Susan's Place Transgender Resources

im still very confussed on this point and im sorry if I already asked and a couple of times.

what if a person mtf or ftm, live fulltime as female/male, have got surgery, ffs, top surgery, hysterotomy, name change, gender marked change. homones, and went thought all the typical transition.
but dont feel like having GRS cause of for whatever reason.

dose that make you non-up?

Quote from: Natkat on July 19, 2012, 09:41:27 AM
im still very confussed on this point and im sorry if I already asked and a couple of times.

what if a person mtf or ftm, live fulltime as female/male, have got surgery, ffs, top surgery, hysterotomy, name change, gender marked change. homones, and went thought all the typical transition.
but dont feel like having GRS cause of for whatever reason.

dose that make you non-up?

Your description is a bit haphazard here. GRS (genital reconstruction surgery) and SRS (sex reassignment surgery) are surgeries. For an FTM, they may include top (mastectomy) and/or bottom surgery (hysterectomy, etc); for an MTF, it would be an orchiectomy and/or vaginoplasty.

Absent one of those surgeries, you might consider yourself non-op[eration]. I think non-op is generally applied to a lack of GRS or SRS, but someone having FFS or voice surgery (even without a GRS/SRS) technically has undergone an operation related to transition.

For trans women, the terms exclusively refer to vaginoplasty. Non-op = those who are not planning to ever have it done, pre-op = those who are planning to have it done, post-op = those who have had it done. So, yes, a trans woman who's had an orchie, facial surgery, boob job, hormones, fully transitioned and full time, but does not want vaginoplasty is non-op.

Trans guys don't have the same obnoxious hierarchy related to bottom surgery, so I don't think the terms matter so much for you.

Then of course there is Want-Op but can't for other medical reasons.

Its not always so cut and dried, there are many reasons for having or not having srs/grs/whatever you want to call it.

Quote from: Sarah7 on July 19, 2012, 11:21:26 AM
For trans women, the terms exclusively refer to vaginoplasty. Non-op = those who are not planning to ever have it done, pre-op = those who are planning to have it done, post-op = those who have had it done. So, yes, a trans woman who's had an orchie, facial surgery, boob job, hormones, fully transitioned and full time, but does not want vaginoplasty is non-op.

Trans guys don't have the same obnoxious hierarchy related to bottom surgery, so I don't think the terms matter so much for you.

itsn't it kinda wierd for transwomen to have this word when transguys it dont count.
I know theres more transguys who dont do the bottom surgery but still..

Quote from: Natkat on July 19, 2012, 12:50:28 PM
itsn't it kinda wierd for transwomen to have this word when transguys it dont count.
I know theres more transguys who dont do the bottom surgery but still..

It has a lot to do with our history.

Among many trans women SRS/vaginoplasty is seen as the holy grail - the necessary step to true assimilation, to being cured, to ceasing to be trans, really. There is a huge value attached to the surgery, and an associated value judgement placed on those who opt not to do it. It creates this perceived "great divide" between those who have had it and those who haven't. There have been a number of very heated... discussions on these forums on that particular topic. Some women who desperately wanted/needed the surgery have a hard time seeing no-op women as women at all. And some women who don't want the surgery have a hard time understanding the desperation and intensity of those who do.

Trans guys are not in the same situation because opting not to do bottom surgery doesn't carry that associated value judgement. Bottom surgery is not the expected end point of transition for you. It is an option that some guys opt for. Partly it's because your bottom surgery options are often considered to have less acceptable results, and partly because the surgeries simply have not been around and available for anything like as long. And, of course, they are rather more expensive in any place where they aren't covered by public healthcare.

There is a sense of "congrats, you're done," and sometimes a more problematic "congrats, you're a woman now," that comes with each declaration of "I've had my op!" among trans women. And nobody really needs to ask "what op?" So, ya, we have these words.

Quote from: Sarah7 on July 19, 2012, 01:41:42 PM
It has a lot to do with our history.

Among many trans women SRS/vaginoplasty is seen as the holy grail - the necessary step to true assimilation, to being cured, to ceasing to be trans, really. There is a huge value attached to the surgery, and an associated value judgement placed on those who opt not to do it. It creates this perceived "great divide" between those who have had it and those who haven't. There have been a number of very heated... discussions on these forums on that particular topic. Some women who desperately wanted/needed the surgery have a hard time seeing no-op women as women at all. And some women who don't want the surgery have a hard time understanding the desperation and intensity of those who do.

Trans guys are not in the same situation because opting not to do bottom surgery doesn't carry that associated value judgement. Bottom surgery is not the expected end point of transition for you. It is an option that some guys opt for. Partly it's because your bottom surgery options are often considered to have less acceptable results, and partly because the surgeries simply have not been around and available for anything like as long. And, of course, they are rather more expensive in any place where they aren't covered by public healthcare.

There is a sense of "congrats, you're done," and sometimes a more problematic "congrats, you're a woman now," that comes with each declaration of "I've had my op!" among trans women. And nobody really needs to ask "what op?" So, ya, we have these words.

So to make it short Mtf bottom surgery is kinda in same view as Ftms top surgery..
-
I do wonder if I would be considered op, since I got top surgery?
or if those theams in general just for mtf, But I seen ftm use those..

I used to think of myself as pre-up before I had top surgery, and post op after, but I am not sure anymore..

Quote from: Sarah7 on July 19, 2012, 01:41:42 PM
It has a lot to do with our history.

Among many trans women SRS/vaginoplasty is seen as the holy grail - the necessary step to true assimilation, to being cured, to ceasing to be trans, really. There is a huge value attached to the surgery, and an associated value judgement placed on those who opt not to do it.

There's also the legal aspect; in the state where I live, a letter from a doctor w/ proof of surgery is required to change marker on drivers' license. Grrrr!  >:(

Z

Quote from: Zythyra on October 12, 2012, 06:12:34 PM
There's also the legal aspect; in the state where I live, a letter from a doctor w/ proof of surgery is required to change marker on drivers' license. Grrrr!  >:(

Z

Wonder if a case could be made that this violates the equal protection clause. I mean this really means that MtF's who have 20 grand lying around can get the surgery and the marker changed, whereas this avenue is closed to people of normal means.

Quote from: agfrommd on October 14, 2012, 07:22:02 AM

Wonder if a case could be made that this violates the equal protection clause. I mean this really means that MtF's who have 20 grand lying around can get the surgery and the marker changed, whereas this avenue is closed to people of normal means.

That was basis behind the recent decision from the Ontario Human Rights commison re birth certificates.  Although that wasn't a requirement for DLs in Ontario, nor for passports.  C'mon Quebec, are you gonna let Ontario beat you on this? :P

Quote from: Natkat on July 19, 2012, 09:41:27 AM
im still very confussed on this point and im sorry if I already asked and a couple of times.

what if a person mtf or ftm, live fulltime as female/male, have got surgery, ffs, top surgery, hysterotomy, name change, gender marked change. homones, and went thought all the typical transition.
but dont feel like having GRS cause of for whatever reason.

dose that make you non-up?

my opinion is yes that makes you a non op

@Tessa,

QuoteIm going to Ontario or BC when im done school

Yeah, come to Toronto Tessa!

Jamie