_evidence/leviticus.html)

They ignored it and then said "well we also follow other laws like not having sex with your parents or animals, most everyone agrees those are sinful, so it stands to reason that since 18:23 is lumped in between them that it is also against God's law."

I have no way to defend myself here on that exactly, I could use some more insight on why we follow certain Leviticus laws and certain ones we don't

You don't show it to them, God does.

Different demoninations have different ways of reading scripture, it is doubtful that you will be able to convince anyone to change their mind.

If you find solice in how this group has interpreted these verses, great.  I don't blame you for wanting to share a discovery you made, but it doesn't always work, you need to accept that, you tried, now leave it up to them to decide.  If you try to force anyone they will just get more stuborn about their view of the issue.

 OK that's a good place to be for sure, but I still could use some info if anything just for myself on why certain laws are followed and kept and certain ones are not, i kinda of came up with an answer though, does this seem about right?

Quotethere are a number of Leviticus Laws and the Holiness code that Christians do not follow because they were ceremonial laws or they were civil laws or they had to be moral laws.

Don't let cattle graze with other kinds of Cattle (Leviticus 19:19) *we do this today without guilt*

Don't have a variety of crops on the same field. (Leviticus 19:19) *we do this today without guilt

Don't wear clothes made of more than one fabric (Leviticus 19:19) (we do this today without guilt*

Don't cut your hair nor shave. (Leviticus 19:27) *we do this today without guilt*

Any person who curseth his mother or father, must be killed. (Leviticus 20:9) *Have you ever done that?*

If a man cheats on his wife, or vise versa, both the man and the woman must die. (Leviticus 20:10). I wonder if Dr. Laura would like that one to be enforced?

If a man or woman has sex with an animal, both human and animal must be killed. (Leviticus 20:15-16). *I guess you should kill the animal since they were willing participants. Are they crazy?*

If a man has sex with a woman on her period, they are both to be "cut off from their people" (Leviticus 20:18) * we don't do this to women today*

Psychics, wizards, and so on are to be stoned to death. (Leviticus 20:27) *while it could be a sin, we do not stone them to death today*

If a priest's daughter is a whore, she is to be burnt at the stake. (Leviticus 21:9) *this is insane to even think of doing today*

People who have flat noses, or is blind or lame, cannot go to an altar of God (Leviticus 21:17-18) *excuse me, really?*

Anyone who curses or blasphemes God, should be stoned to death by the community. (Leviticus 24:14-16)
*cursing God is a sin, but we do not stone anyone for it today*
Again it comes down to what sort of laws they were, Jesus came to fulfill the law. Bring to completion or reality.

Civil - Expired with the demise of the Jewish civil government

Ceremonial - Expired with the fulfillment of priestly work of Christ

Moral - No Expiration because it is based on God's character. "You shall be holy, for I the Lord your God am holy"

So how does a Christian pick and chose then? Why are so many Christians debating the topic of intersex,transgender and homosexuality? We use to use the bible to approve of slavery,treating women like lesser beings, calling interracial marriage a sin, denying equal rights and of course Hitler was in the wrong as well.

Then I took it further and asked this of them:

QuoteConsider for a moment what is in Deuteronomy 27, Which comes after Leviticus in the Old Testament. No where here is it mentioned that men with men or women with women is a curse. Why would they leave that out here, if it was supposed to be a curse?

Curses from Mount Ebal

11 That same day Moses also gave this charge to the people: 12 "When you cross the Jordan River, the tribes of Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Joseph, and Benjamin must stand on Mount Gerizim to proclaim a blessing over the people. 13 And the tribes of Reuben, Gad, Asher, Zebulun, Dan, and Naphtali must stand on Mount Ebal to proclaim a curse.

14 "Then the Levites will shout to all the people of Israel:

15 'Cursed is anyone who carves or casts an idol and secretly sets it up. These idols, the work of craftsmen, are detestable to the Lord.'

And all the people will reply, 'Amen.'

16 'Cursed is anyone who dishonors father or mother.'

And all the people will reply, 'Amen.'

17 'Cursed is anyone who steals property from a neighbor by moving a boundary marker.'

And all the people will reply, 'Amen.'

18 'Cursed is anyone who leads a blind person astray on the road.'

And all the people will reply, 'Amen.'

19 'Cursed is anyone who denies justice to foreigners, orphans, or widows.'

And all the people will reply, 'Amen.'

20 'Cursed is anyone who has sexual intercourse with one of his father's wives, for he has violated his father.'

And all the people will reply, 'Amen.'

21 'Cursed is anyone who has sexual intercourse with an animal.'

And all the people will reply, 'Amen.'

22 'Cursed is anyone who has sexual intercourse with his sister, whether she is the daughter of his father or his mother.'

And all the people will reply, 'Amen.'

23 'Cursed is anyone who has sexual intercourse with his mother-in-law.'

And all the people will reply, 'Amen.'

24 'Cursed is anyone who attacks a neighbor in secret.'

And all the people will reply, 'Amen.'

25 'Cursed is anyone who accepts payment to kill an innocent person.'

And all the people will reply, 'Amen.'

26 'Cursed is anyone who does not affirm and obey the terms of these instructions.'

And all the people will reply, 'Amen.'

I'm no expert, Shawn, but it seems to me that the Mosaic Laws were for a people and a time long ago.  Either one must follow them in their entirety, or replace them with something else, as in a new testament.

I don't thinknthe laws of Leviticus apply on their entirety as admitted by most theologians. It's really not a pick and choose thing. Also, I don't even think Jews follow all those laws as any rabbi would admit that that would be unreasonable in today's sociey.

My memory says that since the "gift of holy spirit" we no longer live under the law but under grace. I think it explains this in Acts.

We are no longer under the old testament. We are under the New Testament, and living under the free gift of grace. Context makes the difference. Let us all also consider that we have no clue who even wrote the bible. We have no idea IF God even said any of the things these characters in the bible say he said. There is no hard evidence one way or another that the bible is anything more than the greatest work of fiction ever written. For all we know, this book could have been written in the 1700s by a bunch of people who wanted to control others and spread a myth that would reinforce the unenlightened thoughts of the time.

Look in the front of the book, and the first thing you see is a copyright notice. There's your first clue.   

Although I no longer consider myself a theist, I did give these issues a lot of thought in the past and I eventually came down on the side of those who hold that Jews have the Old Testament and Christians the New.  You really can't be both.
As a lot of people here have pointed out you can't cherry-pick either, so eating lobster is a no-no, as is wearing a polyester-cotton garment.  Not to mention how much is my science graduate daughter worth on the open market?

Karen.

Romans 2 and 3 is one new testament section that talks about the old law and faith.

You could ask if they are wearing a cotton-polyester shirt, and if they say yes, ask whether they are ready to be stoned to death.  If people are going to be pedantic they have to count themselves in as well.
This either/or view is not actually a return to old beliefs, it is a modern interpretation dating from about 1870.  Before then believers had a healthy dose of doubt and humility.  They did not claim to have a direct line to the almighty, which is fairly blasphemous if you think about it.

While the earthly consequences may or may not be the same with God's moral law the eternal consequences will never change. Jesus Himself states how wide and deep the moral laws are in God's sight.


Matthew 5 21-32
Murder

21 "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'You shall not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister[c] will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca,'[d] is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

23 "Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.

25 "Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

Adultery

27 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.'[e] 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

Going so far as to include even our very thoughts.

The eternal consequences of disobeying the moral law is repeated over and over in the new testament.

Revelation 21 6-8

6 He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars —they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Galatians 5 13-21

13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[a]; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.


If one can see it all of God's moral laws are all based on the ten commandments.

Quote from: SarahM777 on August 09, 2012, 08:32:17 AM
27 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.'[e] 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

Is this for real or are you just joking?

Quote
6 He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars —they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

I never understood why unbelievers should be punished. It's like beating up on a Dalmatian puppy for being born with too few spots. Belief is not an act of will. One can be convinced, but one can not decide to believe in that which one finds unconvincing.

Quote from: MariaMx on August 09, 2012, 09:25:42 AM
Is this for real or are you just joking?
I never understood why unbelievers should be punished. It's like beating up on a Dalmatian puppy for being born with too few spots. Belief is not an act of will. One can be convinced, but one can not decide to believe in that which one finds unconvincing.

Does not God whom is sovereign,Holy,righteous,true,just,and pure without spot or defect,whom created everything not have the right to set the rules? Does He not have the right to cast out any spot or blemish that comes from sin away from Him?
He gave us the law to show that we can not fulfill the law and He has every right to condemn us because we have broken His holy law and our only hope is for a substitute to take our place.

Hebrews 9
1 Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. 2 A tabernacle was set up. In its first room were the lampstand and the table with its consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place. 3 Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, 4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron's staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant. 5 Above the ark were the cherubim of the Glory, overshadowing the atonement cover. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now.

6 When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry. 7 But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning. 9 This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings —external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

The Blood of Christ

11 But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here,[a] he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. 12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[c] so that we may serve the living God!

15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance —now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

16 In the case of a will,[d] it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17 because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18 This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. 19 When Moses had proclaimed every command of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. 20 He said, "This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep."[e] 21 In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

23 It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.


And that is the good news that Jesus Christ took our place and we can be declared justified by faith in by His shed blood for our sins.

Quote from: SarahM777 on August 09, 2012, 11:58:09 AM
And that is the good news that Jesus Christ took our place and we can be declared justified by faith in by His shed blood for our sins.

That says it all!

Quote from: SarahM777 on August 09, 2012, 11:58:09 AM
Does not God whom is sovereign,Holy,righteous,true,just,and pure without spot or defect,whom created everything not have the right to set the rules?

Well, there being non other than god in the first place I guess he gave himself that right. I think "opportunity" is a more appropriate word as "rights" the way I see them are something that has been given or agreed upon. Yes, a supreme and all powerful being make any rules it wants, but I think the rules set forth will be indicators of the nature of the supreme and all powerful being. To be without spot or defect one would assume the rules given would be so too, but in this case they are not. There's a contradiction here.

Quote
Does He not have the right to cast out any spot or blemish that comes from sin away from Him?

He certainly has the opportunity, but why would do such a thing? Allegedly what he does is to place the unbeliever to burn in the flames forever. You can be as regretful as you wish about your mistake not to convinced by the good message delivered to you by humans you know to be mistaken on a massive scale (and don't forget the thousands of other mutual exclusive religions out there).

If god wanted he could spare the souls in hell the suffering by wiping them from existence, but he won't. He needs to know that he is inflicting the ultimate torture and pain on to those that acted the only way they could which happened to conflict with his will. Why does god what this? I don't know. Hell serves no purpose anyway. It's not preventive since you have to be a believer in the first place to be sacred into behaving. It's not rehabilitating as it is eternal. Segregation of the unbeliever is also pointless since they could just be erased anyway, besides, one would think they has become believer by now, no? I'm having trouble seeing the purpose of hell other than for gods own pleasure.

Quote
He gave us the law to show that we can not fulfill the law and He has every right to condemn us because we have broken His holy law and our only hope is for a substitute to take our place.

But what is the point of this? What ultimate purpose do these laws serve? Are they merely arbitrary actions by a being existing in a total vacuum? The thing is I can't see how you can logically punish someone for something they can't themselves control. With the right power you can do it, just like the breeder of the the Dalmatian puppy born sub-standard can beat the poor thing into a pulp, but why would one do that? I don't understand this aspect of Christianity.

 

Quote from: MariaMx on August 09, 2012, 02:27:48 PM
Well, there being non other than god in the first place I guess he gave himself that right. I think "opportunity" is a more appropriate word as "rights" the way I see them are something that has been given or agreed upon. Yes, a supreme and all powerful being make any rules it wants, but I think the rules set forth will be indicators of the nature of the supreme and all powerful being. To be without spot or defect one would assume the rules given would be so too, but in this case they are not. There's a contradiction here.
He certainly has the opportunity, but why would do such a thing? Allegedly what he does is to place the unbeliever to burn in the flames forever. You can be as regretful as you wish about your mistake not to convinced by the good message delivered to you by humans you know to be mistaken on a massive scale (and don't forget the thousands of other mutual exclusive religions out there).

Because God is a just God and law breakers will be judged. Unlike human judges He is perfect and can not be bribed and He will judge rightly.
Break a human law,get caught and what should happen? (And somehow we know this is what should happen.) The one who broke the law either gets fined or goes to jail. And that's just human law.
Should God just let murderers go? Should He just let thieves go? Should He just let liars go?
Or is justice demanded because the law has been broken? If God were to let someone go without justice being served how can He be just?
In God's sight sin is so wicked,wretched,vile and disgusting to Him. He can do no else but to remove it from His very sight. There is a price that needs to be paid. Either the one that breaks the law must pay the penalty or a substitute must be found to pay the price.

Boiled down you only have two different ways to God. One which most religions are state that you must do enough "good works" to out weigh all the bad things you have ever done. Those that believe in reincarnation also have a somewhat similar notion that what ones does in this life affects what you will either be or what you may have to suffer in the next life as you become better and better.

Both Judisam and Christianity both come from the God said that innocent blood must be shed as a covering for sin. (Not good works) The ceremonial laws were a fore shadow of the coming messiah. What ever animal was used as a sin offering had to be without spot or blemish. Jesus the Christ,Messiah,God's anointed one came into the world as the one and only perfect sacrifice to atone for man's sin.

Quote from: MariaMx on August 09, 2012, 02:27:48 PM

But what is the point of this? What ultimate purpose do these laws serve? Are they merely arbitrary actions by a being existing in a total vacuum? The thing is I can't see how you can logically punish someone for something they can't themselves control. With the right power you can do it, just like the breeder of the the Dalmatian puppy born sub-standard can beat the poor thing into a pulp, but why would one do that? I don't understand this aspect of Christianity.

The laws are to point to us that we are in deep trouble and so desperately need a savior. God loves us so much that He did send a savior who is Jesus Christ. Boiled down it comes down to His way or our way.

Here is what I share with my former pastor.

QuoteMosaic law in context
Much of the Deuteronomic code is not followed these days, because many of the laws are ridiculous by current moral standards. Still, those with a political agenda, whether pro or con on an issue, often pick and choose passages that back up their claims, ignoring the fact that the passages appear amidst a lot of other stuff that seems ridiculous today.
Take a look at the miscellaneous rules which follow Deuteronomy 22:5--
•A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman's garment; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God.
•Don't take a mother bird from her nest.
•Put a rail around your roof so no one falls off.
•Don't plant crops with vines.
•Don't hitch oxen and donkeys together.
•Don't wear cloth combined of wool and linen.
•Sew tassels on four corners of clothes.
•If a man marries a girl, but later doesn't want her and claims she wasn't a virgin, her parents are to bring blood stained wedding sheet to the leaders, who are to beat him and make him give 500 silver pieces to the father, and he can't divorce her. If the husband's claims are true, she's to be stoned to death at the entrance to her father's house.
•Men who have sex with others' fiancees are to be killed along with the fiancee. However, if it happens in the country, you should just kill the man, since no one could have heard the woman cry out.
•Raping single girls requires payment of 50 silver pieces to her father and marriage with no divorce.
•No sex with any of father's wives.

Being forced to marry your rapist, polygamy, stoning people to death... not exactly civilized by modern standards. Just as strange today is sewing tassels on your clothes or putting a rail around your roof.
The Hebrews were deeply invested in distinction and separation. Their dietary laws are about categories, and most unclean animals do not fit into an acceptable category. For instance, Jews can't mix dairy and meat. Rules against pork are because pigs have cloven hooves but don't chew a cud, thus are not neatly categorized. Only water creatures with fins and scales may be eaten-- no shrimp or frogs, etc.
Biblical scholars have commented that the laws above about mixing crops, livestock and fabrics are manifestation of this fierce urge to maintain distinctions.

I have more defence for other scripture often quoted.
Just email me and I can with you.
Hugs,
Jillieann Rose

Quote from: SarahM777 on August 09, 2012, 05:17:39 PM
Because God is a just God and law breakers will be judged.

You are missing the point here. I am talking about people that don't believe, and belief in something is not something that can be chosen, therefore people can not be held responsible for not believing in something if god is just. He can't both be just and punish people for something they can't help.

Quote
Break a human law,get caught and what should happen? (And somehow we know this is what should happen.) The one who broke the law either gets fined or goes to jail. And that's just human law.

This is a false analogy. You can't compare gods laws to human laws. Human laws are agreed upon by humans. We know they are there and we know they are real and we don't have to take that on pure faith. Gods laws on the other hand are merely assertions about rules set forth by a supernatural being who's existence can't be verified so it is unreasonable to expect people to believe in them just because some people say it is so. I won't start believing in it just because someone say I should. I need a compelling reason to do so. Telling me I will burn in hell unless I believe is not an incentive to believe because I would have to believe in the first place to take the threat seriously. The threat of hell fire is superfluous because it does nothing for the unbeliever and the believer alike.

Quote
Should God just let murderers go? Should He just let thieves go? Should He just let liars go?
Or is justice demanded because the law has been broken? If God were to let someone go without justice being served how can He be just?

I limited the scope of my argument to the unbeliever for simplicities sake, but since you mention it, does god differentiate between the unbeliever, the murderer, the thief and the liar? Or is it eternal hell fire for all?
Also, why does gods justice have to take on the specific form you outline? Why can't it be up to god to define his justice in a more humane, sensible and reasonable way? He's god, right? Why can't he be better than this?

Quote
In God's sight sin is so wicked,wretched,vile and disgusting to Him. He can do no else but to remove it from His very sight. There is a price that needs to be paid. Either the one that breaks the law must pay the penalty or a substitute must be found to pay the price.

How does that fit in with turning the other cheek? I find it baffling that a supreme being would be driven by such compulsions.

Quote from: MariaMx on August 09, 2012, 06:07:59 PM
You are missing the point here. I am talking about people that don't believe, and belief in something is not something that can be chosen, therefore people can not be held responsible for not believing in something if god is just. He can't both be just and punish people for something they can't help.

Belief can be chosen. I can choose to believe in evolution or not believe it. I can choose to believe the earth is flat or not. The moon is made of green cheese etc etc etc.

See God's laws have also been written on our hearts. Our conseince testifies to that.

Romans 2 12-16

12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Quote from: MariaMx on August 09, 2012, 06:07:59 PM

This is a false analogy. You can't compare gods laws to human laws. Human laws are agreed upon by humans. We know they are there and we know they are real and we don't have to take that on pure faith. Gods laws on the other hand are merely assertions about rules set forth by a supernatural being who's existence can't be verified so it is unreasonable to expect people to believe in them just because some people say it is so. I won't start believing in it just because someone say I should. I need a compelling reason to do so.

The analogy is correct in this point that in both cases lawbreakers will be judged. Laws by agreement are only in those countries that have a Republic,Democracy or Parliamentory government not in a dictatorship or a kingdom. In a kingdom the subjects are required to obey the kings law.

All of creation declares His handiwork


The final judgement should fill us with fear because God can do it. He said He can and will do it.

Jesus Himself tells us to fear God

Luke 12 4-7

4 "I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him. 6 Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. 7 Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

Quote from: MariaMx on August 09, 2012, 06:07:59 PM

How does that fit in with turning the other cheek? I find it baffling that a supreme being would be driven by such compulsions.

Deuteronomy 32  34-35



Romans 12 18-20

18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19 Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"[a] says the Lord. 20 On the contrary:

"If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
    if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."


We are to forgive them and let God repay in His time and way.


If God has provided the one way that one can be justified in His sight and one chooses not to believe that what else can possibly cover wrong doing if not by His sending Jesus to take on God's wrath by the shedding of Jesus blood for atonement for sin?

Quote from: SarahM777 on August 09, 2012, 07:53:11 PM
Belief can be chosen. I can choose to believe in evolution or not believe it. I can choose to believe the earth is flat or not. The moon is made of green cheese etc etc etc.

That is a bold statement. Could you perhaps demonstrate? I would greatly appreciate it if you show me that you can believe the earth to be flat, and I don't mean to pretend to believe or just say you believe. I mean truly and wholeheartedly be convinced that the earth is flat. On your own command I want you turn 100% certain earth is flat in spite of all contradictory evidence.

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See God's laws have also been written on our hearts. Our conseince testifies to that.

If it is our altruism you are referring to I think that can be explained with evolution. Humans need their flock to survive, and for the flock to survive the humans need to be altruistic.

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The analogy is correct in this point that in both cases lawbreakers will be judged.

Yes, but they differ in that human laws can be know to be in effect. The alleged laws of god can not. Think about it this way, should the members of an isolated tribe in the Amazon rainforest be punished by god for not believing in him? It wouldn't seem fair as they don't know that god exists. It's the same thing. Having heard claims of his existence is not the same as knowing he exists.

QuoteLaws by agreement are only in those countries that have a Republic,Democracy or Parliamentory government not in a dictatorship or a kingdom. In a kingdom the subjects are required to obey the kings law.

The laws can still be factually known to be in effect so this is just a red herring. It makes little difference if one or one thousand people made the law(s).

You quote a lot of scripture. Unless you can point to specifics in the text that could not have been written unless true then it's not very interesting or compelling. Copy and paste jobs alone seldom make for interesting discussion or convincing arguments. These things are more fun to discuss when one presents well thought out arguments in ones own words.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FMeYL4.jpg&hash=334dc91fddb4b32d5edf2b74de48032e72b6cf01)

Quote from: MariaMx on August 09, 2012, 08:53:06 PM
That is a bold statement. Could you perhaps demonstrate? I would greatly appreciate it if you show me that you can believe the earth to be flat, and I don't mean to pretend to believe or just say you believe. I mean truly and wholeheartedly be convinced that the earth is flat. On your own command I want you turn 100% certain earth is flat in spite of all contradictory evidence.

I myself do not believe the earth is flat but there are those who are pushing for a flat earth.
They are called the Flat Earth Society. They even have there own web site so...... The only way one can believe it is by choice they have chosen to believe it.

Quote from: MariaMx on August 09, 2012, 08:53:06 PM

If it is our altruism you are referring to I think that can be explained with evolution. Humans need their flock to survive, and for the flock to survive the humans need to be altruistic.
Yes, but they differ in that human laws can be know to be in effect. The alleged laws of god can not. Think about it this way, should the members of an isolated tribe in the Amazon rainforest be punished by god for not believing in him? It wouldn't seem fair as they don't know that god exists. It's the same thing. Having heard claims of his existence is not the same as knowing he exists.

There is a problem with trying to explain how we got the law if we are evolved from rocks.
Going back far enough that is the statement of evolution.We came from rain falling on the ground causing erosion,collecting in a pond and life coming from it.
If evolution is true then why is it wrong for a bully to take some one someone elses lunch? If it's only survival of the strongest and most fit how then can one say it's stealing? It makes no sense. Then what makes it wrong to murder? If we are nothing but pond scum why is it wrong? Then perhaps those that say we are freaks of nature are correct because that is all we are then.
The law only has meaning if there is someone above in authority to enforce the law. If there is no authority to enforce the law then the law becomes meaningless.

Quote from: MariaMx on August 09, 2012, 08:53:06 PM

Yes, but they differ in that human laws can be know to be in effect. The alleged laws of god can not. Think about it this way, should the members of an isolated tribe in the Amazon rainforest be punished by god for not believing in him? It wouldn't seem fair as they don't know that god exists. It's the same thing. Having heard claims of his existence is not the same as knowing he exists.

God has shown His laws. God writes them in our hearts. God also gave the laws to Moses. We know what is right our conscience tells us. If we are from pond scum then a conscience makes no sense there is no need for it. A conscience is a detriment to survival of the fittest


The Bible tells us of the greatest rescue mission of all time. Jesus came to seek and save the lost.

If there is no higher authority on the law than why is Bernie Madoff in jail? With evolution human laws do not make any sense as the only goal is survival of the fittest. Life has no real value unless someone greater gives value to that life.
Taken to the end the only possible outcome is a Hitler who devalued life. We know he put to death Jews,homosexuals,Poles and others. What made him wrong if all we are is pond scum?

Somehow deep in our hearts we KNOW that stealing and murder are wrong. It can only come from a higher authority.

Even the youngest child knows that it is wrong for their brothers and sisters to take their toys,
to have their brother and sister hitting them. They even know its wrong so where do they get it unless it's ingrained in us from the beginning?

Quote from: SarahM777 on August 09, 2012, 09:34:25 PM
I myself do not believe the earth is flat but there are those who are pushing for a flat earth.
They are called the Flat Earth Society. They even have there own web site so...... The only way one can believe it is by choice they have chosen to believe it.

Yes, I know all about the Flat Earth Society, but that is completely besides the point. You claim belief can be chosen and I want you to demonstrate that to be true. If your claim is true then you should be able to start believing in a flat-earth at your own command. If you can't do it then why is it reasonable to expect non-believers to be able to do it?

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There is a problem with trying to explain how we got the law if we are evolved from rocks.
Going back far enough that is the statement of evolution.We came from rain falling on the ground causing erosion,collecting in a pond and life coming from it.
If evolution is true then why is it wrong for a bully to take some one someone elses lunch? If it's only survival of the strongest and most fit how then can one say it's stealing? It makes no sense. Then what makes it wrong to murder? If we are nothing but pond scum why is it wrong? Then perhaps those that say we are freaks of nature are correct because that is all we are then.
The law only has meaning if there is someone above in authority to enforce the law. If there is no authority to enforce the law then the law becomes meaningless.

Because that kind of behavior is counterproductive to the well-being of society. The theory of evolution does not state that the one that can steal, kill and maim the most will be most likely to survive in the long run. In battle of war this might be true but we humans are flock animals and we need our flock to survive and pass on our genes. If one of our distant ancestors were to kill every other member of the flock this individual would not survive and procreate . In this example "survival of the fittest" simply means survival of those individuals that can ensure survival of the flock. If we didn't have these traits ingrained in our instincts through natural selection we wouldn't be here today.

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God has shown His laws. God writes them in our hearts. God also gave the laws to Moses.

These are claims, not facts.

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We know what is right our conscience tells us.

Asked and answered.

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If we are from pond scum then a conscience makes no sense there is no need for it. A conscience is a detriment to survival of the fittest

Not in a setting where conscience is key to survival.

Quote from: SarahM777 on August 10, 2012, 05:24:46 AM
If there is no higher authority on the law than why is Bernie Madoff in jail? With evolution human laws do not make any sense as the only goal is survival of the fittest. Life has no real value unless someone greater gives value to that life.

Of course it can still have value. My life for instance has value to me, my family, my friends, my co-workers and my community.

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Somehow deep in our hearts we KNOW that stealing and murder are wrong. It can only come from a higher authority.

False dilemma*. Evolution can account for this.

* Edit: 'False dilemma' is a bit inaccurate as in this case the second option is excluded as opposed to the third . I have heard of it as the 'Fallacy of Limited Imagination' but I'm just not sure. If anyone knows please let me know.

Quote from: MariaMx on August 10, 2012, 08:11:38 AM
Yes, I know all about the Flat Earth Society, but that is completely besides the point. You claim belief can be chosen and I want you to demonstrate that to be true. If your claim is true then you should be able to start believing in a flat-earth at your own command. If you can't do it then why is it reasonable to expect non-believers to be able to do it?

I only have a short time this morning so I will only touch on this for the moment. You have two different things in that statement. First one can choose to believe in evolution or one can can believe in creation,or the third option is creative evolution. Presented with the interpretations of the evidence you will chose to believe one of the three and reject the others because they all can't be true,everyone does that,there are no exceptions. You will be presented with the evidences that the earth is either flat or a sphere and you will either chose to believe that the earth is flat or you will accept and believe the earth is a sphere.  That is the choice of what one choices to believe at first.

Now to change off of that belief often times takes time but that in itself does not mean that it can't happen very quickly. What needs to happen is that the foundation of said belief needs to be shaken if it is shaken badly enough one can very quickly change their belief. earthquake,floods,and major life changes can be one way of looking at things a whole lot differently, all of these things point to getting ones house in order because life is very short and tomorrow may not come for you. Not in the longer time frame testimonies,seeking scripture,evidences,and others things like it are like small pebbles that added over time can cause one to change their minds and beliefs.

Biblical repentance is just that a change of heart and mind,turning away from sin and turning to God. It implies that it can be done and does happen. The reason most don't is because they don't want to give up their sins and would rather that God would have nothing to do with their lives.

To often the right question is never asked,to often the question is asked why a Holy,Righteous,Just,Loving God would cast sinners into hell. The question that should be asked is why a person that wants nothing to do with God,will not come to know Him,will not love Him,will not trust Him,and will not obey and wants nothing to do with Him ever want to spend eternity with Him and those who do chose to do those things. It would be the greatest torture that one could ever imagine. It would be like living with a person who you totally despise day after day after day,forever and ever and ever, with no  relief ever.

Part of our problem is way to often is that we like to compare ourselves to someone else. It's way to easy to point out someone else and say I am pretty good not like that person there. Let's face it most of us are not Hitlers,Stalins,Dahmers,or a whole host of pretty bad men and women. I can honestly say I am not so bad. But that is NOT the comparison that needs to be made. God has given the law as a plumb line to compare where we are at with where He says we should be.

Now we do not think it's all that bad with a little white lie. It's still a lie. It's against God's law.
Jesus said if you even look at a woman with lust you have committed adultery.
God has also said taking His name in vain such as in cursing with it is against His laws.

So what does this mean in an average lifetime using a typical male.

If one were to use a little white lie just 1 time a day in 65 years it comes to 23,725 lies.
If that same person were to curse using God's name just 1 time in a day from the time he is 15 up to 65 it comes to 18,250 times that His name has been taken in vain.
If that same person were to have lustful thoughts just 3 times in that same time frame they have committed adultery 54,750 times.
That same person in the course of 65 years has broken God's law 96,725 times on just 3 of His laws.
The thing is no one may ever see it because this person seems to have it all together on the outside he loves his wife,takes care of his kids,go to work and works hard every day,works with the poor,feeds the hungry etc etc. even doing all these things he is a law breaker and it way to often way more than just once or twice.

Somehow someone must pay the price for justice. And that is where in God's great wisdom,mercy and love for us, not wanting anyone to go to hell,knowing that we could not pay the price He is telling us

You have broken my laws and you can not do it on your the price for sin is eternal separation from me to a place that was prepared for the demons,you were never meant to go there,I will show the way back to me through the perfect sacrifice for the covering of your sins for those who will accept it,I will give up my Son who will take on my wrath for your sins,His body with be broken,beaten and shattered. My wrath will be ended to those who will come to me through My One and Only Perfect Son. He has chosen to take your place and pay the price that you can not. But I do require two things repent and put your trust in Jesus. Trust in His sacrifice. Trust that He is who He said He is. Trust that He is the only and true way to come to me.  Trust that in his shed blood and I WILL remove your sins as far from me as far as the universe is wide and I WILL REMEMBER THEM NO MORE.

You can not earn it,pay for it,or work for it,it is by MY GRACE ALONE. No one deserves it but it is given because MY love for you is so great no price was to high to bring you back to ME. Trust in Him and I will make you my sons and daughters and I will bring you to be with me to know me in perfection where there is no pain,sickness,poverty or death. All will have all that they need. For those who love MY SON He will prepare a place for you,for in my house their are many mansions. But reject Him on your peril,for by rejecting HIM there is no covering for your sin and my wrath will be poured on those who will pour contempt upon His Holy and Perfect sacrifice. He was willing to step down from His place in glory,He was willing to GIVE UP EVERYTHING and submit to my will and lived a perfect life.
As a sign from me that His sacrifice was worthy I RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD. He was shown to be raised from the dead by the 11 and then again to 500 trust worthy eye witnesses that laid their lives down to proclaim this truth.
They were willing to suffer torture,pain,suffering,scorn and ridicule because they saw my risen Son. Nothing will EVER make it untrue. My words will endure forever.

Quote from: SarahM777 on August 11, 2012, 09:30:42 AM
I only have a short time this morning so I will only touch on this for the moment. You have two different things in that statement. First one can choose to believe in evolution or one can can believe in creation,or the third option is creative evolution. Presented with the interpretations of the evidence you will chose to believe one of the three and reject the others because they all can't be true,everyone does that,there are no exceptions. You will be presented with the evidences that the earth is either flat or a sphere and you will either chose to believe that the earth is flat or you will accept and believe the earth is a sphere.  That is the choice of what one choices to believe at first.

Any rational person will go with the option that makes the most sense. That is not choosing, it is being convinced. If one were to go with the option that is not the most convincing one one would be biased and/or in denial. If one finds option A most convincing but still claim to believe in B one is not being truthful to oneself and others.

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Now to change off of that belief often times takes time but that in itself does not mean that it can't happen very quickly. What needs to happen is that the foundation of said belief needs to be shaken if it is shaken badly enough one can very quickly change their belief. earthquake,floods,and major life changes can be one way of looking at things a whole lot differently, all of these things point to getting ones house in order because life is very short and tomorrow may not come for you.

What you are describing here is belief being changed by external factor, not by choice. People are not bound to have such experiences.

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Not in the longer time frame testimonies,seeking scripture,evidences,and others things like it are like small pebbles that added over time can cause one to change their minds and beliefs.

Yes, conditioning can change ones belief. THe only problem is, what would motivate a non-believer to do such a thing? If you don't believe in flat-earth, why would you put in an effort to start believing in flat-earth?

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Biblical repentance is just that a change of heart and mind,turning away from sin and turning to God. It implies that it can be done and does happen. The reason most don't is because they don't want to give up their sins and would rather that God would have nothing to do with their lives.

One would already have to be a believer for this to hold true. I don't believe because I don't find the claim of there being a god credible, not because of the consequence [having to give up my what is considered sin according to said religion] of believing.

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To often the right question is never asked,to often the question is asked why a Holy,Righteous,Just,Loving God would cast sinners into hell. The question that should be asked is why a person that wants nothing to do with God,will not come to know Him,will not love Him,will not trust Him,and will not obey and wants nothing to do with Him ever want to spend eternity with Him and those who do chose to do those things. It would be the greatest torture that one could ever imagine. It would be like living with a person who you totally despise day after day after day,forever and ever and ever, with no  relief ever.

But the same can be asked of you in regards to the god you don't believe in. Why do you want nothing to do with the god of the Aztecs? The answer is quiet simple actually. Why would one be concerned about not believing in something that is obviously not true? There are thousands of gods that you don't believe in, I just believe in one less than you.

And that brings us back to the original question: If belief can not be chosen, why does god want to punish the unbeliever?

At this point I see that we are talking at each other but our views are just to far apart for me to continue on with this
as the points are being missed as our views are to far apart and what one of us is saying is not what the other is hearing. (It' is on both sides)

Quote from: SarahM777 on August 13, 2012, 02:00:26 PM
At this point I see that we are talking at each other but our views are just to far apart for me to continue on with this
as the points are being missed as our views are to far apart and what one of us is saying is not what the other is hearing. (It' is on both sides)

I have to disagree. I know what you are saying but I think you are wrong. For me the core of the discussion is whether one can choose to start believing in something that is contradictory to the currently held belief without convincing. One can be convinced, yes, but not by ones volition alone. There has to at least be motive or some form of incentive, if there isn't, one will obviously not put in an effort to cause oneself to start believing in something one sees as not being true.

You don't believe in the gods of the old Greeks. To you they are just old man made stories from an ancient time when they didn't know any better, and therefor you will not be interested in doing what ever it would takes to make yourself believe in them. Without motive you won't do it. Maybe someone would come along and tell you that if you don't start believing in them Zevs will torture you for all eternity in the afterlife with his bolts of lightning. Would that perhaps motivate you? After all, you don't want Zevs to torture you, right? But it doesn't matter. The threat won't motivate you because you don't believe in the story anyway. No motive and no convincing equals no belief. Beliefs can't be chosen, they just happen, or they don't.

It would be great though, to be able to choose what to believe. I don't like the fact that I was born male. If I could simply choose to believe I was not, then that would be just great.

We can leave it at that if you like.

I know what it is I am feeling a bit frustrated with myself because I am not sure if I am coming across clearly. It's at that point I just need to step back and a think a little more if I can state it a bit better and clearer.

Quote from: MariaMx on August 13, 2012, 04:20:24 PM
I have to disagree. I know what you are saying but I think you are wrong. For me the core of the discussion is whether one can choose to start believing in something that is contradictory to the currently held belief without convincing. One can be convinced, yes, but not by ones volition alone. There has to at least be motive or some form of incentive, if there isn't, one will obviously not put in an effort to cause oneself to start believing in something one sees as not being true.

I do agree with you once the core beliefs are formed it is very difficult to come to a different set of beliefs. It usually takes outside circumstances to change them.


Because of what we are dealing with we get the down side far to often. God is so awesome and loves us so..... much and once we are His children. He is there with us in our pain,He works on our hearts that we can love Him,
He meets our needs (not our wants) He walks with us and speaks to us. He will never leave us or forsake those who belong to Him.

Quote from: MariaMx on August 13, 2012, 04:20:24 PM


It would be great though, to be able to choose what to believe. I don't like the fact that I was born male. If I could simply choose to believe I was not, then that would be just great.

I struggled a long long time but God gave me His peace to be able to come to terms with it. I am a woman in a man's body. He calls me by my name. He calls me Sarah. It doesn't mean it's easy because unless He heals my body I will have to live like this for the rest of my life but that's ok because when I see Him I will be totally and completely whole. He will make as I should have been. He's been there in the darkness night when the pain was so great and all I could do was sob myself to sleep. I am no longer in torment of mind. This is the part that is so seldom heard.

I'm curious Sarah, do you think it is a sin to transition?

Saw this on Facebook...

QuoteJesus said it best, "Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

Leviticus lists a lot of prohibitions the vast majority we routinely ignore, why should this one, out of all of those still apply today. Because "Christians," pick and choose to support whatever they want the Bible to say.

So tell them that it no longer applies.

Quote from: MariaMx on August 13, 2012, 08:22:38 PM
I'm curious Sarah, do you think it is a sin to transition?

Maria,

I don't believe that it is a sin. I do believe that like any other birth defect it is not wrong to correct it. The only thing is to make 100% sure that this is the right path.
For myself I am not to do so as it is what God has laid on my heart, I am to trust Him on how this will all work out.
I also know I am not to marry again. (Long story about that) but this is my path and it may not be yours.

Quote from: SarahM777 on August 13, 2012, 08:54:07 PM
Maria,

I don't believe that it is a sin. I do believe that like any other birth defect it is not wrong to correct it. The only thing is to make 100% sure that this is the right path.
For myself I am not to do so as it is what God has laid on my heart, I am to trust Him on how this will all work out.
I also know I am not to marry again. (Long story about that) but this is my path and it may not be yours.

I'm glad to hear you don't think it is. My path has already taken me to where I need to be. In my reality there is no other life than this one and thus only one shot at happiness.

I wish you the best of luck on your path.

Leviticus is a joke, not only because its not even in the original language so is not properly translated but seems to simply be a fall back for false Christians to justify their own personal bigotry.

To be Christian is to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, not the teachings of Leviticus. Jesus supersedes any other teaching or laws prior to him and I can tell you with good faith that he would have nothing to do with the judgmental laws of Leviticus. Jesus was loving and accepting of everyone, he was sent by God for the very reason that the strict sinless lifestyle put forward by Leviticus was impossible for humanity to follow. All are sinners in their own way.

Quote from: dalebert on August 09, 2012, 09:29:25 PM
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FMeYL4.jpg&hash=334dc91fddb4b32d5edf2b74de48032e72b6cf01)

I need to have this on a nice giant sized poster :) Nice picture!

Quote from: MariaMx on August 09, 2012, 06:07:59 PM
You are missing the point here. I am talking about people that don't believe, and belief in something is not something that can be chosen, therefore people can I limited the scope of my argument to the unbeliever for simplicities sake, but since you mention it, does god differentiate between the unbeliever, the murderer, the thief and the liar? Or is it eternal hell fire for all?

To answer the question of differentiation, here's a verse that might clarify...

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Rev 21:8)

According to this verse, not only are those who do not believe condemned, but those who are afraid to confess, afraid to believe are also condemned.  According to the Bible, if you've offended in one point, you've broken all of God's law.  It seems to be a true/false, on/off classification, rather than a good enough/bad enough classification for the deservification (<-- new word) of hell.

Hope


Edit:  Ugh - how did I not see a whole 'nother page of replies before this one!  Doesn't look like the conversation is still within this context.  Oh well!

Quote from: Incarnadine on September 11, 2012, 11:18:17 AM
Edit:  Ugh - how did I not see a whole 'nother page of replies before this one!  Doesn't look like the conversation is still within this context.  Oh well!

Ha-ha! >:-) Thanks for the reply anyway  :angel: