Susan's Place Transgender Resources

do people really feel like either sex internally ? to me ive always just seen it as what you'rephysically comfortable with being  and wether the brain and the physical body are in harmony and if they arent generally you seek to change them to feel comfortable

but when it comes down to it i've never internally seen myself as " male" or " female " internally  from a physcological aspect
i dont really know if i believe there is a male or a female brain but i do believe the the brain has a associtation to the physical body and its functions  and believe sometims the associaion hasb een wired   to  have a female body and its functions when you feel you are biologically male or vice versa

i feel too many transgender stories focus on things like " i liked to play with barbies as a child and wanted to wear dresses " i see those things just as social construct and not something thats inate

but the associate with your physical body and wether you feel its in harmony with your mind is something thats inate and youre born with

sorry if this didnt make any sense :P

Quotei feel too many transgender stories focus on things like " i liked to play with barbies as a child and wanted to wear dresses " i see those things just as social construct and not something thats inate

Lol, well personally I feel like too many people are trying to reduce transition into a purely cosmetic procedure in order to qualify an innate masculinity.  ::)

Quote from: pretty on July 06, 2012, 01:27:04 AM
Lol, well personally I feel like too many people are trying to reduce transition into a purely cosmetic procedure in order to qualify an innate masculinity.  ::)

the things that are deemed feminine or mauscline in terms of dress etc  variate between cultures in the west for years its generally been seen that wearing jewellery is ' feminine "

http://wwwdelivery.superstock.com/WI/223/1890/PreviewComp/SuperStock_1890-29605.jpg (http://wwwdelivery.superstock.com/WI/223/1890/PreviewComp/SuperStock_1890-29605.jpg) but in other cultures  thats entirely unrelated to if your a " man" or a woman"

Honestly, I've never really seen myself as male or female. I've always just been me. And I happen to be fairly boyish, with girly tendencies. I've never played with Barbies, I've never really wanted to wear dresses that badly (though I've always liked girls' shorts and shirts). But I'm just not really comfortable with a male body. Mentally, I'm a little androgynous, and though being male doesn't really clash with my personality, it does clash with how I feel I should be.

 I'm not sure if I'm mentally male or female, but I'm more comfortable being female. Therefore, transition has been and will continue to be, in all probability, beneficial to me. I prefer being female, and I enjoy being feminine.

I have always just sort of been... never acted out gender stereotypes.

I am me, in the end, and a part of "me" is doing what makes me happy. I'm not sure anything else matters in this case.

Quote from: mementomori on July 06, 2012, 01:32:01 AM
the things that are deemed feminine or mauscline in terms of dress etc  variate between cultures in the west for years its generally been seen that wearing jewellery is ' feminine "

http://wwwdelivery.superstock.com/WI/223/1890/PreviewComp/SuperStock_1890-29605.jpg (http://wwwdelivery.superstock.com/WI/223/1890/PreviewComp/SuperStock_1890-29605.jpg) but in other cultures  thats entirely unrelated to if your a " man" or a woman"

If you happen to locate a culture where the women are the aggressive, dominant, territorial providers and the men stay home, beautify themselves and do the crafts and child rearing I'll be pretty legitimately taken by surprise.  :D

I don't see how it is any different in tribal Africa, which is about as remote a culture you can get from any other culture in the world, where the men make weapons and hunt and go through rites of bravery, and the women make crafts and food and compete over beauty.

But honestly I feel like this is a seriously silly thing to need to establish because, are there actually people that believe it's just a coincidence of culture that if I ask you which gender likes power tools and explosions more you immediately know the answer?

Really I just wanna puke when people tell me I like the things I like because culture says women are supposed to like that. As if I could just be raised into liking sports and sports cars. Well ya know what? I was raised into that and I don't and never did like them at all.

Quote from: pretty on July 06, 2012, 01:52:28 AM
If you happen to locate a culture where the women are the aggressive, dominant, territorial providers and the men stay home, beautify themselves and do the crafts and child rearing I'll be pretty legitimately taken by surprise.  :D

I don't see how it is any different in tribal Africa, which is about as remote a culture you can get from any other culture in the world, where the men make weapons and hunt and go through rites of bravery, and the women make crafts and food and compete over beauty.

But honestly I feel like this is a seriously silly thing to need to establish because, are there actually people that believe it's just a coincidence of culture that if I ask you which gender likes power tools and explosions more you immediately know the answer?

Really I just wanna puke when people tell me I like the things I like because culture says women are supposed to like that. As if I could just be raised into liking sports and sports cars. Well ya know what? I was raised into that and I don't and never did like them at all.

there a a lot of cisgendered females that hate the things you just described about female cultural constructs and behaviour but love being female physically and males who wants to make crafts and compete over beauty that like having a male body

youre describing social constructs , i think transition should be looked at " if they social constructs were removed would i still desire my body to be this way "then if so yes defiantly do it

but you dont change your body to conform to society and to be able to behave or live youre life a certain way thats considered socially innapropriate for your sex

there are also transwomen who hate makeup and dresses but feel like they always were meant to be physically female because of a incongruity between their brain and body
i just think gender dysphoria / ->-bleeped-<- is a lot more than socially constructed behaviour and dress habits
a lot of those behavrious your described are based around the breeding rituals and habits of ancient man as a modern society i feel like were beyond those things 

Quote from: mementomori on July 06, 2012, 02:01:38 AM
there a a lot of cisgendered females that hate the things you just described about female cultural constructs and behaviour but love being female physically and males who wants to make crafts compete over beauty and compete over beauty that like having a male body

youre describing social constructs , i think transition should be looked at " if they social constructs were removed would i still desire my body to be this way "then if so yes defiantly do it

but you dont change your body to conform to society and to be able to behave or live youre life a certain way thats considered socially innapropriate for youre sex

there are also transwomen who hate makeup and dresses but feel like they always were meant to be physically female because of a incongruity between their brain and body
i just think gender dysphoria / ->-bleeped-<- is a lot more than socially constructed behaviour and dress habits
a lot of those behavrious your described are based around the breeding rituals and habits of ancient man as a modern society i feel like were beyond those things

Well you're kind of making my point here. You can't raise cis women into liking a specific thing just because they should and you can't raise cis men into liking a specific thing just because they should.

People just like what they like.

Then we can define things as masculine or feminine (and to what degree) by looking at aggregate data of what men and women happen to like.

:)

A lot of people get confused over the idea that "well women don't ALWAYS like such and such which is a feminine thing." But that's not the point, the point is that women are more likely to like a thing that is feminine (that's why it is feminine), and women on average like more feminine things than they do masculine things.

This even applies to things that are not on a level of being culturally obvious. For example, reading fiction novels is encouraged equally in both sexes, but women are a slight majority among readers of fiction novels.

Idk, am I the only trans person that gets this? I'm pretty sure this is pretty well accepted stuff. Among laymen and behavioral sciencey people alike.

Quote from: pretty on July 06, 2012, 02:14:57 AM
Idk, am I the only trans person that gets this? I'm pretty sure this is pretty well accepted stuff. Among laymen and behavioral sciencey people alike.

Many trans people would rather believe that masculine and feminine are more construct than natural for a number of reasons. To justify one's own masculinity (assuming MtF), for example, or for the sake of feminism, or just because, being gender renegades, one feels that he or she should have atypical views on gender...

Quote from: Kelly J. P. on July 06, 2012, 02:20:44 AM
Many trans people would rather believe that masculine and feminine are more construct than natural for a number of reasons. To justify one's own masculinity (assuming MtF), for example, or for the sake of feminism, or just because, being gender renegades, one feels that he or she should have atypical views on gender...

Well, no, I totally understand why someone would want to believe it, but at the same time I don't think it is fair to treat it as a reality when there's no real precedent for its truthfulness and also when it makes light of the experiences of trans people who have suffered severe distress as a result of being placed in a gender role that was very seriously in contrast with their own personality.

I feel like I can't make that point to people because if you don't know how it feels to live your whole life being told you're not allowed to be the kind of person you are, and to feel firsthand the kind of personal and emotional isolation that that causes, then you probably won't take it seriously when other people say that that was their experience.  :(

Quote from: pretty on July 06, 2012, 02:27:53 AM
Well, no, I totally understand why someone would want to believe it, but at the same time I don't think it is fair to treat it as a reality when there's no real precedent for its truthfulness and also when it makes light of the experiences of trans people who have suffered severe distress as a result of being placed in a gender role that was very seriously in contrast with their own personality.

I feel like I can't make that point to people because if you don't know how it feels to live your whole life being told you're not allowed to be the kind of person you are, and to feel firsthand the kind of personal and emotional isolation that that causes, then you probably won't take it seriously when other people say that that was their experience.  :(

people can feel distress about being put in a gender role thats wrong for them mentally but at the same not feel uncomfortable with their biological sex / genitals etc

i mean just look at someone like holly woodlawn she has lived her entire life socially and culturally as a woman but wouldnt want srs if you payed her to do it and actually stopped taking hormones becuase it distressed her when she could no longer get erections

gender ismt  binary thats all im saying its a lot moe complicated than it appears and everyone over simplifies it

 I would assume it's not treated as a reality, but rather as theoretical knowledge, or opinion. The expression of that opinion is a way to test or temper the theory. Because of this, then ... most probably understand your point.

... In theory. :P

Of course, I could be wrong... it's possible that people see their beliefs as [universal] truth. I don't really know, but when I have views I could disclaim all of them with the word "probably".

I'm glad I wasn't put into strict gender roles. I grew up, and all I did was play with my sister and do good in school. And listen to emo music.

Quote from: Kelly J. P. on July 06, 2012, 02:20:44 AM
Many trans people would rather believe that masculine and feminine are more construct than natural for a number of reasons. To justify one's own masculinity (assuming MtF), for example, or for the sake of feminism, or just because, being gender renegades, one feels that he or she should have atypical views on gender...

i dont just " want' to believe it , i do believe it , im sure there are a lot of people who dont have gender dysphoria about their physical bodies but repress desires to act out behaviour or dress thant stereotypically associated with the opposie sex

what im saying this behavior / social construct and wether you like it or not is irrelevant to wether or not you feel incongruity with your brain and your physical body

im sure there are lots of people who have misassociated a distate for the gender role society has constructed for them and projected it onto a distain for their physical bodies ,

but then there are people who regardless of gender roles , have a mistmatch between their brain and the wiring/ association of it to their physical bodies

but at the end of the day i dont think it really matters as long as people find a place/ a point they get to where they can be happy

Quote from: mementomori on July 06, 2012, 02:35:11 AM
people can feel distress about being put in a gender role thats wrong for them mentally but at the same not feel uncomfortable with their biological sex / genitals etc

i mean just look at someone like holly woodlawn she has lived her entire life socially and culturally as a woman but wouldnt want srs if you payed her to do it and actually stopped taking hormones becuase it distressed her when she could no longer get erections

gender ismt  binary thats all im saying its a lot moe complicated than it appears and everyone over simplifies it

Well, honestly, on the more strictly physical side, I think you're getting into issues that, while they do exist, are not encompassed by the definition of GID and are not what GID was defined in response to. 

You can't really call it "gender identity disorder" if there is no issue with gender identity. Then it's BDD, or something in that vein.

Quote from: pretty on July 06, 2012, 02:51:25 AM
Well, honestly, on the more strictly physical side, I think you're getting into issues that, while they do exist, are not encompassed by the definition of GID and are not what GID was defined in response to. 

You can't really call it "gender identity disorder" if there is no issue with gender identity. Then it's BDD, or something in that vein.

so what youe saying is you could have gender identity disorder while feeling completely ok with your physical body , wouldnt that make it more a social thing though than a physical thing ?

i mean what about a transwomen who wants to shave her head and wear bike boots/ spikes and lots of leather . but has always felt gender dysphoria about having a male body and felt it was supposed to be female so has surgically corrected herself

generally i thought the idea was being born the wrong sex for the mental wiring of your body , not a socially percieved idea of gender normal behaviour and dress

for example my aunt is obssesed with v8 cars she has won body building competitions and never wears makeup and lives in shorts/ pants and singlets

she is a cisgendered women doesnt feel as though she is a man in a womans body becuase she doesnt fit the social construct of a what a woman is supposed to be

Quote from: mementomori on July 06, 2012, 01:13:57 AM
do people really feel like either sex internally ? to me ive always just seen it as what you'rephysically comfortable with being  and wether the brain and the physical body are in harmony and if they arent generally you seek to change them to feel comfortable

but when it comes down to it i've never internally seen myself as " male" or " female " internally  from a physcological aspect
i dont really know if i believe there is a male or a female brain but i do believe the the brain has a associtation to the physical body and its functions  and believe sometims the associaion hasb een wired   to  have a female body and its functions when you feel you are biologically male or vice versa

i feel too many transgender stories focus on things like " i liked to play with barbies as a child and wanted to wear dresses " i see those things just as social construct and not something thats inate

but the associate with your physical body and wether you feel its in harmony with your mind is something thats inate and youre born with

sorry if this didnt make any sense :P

I'm up there with you. I'm not really sure how you can be mentally male or female.

If you're biologically male isn't all your behavior, by default, male behavior? Even if you put on pink dresses that behavior still would be male wouldn't it? And vice versa

Quote from: pretty on July 06, 2012, 02:14:57 AM
Well you're kind of making my point here. You can't raise cis women into liking a specific thing just because they should and you can't raise cis men into liking a specific thing just because they should.

People just like what they like.

Then we can define things as masculine or feminine (and to what degree) by looking at aggregate data of what men and women happen to like.

:)

A lot of people get confused over the idea that "well women don't ALWAYS like such and such which is a feminine thing." But that's not the point, the point is that women are more likely to like a thing that is feminine (that's why it is feminine), and women on average like more feminine things than they do masculine things.

This even applies to things that are not on a level of being culturally obvious. For example, reading fiction novels is encouraged equally in both sexes, but women are a slight majority among readers of fiction novels.

Idk, am I the only trans person that gets this? I'm pretty sure this is pretty well accepted stuff. Among laymen and behavioral sciencey people alike.

Hmm, this is interesting. So, in your eyes, what sort of change should transition be? Or what causes people to transition?

I mean it can't be purely physical, that's BDD and BDD and gender dysporia are eerily similar. However, the mental health professional doesn't entertain the patients very skewed ideas about their body image.

Would it be social? But I have a hard time believing that there is something in the brain that is just hard wired to be called "she". We have an amazing ability to learn language when born, but we don't come with a dictionary in English inside telling us what she and her and girl things even mean.

Is it sexual? For some, I think yes, even for some here. However, if they get to the point where they're on hrt, I think this no longer becomes an issue as the death of their libido will have them off hrt very soon.

Internalized misogyny/homophobia/misandry? Too simplistic, and participate in a "blame the victim" mentality.

Feel free to correct, since, as psychology has shown us, hardly any of it is "hard science".

I think there's no one defining characteristic for transition, because there are so many different kinds of woman (we're talking MTF here, so I'm talking about women).

I experience myself 'somatically' as female (by which I mean that my mind feels me as having a female body - kind of hard to explain), and I'm helping my body to catch up with that by transitioning.

But I'm neither masculine nor feminine in my sense of self, I'm kind of a dykey boyish woman (this is why I coined the term Womandrogyne for myself :)) and I like the things I like. Some of them are more commonly liked by women than by men, some the other way around. As for clothes, I like women's clothes in the same way many other bi-lesbian women do - I wear women's clothes but they're not feminine.

Femininity doesn't define a woman, being a woman does that, and there are so many ways to be a woman.

Quote from: pretty on July 06, 2012, 01:52:28 AM
If you happen to locate a culture where the women are the aggressive, dominant, territorial providers and the men stay home, beautify themselves and do the crafts and child rearing I'll be pretty legitimately taken by surprise.  :D

The one I grew up in. I'm really tired of people acting like it doesn't exist or that it's so surprising. I wouldn't say it's particularly desirable (some aspects are, some not), but I used to think it was the same in all the western countries and I still find it shocking that it's not. (Financially, not many people can afford to stay home though.)
Not to mention that what you described is very prevalent in many mythologies although that's more in individuals and archetypes than the culture. Also many war goddesses were less providers and more homicidal maniacs (ex: Sekhmet). That and craftsmen include blacksmiths.

It wasn't Sekhmet's fault - she was written that way :).

Mentally female? ... Mentally the female 'I' happen to be. Neither butch nor über-femme, neither MtF (God help me!), thank you, but no thank you.

It's simply that we are really who we are - whatever THAT is.

Would I want to be a man? No thank you, too.

Does THAT make me mentally female? Um, I guess so - otherwise I would not have gone and get SRS.

In this context one of those 'clever folks' had it that for me to transition was the 'ultimate' challenge :) Hear, hear!

Comment by my ex's 2nd husband: "Challenges stop for me when it means to have my dick cut off..."
So ... I guess in his case he be considered mentally male then, eh?

Mentally Axélle ;)

While I want others to see me as female, I would probably usually fall into the category of being mentally a "thing" as that is how I mostly see myself.  Its why I don't date nor do I run around proclaiming that I am a woman to people. I don't get into the whole gender role stuff as I just do what I want or need to do and that could easily involve things of either typical stereotype.

Quote from: Jaime on July 06, 2012, 10:47:41 AM
While I want others to see me as female, I would probably usually fall into the category of being mentally a "thing" as that is how I mostly see myself.  Its why I don't date nor do I run around proclaiming that I am a woman to people. I don't get into the whole gender role stuff as I just do what I want or need to do and that could easily involve things of either typical stereotype.

Good standpoint, good answer, I can relate - a lot.

Axélle

People make up stories about who and how they are, weaving memories and information together, they craft narratives of their lives and identity to understand themselves and to explain themselves to others. They aren't really right or wrong, they just are.

By the time someone decides to transition, I'm not sure what the story is that got them there really matters, just that the story exists.

Quote from: Sarah7 on July 06, 2012, 11:45:55 AM
People make up stories about who and how they are, weaving memories and information together, they craft narratives of their lives and identity to understand themselves and to explain themselves to others. They aren't really right or wrong, they just are.

By the time someone decides to transition, I'm not sure what the story is that got them there really matters, just that the story exists.

I completely agree. I think that, in a way, we have great control over shaping and changing our own realities and identities to fill deeper desires and..."wants".

Regardless of that, I feel we get too hung up on making sure that only true transsexuals transition.

Just one problem with that, there is no marker for a  "true" (so to speak) transsexual. There is a general outline, and if you feel that you fit that, then have at it. I really don't understand some posters preoccupations in making transsexuals be some sort of "elite" group, where only a few qualify.

What are you worried about? That a few bad apples will ruin everyone else's perception of you? Well, guess what, if you are so different from those "bad apples" (as you claim you are) than when others meet you and possibly become aware of what you are, they will be even more flabbergasted.

Hey, they might even bow to your awesomeness  ::).

Quote from: Edge on July 06, 2012, 06:09:43 AM
The one I grew up in. I'm really tired of people acting like it doesn't exist or that it's so surprising. I wouldn't say it's particularly desirable (some aspects are, some not), but I used to think it was the same in all the western countries and I still find it shocking that it's not. (Financially, not many people can afford to stay home though.)
Not to mention that what you described is very prevalent in many mythologies although that's more in individuals and archetypes than the culture. Also many war goddesses were less providers and more homicidal maniacs (ex: Sekhmet). That and craftsmen include blacksmiths.

Really? Well please do tell me more about your culture  :)

Quote from: mementomori on July 06, 2012, 03:09:42 AM
so what youe saying is you could have gender identity disorder while feeling completely ok with your physical body , wouldnt that make it more a social thing though than a physical thing ?

i mean what about a transwomen who wants to shave her head and wear bike boots/ spikes and lots of leather . but has always felt gender dysphoria about having a male body and felt it was supposed to be female so has surgically corrected herself

generally i thought the idea was being born the wrong sex for the mental wiring of your body , not a socially percieved idea of gender normal behaviour and dress

for example my aunt is obssesed with v8 cars she has won body building competitions and never wears makeup and lives in shorts/ pants and singlets

she is a cisgendered women doesnt feel as though she is a man in a womans body becuase she doesnt fit the social construct of a what a woman is supposed to be

Well no, in that case you would not feel okay with your body, at the very least because your body/appearance is what causes the wrong gender role to be imposed onto you.

A mis-assignment of a socially perceived idea of gender is exactly what GID was described in order to address in the first place and that is still a requirement in the diagnostic criteria for it. That is the essence of GID. If your aunt does not experience any distress from living as a female then of course she doesn't have a disorder. People respond differently to being outside the norm and it also varies by how much they are prevented from expressing themselves as a result.

Like, if your aunt were banned from her bodybuilding championships simply because she was a woman, for example, then she might experience some GID-like distress from that. Especially if she were also laughed out of car dealerships and forced by her family to wear skirts and frilly tops.  :-\

Quote from: Adam1 on July 06, 2012, 04:13:39 AM
Would it be social? But I have a hard time believing that there is something in the brain that is just hard wired to be called "she". We have an amazing ability to learn language when born, but we don't come with a dictionary in English inside telling us what she and her and girl things even mean.

Well yes, I think traditionally it is primarily social and other things follow, like the physical.

It's not really about being hard wired to be called "she," but about natural preferences and how they end up working in society relative to other people's natural preferences. The "she" comes from a realization of mental similarity to women instead of men. 

For example, if person A likes scrapbooking, creative writing, home decorating, soap operas and ballet, then person A is naturally going to find themselves surrounded primarily by women and the people that they have most in common with are going to be women. Don't you think person A would feel weird if person A happened to be a man? Certainly they would notice that they were the odd one out in all or most of their social circles. And it would be made worse if the people in their life prevented them from participating in their interests or pushed them into other things they weren't interested in because they are a man. They might begin to think, "if I had been born as a woman I could be myself and do all the things I like to do and people wouldn't treat me poorly for it," and by extension, "I should have been born as a woman.' Then comes identifying as a woman and wanting to be called she.

Anyway, that kind of situation is what GID describes and that is what pretty much all of its public and societal legitimacy as a major health condition is resting on so  :-\

Quote from: pretty on July 06, 2012, 12:30:51 PM

Anyway, that kind of situation is what GID describes and that is what pretty much all of its public and societal legitimacy as a major health condition is resting on so  :-\

If that's all it's resting on, then "oh my!".

In that case, I am very skeptical of GID as a legitimate disorder and am surprised it's proponents were not laughed out of the DSM meeting all those decades ago.

Quote from: Adam1 on July 06, 2012, 12:39:23 PM
If that's all it's resting on, then "oh my!".

In that case, I am very skeptical of GID as a legitimate disorder and am surprised it's proponents were not laughed out of the DSM meeting all those decades ago.

They probably weren't laughed out of such meetings because they were able to show that there was a percentage of the population that was experiencing severe mental distress and depression as a result of a gender identity that did not match their sex.

Quote from: pretty on July 06, 2012, 12:30:51 PM
Anyway, that kind of situation is what GID describes and that is what pretty much all of its public and societal legitimacy as a major health condition is resting on so  :-\

I thought it was mostly resting on this these days: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html)

And the GID criteria have been altered quite a bit for the new DSM V, in which it's relabeled Gender Dysphoria. You might be surprised - a lot of the criteria refer to physicality.

Quote from: Adam1 on July 06, 2012, 12:02:29 PM
Hey, they might even bow to your awesomeness  ::).

Everyone should totally bow to my awesomeness.

I have concluded that even in a community as diverse and open as Toronto that at least a small part of my transition will be defined by my desire to interact smoothly with the larger 'traditional' slice of the societal pie.  What I am right now has proven to have major limits within that structure.  With humans' well-developed ability to read much about others in a glance it can be important to give off the right queues.  Overall I've been left feeling somewhat invisible or alien to others as an instinctive response through little fault of my own.  If you just saw me in a picture you'd probably think I was a really normal guy, but if you were to 'sense' me in person on the street or in a social environment I believe you would understand.  There most certainly are internal genetic structures which define the average male versus female which can be 'sensed' even though many people in the struggle for social equality would be offended that males and females cannot be 100% interchangeable 100% of the time.

I'd say I'm not a really girly female in my mind and in my style, much like some of the other posters in this thread.  There are also plenty of GGs this way or moreso.  I don't really aim to wear dresses because I don't think it suits my character, just as many women feel.  I've always been attracted to tomboys and punk girls, especially for the way that to me they fit my particular definition of feminine and look so amazing without hyper-feminine clothing or excessive makeup or assessorizing to the max.  I'm wondering now if all along I've also been really jealous of their look because it's similar to what I want to achieve myself.  Personally I don't care to be super-feminine by the current definition - I simply don't want to end up as just a tall, skinny guy with boobs.  I just want to give off the right signals to others when they read me in a glance even if I remain somewhat androgynous in appearance.  I don't see it as 'striking a balance' - I see it as just being natural and true to myself.

All of this goes back to the idea of a female mind.  Beyond the clothes there is a feeling that is really hard to define that comes from dressing the part.  It's a sense of right and familiarity, like how a baby forms an instinctive attachment with and comfort from certain items like a favorite blanket.  When I blend out my male parts and accentuate my female parts I achieve some of this instinctive comfort.  It fires the right neurons in the brain according to a structure that is present.  When I put on a bra and simulate the weight, motion and form of breasts they instinctively feel like a part of me and give me that pleasant response in the mind like a favorite warm blanket.

Overall I don't see how there cannot be certain parts of the brain which are uniquely female from the beginning, given the various sensations and thought patterns I've experienced throughout my life which don't fit the 'male norm'.  Frankly I thought medical science had already proven some of this anyway.  Even if some of this is regulated by hormones there has to be a physical structure driving this in each gender, and we already know that much of this is controlled or 'encouraged' by specific parts of the brain that statistically differ between genders.  Otherwise someone could say one day "I'm now a girl!" and their hormone levels would just magically shift accordingly.  If only!

Quote from: Sarah7 on July 06, 2012, 12:49:44 PM
I thought it was mostly resting on this these days: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html)

And the GID criteria has been altered quite a bit for the new DSM V, in which it's relabeled Gender Dysphoria. You might be surprised - a lot of the criteria refer to physicality.

Well no, you're right, it is resting more explicitly on the brain science. That is its more objective academic legitimacy. By public, I meant that in the public consciousness that translates to a sense of how having a female brain affects the affinities and behavior of a trans person to be more similar to their expressed gender, since yeah, our brain is what is responsible for what kind of person we are.

Quote from: pretty on July 06, 2012, 12:30:51 PM
Really? Well please do tell me more about your culture  :)

Girls are expected to be tomboys. Femininity is sneered on and "girly" is an insult (a big step back for feminism in my opinion). They are very competitive especially when it comes to significant others. They are also rather aggressive and people are as likely to get assaulted by girls as they are by guys.
Most guys I've met are much much more laid back. Dads who don't take care of their children are looked down on (as they should be). Many guys care a lot about their appearance and spend a lot of money and time to look how they want (not just "metrosexuals").
Those are just my experiences though and I maintain that this is just based on the people I knew and that individuals can act however the heck they want.

Quote from: pretty on July 06, 2012, 12:56:12 PM
Well no, you're right, it is resting more explicitly on the brain science. That is its more objective academic legitimacy. By public, I meant that in the public consciousness that translates to a sense of how having a female brain affects the affinities and behavior of a trans person to be more similar to their expressed gender, since yeah, our brain is what is responsible for what kind of person we are.

Is that true? In a weird way my lack of overt femininity seems to make it easier rather than harder for other people to understand. There isn't any way to classify me as "just gay" or "really feminine man" because I don't sleep with guys and I'm not particularly femme... it forces people to see me as me, and what they see is a girl.

I think, frankly, passability is the big key to legitimacy in public consciousness. We are an incredibly image-oriented culture, and if you look like a girl, move like a girl, speak like a girl and smell like a girl - you are a girl. Oh, and it helps if you are hot too.

As much data as the National Center for Transgender Equality wants to spit out, it's the Jenna Talackovas who are winning people over.

Quote from: pretty on July 06, 2012, 12:30:51 PM
For example, if person A likes scrapbooking, creative writing, home decorating, soap operas and ballet, then person A is naturally going to find themselves surrounded primarily by women and the people that they have most in common with are going to be women. Don't you think person A would feel weird if person A happened to be a man? Certainly they would notice that they were the odd one out in all or most of their social circles. And it would be made worse if the people in their life prevented them from participating in their interests or pushed them into other things they weren't interested in because they are a man. They might begin to think, "if I had been born as a woman I could be myself and do all the things I like to do and people wouldn't treat me poorly for it," and by extension, "I should have been born as a woman.' Then comes identifying as a woman and wanting to be called she.

Anyway, that kind of situation is what GID describes and that is what pretty much all of its public and societal legitimacy as a major health condition is resting on so  :-\

GID also makes the distinction between cross-gender identification and wanting advantages of being the other sex:

QuoteTable 3 DSM-IV diagnostic criteria for Gender Identity Disorder (for
children)
A. A strong and persistent cross-gender identification (not merely a
desire for any perceived cultural advantages of being the other sex)
In children, the disturbance is manifested by at least four (or more) of the
following
(1) repeatedly stated desire to be, or insistence that he or she is, the
other sex
(2) in boys, preference for cross-dressing or simulating female attire;
in girls, insistence on wearing only stereotypical masculine
clothing
(3) strong and persistent preferences for cross-sex roles in makebelieve
play or persistent fantasies of being the other sex
(4) intense desire to participate in the stereotypical games and pastimes
of the other sex
(5) strong preference for playmates of the other sex

I think I get the point you're trying to make that women generally prefer feminine pastimes and vice versa. But your post makes it sound as if people develop the desire to be a woman because of feminine interests. Many (if not most) of the world's top hairstylists, fashion and interior designers are men. Why aren't they transitioning?

I would feel really sorry for person A in your example for concluding they're a female based on cultural stereotypes.

Quote from: Sarah7 on July 06, 2012, 01:13:54 PM
Is that true? In a weird way my lack of overt femininity seems to make it easier rather than harder for other people to understand. There isn't any way to classify me as "just gay" or "really feminine man" because I don't sleep with guys and I'm not particularly femme... it forces people to see me as me, and what they see is a girl.

I think, frankly, passability is the big key to legitimacy in public consciousness. We are an incredibly image-oriented culture, and if you look like a girl, move like a girl, speak like a girl and smell like a girl - you are a girl. Oh, and it helps if you are hot too.

As much data as the National Center for Transgender Equality wants to spit out, it's the Jenna Talackovas who are winning people over.

Well, I don't see why it wouldn't be the Jenna Talackovas winning people over  :). There is certainly a difference between an academic and layman approach. I think the superficial follows from the internal though. Femininity and passing go hand in hand, whether it's makeup or mannerisms or overall presentation, and whether or not you believe that physical femininity and passing potential is actually linked to mental femininity. It's easier for people to accept that someone is a woman if they remind them of other women. If they don't remind them of other women, then it feels like a miscategorization.

But yea at the end of the day I am only trying to live in the world that we do live in, where for better or for worse, you've gotta walk the walk for people to believe you.

Quote from: Forum Admin on July 06, 2012, 01:32:02 PM
GID also makes the distinction between cross-gender identification and wanting advantages of being the other sex:

I think I get the point you're trying to make that women generally prefer feminine pastimes and vice versa. But your post makes it sound as if people develop the desire to be a woman because of feminine interests. Many (if not most) of the world's top hairstylists, fashion and interior designers are men. Why aren't they transitioning?

I would feel really sorry for person A in your example for concluding they're a female based on cultural stereotypes.

It's not at all only about interests. Those are just the easiest examples to work with. For me it extends to interests, emotional character and identity, sexuality, etc. It's a general observation of what kind of place I am in when I relate to other people and how that changes based on who those people are. It's a judgment of the real essence of my personality. Not as an arbitrary choice between meaningless binaries but as a real and consistent preference that is in line with and better understood by one group of people.

I think you know pretty clearly what they mean when they say "perceived advantages," and I'm talking about an entirely different thing with the interests. I don't think "fitting in and being accepted and valued as a member of your social group" falls under "perceived cultural advantages of being the other sex."

Quote from: Adam1 on July 06, 2012, 03:55:30 AM
I'm up there with you. I'm not really sure how you can be mentally male or female.

If you're biologically male isn't all your behavior, by default, male behavior? Even if you put on pink dresses that behavior still would be male wouldn't it? And vice versa

And that is the crux of the problem, that some of us are born with a brain that tells us: "our gender is female," when our external genitals are male. This is your gender identity, that is not to be confused with the gender roles imposed or adopted by you or by society at large.

Current bain-imaging techniques indicate that as an AVERAGE the human male and female brain are architectural and operationally different. Some process and architectures are plastic enough so that can be change by "thought management" or by drugs(hormones) and other are fix. Yet the data also clearly shows that a purely female or purely male brains are rare.

Are there any advantages to being female? In western culture at least women are viewed as inferior and it's so entrenched in the cultural language that pointing it out gets you labeled as hysterical, or worse, a man hating feminist dyke. You just have to look at the words that are considered the most vulgar and profane words imaginable...they are all slang terms for female genitalia.

And back to the original point, yes I do think that there are difference between how the male and female brain works, it's been shown that there are differences in the structure of male and female brain and that these differeces are apparent in the transexual population i.e. a MtF will have similat structures to a natal female brain.

One of my core beliefs is that the gender binary has become increasingly meaningless in Western civilization. It's still there, on a superficial level, but men and women are able to forge their own identities. Men can be stay-at-home Dads, women are mostly REQUIRED to work. The hunter/nester dynamic is dead.

I agree with Adam1's view that we shouldn't limit transition to people that fit such a narrow definition. For me, transitioning is an answer to an OVERWHELMING desire to be the opposite gender. Am I that gender already, the stereotypical woman trapped in a man's body? I'm not sure. Blanchard would probably classify me as an autogynophile, but his theories are nonsense. I like hockey, comic books, video games, sci-fi, and plenty of other stereotypical male pastimes, but so do plenty of natal women. I've been called domineering and authoritative, again, traditionally male characteristics, but natal women also hold these traits. In my case they're likely an outgrowth of my disability, which has forced me to work harder for everything I have. There are a plethora of environmental factors that can force either gender to any random interest or character trait.

Stereotypes are not a proper measure for transsexualism because they can fail at the individual level. People should be allowed to define who they are for themselves, whether or not they fit into the norm.

Quote from: pretty on July 06, 2012, 01:33:40 PM

I think you know pretty clearly what they mean when they say "perceived advantages," and I'm talking about an entirely different thing with the interests. I don't think "fitting in and being accepted and valued as a member of your social group" falls under "perceived cultural advantages of being the other sex."

Why not? I don't think they mean just females transitioning for a pay raise if that's what you're getting at.
Cultural advantages could include perceived freedom to wear dresses, pursue feminine interests and date men without ridicule.

Quote from: Forum Admin on July 06, 2012, 03:18:15 PM
Why not? I don't think they mean just females transitioning for a pay raise if that's what you're getting at.
Cultural advantages could include perceived freedom to wear dresses, pursue feminine interests and date men without ridicule.

Could mean those things, but that's pretty obviously not what they were getting at, since if you read a couple lines down, they list preferences for the other sex's stereotypical dress and activities as essential criteria.

Quote from: Edge on July 06, 2012, 01:11:10 PM
Girls are expected to be tomboys. Femininity is sneered on and "girly" is an insult (a big step back for feminism in my opinion). They are very competitive especially when it comes to significant others. They are also rather aggressive and people are as likely to get assaulted by girls as they are by guys.
Most guys I've met are much much more laid back. Dads who don't take care of their children are looked down on (as they should be). Many guys care a lot about their appearance and spend a lot of money and time to look how they want (not just "metrosexuals").
Those are just my experiences though and I maintain that this is just based on the people I knew and that individuals can act however the heck they want.

Oh you're Swedish! Lmao

Well, at least your people have their looks!

Quote from: pretty on July 06, 2012, 03:45:25 PM
Could mean those things, but that's pretty obviously not what they were getting at, since if you read a couple lines down, they list preferences for the other sex's stereotypical dress and activities as essential criteria.

This all seems like a big to do about nothing.

Society, like it always does, will catch up to the notion that people can do whatever to their bodies and just get over it.

Or maybe I'm just an optimist? ;D

Quote from: Adam1 on July 06, 2012, 03:53:40 PM
This all seems like a big to do about nothing.

Society, like it always does, will catch up to the notion that people can do whatever to their bodies and just get over it.

Or maybe I'm just an optimist? ;D

Obv they'll forget about all of this when the cyborg overlords start invading  :D

I want to be able to walk down the street and look people in the eye without women worrying I might hurt them and men sizing me up to see if I might be their competition (I'm fine with female clothing competition, I can be stylish).  I want to look and feel sexy (which might or might not mean girly, but certainly in my case means female bodied).  I want sexual relationships that work properly given my body and its wants, which presently aren't my own.  I want many more strong sharing friendships where I can let myself be emotional if I need to be.  In Guy World I've found these all to be pretty much impossible, except for developing some strong friendships--and mostly I've found I have those with women.  The social advantages of being male don't seem to equal out to these advantages, in my view, not for me.  Plus, this body chafes. 

Some of these are cultural things, others are body things.  I don't know which affected me first but, since society integrates both to some extent, I think we have to deal with both together until society comes to treat them as separate things.

Quote from: pretty on July 06, 2012, 03:59:56 PM
Obv they'll forget about all of this when the cyborg overlords start invading  :D

How did you know!?

Code red! Code red! >:-)

Quote from: Adam1 on July 06, 2012, 03:45:53 PM
Oh you're Swedish! Lmao

Well, at least your people have their looks!

No, I'm Canadian. Still have good looks though. ;)

Quote from: pretty on July 06, 2012, 01:33:40 PM
It's easier for people to accept that someone is a woman if they remind them of other women. If they don't remind them of other women, then it feels like a miscategorization.

Huh, I think I like the practical portion of your argument a lot better. I definitely agree with that. I'm just not sure the superficial does follow from the internal. But then it may be because I didn't have the same experience of having my gender policed so strongly. I was taking figure skating lessons along with the archery and fencing when I was little. I just never really thought much of it, or of being in classes of 95% women through high school and university. I'm still surprised sometimes to find out things I do or ways I act are considered feminine, because I don't really think that much of things in terms of gender.

I mean my mannerisms are inexplicably within female norms apparently, and I don't know why or how I picked them up. It's sort of a creepy thought for me to be honest. I don't much like the idea that I'm preprogrammed to behave a certain way, or that gender is such an overwhelming determinant. That doesn't mean it isn't true though just because I'd rather it wasn't. But I'd like to see a lot more research done on the topic before I'd be willing to cede the point. Interesting argument anyway. :)

Quote from: pretty on July 06, 2012, 03:59:56 PM
Obv they'll forget about all of this when the cyborg overlords start invading  :D

I'm totally planning on being one of the cyborg overlords. I've already got a ton of metal and plastic in my body.  >:-)

Quote from: Edge on July 06, 2012, 04:59:55 PM
No, I'm Canadian. Still have good looks though. ;)

Oh hey, I didn't know you were Canadian. I think as a society we do tend towards being a bit less gendered than most, especially in the urban areas. Your case does sound rather extreme though. Kinda cool to be honest. Though I know how weird it can be to be told there is no difference between genders and then... end up trans. Does your head in a bit.

Quote from: Sarah7 on July 06, 2012, 05:22:08 PM
I'm totally planning on being one of the cyborg overlords. I've already got a ton of metal and plastic in my body.  >:-)

Dream big. The cyborg overlords are going to be working for me.

Quote from: Sarah7 on July 06, 2012, 05:22:08 PMOh hey, I didn't know you were Canadian. I think as a society we do tend towards being a bit less gendered than most, especially in the urban areas. Your case does sound rather extreme though. Kinda cool to be honest. Though I know how weird it can be to be told there is no difference between genders and then... end up trans. Does your head in a bit.

Yep, I'm originally from an urban area although, strangely, it is in the middle of the most conservative province. You're from Canada too?
It sure does my head in.

Quote from: Edge on July 06, 2012, 05:32:48 PM
Dream big. The cyborg overlords are going to be working for me.
Yep, I'm originally from an urban area although, strangely, it is in the middle of the most conservative province. You're from Canada too?
It sure does my head in.

Most conservative province in Canada= oil-rich Alberta non?

Oh, dear I feel so bad for you. That's like being born in Texas.... :-X

Quote from: Edge on July 06, 2012, 05:32:48 PM
Dream big. The cyborg overlords are going to be working for me.
Yep, I'm originally from an urban area although, strangely, it is in the middle of the most conservative province. You're from Canada too?
It sure does my head in.

Umm, I'm not trying to be mean but... Canada still has a male-dominated political system, a primarily male prison population, more men in the work force and a wage gap favoring men over women, with men preferring traditionally male-dominated fields and vice versa for women.

I don't think Canada is really any different than the norm in terms of gender roles  :-X

Quote from: mementomori on July 06, 2012, 01:13:57 AM
i feel too many transgender stories focus on things like " i liked to play with barbies as a child and wanted to wear dresses " i see those things just as social construct and not something thats inate

I guess its because like 95% of the times we need to explain ourself we need to explain ourself in front of cis-gender people how it feel to be a diffrent gender than what your biological sex is or was..

There curious but to be honest I think they never will understand unless they have tried it themself.
So all we can do is to put up exemples they understand.. like
"you know I was like a boy and I liked boyish things and played with the boys bla bla"
its kinda stupid yes But somethimes you need to say it simple to make them understand in the first place..

if a 6 year old ask what math it, you can say math is when you has, 3 appels and then you get 3 more.
Sure that is also math but theres SO MANY kinds of math, But you cant explain that to a 6 year old, he wouldnt understand..

I see it the same way for cis-genders who have lived there whole life in a gender-binary sociaty.

Quote from: pretty on July 06, 2012, 06:13:34 PM
Umm, I'm not trying to be mean but... Canada still has a male-dominated political system, a primarily male prison population, more men in the work force and a wage gap favoring men over women, with men preferring traditionally male-dominated fields and vice versa for women.

I don't think Canada is really any different than the norm in terms of gender roles  :-X

Yeah it does. It is, however, a huge country. I only grew up in one city and, as I said, I am talking about what I observed. I'm sure someone in Toronto has vastly different experiences just like someone from Vancouver or Victoria has vastly different experiences than someone from Saint John or Fredericton and someone from Yellow Knife has vastly different experiences from someone from Montreal.
Actually, I found that the city I grew up is more tolerant in general than the one I currently live in and I currently live in NB which is kind of weird considering AB's reputation and population of loud conservative ninnies.
I think that using gender roles to explain GID doesn't explain anything and makes things worse. But that may just be me because I hate being confused with a tomboy.

Quote from: Edge on July 06, 2012, 06:31:12 PM
I think that using gender roles to explain GID doesn't explain anything and makes things worse. But that may just be me because I hate being confused with a tomboy.

Hmmm, yeah idk.

Ultimately, I believe what I'm saying but then on the other hand, all that really matters is who you are, not what this or that person defines you as. People aren't gonna go around asking, "are you a man? Are you a woman?" They're just gonna make their own conclusions anyway.

So I think even the distinction between tomboy and guy are not that big of a deal if they're similar things. Usually they're not but yea. Really the reason I am going on about how it makes sense to fit in even stereotypically with your gender is because man and woman are words that describe stereotypes in the first place. Like with all stereotypes, only the majority of people fit them, not everyone. I guess I don't know what's so great about the words "man" or "woman" if you're trying to avoid that kind of stereotyping in the first place.

So I do sometimes feel that what people want here is a more just a genderless society, even more than wanting to be a different gender. Sorry if that's a wrong impression though.  :)

Well, personally, I believe there is more to gender than illogical social fads. I want to overthrow the social fads, yes. They're stupid. But I refuse to believe that they define or having any real bearing on gender. Otherwise, that would make me stupid for being trans* and that would make me despise myself.
(Sorry I talk about myself so much.)

Quote from: pretty on July 06, 2012, 06:40:44 PM
Hmmm, yeah idk.

Ultimately, I believe what I'm saying but then on the other hand, all that really matters is who you are, not what this or that person defines you as.

So I think even the distinction between tomboy and guy are not that big of a deal if they're similar things. Usually they're not but yea. Really the reason I am going on about how it makes sense to fit in even stereotypically with your gender is because man and woman are words that describe stereotypes in the first place. Like with all stereotypes, only the majority of people fit them, not everyone. I guess I don't know what's so great about the words "man" or "woman" if you're trying to avoid that kind of stereotyping in the first place.

So I do sometimes feel that what people want here is a more just a genderless society, even more than wanting to be a different gender. Sorry if that's a wrong impression though.  :)

You have confuzzled me today lol!

Maybe it is just a cosmetic change. I think if you have to force yourself to be more girly, then you may be doing it wrong. It should just flow naturally. That's my one criteria for any identification:

Let if flow bee-yotches!^^

Quote from: Edge on July 06, 2012, 05:32:48 PM
Yep, I'm originally from an urban area although, strangely, it is in the middle of the most conservative province. You're from Canada too?
It sure does my head in.

Yes from Canada. I'm from an white, academic, progressive, atheist, upper-middle class family. Both my parents were active in the feminist movement. I think in a weird way they are proud of having a queer trans tomboy daughter, now that they're over the initial shock anyway. Totally gives them a one-up on all their friends. I sprinkle magic liberal-cred pixie dust wherever I go. ;)

(Actually, my parents are pretty much the most awesome parents in the world and I love 'em to death.)

Quote from: pretty on July 06, 2012, 06:40:44 PMI guess I don't know what's so great about the words "man" or "woman" if you're trying to avoid that kind of stereotyping in the first place.

Personally, "woman" is just a word used to describe people with my physical form. Doesn't really mean all that much to me. And, ya, I would prefer a much less rigidly gender-defined world. But then I am my parents' daughter.

As I said before, we all weave our own stories to get us to where we are now. Not sure the form the story takes is all that important, just that it got you here. I'm infinitely happier than I was pre-transition. That's the main thing, nah?

As for the convenience (or comfort) of labels, it amuses me greatly that people who don't understand when I say "I'm female but not feminine" seem greatly relieved if I just tell them I'm basically a dyke - because then they've got a stable mental image to wrap around me ::). It's weird how much people's notion of gender is intertwined with sexuality.

Whoever you think you are, it's never going to be the same as who others think you are, so it's important to prioritise knowing who you are before worrying too much about how you'll be perceived. I gave up "passing" when I stopped trying to be a man. I have a strong appreciation of beauty that many consider a 'feminine trait', but I got it from my dad, perhaps the only positive thing about him was his passion for the lovely (especially in words). To me, the so-called masculine and feminine qualities are just human qualities, and if you're not straight or not cis- or not binary (and I'm none of those), it's easier to jump out of the system (because the system is manifestly not designed with you in mind) and enjoy all the diversity available without feeling obliged to fit.

I do not think the language has yet caught up to what it is we experience being Transgender.  A lot of these terms feel clumsy and inadequate.   When I try to describe what's going on on my brain with my body I find I feel sometimes a horror at it that is untranslatable to someone who hasn't been there.  To know yourself truly and see your body's inability to do anything but betray that knowledge is the everyday struggle.

Society makes it very hard on us because their definitions of gender are so undeveloped.   I think gender identity supercedes expression.  You can be a girl or boy and not express that because of biological incongruities.  But are they incongruities of biology or are they a measurement of the failure of language to give us a safe and dignified space in society?

Quotei feel too many transgender stories focus on things like " i liked to play with barbies as a child and wanted to wear dresses " i see those things just as social construct and not something thats inate

When I was a child, it was the clothing and toys that were so different between boys and girls. I naturally latched on to that, because those were the only things within my power to change. So yes, I dressed like a girl when I could in secret. I loved to play with dolls when I could get away with it.

Now that I'm comfortable. Clothes are of no consequence. My toys are typically male. I don't go for home decorating. I'd rather have a 60 inch flat screen than a new couch. I still eat of cheap dishes. I keep my house clean and well maintained, but it looks like a bachelors den. My hubby digs it.

It's hard to define this thing in terms that we understand. It just is. We either find a way to deal with it or we don't.

Chin up!
Cindi

So Ladies and Gents let me ask what would be your answer if you had to enter a building to save your life, but in order to let you in the gate keeper asks you: "are you female or male?" It makes no difference to him what your answers is as long as it is male or female, he would not question your answer at all, he is just a good bureaucrat that needs to keep a tally. He will not accept answer like: agender, gender fluid, and androgynous, etc

What would your answer be?  What do you base your answer on?

Quote from: peky on July 07, 2012, 09:23:33 AM
So Ladies and Gents let me ask what would be your answer if you had to enter a building to save your life, but in order to let you in the gate keeper asks you: "are you female or male?" It makes no difference to him what your answers is as long as it is male or female, he would not question your answer at all, he is just a good bureaucrat that needs to keep a tally. He will not accept answer like: agender, gender fluid, and androgynous, etc

What would your answer be?  What do you base your answer on?

Male. I would base it on my biological sex.

Quote from: peky on July 07, 2012, 09:23:33 AM
So Ladies and Gents let me ask what would be your answer if you had to enter a building to save your life, but in order to let you in the gate keeper asks you: "are you female or male?" It makes no difference to him what your answers is as long as it is male or female, he would not question your answer at all, he is just a good bureaucrat that needs to keep a tally. He will not accept answer like: agender, gender fluid, and androgynous, etc

What would your answer be?  What do you base your answer on?

Female.

I am legally female. I am perceived as female. My body is as close an approximation to female as medical science currently can manage. As far as I'm concerned I was born a transsexual female - a female with a defect. The defect can be managed, but not entirely cured. My XY genes (assuming I have 'em) only imply who I would have been if I hadn't been me.

Note - I'm talking about physical sex. I prefer to leave gender out of it. Gender is just too muddy and complex.

So that's my story. I also have a version of it as a fairytale. It has princesses and knights. It's a better story really.

Quote from: peky on July 07, 2012, 09:23:33 AM
So Ladies and Gents let me ask what would be your answer if you had to enter a building to save your life, but in order to let you in the gate keeper asks you: "are you female or male?" It makes no difference to him what your answers is as long as it is male or female, he would not question your answer at all, he is just a good bureaucrat that needs to keep a tally. He will not accept answer like: agender, gender fluid, and androgynous, etc

What would your answer be?  What do you base your answer on?

I would say female.  But it's silly not to recognize answers outside of the binary.

Quote from: sfgeek on July 06, 2012, 04:00:46 PM
I want to be able to walk down the street and look people in the eye without women worrying I might hurt them and men sizing me up to see if I might be their competition (I'm fine with female clothing competition, I can be stylish).  I want to look and feel sexy (which might or might not mean girly, but certainly in my case means female bodied).  I want sexual relationships that work properly given my body and its wants, which presently aren't my own.  I want many more strong sharing friendships where I can let myself be emotional if I need to be.  In Guy World I've found these all to be pretty much impossible, except for developing some strong friendships--and mostly I've found I have those with women.  The social advantages of being male don't seem to equal out to these advantages, in my view, not for me.  Plus, this body chafes. 

Some of these are cultural things, others are body things.  I don't know which affected me first but, since society integrates both to some extent, I think we have to deal with both together until society comes to treat them as separate things.

This has been my experience EXACTLY!!!

One thing I'd desperately like to be able to change is the instinctive distrust that women have for me because of how men typically behave towards them.  Building functional friendships with women is a major struggle because of this.  I'm sick of being guilty for others' crimes.  Some of this is societal but some has been bred into the human species through thousands of years of reinforcement.  I personally do not aspire to be like a typical male and I can't understand why they want to behave the way they do (other than they can't help themselves).  The closest thing I can equate this to as a comparable example is my complete disconnect from and lack of understanding of organised religion and the need to believe in a god.  In analysing my disconnect from male behavior I then began to understand my connections to female behavior.  This opened the door to a complete understanding of how all of my interactions with both genders worked or didn't and exactly why.

Fun fact:  Reading this thread while you're still trying to sort everything out in your head is a terrible idea.  Yay, downward spiral of self-doubt!

Quote from: Molly on July 09, 2012, 12:35:40 AM
Fun fact:  Reading this thread while you're still trying to sort everything out in your head is a terrible idea.  Yay, downward spiral of self-doubt!

I am enamored with your mentality - what on earth does that say about me?!?  queue downward spiral

ZEN ANSWER:
There is no right answer generally, only the right answer for you.
To find the right answer for you, requires the right question to begin with.
Sometimes the right question is no question at all.

PHILOSOPHER ANSWER:
I always worry when I see these two letters in the middle of a question: "or".
At least English is ambiguous this way:
1. "or" can mean "it has to be one of these two things. pick one".
2. "or" can mean "it could be this one. it could be that one. it could be both or neither. so do tell."
3. "or" can mean "it could be anywhere along this range of values between the two extremes I mention. where on the range does it fall?"
3. "or" can even mean "one aspect of the thing is a range of variation between these two extremes. Where on that range is the thing in regards to this aspect, and is this aspect dependent or independent of other variables, and if so which and in what way?"
4. A question that doesn't use a qualifier for time, for example "right now" may have a built in assumption that what they are asking is timeless and unchanging.

MEDIATOR ANSWER:
I suspect most of our debate on this kind of question isn't about the answers, but on the unspoken assumption that each of us makes about the meaning of the question. Maybe we can draw out what the question means to each of us and why so we don't talk over each others' answers and deny each others' unique experiences.

GIRL WHO JUST LOVES EVERYBODY ANSWER:
I'm guessing:
Some of us have a brain that is clearly male or clearly female in most if not all aspects.
Some of us have a brain that is a mix of clearly male aspects and clearly female aspects.
Some of us have a brain that is a mix of clearly male aspects and androgynous aspects.
Some of us have a brain that is a mix of clearly female aspects and androgynous aspects.
Some of us have a brain that is androgynous in most if not all aspects.
Some of us have a brain that has aspects that oscillate between male and female.
Some of us have a brain that has aspects that oscillate between male and androgynous.
some of us have a brain that has aspects that oscillate between female and androgynous.
Some of us have a brain that has aspects that fluctuate along the male to female spectrum in unpredictable ways.
All I have said is a gross simplification.
Some of us say that female and male matter, but only in the context of the whole person and the details of their life.
Some of us disagree on what female or male or androgynous etc mean, and use our unique brain, in its present moment, with its unique memory and experience, to decide this for ourselves, or to chose not to decide.
Some of us have heard enough contradictory statements that we just want to forget about the categories and just be.
And some of us are quite confused.
That's all pretty great, if you ask me.

Queue upward spiral of self-affirmation!

Quote from: MadelineB on July 09, 2012, 01:18:25 AM
And some of us are quite confused.
That's all pretty great, if you ask me.

"Life - real life - is a big mess. Thank goodness. And every answer spawns another question; and every question blossoms with a hundred different answers; and if you're lucky you'll always feel somewhat confused."

- Constance, Goodnight Desdemona (Good Morning Juliet) by Ann-Marie MacDonald

Quote from: Molly on July 09, 2012, 12:35:40 AM
Fun fact:  Reading this thread while you're still trying to sort everything out in your head is a terrible idea.  Yay, downward spiral of self-doubt!

We hurt because we love. (Except me; I'm just a brat.)

I.e. Feel free to ignore everyone else when making the decision whether or not to transition. I did.

I think my brain just exploded ???

One of the biggest sticking points I've had these last few months is whether or not I am mentally male, or mentally female.  It's a really difficult knot to untie.  While I lean towards being mentally male, I don't feel masculine in any real respect.  My internal compass points decidedly feminine.  I feel feminine.  Except my way of thinking and approaching situations seems to be on the male side of things; I inherently understand what makes men tick (perhaps that's thanks to the testosterone?).  But I don't relate to this sense of maleness, and I don't feel like a man.  In a room full of guys, I feel like a girl.  My nature just seems kindred with that of women.  It's where I get the sense that I belong, where I feel at ease—while with men (for the most part), I am on constantly edge, sort of on the outside looking in.  But at the same time, as much as I empathize with women, in many ways they baffle me.  I'd like to think I understand more about women than the average cis-male, but that doesn't make them any less enigmatic.   As though I was born with only half the decoder.  But all that said, I still wish I had been born a girl.  Because in the end, something about being male just seems, I don't know... wrong.

TL;DR:  I need to lie down.  I think I just broke a synapse.

Quote from: pretty on July 06, 2012, 02:14:57 AM


Idk, am I the only trans person that gets this? I'm pretty sure this is pretty well accepted stuff. Among laymen and behavioral sciencey people alike.

I am right there with you on this.

Quote from: Kelly J. P. on July 06, 2012, 02:20:44 AM
Many trans people would rather believe that masculine and feminine are more construct than natural for a number of reasons. To justify one's own masculinity (assuming MtF), for example, or for the sake of feminism, or just because, being gender renegades, one feels that he or she should have atypical views on gender...

Yes, I think a lot of trans women would rather believe that men and women are exactly the same because they feel that believing that brings them a lot closer to their goals O_o .  And what you said.

Quote from: Sarah7 on July 06, 2012, 11:45:55 AM
People make up stories about who and how they are, weaving memories and information together, they craft narratives of their lives and identity to understand themselves and to explain themselves to others. They aren't really right or wrong, they just are.

I totally agree and especially with the aspect that transitioners are trying to make sense of the past in order to explain themselves - to themselves.  Because being born with GID is such a conundrum and there tends to be a lot of self doubt one has to work through.

Quote from: Sarah7 on July 06, 2012, 11:45:55 AM
By the time someone decides to transition, I'm not sure what the story is that got them there really matters, just that the story exists.

Or more importantly that they got there.  And perhaps the story was a way to communicate their needs to themselves.

Everything you said seems right to me, I just wanted to add my thoughts.

Quote from: sfgeek on July 06, 2012, 04:00:46 PM
I want to be able to walk down the street and look people in the eye without women worrying I might hurt them and men sizing me up to see if I might be their competition (I'm fine with female clothing competition, I can be stylish).  I want to look and feel sexy (which might or might not mean girly, but certainly in my case means female bodied).  I want sexual relationships that work properly given my body and its wants, which presently aren't my own.  I want many more strong sharing friendships where I can let myself be emotional if I need to be.  In Guy World I've found these all to be pretty much impossible, except for developing some strong friendships--and mostly I've found I have those with women.  The social advantages of being male don't seem to equal out to these advantages, in my view, not for me.  Plus, this body chafes. 

Some of these are cultural things, others are body things.  I don't know which affected me first but, since society integrates both to some extent, I think we have to deal with both together until society comes to treat them as separate things.

I wasn't able to understand this sort of stuff until I finally admitted to myself that I might have GID.  Then after I had been exploring transition for a while I began to be able to make sense of my situation and my needs and I would have been better able to express them like you did here.

It took me longer to realize that my social situation/needs were a result of my body being wrong.  I didn't understand other trans women who expressed dissatisfaction with their bodies or genitals until I finally came upon the realization that my genitals had taken my female life away from me or 'my' life.  Does that make me stupid or slow?  Perhaps.

Quote from: Molly on July 09, 2012, 11:35:01 AM
One of the biggest sticking points I've had these last few months is whether or not I am mentally male, or mentally female.  It's a really difficult knot to untie.  While I lean towards being mentally male, I don't feel masculine in any real respect.  My internal compass points decidedly feminine.  I feel feminine.  Except my way of thinking and approaching situations seems to be on the male side of things; I inherently understand what makes men tick (perhaps that's thanks to the testosterone?).  But I don't relate to this sense of maleness, and I don't feel like a man.  In a room full of guys, I feel like a girl.  My nature just seems kindred with that of women.  It's where I get the sense that I belong, where I feel at ease—while with men (for the most part), I am on constantly edge, sort of on the outside looking in.  But at the same time, as much as I empathize with women, in many ways they baffle me.  I'd like to think I understand more about women than the average cis-male, but that doesn't make them any less enigmatic.   As though I was born with only half the decoder.  But all that said, I still wish I had been born a girl.  Because in the end, something about being male just seems, I don't know... wrong.

TL;DR:  I need to lie down.  I think I just broke a synapse.

Part of what gives us our sense of who we are is our situation.  When I am around my parents I begin to feel like I (the female) am dying and like the corpse (the male) is being exhumed and dragged around.  It is because my parents (accepting as they are) think of me as their son who transitioned, rather than as the woman I am.  I can only tolerate being around them for short amounts of time because of this.  When I was more early in transition I would suffer for weeks after being around them for hours.

Needing to transition equals being in a wrong situation.  Our situation gives us a sense of who we are, in ways we are probably not even aware of.  Also many of us have a sense of obligation due to our situation, an obligation to respond a certain way.  I think that is what kills me around my parents.

For myself transition seemed really scary and uncertain.  There was no guarantee that I would ever be able to function in Society as female.  There was no guarantee that people would "accept" me.  Also I remembered thinking, "What are the odds that I have GID?"  I seemed too average, too poor and too un-famous to be trans.  I remembered thinking that only television people could transition, only television people rose above the mundane.  How could I be like that?  There was no way I could ever even afford to transition let alone what were the chances someone ordinary like me could have GID?

As men and as women we are what we do.

When you are following your path, the path or life that is right, you will know it.  Certainty comes from experience.  As long as transition remains a couch trip it will always be debatable.  But once you begin making progress and having experiences you will soon be able to ascertain whether transition is right or wrong for you.  Experience is also the way to conquer fear.  If you never make any mistakes you aren't trying hard enough.  Do.  Don't think, do.  Then you will know.

I have always been female, as I was born intersex.  My parents were not conducive to my transitioning when I was young, as they were conservative, so I had to put on this "male" role for 3/4 of my life.  I learned how to act like a guy, but I never was able to have male/male normal relationship.  I was not gay, so it made life very difficult, especially since i did not know anything about sports, and most adolescent boys interact with sports and then girls.  I was totally screwed, because I am a bi female.

I have a little (?) problem with ALL of this... how does one KNOW the difference of: mentally "male" or mentally "female "  ???

As it happens, we ONLY can really know who we are. Ever. And we can make projections from what we see and perceive about what others SEEM to be.

I spoke to one married young woman early during transition about this "feeling female" situation. Guess what? The only time SHE actually felt 'female' was when she dolled up and very purposefully PROJECTED a female image. Only THEN.
Otherwise she was just who ever she was - in her inner self-recognition - just the SELF – no EGO involved. Period.

BTW, the exact same I can tell for myself. If I'm all on my own, not dressed, no make-up, just me, just the SELF... I'm just ME, no EGO involved, nothing to show, nothing to project, nothing to prove. Whatever that SELF is... and since GID is gone... I'm right back who I always was - MYSELF! Really.

It can come as some sort of shock, that after ALL this transition stuff – we seem right back to us, to our very own SELF.

One 25 year post-transition woman expressed that same thing to me last year in Phuket and said: "I wonder what all this actually was all about..." And she is a US trained gender psychologist...

I think I know now what she was referring to.

Where does THAT leave 'mentally male/female' I wonder? She was simply female for/to me – and for herself? Just herself, is what I guess. What a PRODUCTION!!! A thousand and one fears and tribulations and in the end... you ARE – who you are. What EVER that happens to be...

ONLY, if I'm stepping out, 'putting on my public persona' then things 'male/female' become apparent. VERY apparent.  So much so, that if I'd look too male to myself, or to others, or God forbid, being sir-ed, then the jig is up, and I'd be most unhappy if it happens. Just the IDEA of Mister, Herr, Sir sends me into a spin, as Mrs, Frau, Ma'am, Madam, is what I want, wish to hear, and expect. Amen.

We have a certain IMAGE of who we wish/perceive to be, based on our 'natural' inclinations, the way we naturally act, naturally present.
If that fits much closer to female THEN one might call this 'mentally female'?

Yet a LOT of the time this passes our consciousness, our awareness. ONLY, if we are VERY self-conscious will this actually come into our AWARENESS.
Like dressed to kill, maybe when flirting, not even sure..., most of the time we are who we are.
If anything, it will be OTHERS that be more of a judge of one's being male/female mentally rather then we ourselves!?

Some MtFs can make for rather embarrassing females/women, not only in looks (my opinion), yes they do --- and then quite some cis-female do quite so as well...

As I said, I got a little problem with this 'mentally male/female' notion...

YMMV,
Axélle

  Mentally Male or female?  To me it is an undefined term like dividing x into zero. 
  Joelene

Quote from: Joelene9 on July 10, 2012, 01:58:18 AM
  Mentally Male or female?  To me it is an undefined term like dividing x into zero. 
  Joelene

Ah, said the astronomer ---or was it 'ass-burger'? 0÷x = ??? :)

Just kidding,
Axélle

http://femmeftm.tumblr.com/ (http://femmeftm.tumblr.com/) this is kind of related to this thread , there a feminine transmen who prefer what society deems as " feminine/ female " clothing but i dont think this makes them any less ftm than a ftm who presents as mauscline

I really don't know how I feel about it. I would like to say I have a female mind just because I deeply want to be a girl. At the same time though biologically my mind is a male (as far as I know), and I haven't had the same experiences or hormones that girls have in the real world yet.

To try to explain it to people I tell though, I usually tell them to think about me as having a girl mind in a male body.

I also try to distinguish sex and gender though. Everyone biologically is a male or female, but then there are genders boy or girl. I am male, because I haven't had a surgery yet or started hormones, but I am a girl at heart.

Quote from: Molly on July 09, 2012, 12:35:40 AM
Fun fact:  Reading this thread while you're still trying to sort everything out in your head is a terrible idea.  Yay, downward spiral of self-doubt!

Quote from: MadelineB on July 09, 2012, 01:18:25 AM
Queue upward spiral of self-affirmation!

A question for our Aussie friends - Do these downward and upward spirals spin the opposite direction in the southern hemisphere?

See, we're calling on the world to behave a certain way. We ask them to pronoun us as female, treat us and regard us the way any female would expect to be treated and regarded.

I wonder, sometimes, if people's cooperation (such as it is) comes from the "trapped" metaphor. They hear stories of women trapped in men's bodies. The thought of being trapped scares people, so when we describe our dysphoria in that way, they respond by (as they see it) helping us out of our trap.

Would people be just as cooperative if the public metaphor changes? If transgendered stories proliferate of people who don't feel trapped in the wrong body, MtF's who never felt female at all, just an intense sense they would present more naturally in a female body?

Don't know the answer to these questions, but they do make me think.