Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I've read a number of threads + posts since I've been here about MTF's who de-transition.

I understand the...well, I don't understand.

Nevermind the different reasons, like "I missed my family", "I wanted to work in my field again", etc....but, it is the process of dealing with permanent changes (laser, electrolysis, orchi, etc...does anyone who's gone thru SRS choose to de-transition?).

Do you go thru the whole process of name change back to male, telling everyone you're now "(male name)" again? What degree of self-consciousness did this make you?

At this point in my life and transition, I simply cannot fathom going back to being a guy...to having high T levels (not that mine was very high anyway...), to correcting everyone, "Oh, I'm not Beth anymore, I'm (male name)."

If you would like to share this or other details, that'd be great.

No bashing, please. Add, share, or read.

:)

Hi Beth,

I know what that's like to some extent at least - I was at the exact stage that you are now when I started facing a crisis ... I had to choose between spending my life with someone I really really really loved and cared about (and still do) and transitioning...

I gave it a go for 1 and half year (and we were friends for a year before that) but it didn't work out...  and it was my first ever relationship so it hurt when we broke up a month and a half ago - I decided we were both better off as friends after what had happened although at times I really miss her as a partner...

And She was really turned off when I behaved in ANY girly manner...

now am back where I started 2 years ago - back to HRT...

the good thing was that at least I got to share an experience with someone wonderful...

I did it about 20 years ago and it was hell.  For 20 years I was suicidal and depressed.


I would do anything in my power to keep someone from detransitioning, but it is their life and their call.

Ending up doing this was one of my greatest fears starting out. I can't imagine what doing that would be like.

Thanks for the replies!  I'm thinking that even if de-transitioning "looks" good in a "the-grass-is-always-greener-on-the-other-side" sort of way, once one actually does de-t, it sucks worse than working to succeed as a trans-person...mainly because one *did* accept themselves as trans, but then actively denying it plays hell on them.

I don't know, I'm just trying to understand. I would think there are some who de-t'd and are happy...but of course they're not likely to be posting here...

*hugs*

I am not sure about detransitioning but you can always go back to sitting on fence.

I've installed a seat on fence so that it is more comfortable.

Maybe some of us are analog and not digital.

Part of the reason psychological counseling is part of the Standards of Care is that, for some people, transitioning is not the right thing to do.

Quote from: Jamie D on August 05, 2012, 09:41:34 PM
Part of the reason psychological counseling is part of the Standards of Care is that, for some people, transitioning is not the right thing to do.

But I'm not talking about them...I'm talking about TS for whom transitioning is the right thing, but for whatever reason (legal, social, family, etc) they stop transitioning after being substantially on that path.

I would expect them to have to change their name back to their original gender (not necessarily their original name, however), not wear the "correct" gendered clothes, and as part of this, they'd have to re-educate their families/coworkers/etc on their choice to not transition to be a woman/man.

Just wondering what sorts of hurdles or problems they would face, if there's problems, etc. (Not looking for myself, I'm just curious about those who've done an "about face" with something so crucial to one's identity.)

Again, the person knows transitioning is the right choice for them, but due to circumstances they must completely or partially de-transition.

Hi,

This is not directed at any one . two points

I know of some who could not hack being in a womans world & looking at some of thier pics they did not look in any way as woman  very manly or masculine.

Now wether they were accepted or not i have no idear as that did not seem to me to be what this was about , it was about i dont fit in i cant fit in because . & this then is my ? were they really who they said they were. or thought they could be women .

So the end result was they back tracked & lived as what they were in the begining just men.  now of cause they are back in the male world,
...........................

My self its of little difference to me because of being intersexed. i dont see being female or male as different because of how im wired. im happy being the way i am so i cant change from one to the other. it has totaly no meaning.

different has its own way of working through things just not as a male or just as a female.

Iv looked at this from different sides so do understand . as iv said before ,

If one finds themselfs in a position of not sure or what ever the reason its not a crime  just a fact of life. for us who are some what different in how others percive or see us.

I move very freely among women im accepted have no issues a few of cause will allways be there to say or voice ....thier.... opinon  well they can & thats all it is till they get to know you as a person. & its not about wether your male or female or like i am intersexed. that does not come in to it its about accepting another person for who they or you are,

It must allways be about acceptance .

...noeleena...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1327554/Charles-Kane-sex-change--hated-Samantha-man-Now-hes-getting-married-So-fiancee-crazy.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1327554/Charles-Kane-sex-change--hated-Samantha-man-Now-hes-getting-married-So-fiancee-crazy.html)

this guy got a lot of media time but never came across as being totally sane and sound.

I think it is one of therapy steps. I'm not quite sure where in the process but I think people, or at least I did, have a doubt. Is this what you really want? You are giving so much away. Yes your a miserable will this realy be what you want?


Then you go to work and present as you and feel the 'what the hell have I done' feeling. Can I go back and hide. Maybe it isn't for me. The whole emotional waterfall.
BTW I think the hormones do have a influence at that point, and the support you receive. I think it can be a breaking point.


I thought about it deeply before I went FT.  I had been PT for so long, leaving that avenue to escape down.


I realised there was no going back. I'm not 100% sure what made that decision for me. To be honest I really have no idea when in the process it was total commitment or hiding behind the mask.


I cannot imagine any way of going back.


I was asked yesterday that if my wife died, how would I go to her  funeral?


I had to think about it.


I would go as Cindy.


That is who I am.

 

Quote from: lilacwoman on August 06, 2012, 02:41:52 AM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1327554/Charles-Kane-sex-change--hated-Samantha-man-Now-hes-getting-married-So-fiancee-crazy.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1327554/Charles-Kane-sex-change--hated-Samantha-man-Now-hes-getting-married-So-fiancee-crazy.html)

this guy got a lot of media time but never came across as being totally sane and sound.

I had the pleasure of befriending them and then finding that out for myself. They seemed quite single minded about how right they thought transition and SRS was for them, which forced me to question my own sanity and take the slow lane to SRS.

Come to think of it there was a friend of a friend that started transition a few years back only to stop as soon as they got approved for hormones. I've never really talked to him/her personally, only said hi at a concert once, so I don't really know what the story is. He/she was even did an interview for a national news paper about transitioning, then full stop. Still don't know the person but as far as I know they are doing fine.


To me it seemed that coming out and telling everyone about my plans and how I had felt on the inside for all these years only to back track and continue on as if nothing happened would be about equivalent to making up a pregnancy for attention. If I had stopped my transition after all the noise and spectacle, how would people view me afterwards? Would I ever have any credibility ever again? Would they think I was nuts to be mistaken about such a thing? Starting my journey down the road of transition I was 100% convinced it was a one way street. Turning around and going back was a totally unacceptable option in my mind and that scared me a great deal the days that the task at hand seemed impossible. Once I had progressed to the point that I knew I would succeed my worries disappeared. I was sort of expecting to have moments of doubt or regret but it just never happened. Not for one second.


The GIC here where I live have this 5 year followup program after officially being done. It involves coming in once a year to talk about how things are going and fill out some questionnaires a research program they are doing. It was completely voluntarily and though I got no tangible benefit from it I did come in all 5 times. I got along great with the person I talked to had very pleasant conversations with her. I believe it was my last visit she asked me if my new life lived up to all my expectations. My answer was no but I went on to explain to her that in all my previous experiences nothing ever is, so if there was one thing I was sure of it was that I had no idea exactly what it would be like. Is my new life perfect? No, it is not, but it is so much better than my old life, and that is all I ever rationally expected to get out of transition. I will never go back and I never worry about it anymore.

Quote from: Cindy James on August 06, 2012, 05:43:58 AM
I think it is one of therapy steps. I'm not quite sure where in the process but I think people, or at least I did, have a doubt. Is this what you really want? You are giving so much away. Yes your a miserable will this realy be what you want?


Then you go to work and present as you and feel the 'what the hell have I done' feeling. Can I go back and hide. Maybe it isn't for me. The whole emotional waterfall.
BTW I think the hormones do have a influence at that point, and the support you receive. I think it can be a breaking point.


I thought about it deeply before I went FT.  I had been PT for so long, leaving that avenue to escape down.

...

Oh yeah, wow. I did all this introspection before going FT...and yes, I saw a lot of support and encouragement (mainly from the lesbians I encountered). Even so, without the encouragement I would have still gone FT, it just would have taken longer to work up the steam to do it.

Without hormones? I probably wouldn't have, because I'd have done myself in. "Going back" is not even conceivable for me. But, for some, it is...and I'm interested in what happened to them (their own acceptance, and their perception of how others accepted it) afterwards.

Quote from: MariaMx on August 06, 2012, 09:06:06 AM
Come to think of it there was a friend of a friend that started transition a few years back only to stop as soon as they got approved for hormones. I've never really talked to him/her personally, only said hi at a concert once, so I don't really know what the story is. He/she was even did an interview for a national news paper about transitioning, then full stop. Still don't know the person but as far as I know they are doing fine.


To me it seemed that coming out and telling everyone about my plans and how I had felt on the inside for all these years only to back track and continue on as if nothing happened would be about equivalent to making up a pregnancy for attention. If I had stopped my transition after all the noise and spectacle, how would people view me afterwards? Would I ever have any credibility ever again? Would they think I was nuts to be mistaken about such a thing? Starting my journey down the road of transition I was 100% convinced it was a one way street. Turning around and going back was a totally unacceptable option in my mind and that scared me a great deal the days that the task at hand seemed impossible. Once I had progressed to the point that I knew I would succeed my worries disappeared. I was sort of expecting to have moments of doubt or regret but it just never happened. Not for one second.


The GIC here where I live have this 5 year followup program after officially being done. It involves coming in once a year to talk about how things are going and fill out some questionnaires a research program they are doing. It was completely voluntarily and though I got no tangible benefit from it I did come in all 5 times. I got along great with the person I talked to had very pleasant conversations with her. I believe it was my last visit she asked me if my new life lived up to all my expectations. My answer was no but I went on to explain to her that in all my previous experiences nothing ever is, so if there was one thing I was sure of it was that I had no idea exactly what it would be like. Is my new life perfect? No, it is not, but it is so much better than my old life, and that is all I ever rationally expected to get out of transition. I will never go back and I never worry about it anymore.

That's what I'm thinking, too. But in the interest of the "scientific method", I'd like to hear what those who have de-t'd might say. (My suspicions are the same as yours--noise and spectacle, credibility issues, insanity, etc).

It's interesting that the "friend of a friend" chose to stop the process before taking hormones...that's really the first, BIG, permanent step on the way to changing the body. Once I was prescribed them, I thought about this...for about 0.0001 seconds.  :)   On the other hand, a year earlier I'd been prescribed testosterone (androderm) for depression, and THAT was my "OMG MUST NOT DO THIS!" moment.

When millionaire property developer Charles Kane steps out with his new fiancée, people tend to either stare or discreetly do a double take.

It may be because Victoria Emms is a striking redhead and, at 28 to Charles's 50, is young enough to be his daughter.

But they both suspect it is because they look - to use their own words - 'eccentric' or 'odd'.

In Victoria's eyes, Charles is 'all man', but ­others may disagree. Born Sam Hashimi, the businessman and divorced father-of-two had a sex-change operation in 1987 to turn him into glamorous interior designer Samantha Kane.  (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.dailymail.co.uk%2Fi%2Fpix%2F2010%2F11%2F08%2Farticle-1327554-0BA8EDC9000005DC-712_468x689.jpg&hash=ef42baf68bbfa3c3b6507f5fd41bd68bbda50e2a) Third time lucky? Charles Kane as he is today with his fiance Victoria Emms He spent £100,000 on cosmetic operations and tooth veneers to create the 'ultimate male ­fantasy' and was so convincing as a woman he had no trouble attracting men, and was briefly engaged to a wealthy landowner.

Then, in 2004, after seven years of living as a woman, he decided he'd made a horrible mistake; the result -he believes now -of a breakdown following the acrimonious end of his 12-year ­marriage and estrangement from his children.

Initially thrilled by his transformation, life as a woman quickly paled despite a jetset lifestyle in Monaco.

He hated the way female hormones made him moody and emotional. Shopping bored him and sex was a disappointment.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1327554/Charles-Kane-sex-change--hated-Samantha-man-Now-hes-getting-married-So-fiancee-crazy.html#ixzz22mFYniqP (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1327554/Charles-Kane-sex-change--hated-Samantha-man-Now-hes-getting-married-So-fiancee-crazy.html#ixzz22mFYniqP)

Quote from: Beth Andrea on August 06, 2012, 09:19:47 AM
It's interesting that the "friend of a friend" chose to stop the process before taking hormones...that's really the first, BIG, permanent step on the way to changing the body. Once I was prescribed them, I thought about this...for about 0.0001 seconds.  :)   On the other hand, a year earlier I'd been prescribed testosterone (androderm) for depression, and THAT was my "OMG MUST NOT DO THIS!" moment.

Having a few friends in common I had a brief exchange on facebook. When we were introduced by our friend at the concert where we met in person they didn't realize who I was at first, but when I explained they sort of got this frightened and uncomfortable look on their face. Our conversation there after lasted for about 20 seconds I think. Not long after this I was told by my friend that the transition was off. The brief explanation I was given was that their gf was pregnant and they wanted to put things on hold for a while and fatherhood a go. After this there's been no talk of it what so ever. Almost as if it never happened. What the future holds, no one knows. Maybe old ghosts will come back to haunt them in a few years or so.




For years there were moments where I considered transitioning but deemed it an impossibility. Had I for some reason or another come out at that time I don't know what would have happened. I guess it's possible I might have done the same. In the end though I was compelled to transition and would go all the way even if it would kill me.

Thank you Lilac for reference.  Charles is Hmm beautiful and look at his nails.

What about the very successful sportswriter Mike Penner/Christine Daniels?

He publicly announced his true gender identity in 2007 at age 50.  He transformed to Christine and changed his byline to Christine Daniels, the about a year later, he changed his byline back to Mike Penner.  A year or so later he was dead of a suicide.  Sorry if the pronouns offend anyone - I tried, but wasn't sure. 

Sad story - I'm not sure why he was unhappy being male or female or if it had anything to do with gender issues, but I am assuming it did.

Know why we can not understand someone else thoughts? 

It is because we can not read minds.

I think I do not have a choice but I do.

Doing nothing is a choice.

Quote from: wendy on August 06, 2012, 10:06:40 AM
I think I do not have a choice but I do.

Doing nothing is a choice.

Though I don't really believe in free will I still get what you are saying, however, some options are sometimes unacceptable and thus not viable as far as  choices go.

Quote from: wendy on August 06, 2012, 10:06:40 AM
Know why we can not understand someone else thoughts? 

It is because we can not read minds.

I think I do not have a choice but I do.

Doing nothing is a choice.

That is very true...however, if the other person is honest with what they share, and we are honest with how we hear it (two very, very big "if's"), perhaps some degree of understanding can happen.

The first step is to reach out and ask...the second step is to be able and willing to answer.

Rush had a song "Freewill" which had the line...

QuoteYou can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that's clear
I will choose freewill

There have been times I've felt "guided by some celestial voice"...and other times it's all me. Sometimes it's a chorus, sometimes it's a cacophony.

Sorry, got distracted there... :)

IDK if this counts but I was part time before going full time (which I'm sure many of us did). I basically was male at work and female everywhere else. That dread of having to go to work and pretend to be a guy was filthy and painful for me. I literally hated my life when it came time to get ready for work.


For me, going back is not an option. It's something I'll probably die before doing again.

Quote from: Jaime R D on August 06, 2012, 10:27:34 AM
I don't personally know anyone who fully detransitioned, but I do know of a few that sort of toned things down enough that they could go either way in their daily lives and sort of forever in between.  Me, I couldn't do it, its got to be all or nothing. 

And I imagine that some who eventually detransition may have gotten caught up in things and experiencing so many new things during the process that they didn't really stop to think about the ultimate end and what all it would entail. Its partly why I'm not a big cheerleader, I think sometimes, there is a bit of pressure that shouldn't be there within our community to go farther than might be appropriate for some people.

Absolutely! The first trans-couple I met were really emphatic on that: Take it slow, one step at a time...go as far as you are comfortable with, but slow slow slow.

Not snail's pace slow, but at a speed where one can understand and affirm that's what they want.

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on August 06, 2012, 10:24:22 AM
IDK if this counts but I was part time before going full time (which I'm sure many of us did). I basically was male at work and female everywhere else. That dread of having to go to work and pretend to be a guy was filthy and painful for me. I literally hated my life when it came time to get ready for work.


For me, going back is not an option. It's something I'll probably die before doing again.

LOL...I was just the opposite...female at work, male everywhere else. But I too went FT because it was too "filthy and painful" for me to pretend to be male anymore.

Quote from: MariaMx on August 06, 2012, 10:12:35 AM
Though I don't really believe in free will I still get what you are saying, however, some options are sometimes unacceptable and thus not viable as far as  choices go.

I believe in free will and I believe some options are not good.

Hormones make me feel better and I will continue taking them.

I feel sad to dress as a male but I can do it.

I also feel I can not integrate as a woman into society.

I have told few neighbors I have gender issues.

That works.  They can understand that and ask no questions.

No one cares about trans but trans people.

Do what you think is correct since happiness is an illusion.

It takes great courage to transition to a woman.

Anyone that understands how it feels in our heads would never make fun of a trans person.

I'm out but back to hiding.  No one cares either way but me and my family.

My autism is not treatable but I can learn how to live with it if I chose.

I would guess Mike Penner/ Christine Daniels became depressed and missed his/her wife.

Quote from: wendy on August 06, 2012, 10:51:14 AM
I believe in free will and I believe some options are not good.

Hormones make me feel better and I will continue taking them.

My view on the matter is that scales don't choose which way to tip and neither do we. We stack up the pros and cons and sway to the option with the most weight. If our choices aren't governed by some underlying principal then they are random. Maybe I'm wrong but I fail to see a third option.

Quote
No one cares about trans but trans people.

Do what you think is correct since happiness is an illusion.

It takes great courage to transition to a woman.

Anyone that understands how it feels in our heads would never make fun of a trans person.

How true that is. Sometimes I wonder what not be trans is like.

Quote from: MariaMx on August 06, 2012, 11:10:41 AM
Sometimes I wonder what not be trans is like.

Too funny!

I always felt we all were girls but some of us got stuck as boys. 

I have a friend who 'tried' to de-transition. It didn't work. she says she can't pass as male, even when she tries. That's on top of all the other problems she ended up with that are unrelated to transition. She was de-transitioning so that she could try and get contact with her children again.

 
Something that has not been mentioned yet - I think - is the normalcy that comes about once you have +/- transitioned.

All of the sudden all this excitement of working out your "final solution" comes to almost... nothing...

In my case it made/makes me wonder --- what on earth was all this GD stuff about?!?

Its after a while as if you lost your compass showing female, female, female... you arrive... and the dang thing is spinning - arriving like some explorer at the magnetic north pole!

NOW WHERE TO GO FROM HERE ???

In some cases folks might just like the momentum and the 'drama' and feel they have to keep moving, and so keep moving away from their original goal/pole?

To be a woman is much the same deal as being a 'male' (well our kind) given a number of different priorities. In any case that is my experience.

I have to remind myself at times of how it was... almost KILLING me! Yet it happens only now, when speaking to others that are still deeply stuck inside their very own "transition drama".

Lastly, there is this question of integrity, it might be a binary thing.

But for me you either did, or you didn't do something.

You can't be 1/2 pregnant, 1/2 steal, 1/2 tell a lie, 1/2 do whatever IN TERMS OF YOUR OWN INTEGRITY... never mind those loopholes in law etc.

I think WE know for ourselves what was, and what is.

So de-transitioning the proper way is trying to undo something WE ACTUALLY cannot.

We just try to undo something not really to be undone. Unless the whole GD driven issue was one big BS trip. Can that be? YES!

Because some folks wind up thinking they are Napoleon, Jesus, Mother Mary, Theresa, the Empress of China, etc. and are completely convinced of that. Delusions EXIST, and it is THAT which a gender therapist has to figure out - and more better will do, before all has gone too far.

Would I personally contemplate de-transitioning? No THANK YOU, not in this life for all I can tell.

It simply FEELS unthinkable to go and backtrack. We walk through hell-fire, and now suggest a turnabout and walk right back through it once again?!

To ME... that is a pretty insane suggestion. But then, that is just my very own notion. It be devastating, killing - and yes as was mentioned it killed some doing just that.

Quite a subject as it turns out,
Axélle

Quote from: Keaira on August 06, 2012, 01:27:29 PM
I have a friend who 'tried' to de-transition. It didn't work. she says she can't pass as male, even when she tries. That's on top of all the other problems she ended up with that are unrelated to transition. She was de-transitioning so that she could try and get contact with her children again.

This is funny in an odd way in that I look better as a woman than a man; however I can not pass as a woman unless I wear a wig and modify my voice.   I guess I pass as a guy if I suppress and somewhat pass as a gal if I try.

Keaira did your friend that tried to de-transition have plethora of mental issues rampant in community?

............................
Axell wrote, "Lastly, there is this question of integrity, it might be a binary thing. But for me you either did, or you didn't do something."

I have no problem with humans being analog.  There are no lines between man and woman.  Overlap makes sense.   I also see no problems in people making one decision over another.  Many put off transitioning for years.

I've watched a TV 'documentary' once about 'christians' 'saving' homeless MTF by first of all converting them to christianity and giving them shelter and then forced them to  revert back to being 'straight' 'men' being forced into marriages with women.


It was heartbreaking to look at, this foul blackmail and besides that: the 'former' MTF's didn't make credible men.


Very strange to look at because of the remnants of their former feminity in their faces and figure.


I personally know one person who went from male to female...and changed zher mind post op.


First zhe had zher breastimplants removed, then zhe went off hormones and started using an 'in between' hormone for a year or so and then started to use testosterone....and grew a goatee.


Zhe doesn't call zherself a man, nor a woman, nor MTF but TG, to avoid 'new' social problems.


And also a very strange one to look at.

  What Dahlia described is 'repairative therapy'.  It has been in use by christian groups and others to 'cure' gays, lesbians, and transsexuals in the past.  There were a lot of attempted suicides, suicides, and remissions to be an effective therapy. 
  Detransitioning is an option here.  But at my age, the available women are not interested in a long-term relationship or those relationships have too many restrictions to them.  This after last summer's awakening inside followed by the anger I felt last fall.  I blossomed in the winter of my generation.  I will have to have a good support base that was better than the paltry one I had as a male before I transitioned.  I was treated more as an 'it' than a proper human being. 
  Joelene

Quote from: Jamie D on August 05, 2012, 09:41:34 PM
Part of the reason psychological counseling is part of the Standards of Care is that, for some people, transitioning is not the right thing to do.

And yet personal freedom and responsibility: we're free to change our minds. No standards of care can completely prevent regret or de-transitoining. I don't even think that the goal should be to minimize it (conceptually, it's not far from tying to make sure it never happens). Hmm...I should write a paper on this.

Quote from: Dahlia on August 06, 2012, 04:42:46 PM
I've watched a TV 'documentary' once about 'christians' 'saving' homeless MTF by first of all converting them to christianity and giving them shelter and then forced them to  revert back to being 'straight' 'men' being forced into marriages with women.


It was heartbreaking to look at, this foul blackmail and besides that: the 'former' MTF's didn't make credible men.


Very strange to look at because of the remnants of their former feminity in their faces and figure.


I personally know one person who went from male to female...and changed zher mind post op.


First zhe had zher breastimplants removed, then zhe went off hormones and started using an 'in between' hormone for a year or so and then started to use testosterone....and grew a goatee.


Zhe doesn't call zherself a man, nor a woman, nor MTF but TG, to avoid 'new' social problems.


And also a very strange one to look at.

Wow.  I do not call myself a man nor woman nor MTF but person with gender issues to outsiders and TG to community.

I have no intention of taking T.  Dual processor 650's hurt and may be removed.

I think I am fluid.  When I am with community I feel fine other than I remain autistic; however when I go home I feel I can live in two genders.  Living in two genders feels like de-transitioning.

We do not have a precise language in which to communicate terms.

 

Quote from: wendy on August 06, 2012, 02:26:20 PM
[clipped]
............................
Axélle wrote, "Lastly, there is this question of integrity, it might be a binary thing. But for me you either did, or you didn't do something."

I have no problem with humans being analogue. There are no lines between man and woman. Overlap makes sense. I also see no problems in people making one decision over another. Many put off transitioning for years.

I don't think it is "putting off transition" it is, let's face it, simply NOT transitioning - but having tried. Fair enough.

Unless sleeping in front of a switched on TV is some sort of  'analogue' watching TV?

It's like being a bit 'analogue' pregnant... or having a bit analogue VJ or penis or whatever... if not being Inter, that is. And then one is also not 'analogue' Inter either - or?

It's the same with a bit 'analogue' de-transition... like it's a bit night... that would be dawn or dusk, yes?

We can of course relativize the heck out of it all and might as well stop to define ANYTHING. Like a car is a bit analogue bicycle, etc. etc.?

Just my non-relativist thought (binary? really?) on the subject.

Or just a what ??? ... Analogue or a binary brain-fart?

Hum,

Axélle

i have read about one person who had full transition srs ect and lived for a while as a woman but found that it wasnt working so went back to a male look. she had only small breasts so her body is still female but on the outside she presents as male. she never wants male genitalia and is happy with still a female body. for some of us maybe this is a happy halfway ground as with like me i have body gender dysphoria but may struggle to present as a convincing woman. at the end of the day its what makes the person feel complete not what others expect us to be like. i think it can go wrong for some women when they try to fit in and force bits of the transition when really its not suitable for them.

Quote from: Axélle on August 06, 2012, 10:38:18 PM
 
I don't think it is "putting off transition" it is, let's face it, simply NOT transitioning - but having tried. Fair enough.

Unless sleeping in front of a switched on TV is some sort of  'analogue' watching TV?

It's like being a bit 'analogue' pregnant... or having a bit analogue VJ or penis or whatever... if not being Inter, that is. And then one is also not 'analogue' Inter either - or?

It's the same with a bit 'analogue' de-transition... like it's a bit night... that would be dawn or dusk, yes?

We can of course relativize the heck out of it all and might as well stop to define ANYTHING. Like a car is a bit analogue bicycle, etc. etc.?

Just my non-relativist thought (binary? really?) on the subject.

Or just a what ??? ... Analogue or a binary brain-fart?

Hum,

Axélle

Axelle fascinating comments.  Last year I sat in a therapy group of about 30 people (mostly TS) and said I was not transitioning.  As usual I was totally serious and as usual entire room broke out laughing.  Moderator said, "Oh I do not agree.  You are just on 10 year plan."

I also said last year to same support group that I an not transgender.  Moderator said, "I am always amazed how people search for people similar to themselves and then ask if they are similar."

O.K. let's go back to digital.  I am a man.  I am not transitioning.  I am not transgender.  I am eunuch by choice.  Prefer female hormones over male hormones.  Want to be pretty not handsome.  Prefer to hold a woman over a man.  Prefer to have breasts.  Dislike facial hair and body hair and prefer smooth skin.

Only trans people can somewhat understand my feelings.

I do not live real time.  I do not consider myself "transitioned" until  SRS.

Chicago did not turn out as I wanted.

Is a eunuch by choice analog?   

Axelle you consider an intersex person can be analog; therefore a brain can be analog.

I know several gender queers but are they digital?

.......................................

Quote from: SUMMERWINE on August 07, 2012, 05:56:49 AM
i have read about one person who had full transition srs ect and lived for a while as a woman but found that it wasnt working so went back to a male look. she had only small breasts so her body is still female but on the outside she presents as male. she never wants male genitalia and is happy with still a female body. for some of us maybe this is a happy halfway ground as with like me i have body gender dysphoria but may struggle to present as a convincing woman. at the end of the day its what makes the person feel complete not what others expect us to be like. i think it can go wrong for some women when they try to fit in and force bits of the transition when really its not suitable for them.

People are people and every combination exists.  I may be analog and could not sense that I arrived until I went past where I should go.  Do not know.

Quote from: wendy on August 07, 2012, 09:16:06 AM
[clipped]

O.K. let's go back to digital.  I am a man.  I am not transitioning.  I am not transgender.  I am eunuch by choice.  Prefer female hormones over male hormones.  Want to be pretty not handsome.  Prefer to hold a woman over a man.  Prefer to have breasts.  Dislike facial hair and body hair and prefer smooth skin.

Now THAT sounds REAL to me... and standing to one's choices - that is not analogue, it clearly is statement of intend. Period.
Like I'm this... and so be it! Very refreshing when comparing it with some wishy-washy stuff... very refreshing! Taking a STAND, and making a choice - that... has integrity.
In my view at any rate.

Quote

Only trans people can somewhat understand my feelings.

THAT --- does not MATTER, and I'm not so sure if they understand, so WHAT?! It is your choice. Period.
When e.g. I decide to learn French there be enough folks that do not even understand that --- and never mind your choices, yes?
BUT... they are your choices and so they show integrity, to say it again. There is POWER in integrity. Absolutely.

Quote

I do not live real time.  I do not consider myself "transitioned" until  SRS.

Another choice, your choice, and who doesn't like it can take a hike. Quite simple. It's your life not the person's life judging you. Never to forget this simple fact.
If they don't dig your choices - fine --- you have to live of course with the consequences. The problem starts when we choose what we need, AND INSIST that others have to go along with it.
Than loosing integrity by trying to dance on a penny, trying to please one's own needs as much as others'.
THAT... is a no-go and it requires integrity, emotional growth, and the ability to LET GO!

Quote

Chicago did not turn out as I wanted.

So? LEARN TO LET GO!

Quote

Is a eunuch by choice analog? 

A eunuch is a eunch. Periode. No analogue TS/TG/T-anything for all I see.
There IS no need to complicate things beyond the necessary AT ALL.

Ockham's razors: "... assumptions introduced to explain a thing must not be multiplied beyond necessity."
i.e. an eunuch is just that - an eunuch. The rest is unprofitabe and unnecessary.
Amen :)

Quote

Axelle you consider an intersex person can be analog; therefore a brain can be analog.

Same here, intersex is just that - intersex, and so the brain will be intersex. Not some of this, some of that and some of the other.
Bird-lovers do not have portions of analogue bird-brains either, or?
No need to go into analogue stuff.
Again... Ockham's razor applies as you asked me.

Quote

I know several gender queers but are they digital?

They as you say are GENDER QUEER, and better (my view) don't go and create a load of confusing, confounding EXTRAS about it all.
Be gender queer and get on with it. Quite simple then, or?

Quote
.......................................
People are people and every combination exists.  I may be analog and could not sense that I arrived until I went past where I should go.  Do not know.

Babe, your are who you are, and who you choose to be. Stick by it and move on, and try real hard learn to LET GO.

There is NO magical mathematical formula out there to satify your present need to make 'sense' of it all.
It just IS - and THAT... will have to suffice, (since you asked me) ::)

Hug,
Axélle

A lot of people de-transition because it's not working, the HRT is not working, the fat distribution is not working, the facial softening is not working, and the breast development is not working. So the transition is not working out! It's a horrible situation to be in and I think there would be far less people who would de-transition if they physically looked like genetic females.


The expectations of transition are higher than the reality and after 14 years of transition I'm fairly depressed by my personal results but I still don't want to de-transition. 

Are we calling de-transition someone will in the one years lived experience phase? My understanding of teh SOC suggest one year - living as the opposite gender, I am also mistakenly (?) under the impression that during that year one can have hormones, because to a large degree, without cross gender hormone, few would pass. That said, the whole point is to see if "the grass is greener" or rather if you are happier and better adjusted as a person of the opposite gender. I could see how people could do a year and feel that it is not for them, for many reasons.

I also don't think SRS surgery needs to the the "end all" for a transition - at least not until they have it perfected.

I'm sorry to hear, naturally blond, that you don't feel you look feminine enough to look like a "real" woman. Have you seen the incredible variety of shapes and sizes of women these days.  It is strange, or rather i'm surprised, i have seen on a number of posts that trans -women are having trouble fitting in with groups of cis women, i.e. they are being excluded. I think that is terrible. one of the things girls usually have going for them is acceptance of others.

QuoteAre we calling de-transition someone will in the one years lived experience phase? My understanding of teh SOC suggest one year - living as the opposite gender, I am also mistakenly (?) under the impression that during that year one can have hormones, because to a large degree, without cross gender hormone, few would pass.

For the purpose of this thread, "transitioning" is any changes or efforts made to change one's gender...from the minimum (say, wearing nail polish or wearing fem earrings) all the way to SRS and/or FFS.

QuoteOriginally posted by Axélle:

Same here, intersex is just that - intersex, and so the brain will be intersex. Not some of this, some of that and some of the other.

I disagree. If I understand this correctly, someone who is physically intersex will also have a mind that is intersex.

This conflicts with the basic premise of transsexuals--that we were born with male bodies, yet have a female mind (and vice-versa for FTM's). I believe that just as one can have a "manly-man" body or a "girlie-man" body, yet the minds within either of those bodies may very well be über-male (popular American slang "über" means "extremely so"), or they may be very fem...but all is not the extremes, most people have some degree of both masculine and feminine traits, both in body and mind.

There is quite a range of possibilities, not only from genetic potentials, but also from social upbringing.

Quote from: Axélle on August 07, 2012, 10:17:31 AM
Now THAT sounds REAL to me... and standing to one's choices - that is not analogue, it clearly is statement of intend. Period.
Like I'm this... and so be it! Very refreshing when comparing it with some wishy-washy stuff... very refreshing! Taking a STAND, and making a choice - that... has integrity.
In my view at any rate.

THAT --- does not MATTER, and I'm not so sure if they understand, so WHAT?! It is your choice. Period.
When e.g. I decide to learn French there be enough folks that do not even understand that --- and never mind your choices, yes?
BUT... they are your choices and so they show integrity, to say it again. There is POWER in integrity. Absolutely.

Another choice, your choice, and who doesn't like it can take a hike. Quite simple. It's your life not the person's life judging you. Never to forget this simple fact.
If they don't dig your choices - fine --- you have to live of course with the consequences. The problem starts when we choose what we need, AND INSIST that others have to go along with it.
Than loosing integrity by trying to dance on a penny, trying to please one's own needs as much as others'.
THAT... is a no-go and it requires integrity, emotional growth, and the ability to LET GO!

So? LEARN TO LET GO!

A eunuch is a eunch. Periode. No analogue TS/TG/T-anything for all I see.
There IS no need to complicate things beyond the necessary AT ALL.

Ockham's razors: "... assumptions introduced to explain a thing must not be multiplied beyond necessity."
i.e. an eunuch is just that - an eunuch. The rest is unprofitabe and unnecessary.
Amen :)

Same here, intersex is just that - intersex, and so the brain will be intersex. Not some of this, some of that and some of the other.
Bird-lovers do not have portions of analogue bird-brains either, or?
No need to go into analogue stuff.
Again... Ockham's razor applies as you asked me.

They as you say are GENDER QUEER, and better (my view) don't go and create a load of confusing, confounding EXTRAS about it all.
Be gender queer and get on with it. Quite simple then, or?

Babe, your are who you are, and who you choose to be. Stick by it and move on, and try real hard learn to LET GO.

There is NO magical mathematical formula out there to satify your present need to make 'sense' of it all.
It just IS - and THAT... will have to suffice, (since you asked me) ::)

Hug,
Axélle

My brain is hurting! Analog? Digital?

I don't know, and evidently no one else here does either.  All this obsession with gender...no one on the planet cares more about gender than we do.  This thread is mostly stories, anecdotes, and posturing.  We all have opinions about why somebody might do this: "Oh they weren't really women, or they can't pass, or they're confused, or they're crazy..."  One person referred to an individual who transitioned as HE.  WTF!  That was a judgement, one that wasn't called out.  These things all sound like judgements from people who should be more tolerant than anybody on the planet regarding gender confusion.  This isn't analog, digital or--in most cases--a choice.  I transitioned 7 years ago and after I did so, I mostly ignored the trans community because I found a lot of the same judgements, biases, and blatant disregard for personal variance that I found in the straight community. 

There is no set TRANS person.  Every situation is unique, every transition different.  Every post that declares "I wouldn't go back!" is a judgement against those who might.  Why the reporter transitioned, de-transitioned, and then committed suicide will NEVER be known.  He/she took it to the grave with them.

I won't de-transition but it's not a badge.  It's just a fact of life.  I couldn't live that way again.  But I've thought about it and it's not because I'm gender-confused, or I can't pass (I had FFS with Z--I'll never pass as male again), or I'm crazy.  I'm successful and have kept most everything in my life that I value.  But I also live a lie everyday to keep everyone about me comfortable.  I have no past before 2004.  My spouse is single on Facebook--I'm her sister.  My kids...I'm their aunt.  My grandkids think I'm their aunt as well.  Yeah, small price to pay but I transitioned to stop living a lie, right?

Just living a different one actually... 

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on August 07, 2012, 10:11:49 PM
My brain is hurting! Analog? Digital?

Brain? Hurting? Definitely analogue!  :D

Axélle
PS: Oh... and now living a different lie? Just another choice - what else ???

An interesting and well know case is that of Charles/Judy/Josef Kirchner.  A.K.A. the Mangina Man

Also Michael Berke  http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-11-25-man-woman_N.htm (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-11-25-man-woman_N.htm)

MSNBC has a show that is available online: Born in the Wrong Body: A change of Heart.

http://transcendgender.com/2008/08/30/msnbcs-born-in-the-wrong-body-a-change-of-heart/ (http://transcendgender.com/2008/08/30/msnbcs-born-in-the-wrong-body-a-change-of-heart/)
http://zagria.blogspot.com/2009/01/josef-kirchner-1964-performer.html (http://zagria.blogspot.com/2009/01/josef-kirchner-1964-performer.html)
http://www.almostmyself.com/Director.html (http://www.almostmyself.com/Director.html)
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?topic=43008.0 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?topic=43008.0)

Quote from: Beth Andrea on August 05, 2012, 02:05:55 PM
I've read a number of threads + posts since I've been here about MTF's who de-transition.

I think if we are honest, even those of us who have "successfully" "transitioned" have to admit we suffer occasional pangs of doubt. I remember my second thought-my first was OH THANK GOD FINALLY!!!--after waking up from SRS was "OMG I made a mistake!" Then I realized it was just a normal thought to have after having done something that is so irreversible.

I like what Dawn said, we are all unique. What pisses me off though is how the media, especially tabloids, like to trumpet these odd cases.

Quote from: Randi on August 09, 2012, 12:58:42 PM
An interesting and well know case is that of Charles/Judy/Josef Kirchner.  A.K.A. the Mangina Man

MSNBC has a show that is available online: Born in the Wrong Body: A change of Heart.

http://transcendgender.com/2008/08/30/msnbcs-born-in-the-wrong-body-a-change-of-heart/ (http://transcendgender.com/2008/08/30/msnbcs-born-in-the-wrong-body-a-change-of-heart/)
http://zagria.blogspot.com/2009/01/josef-kirchner-1964-performer.html (http://zagria.blogspot.com/2009/01/josef-kirchner-1964-performer.html)
http://www.almostmyself.com/Director.html (http://www.almostmyself.com/Director.html)
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?topic=43008.0 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?topic=43008.0)

Thank you!

Wow, that is certainly an interesting read. I noticed that s/he was born intersexed, so (to me) it's understandable that s/he might want (or need) to be male for a period of time, then female for a period of time, then male again...etc. One's mind is a very dynamic environment, and changes much faster (and with relatively few repercussions) than the "outside" world.

Best wishes to Josef et al.

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on August 09, 2012, 01:26:09 PM
I think if we are honest, even those of us who have "successfully" "transitioned" have to admit we suffer occasional pangs of doubt. I remember my second thought-my first was OH THANK GOD FINALLY!!!--after waking up from SRS was "OMG I made a mistake!" Then I realized it was just a normal thought to have after having done something that is so irreversible.

I like what Dawn said, we are all unique. What pisses me off though is how the media, especially tabloids, like to trumpet these odd cases.

Odd cases sell papers...or something like that.  ;) One just has to be careful to not "paint with a broad brush" in spite of articles that suggest doing just that.

I cant imagine... I struggle hard enough with whether to start transition, I cant imagine the heartache of going back once I had. Although as stated earlier, we are not them nor are we in their minds so we dont know what they are going through. 

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on August 09, 2012, 01:26:09 PM
I think if we are honest, even those of us who have "successfully" "transitioned" have to admit we suffer occasional pangs of doubt. I remember my second thought-my first was OH THANK GOD FINALLY!!!--after waking up from SRS was "OMG I made a mistake!" Then I realized it was just a normal thought to have after having done something that is so irreversible.

For the longest time I fully expected this to happen but so far it hasn't. Now I'm starting to thinking it never will.

However, the last month or so before srs I would wake up in the middle of the night thinking "OMG! Am I really doing this? Is this for real?". There was no doubt though, just a sense of the gravity of what I was doing. All my life transition, hrt and srs sort of had this shroud myth and mystery around, and then doing it myself I would have these moments of realizing it was now real and I was in the midst of actually doing it, for real!!! On the day of srs I didn't think so much about it. I got on the gurney and enjoyed the adrenalin rush as I soaked it all in.

To be honest I actually like these moments of clarity and realization. It all seems so normal now I have to really think hard about it to remember that life wasn't always like this, but every so often I will wake up at night and half asleep I feel between my legs and think "Yes! This is my life now and this is how it is supposed to be"  :)

Quote from: DawnL on August 08, 2012, 11:39:17 PM


There is no set TRANS person.  Every situation is unique,

I'm under the strong impression there IS a set trans person and their situations are not unique at all.

85% of the MTF community is (very) masculine, into women (only) very often a biological father of several children, masculine interests, masculine profession etc.

By comparison:  only 3% of the biological women's population is lesbian...

Quote from: Dahlia on August 09, 2012, 03:05:36 PM
I'm under the strong impression there IS a set trans person and their situations are not unique at all.

85% of the MTF community is (very) masculine, into women (only) very often a biological father of several children, masculine interests, masculine profession etc.

To compare:  only 3% of the biological women's population is lesbian...

It may seem that way because the active members on this board often fit this profile, but about a year ago that wasn't the case. There were many more straight women that seemed pretty feminine to me. I think it's possible that if you're seeing this "statistic" based on what you see on this board, you are only seeing those in the community that come to the board for support because they feel the world is not comfortable with the masculine characteristics they are presenting.

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on August 09, 2012, 03:20:17 PM
It may seem that way because the active members on this board often fit this profile, but about a year ago that wasn't the case. There were many more straight women that seemed pretty feminine to me. I think it's possible that if you're seeing this "statistic" based on what you see on this board, you are only seeing those in the community that come to the board for support because they feel the world is not comfortable with the masculine characteristics they are presenting.

No, it's not (only) based on what I read and see on this board....almost every MTF I ran into in real life is masculine/lesbian.

The Dutch MTF community consists mainly of masculine/lesbian MTF's.

Feminine, straight MTF are quite rare in fact.

Quote from: Dahlia on August 09, 2012, 03:05:36 PM
I'm under the strong impression there IS a set trans person and their situations are not unique at all.

85% of the MTF community is (very) masculine, into women (only) very often a biological father of several children, masculine interests, masculine profession etc.

By comparison:  only 3% of the biological women's population is lesbian...

Really? If you are going to quote statistics in such a presumptuous manner, it behooves you to supply a citation. I would agree that many MTFs who grew up in earlier eras did seek out to OVERCOMPENSATE and become hyper-masculine but 85%??? That is sheer nonsense. Furthermore, to gather ACCURATE statistics on MtFs is difficult at best and, perhaps, nearly impossible.

Quote from: Dahlia on August 09, 2012, 03:39:50 PM
No, it's not (only) based on what I read and see on this board....almost every MTF I ran into in real life is masculine/lesbian.

The Dutch MTF community consists mainly of masculine/lesbian MTF's.

Feminine, straight MTF are quite rare in fact.

Dahlia, you cannot extrapolate your observations into empirical data. Your observations are pretty much irrelevant except for forming your own personal gestalts which you are quite welcome to do.

I did find one study on Dutch transsexuals.

http://igitur-archive.library.uu.nl/dissertations/2002-0808-103443/c5.pdf (http://igitur-archive.library.uu.nl/dissertations/2002-0808-103443/c5.pdf)

Interesting, the study wanted to look at post-SRS regret and found that non-homosexual MtFs seemed to have LOWER rates of being happy with their decision.

"Finally, applicants with a nonhomosexual orientation, combined with the presence of psychopathology and dissatisfaction with secondary sex characteristics at assessment, were more likely to function poorer postoperatively, andexpress more dissatisfaction about the results or consequences of sex reassignment in
their lives. Conclusions: Some of the potential risk factors for poor outcomes of sex
reassignment from the literature or from retrospective studies indeed appeared to be
important for predicting the course and outcomes of treatment. Psychological functioning,
inconsistencies in reported gender dysphoria, physical appearance, and a nonhomosexual
preference deserve particular attention when eligibility for treatment is assessed.
However, the data, though unprecedented and valuable because of their prospective
nature, do not allow us to draw conclusions about absolute contraindications."

Like I said, most studies are inconclusive much less personal observations.

Quote from: Dahlia on August 09, 2012, 03:39:50 PM
No, it's not (only) based on what I read and see on this board....almost every MTF I ran into in real life is masculine/lesbian.
The Dutch MTF community consists mainly of masculine/lesbian MTF's.
Feminine, straight MTF are quite rare in fact.

Sorry, but your anecdotal observations won't stand up to even the slightest scientific scrutiny.  None of these cohorts necessarily represents an accurate cross-section of the majority MTF transsexuals.  The majority of MTFs I meet are feminine/lesbian.  That doesn't represent any meaningful statistic either.  I am feminine/straight and have dated men exclusively post-op.  I know a fair number of post-ops who are similar.  Is it possible that there is a trans sexual-orientation spectrum that has yet to be fleshed out?  I think so.

I live in an area that is known to some as a transsexual mecca,  (San Francisco Bay Area and for a time the TL) yet I know very few MtFs...I probably have met more FtMs actually but of the few I do know, I do not have any idea what there sexual orientation is. What am I missing out on?

Quote from: henrytwob on August 07, 2012, 07:27:01 PM

I'm sorry to hear, naturally blond, that you don't feel you look feminine enough to look like a "real" woman. Have you seen the incredible variety of shapes and sizes of women these days.  It is strange, or rather i'm surprised, i have seen on a number of posts that trans -women are having trouble fitting in with groups of cis women, i.e. they are being excluded. I think that is terrible. one of the things girls usually have going for them is acceptance of others.

I think you've just debunked your own arguement by saying trans women are having trouble fitting in with groups of cis women, i.e. they are being excluded. I would think they are excluded because they are not perceived as female physically? this could push some to de- transition if it's not working.

Ok. I no longer have the book, but in the book, "she's not there" the statistic she gives for sexual orientation after SRS is 30% remain attracted to the gander they were attracted to pre-op, 30% change preferences and about 30% are generally 'asexual'  or "not classifiable". The book is an autobiography however, it was heavy with citations and believe that the above number come from an actual study.

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on August 09, 2012, 03:20:17 PM
It may seem that way because the active members on this board often fit this profile, but about a year ago that wasn't the case. There were many more straight women that seemed pretty feminine to me. I think it's possible that if you're seeing this "statistic" based on what you see on this board, you are only seeing those in the community that come to the board for support because they feel the world is not comfortable with the masculine characteristics they are presenting.

I was very naive when I started my transition; I honestly thought MTF's were feminine, like I was/am.

Well, I was sooooooooooooooo wrong!
Within half a year  while visiting MTF (real life) groups on a regular basis.... I realised most MTF are (very) masculine and that I, being feminine by nature, belong to a minority within a minority.

Sure, there are some (very)(masculine) lesbian ciswomen, but sooooooooooo many in the MTF community?

And no, they don't care if the world is uncomfortable with the masculine characsterics they present...not at all.
They consider themselves women and the world has to too, no matter what.

What struck me more as strange is that most of those very masculine MTF's are white (and rather homophobic(!!)

Asian, Latina, coloured MTF are almost always into men (only) and  feminine  (by nature)

FIY: I'm of mixed heritage.

Quote from: Dahlia on August 10, 2012, 07:03:44 AM
I was very naive when I started my transition; I honestly thought MTF's were feminine, like I was/am.

Well, I was sooooooooooooooo wrong!
Within half a year visiting MTF (real life) groups on a regular basis.... I realised most MTF are (very) masculine and that I, being feminine by nature, belonged to a minority within a minority.

Sure, there are some (very)(masculine) lesbian ciswomen, but sooooooooooo many in the MTF community?

And no, they don't care if the world is uncomfortable with the masculine characsterics they present...not at all.
They consider themselves women and the world has to too, no matter what.

What struck me more as strange is that most of those very masculine MTF's are white (and rather homophobic(!!)

Asian, Latina, coloured MTF are almost always into men (only) and  feminine  (by nature)

FIY: I'm of mixed heritage.

Are you sure you're not seeing the effects of nurture and conformism? I'm guessing that these M2Fs, those you call masculine (butch?), have had many years of social conditioning biased towards their birth sex. I'm presuming too that the social conditioning is also culturally biased. Yes, "the world is uncomfortable" with anyone that strays out of the status quo, hence the masculine social conditioning you see in many M2Fs.

Quote from: Dahlia on August 10, 2012, 07:03:44 AM
I was very naive when I started my transition; I honestly thought MTF's were feminine, like I was/am.

Well, I was sooooooooooooooo wrong!
Within half a year visiting MTF (real life) groups on a regular basis.... I realised most MTF are (very) masculine and that I, being feminine by nature, belonged to a minority within a minority.

Sure, there are some (very)(masculine) lesbian ciswomen, but sooooooooooo many in the MTF community?

And no, they don't care if the world is uncomfortable with the masculine characsterics they present...not at all.
They consider themselves women and the world has to too, no matter what.

What struck me more as strange is that most of those very masculine MTF's are white (and rather homophobic(!!)

Asian, Latina, coloured MTF are almost always into men (only) and  feminine  (by nature)

FIY: I'm of mixed heritage.

I would tend to agree with you Dahlia as I've sometimes received a certain amount of aggression and abuse in this forum and in T forums in general over the years because I don't fit in to the same criteria.

But I'm not sure that you can categorize those who are into men by their ethnic origins as I know one or two gorgeous white MTF's who are very much into men only in a big way but the majority of MTF's are usually previously married or still married to women. There's nothing wrong with that at all but I have sometimes felt alienated on this forum as my experiences of growing up are very different and I didn't want to marry a woman or live as a man.  The thought of wearing a man's morning suit and walking down the isle with a girl wasn't something I ever wanted to do.

Also Felicitá, I did rebel against any forced male conditioning which I knew wasn't right for me.

Quote from: Felicitá on August 10, 2012, 07:40:27 AM
Are you sure you're not seeing the effects of nurture and conformism? I'm guessing that these M2Fs, those you call masculine (butch?), have had many years of social conditioning biased towards their birth sex. I'm presuming too that the social conditioning is also culturally biased. Yes, "the world is uncomfortable" with anyone that strays out of the status quo, hence the masculine social conditioning you see in many M2Fs.

Yes, I'm sure about that. Have you ever heard of feminism, women's lib, women's and gay emancipation?

These all have (had) their effect on (straight) men too for the past 45 years in term of social conditioning

There's no reason for western men/pre MTF anymore to behave (that) (hyper)masculine. No one forces them to.

I'm convinced they're (hyper)masculine by nature and not by social conditioning.

They are radiating masculinity from the inside out.

Oh, btw: are you familiar with the John/Joan-Bruce/Brenda case?
The babyboy who lost his penis due to a botched circumcision and was raised and 'nurtured' to be a girl?

He rejected all girl stuff from very early on without knowing he was born a boy.

All the nurturing and 'conformism' couldn't turn him into a girl.

At 14 he found out the truth and immediately started living as a boy.

So this doesn't stand anymore: <<Are you sure you're not seeing the effects of nurture and conformism? I'm guessing that these M2Fs, those you call masculine (butch?), have had many years of social conditioning biased towards their birth sex>>

Quote from: DawnL on August 08, 2012, 11:39:17 PM
  My spouse is single on Facebook--I'm her sister.  My kids...I'm their aunt.  My grandkids think I'm their aunt as well.  Yeah, small price to pay but I transitioned to stop living a lie, right?

Just living a different one actually...

This is something so terrible...for your spouse and for your children.

Quote from: Dahlia on August 10, 2012, 08:20:47 AM
Yes, I'm sure about that. Have you ever heard of feminism, women's lib, women's and gay emancipation?

These all have (had) their effect on (straight) men too for the past 45 years in term of social conditioning

There's no reason for western men/pre MTF anymore to behave (that) (hyper)masculine. No one forces them to.

I'm convinced they're (hyper)masculine by nature and not by social conditioning.

They are radiating masculinity from the inside out.

That certainly redefines the meaning of "You're positively radiating!" I don't personally know any transgender folk now, but I used to. The older M2F I knew were more masculine in their ways.

Social conditioning is still alive and kicking. Awareness of feminism, women's lib etc. doesn't create neutral conditioning and equality overnight. I think we have many years to go before we see that. Many areas and cultures on this planet will never see it unless there's a radical change, reform and "enlightenment".

You're implying there's a genetic connection between hyper-masculine M2Fs and the melanin content of the epidermis?

Quote from: Felicitá on August 10, 2012, 09:16:01 AM


You're implying there's a genetic connection between hyper-masculine M2Fs and the melanin content of the epidermis?

Well, sometimes I thought to myself....'transsexuality is a privileged straight white man's thing'. It's almost a western cultural thing.

In Asia and South America it's exactly the opposite: almost all MTF there are into men only (and feminine).

How come?

And yes: I've traveled extensively through Asia and South America and meeting and talking to a lot of MTF there.

Quote from: Dahlia on August 10, 2012, 09:26:01 AM
Well, sometimes I thought to myself....'transsexuality is a privileged straight white man's thing'. It's almost a western cultural thing.

In Asia and South America it's exactly the opposite: almost all MTF there are into men only (and feminine).

How come?

I hear that in Iran many gay men turn to SRS to avoid the death sentence. In this context we have an extreme social pressure to conform to cultural ideals. Is there a possibility that in some cultures we have a similar effect going on although very watered down? Within Asia and South America are we not looking at very macho cultures? This may create a bias for gay men to lean towards transsexuality to escape homosexual oppression. The same cultural pressures may keep tentative M2Fs permanently in the closet, whereas in the West there is more freedom to explore one's identity.

Quote from: Dahlia on August 10, 2012, 09:26:01 AM
Well, sometimes I thought to myself....'transsexuality is a privileged straight white man's thing'. It's almost a western cultural thing.

In Asia and South America it's exactly the opposite: almost all MTF there are into men only (and feminine).



And yes: I've traveled extensively through Asia and South America and meeting and talking to a lot of MTF there.

Where is your study published?

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on August 10, 2012, 09:52:39 AM
Where is your study published?

I would say: go see for yourself. Go to real life MTF groups and meetings.
Not only in San Francisco but all over Asia and South America and all over Europe too.
Go talk to MTF there and you'll see what I exactly mean.

I am wondering, is transsexualism more or less accepted in Asia and South America than western society? What are conditions like in these countries for those that are not feminine? If there are less of the masculine type in one society, it might not be reasonable to automatically assume it is because of genetics. If the more masculine happen to be less accepted in these countries that might explain why there are less of them.

Quote from: MariaMx on August 10, 2012, 10:07:10 AM
....... If the more masculine happen to be less accepted in these countries that might explain why there are less of them.

It's where I'd personally start my investigations and research. Blaming genetics is a conclusion that is all too easy. Besides, "male white privilege" is determined by culture and not by DNA.

Quote from: Felicitá on August 10, 2012, 10:19:29 AM
It's where I'd personally start my investigations and research. Blaming genetics is a conclusion that is all too easy. Besides, "male white privilege" is determined by culture and not by DNA.

Judith Lorber in The Social Construction of Gender proposes that not only gender but even sex is socially constructed.

http://www.writingclassroom.com/socialconstructionofgender.pdf (http://www.writingclassroom.com/socialconstructionofgender.pdf)

Quote from: Dahlia on August 10, 2012, 09:59:53 AM
I would say: go see for yourself. Go to real life MTF groups and meetings.
Not only in San Francisco but all over Asia and South America and all over Europe too.
Go talk to MTF there and you'll see what I exactly mean.

Well, you have already done it. And you are quite the scholar being (presumably) fluent in Spanish, Chinese (Cantonese and Mandarin) Korean, Japanese, Tagalog, Thai, German, Italian just to start. Although I am primarily a historian and not a social scientist, I would be interested in reading your peer-reveiwed study.

Quote from: MariaMx on August 10, 2012, 10:07:10 AM
I am wondering, is transsexualism more or less accepted in Asia and South America than western society? What are conditions like in these countries for those that are not feminine? If there are less of the masculine type in one society, it might not be reasonable to automatically assume it is because of genetics. If the more masculine happen to be less accepted in these countries that might explain why there are less of them.

As if these continents share a common culture? That conditions in San Paolo are similar to those in Beijing? Or Bangkok? Or Katmandu? Or Bogota?  Or Jakarta?


It seems to me that the ONLY thing these places have in common are that they are not Europe and not North America.

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on August 10, 2012, 10:51:35 AM
As if these continents share a common culture? That conditions in San Paolo are similar to those in Beijing? Or Bangkok? Or Katmandu? Or Bogota?  Or Jakarta?


It seems to me that the ONLY thing these places have in common are that they are not Europe and not North America.

I wasn't suggesting conditions are the same in these places or that they necessarily have a common denominator accounting for Dahlia's subjective observation. I was merely to point out that there probably is a much better explanation than western transsexuals being inherently different. If the situation is in fact as Dahlia describes it, it does not necessarily follow that the explanation for what is observed is the same for these places.

As a possible explanation I suggested conditions in a given place might be such that as specific sub-group of trans people might be more reluctant to come out and therefore appear to not to exist. Whether this is true or not for any or all of these place I can't say. It was just a thought off the top of my head.

woahhh... I wonder where/if we are/have gone waaaaaaaaay off topic ladies...

yup ... transsexualism is different from country to country and sometimes even state to state... and city to city... so there is no point comparing it unless you are planning on living in that country.

As for whether there are masculine/feminine MTFs - to each her own.

The usual reasons are:
Family/Friends/kids/loneliness - sometimes giving up people you love can be just too painfull for some and sometimes people decide that they would rather not transition and/or de-transition.
Finance/Money - lets face it - this a BIG factor - not many of us have the funds to go all the way but sometimes the ones that do find they can no longer sustain themselves in their new gender and prefer to revert back - just to be able to stay alive.
Lack of acceptance in their new gender.

But sometimes they just feel that its not the right thing for them...

I stopped myself from transitioning for a year and half/two so I guess I can sorta understand people going through this... But I can also understand not being able to forgive myself for making the same mistake twice.

Transitioning is tough no matter who or where you are or what your financial situation is...

Quote from: Felicitá on August 10, 2012, 09:47:02 AM
I hear that in Iran many gay men turn to SRS to avoid the death sentence.

*Sigh*....Iran is something completely different from the free western world, isn't it?

Some Iranian gays turn to a transition and SRS  in hopes for  a 'better life' and most Iranian gays remain living as men and closeted for the rest of their life.

I find it quite offensive to compare terribly oppressed gay/mtf/lesbian Irians to people living in the free western world, free to make their choices and to choose how to live as they want to.

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on August 10, 2012, 10:51:35 AM

Judith Lorber in The Social Construction of Gender proposes that not only gender but even sex is socially constructed.

http://www.writingclassroom.com/socialconstructionofgender.pdf (http://www.writingclassroom.com/socialconstructionofgender.pdf)




Well, you have already done it. And you are quite the scholar being (presumably) fluent in Spanish, Chinese (Cantonese and Mandarin) Korean, Japanese, Tagalog, Thai, German, Italian just to start. Although I am primarily a historian and not a social scientist, I would be interested in reading your peer-reveiwed study.


As if these continents share a common culture? That conditions in San Paolo are similar to those in Beijing? Or Bangkok? Or Katmandu? Or Bogota?  Or Jakarta?


It seems to me that the ONLY thing these places have in common are that they are not Europe and not North America.

Have you ever travelled outside the USA? To other continents?

Yes, I speak English, German and Spanish. Most Western Europeans speak one or two other languages besides their mother tongue.

Travel through Asia and you will find out a lot of Asians speak English to some extent btw.

Quote from: Dahlia on August 10, 2012, 04:53:18 PM
Have you ever travelled outside the USA? To other continents?

Yes, throughout North and South America, the Caribbean and Asia but it is irrelevant to the discussion because I don't claim to be the transsexual equivalent of Mary Leakey observing trans folks like she studies chimps

QuoteYes, I speak English, German and Spanish. Most Western Europeans speak one or two other languages besides their mother tongue.

So that means you can't communicate with about 3 billion of the people in your "study area" and most Asians can't speak English very well even the ones who live in the US. I know because I tutor Asian students. But again, besides these sweeping generalizations, you must have some data to back up these assertions--assertions are claims without evidence--or do you?

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on August 10, 2012, 07:36:46 PM


Yes, throughout North and South America, the Caribbean and Asia but it is irrelevant to the discussion because I don't claim to be the transsexual equivalent of Mary Leakey observing trans folks like she studies chimps


So that means you can't communicate with about 3 billion of the people in your "study area" and most Asians can't speak English very well even the ones who live in the US. I know because I tutor Asian students. But again, besides these sweeping generalizations, you must have some data to back up these assertions--assertions are claims without evidence--or do you?

I agree with you Cal. People here are confusing "gender roles" which are "social constructs" with 'gender identity."

A flaming effeminate gay man is not a female, no matter how feminine he is. Like JamieD said before, that is why we have psychiatric evaluations as requirements for transition, so that people who confuse "gender roles" with a"gender identity" are screened out.

The claim that some TG/TS are not "really" females because their "masculine" is prosperous.Look at this link:
http://nostalgiadr.wordpress.com/2011/01/26/top-5-female-drag-racers/ (http://nostalgiadr.wordpress.com/2011/01/26/top-5-female-drag-racers/)

and tell me that these ladies are less than femininity because of their chosen "masculine" profession!!

Quote from: Dahlia on August 10, 2012, 07:03:44 AM
I was very naive when I started my transition; I honestly thought MTF's were feminine, like I was/am.

Well, I was sooooooooooooooo wrong!
Within half a year  while visiting MTF (real life) groups on a regular basis.... I realised most MTF are (very) masculine and that I, being feminine by nature, belong to a minority within a minority.

Sure, there are some (very)(masculine) lesbian ciswomen, but sooooooooooo many in the MTF community?

And no, they don't care if the world is uncomfortable with the masculine characsterics they present...not at all.
They consider themselves women and the world has to too, no matter what.

What struck me more as strange is that most of those very masculine MTF's are white (and rather homophobic(!!)

Asian, Latina, coloured MTF are almost always into men (only) and  feminine  (by nature)

FIY: I'm of mixed heritage.

Wow! There's a sweeping generalisation.. Of the MtF's I know IRL, some are lesbian, some are straight.. Some are a little masculine, but most of them are feminine. Myself personally? I'm far from being a girly girl, but I'm not masculine and I never was.

Quote from: Dahlia on August 10, 2012, 08:20:47 AM
Yes, I'm sure about that. Have you ever heard of feminism, women's lib, women's and gay emancipation?

These all have (had) their effect on (straight) men too for the past 45 years in term of social conditioning

There's no reason for western men/pre MTF anymore to behave (that) (hyper)masculine. No one forces them to.

I'm convinced they're (hyper)masculine by nature and not by social conditioning.

They are radiating masculinity from the inside out.

Oh, btw: are you familiar with the John/Joan-Bruce/Brenda case?
The babyboy who lost his penis due to a botched circumcision and was raised and 'nurtured' to be a girl?

He rejected all girl stuff from very early on without knowing he was born a boy.

All the nurturing and 'conformism' couldn't turn him into a girl.

At 14 he found out the truth and immediately started living as a boy.

So this doesn't stand anymore: <<Are you sure you're not seeing the effects of nurture and conformism? I'm guessing that these M2Fs, those you call masculine (butch?), have had many years of social conditioning biased towards their birth sex>>

In my experience most MTFs (of all ethnicities and backgrounds) are feminine, but a few are masculine by nature it seems. I am not going to speculate as to why they transition, however the standard narrative of 'social conditioning' is one I do not believe.

I guess people tend to segregate themselves based on common traits. Therefore, you tend to see the feminine MTFs coming together and the masculine MTFs forming their own separate groups etc. That's hardly surprising.

Back to the original topic:

Quote from: Vibes6 on August 10, 2012, 02:25:08 PM
The usual reasons are:
Family/Friends/kids/loneliness - sometimes giving up people you love can be just too painfull for some and sometimes people decide that they would rather not transition and/or de-transition.
Finance/Money - lets face it - this a BIG factor - not many of us have the funds to go all the way but sometimes the ones that do find they can no longer sustain themselves in their new gender and prefer to revert back - just to be able to stay alive.
Lack of acceptance in their new gender.
Transitioning is tough no matter who or where you are or what your financial situation is...

I have actually never heard of people detransition actively and permanently due to financial concern. The only cases I have heard are of temporary setting aside of transition because they cannot afford procedures to make them pass and therefore go full time in the short term. I myself would rather starve and die than detransition, and I believe many other MTFs are the same.

Quote from: Carrie on August 10, 2012, 11:50:07 PM
Back to the original topic:

I have actually never heard of people detransition actively and permanently due to financial concern. The only cases I have heard are of temporary setting aside of transition because they cannot afford procedures to make them pass and therefore go full time in the short term. I myself would rather starve and die than detransition, and I believe many other MTFs are the same.

I will never go back. Not while I'm breathing.

I could never go back. To do so would be a form of death.

 Sometimes, I think about temporarily de-transitioning to make life easier. Usually because I feel like I look ugly that day, or whatever. Sometimes, I think about de-transitioning to make life cheaper - transition is expensive, after all, and I would certainly be more successful if I didn't do it. Sometimes I think about de-transitioning to appease people, because I am an abomination to some eyes. Sometimes I think about de-transitioning to reproduce, and live a normal, if illusionary, life.

But... I cannot follow through. Like it or not, the idea of my being male is a farce - I don't act it, or sound it. There is no way I could ever be male, and enjoy it, except by enjoying how ridiculous it is that people actually see me as such. I couldn't be anything but a woman doing something to make her life easier... at the cost of my happiness. And that is unacceptable to me.   

Quote from: Felicitá on August 11, 2012, 04:48:47 AM
I never had anything in common with transgender folk back in the 90s when I was transitioning, except for the obvious. They all seemed a bit weird and quirky to me.

Wellwellwell, but ofcourse very strong opiniated on the internet.....

Quote from: Dahlia on August 11, 2012, 08:42:41 AM
Wellwellwell, but ofcourse very strong opiniated on the internet.....

:laugh: With hindsight, I was probably the weird and quirky one.

Quote from: Dahlia on August 09, 2012, 03:05:36 PM
I'm under the strong impression there IS a set trans person

the set transperson appears older/white/father is because that group never had the opportunity of learning about transitioning - this especially applies in countries with anational health service.

By comparison:  only 3% of the biological women's population is lesbian...

alter the 3% to a minimum of 10% and add another 10% for the bisexual ie lesbians and you'd be close to the real total.

Quotethe set transperson appears older/white/father is because that group never had the opportunity of learning about transitioning - this especially applies in countries with anational health service.

Sounds like 'that group' is living in the 1950's...but don't we all live in 2012 heh? lol!

Welcome to the age of the internet!

well I know for a fact that until the late 70s the standard treatmnet for anyone claiming to be transsexual was electroshock treatment and testo shots to make em stand up like a man though they no doubt kept on sitting to pee.

I also know very fem intersexes who were shipped off to boys schools to make them act like men.

it would be interesting and enlightening to have a tally of the number of TS who have been killed by transphobes in the various countries over the last 50 years.

Quote from: lilacwoman on August 11, 2012, 02:52:04 PM
well I know for a fact that until the late 70s the standard treatmnet for anyone claiming to be transsexual was electroshock treatment and testo shots to make em stand up like a man though they no doubt kept on sitting to pee.

I also know very fem intersexes who were shipped off to boys schools to make them act like men.

it would be interesting and enlightening to have a tally of the number of TS who have been killed by transphobes in the various countries over the last 50 years.

The late 1970's is 33+ years ago. We live in 2012 nowadays.

MTF killings are of the last +/- 10 years. Fifty years ago almost no one knew what a MTF was, including most MTF's themselves.

precisely...now you are tripping yourself up over your superfemininity.

from what I hear about fifty years ago anyone who could read the Sunday newspapers was well aware of what a MtF was as April Ashley had been plastered all over them.

Quote from: lilacwoman on August 11, 2012, 03:20:26 PM
precisely...now you are tripping yourself up over your superfemininity.

from what I hear about fifty years ago anyone who could read the Sunday newspapers was well aware of what a MtF was as April Ashley had been plastered all over them.

I'm natural feminine and always was, from day 1 on. No way of either denying nor hiding it.

And 'the April Ashley case' was years after Christine Jorgensen's case...

What are you trying to prove?

STOP

Quote from: lilacwoman on August 11, 2012, 02:52:04 PM
well I know for a fact that until the late 70s the standard treatment for anyone claiming to be transsexual was electroshock treatment and testo shots to make em stand up like a man though they no doubt kept on sitting to pee.

I first knew about three male to female transsexuals in a documentary I saw from 1973 and they certainly didn't receive electric shock treatment and their treatment was pretty much the same as it now.  As a young kid in 1973 I was sent to bed but sneaked downstairs to watch it.

Also Caroline 'Tula' Cossey's was receiving hormone therapy back in 1975. So I'm not sure where you got your incorrect information from?

Quote from: Jamie D on August 11, 2012, 03:50:15 PM
STOP

yes, I decided to opt out of this "discussion" maybe we all just have to agree to disagree. 

Quote from: MadHatter on August 11, 2012, 04:48:42 PM
Stop what?

Maybe, if we kept the generalizations to a minimum, we might actually hear from someone who detransitioned?

That topic died pages ago.  BTW there is nothing wrong with a little healthy debate IMO but at some point it just becomes like a cat chasing her tail.

Quote from: MadHatter on August 11, 2012, 04:48:42 PM
Stop what?

Maybe, if we kept the generalizations to a minimum, we might actually hear from someone who detransitioned?

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on August 11, 2012, 04:59:38 PM
That topic died pages ago.  BTW there is nothing wrong with a little healthy debate IMO but at some point it just becomes like a cat chasing her tail.

There were posts removed.

Quote from: MadHatter on August 11, 2012, 05:06:35 PM
Take it from someone who sort of kind of detransitioned: for most of us, it's not that big of a deal. We just find who we are and discover that, with time, we're much happier with a "middle ground" existence.

**I'm not talking about those who are really  ftms/mtfs and can't transition out of life circumstance. I'm talking about people who believe they could be either of those, but later on, realize they're not.

Makes sense to me.
....................

If you ever panned for gold most of time you get a pan of sand.  However you don't know which pan will produce a nugget of gold.  I learn when I listen and there are always nuggets of gold tucked in lessons of life.

I would love to have my best friend of 30 years and be able to express myself.  I miss hugging her.

Having gender issues my entire life has been a lonely journey.  Some surgeons are so glad to take your money and we are so vulnerable.  Some are unethical.  It would be nice for me to accept myself and find some peace.

Yes writing and reading others thoughts are therapy for me.

.................
I know which mode makes me happier and many in community know that answer too.

I applaud those that transition to make their life better.

I applaud those that de-transition to make their life better.

I applaud those that sit on fence if neither side looks greener.

I see no difference between a cross dresser that feels they are a woman and does nothing more and a person that gets GCS and feels they are a woman.  That is their experience of life.  It is not correct or incorrect.  It is not better or worse.  It is not more woman or less woman.  It is their choice.

Is a genetic woman that is masculine a woman?  Of course.

Is a genetic woman that enjoys company of other woman a woman?  Of course.

Now big question:

Is a trans woman that is attracted to other women, is masculine and does not get GCS less of a trans woman, than a trans woman that is attracted to men, is very feminine in features voice and body, and has GCS?

Quote from: wendy on August 12, 2012, 11:19:20 AM

Now big question:

Is a trans woman that is attracted to other women, is masculine and does not get GCS less of a trans woman, than a trans woman that is attracted to men, is very feminine in features voice and body, and has GCS?

Absolutely not.  There is no such thing as "less of a trans woman", just as there is no such thing as "less of a woman".

Quote from: wendy on August 12, 2012, 11:19:20 AM
[clipped]

I see no difference between a cross dresser that feels they are a woman and does nothing more and a person that gets GCS and feels they are a woman.  That is their experience of life.  It is not correct or incorrect.  It is not better or worse.  It is not more woman or less woman.  It is their choice.

[clipped]

Hum, ... it is on opinion and quite blend of propositions to boot, yes? An opinion and proposition shared by many? I dare say NO.

Why? I think we all would know that as well.

Creating our own personalized reality like this is not always very helpful either, we soon find out when the 'rubber meets the road'.

Since the sun is green rather than yellow, and I'm naturally Napoleon's Josephine reborn..., let me try to fly this opinion by you.

Will you be able to imagine the general reaction to this, yes?

I'm sure you will want to support me in this opinion (you nice and supportive) it does not hurt anyone either, no?

I'm not too sure at all about most anyone else though ::)

Maybe a case of... what we can't feel, we don't understand...

Axélle

Quote from: MadHatter on August 13, 2012, 12:34:17 PM
I just wanted to say you look unbelievably pretty axelle!

Woopsy - how nice to say so! No more comments about de-transition then  :)

Just got me the nicest disqualification...  ::)

Mwah,
Axélle

Honestly I would rather be put into the ground than have to be all male all the time with no hint of the "real me", I just cant imagine being like that at all!

I love being a girl and if I had only two pennys left to my name....I would still fight to be "me"!

its not always about the clothes or appearance, its all about my "state of mind"  :)

Quote from: Ms. OBrien on August 12, 2012, 11:26:54 AM
Absolutely not.  There is no such thing as "less of a trans woman", just as there is no such thing as "less of a woman".

Words have meanings. If I wake up tomorrow and decide I am Elizabeth I, does that make me Elizabeth I? 

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on August 13, 2012, 01:48:09 PM
Words have meanings. If I wake up tomorrow and decide I am Elizabeth I, does that make me Elizabeth I? 

Only if you decide that is your name.   It still makes you a woman, if you so claim.

Quote from: Ms. OBrien on August 13, 2012, 01:56:08 PM
Only if you decide that is your name.   It still makes you a woman, if you so claim.

OK so the simple fact of declaring that someone is something makes it so? If I wake up tomorrow and declare I am Japanese, then I am Japanese?

Quote from: MadHatter on August 13, 2012, 02:05:18 PM
That's like saying just because you believed you were a woman, it wouldn't make you one. Instead, you'd be male-a highly feminized and castrated one-but your sex would still be male. How do we make these distinctions? Its tricky stuff.

Maybe the trick is just getting rid of the classification. Something that some gender theorists have proposed. As Judith Lorber has posited, gender and sex are socially constructed.  So maybe the term man and woman are meaningless in the final analysis. But society has not gotten there yet.

Quote from: MadHatter on August 13, 2012, 02:46:39 PM
Our entire understandingamd experience of merely existing creates an either social construct or "human" one. When existence is stripped down we only ever experience our world as a human.

Yes, we experience the world as socialized humans. (Am I really a human though, tomorow I might declare I am an orangutan.)  :angel:

This is not and either or proposition. By definition, being human is being a social creature. The species would not have survived had we not developed social structures that allowed us to adapt to our environments.

Genotypes and associated phenotypes exist as a state of nature.

Only the system of classification can be considered a "construct," and that classification is accurate well over the second standard deviation (>95% confidence level).

Quote from: Axélle on August 13, 2012, 12:31:38 PM
Hum, ... it is on opinion and quite blend of propositions to boot, yes? An opinion and proposition shared by many? I dare say NO.

Why? I think we all would know that as well.

Creating our own personalized reality like this is not always very helpful either, we soon find out when the 'rubber meets the road'.

Since the sun is green rather than yellow, and I'm naturally Napoleon's Josephine reborn..., let me try to fly this opinion by you.

Will you be able to imagine the general reaction to this, yes?

I'm sure you will want to support me in this opinion (you nice and supportive) it does not hurt anyone either, no?

I'm not too sure at all about most anyone else though ::)

Maybe a case of... what we can't feel and don't understand...

Axélle

Axelle how do you look so good so fast?  Wow you look great!

.................

Axelle I prefer not to hurt your feelings but this quote by you says a lot, "Maybe a case of... what we can't feel and don't understand..."

..............Flip to next post I am going to write........................
My best friend could not go to a public budget meeting and asked if I would go.  I asked if I could go as me.  She said yes since none of her friends will be there.  She also wanted me to make some positive comments for her function.

I went downtown Atlanta.  I had short hair wig, white female pants, pretty purple blouse, pair of gray Mary Janes, little make-up, and some sterling jewelry.  Off train stop few young black ladies called across street, "You're a pretty Trans and I would not mind being with you."  I made no comment and ignored them.

Made my way over to secure government building and needed ID to get into building.  Lady Officer looked at my picture and I said, "I'm trans." She said O.K. with a nice smile and did her security checks and was pleasant.

At budget meeting some long term friends of my best friend were there.  I sat as a girl and said nothing.  They did not say anything to me. 

At end of meeting state senator asked if there were any other comments.  He called on me and said, "Yes Ma'am please come to mic."  I did my best.  It was O.K.  When I sat down lady next to me said, "That was very good."

I went to ladies room and all other ladies got in after me.  They had to wait on me.  I got out and they were all nice.

Said bye to lady guard and she smiled.

Needed to take a walk because I was so freaking nervous!!! Overheard number of comments.

Old white pan handler asked for money.  I gave him two dollars and he said, "Thank you Ma'am and you look like a person from hippie era."  (Actually I though FFS was to make you look younger since hippies were '60's.)

Took train home and young black man flirted with me and took his cell phone out and took my picture.  People think I look nice but I am not passing all time.

I was glad I did it.  I was nervous.  I remained autistic.  I did not feel wrong.

.............................

I think I am gender fluid.  I can not stay in boy mode for more than a few days but I can do it.  That was first time I have ever talked to public in woman mode and was not with trans friend for support.   It was scary but it was good.  I am so chicken (reference is fear not gender).

For past three nights I wanted inserts removed and today they were O.K.  Certainly helps me pass in woman mode but awful for man mode.  This is my reality.

Maybe fence is where I live instead of where I sit.  I was glad for RLE today.  Hope I can recover.

I do not claim to be TS or MTF but if I take inserts out it will feel like it is de-transitioning even if inserts hurt and were wrong procedure in beginning.

Yes I do believe some cross dressers are TS and they knew it for decades.

Just a thought...

If ALL is being as EQUAL as is being posited --- there would also be NO de-transition in the first place either.

Or would there ???

De-transition from a woman to a woman; or from a man to man ???

Just help me out here, can THIS make sense?

BTW: "... what we cannot feel, WE cannot understand" (what it was supposed to read like)

Elisabeth II, Japanese...  my post-breakfast idea of self for today (yea...they coming to take me away ha ha...)

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on August 13, 2012, 01:48:09 PM
Words have meanings. If I wake up tomorrow and decide I am Elizabeth I, does that make me Elizabeth I?

Always asking the difficult questions O_o ...

I think of "am" as a verb.  I am a woman.  if there is no verb/action then the statement tends to be more of a protest than anything else.  I suppose protesting is an action but it isn't an act of being a woman in this case, rather protesting is a way to draw attention to the opposite condition.  I am not a woman and I am protesting because I am I need to be a woman.  I need for you to recognize that I am female, because you aren't recognizing me as female.  I am "coming out" because this isn't right, you aren't recognizing me as female and now you say that you are but you are simply trying to be nice or politically correct or maybe you hope this is just a phase, a fever that will pass.

Oh but now I am taking ownership.  I ordered hormones or I went to a doctor for hormones or I am taking hormones.  Now I am acting, manifesting, owning...  But it is a process, it doesn't happen all at once.  People might remember to use my preferred pronouns, I may even pass as female socially or at least visually but my ability to interact with others as a woman may be limited but perhaps I am at a stage of life where that doesn't matter so I don't need to take it any farther.

Then again perhaps I am younger and I want to build a career for myself as a female.  I want to build relationships and friendships with people who only know me as female.  Maybe I want to marry and adopt.  Maybe I desire the right to determine who knows about my past and who doesn't because I haven't yet realized that once information is out of my hands it is out of my hands and I need to believe that people can keep secrets because I have an addiction to my secret and I have to share it or I will simply burst because being a woman feels so scary and now that I have taken full ownership of it I want to hand the controls over to someone else because maybe I am experiencing survivor's guilt.  Or maybe I like things kept out of my control.

Just hope you aren't like me because a little is never enough and good intentions make me wretch.

QuoteYes I do believe some cross dressers are TS and they knew it for decades.

An mtf transsexual who cross dresses would wear "male" attire. In other words, a TS cross-dresser would be a Drag King. OTOH if what you are saying is that a bio male wears "female" attire occasionally realizes that she is TS, she was not a cross-dresser to begin with but a TS all along. By definition, a cross-dresser is not a transsexual. 

Quote from: Axélle on August 14, 2012, 01:21:12 AM
Elisabeth II, Japanese...  my post-breakfast idea of self for today (yea...they coming to take me away ha ha...)

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww3.pictures.zimbio.com%2Fgi%2FEmperor%2BAkihito%2BJapan%2BQueen%2BElizabeth%2BII%2BAccompanied%2B-2FrsxtdUbJl.jpg&hash=8c57b68f9d2c001f1b181268f4aa3ded24e9613b)

Axelle you are too funny!  I thought you had good posture? :)

We are discussing gender not your connection to royalty.

Yes a CD that says she is a women is a women.
.......................

Axelle you are having too much fun.  You are baiting me. 

Androgynes are cross wired both directions and they do exist.

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on August 14, 2012, 07:35:41 AM


An mtf transsexual who cross dresses would wear "male" attire. In other words, a TS cross-dresser would be a Drag King. OTOH if what you are saying is that a bio male wears "female" attire occasionally realizes that she is TS, she was not a cross-dresser to begin with but a TS all along. By definition, a cross-dresser is not a transsexual.

This doesn't accord with self-reports of some TS women who began as cross dressers, sometimes for many years. They say, "I was a cross dresser, then I realized that I'm a trans woman," or some such. They actively identify their past selves as having been cross dressers, not "TS all along," as you suggest. ...careful not to project theory onto experience too hastily.

Isn't it a situation were by we may feel WHATEVER, being female (MAAB), Josephine, the Emporer, etc. etc. Yet if what we PRESENT is not what we feel, THEN --- we have an issue. It be a dichotomy of some proportions.

We may feel to be whatever we fancy --- if we do not PRESENT it to the outside, even to our mirror, then our CLAIM will be questioned. Even by us ourselves for that matter, at least at times, yes?

If you feel like a woman and do not represent what a woman is... it is QUITE a stretch to simply demand to be ACKNOWLEDEGED as such.

Presentation and inner state will need to match – in my opinion,
Axélle

Quote from: rachl on August 14, 2012, 08:40:12 AM
This doesn't accord with self-reports of some TS women who began as cross dressers, sometimes for many years. They say, "I was a cross dresser, then I realized that I'm a trans woman," or some such. They actively identify their past selves as having been cross dressers, not "TS all along," as you suggest. ...careful not to project theory onto experience too hastily.

I appreciate the nuanced thinking but your post essentially agrees with what I posted. I would submit, however, that crossdressers who self-identified as cross-dressers were, indeed transsexual "all along" regardless of what they identified as.

For a time, I was in denial about being TS. During that period of denial, did I cease being transsexual?

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on August 14, 2012, 08:58:35 AM
I appreciate the nuanced thinking but your post essentially agrees with what I posted. I would submit, however, that crossdressers who self-identified as cross-dressers were, indeed transsexual "all along" regardless of what they identified as.

For a time, I was in denial about being TS. During that period of denial, did I cease being transsexual?

My post strongly disagrees, actually. Because, you did it again there: you're re-interpreting self-reports again and saying, no, they were mistaken, and were ts all along regardless of what THEY identified as. If the trans* phenomena teach us anything, it's that we have to take self-reports very seriously, and theorize around them, not theorize them away.

You're asking tough metaphysical questions (questions of philosophy: my backyard), and ones I don't have an answer to. They're tough: when does someone start being transsexual? I don't ascribe to the view that one is always trans*: this strikes me as retroactive interpretation of one's life. I think that it's closer to one being trans when one identifies oneself as being trans.

Quote from: Noey Noonesson on August 14, 2012, 04:04:04 AM

I think of "am" as a verb.  I am a woman.  if there is no verb/action then the statement tends to be more of a protest than anything else.  I suppose protesting is an action but it isn't an act of being a woman in this case, rather protesting is a way to draw attention to the opposite condition.  I am not a woman and I am protesting because I am I need to be a woman.  I need for you to recognize that I am female, because you aren't recognizing me as female.  I am "coming out" because this isn't right, you aren't recognizing me as female and now you say that you are but you are simply trying to be nice or politically correct or maybe you hope this is just a phase, a fever that will pass.

Oh but now I am taking ownership.  I ordered hormones or I went to a doctor for hormones or I am taking hormones.  Now I am acting, manifesting, owning...  But it is a process, it doesn't happen all at once.  People might remember to use my preferred pronouns, I may even pass as female socially or at least visually but my ability to interact with others as a woman may be limited but perhaps I am at a stage of life where that doesn't matter so I don't need to take it any farther.

Then again perhaps I am younger and I want to build a career for myself as a female.  I want to build relationships and friendships with people who only know me as female.  Maybe I want to marry and adopt.  Maybe I desire the right to determine who knows about my past and who doesn't because I haven't yet realized that once information is out of my hands it is out of my hands and I need to believe that people can keep secrets because I have an addiction to my secret and I have to share it or I will simply burst because being a woman feels so scary and now that I have taken full ownership of it I want to hand the controls over to someone else because maybe I am experiencing survivor's guilt.  Or maybe I like things kept out of my control.

Just hope you aren't like me because a little is never enough and good intentions make me wretch.

Noey that is very interesting post.  I can not stand secret and I am tired of hiding.  It takes great strength to be a woman.  Society is ignorant.  I do not want to run away and hide my entire existence created while living as a man.  I am too old for that nonsense.  However I am too scared to start again.

To explain level of stress I experienced I have not had a cold sore on my lip in many years.  Two hours after talking in front of state senator, superintendent, commissioners, and people I know for 25 years as a woman I got a cold sore.

Individuals that run our school system want to eliminate electronic media centers to save money.  Media center personnel made strong arguments to keep digital environment for students with current budget.

I argued, as a woman, that budget cuts they have made have reduced highly educated media specialists to clerks to check in/out books instead of teach students about digital resources and how to use them.  I argued budget needs to be increased to re-hire clerks to do repetitive tasks and allow highly educated and paid individuals to teach how to utilize digital resources to both other teachers and students.   

Axelle since you enjoy me squirming, might I recommend a different royal person..................


(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww2.pictures.zimbio.com%2Fgi%2FCharlene%2BWittstock%2BQueen%2BElizabeth%2BII%2BAccompanied%2BBpeYz6tBAl1l.jpg&hash=d96eb265de03e6907ec6587507aae6e470f05889)

Quote from: rachl on August 14, 2012, 10:09:42 AM
My post strongly disagrees, actually. Because, you did it again there: you're re-interpreting self-reports again and saying, no, they were mistaken, and were ts all along regardless of what THEY identified as. If the trans* phenomena teach us anything, it's that we have to take self-reports very seriously, and theorize around them, not theorize them away.

You're asking tough metaphysical questions (questions of philosophy: my backyard), and ones I don't have an answer to. They're tough: when does someone start being transsexual? I don't ascribe to the view that one is always trans*: this strikes me as retroactive interpretation of one's life. I think that it's closer to one being trans when one identifies oneself as being trans.

I would like you to directly address my own experiential question. My earliest recollection was that I was or should have been female--around three to four years old--then I went into a period of denial. During this period, did I cease becoming a transsexual?

As well, I am a recovering addict/alcoholic. The consensus of opinion--at least in the recovery community--is that we were alcoholic-addicts before we picked up the first drink and will always be addict/alcoholics... which seems to refute your self-reporting theory.

Quote from: wendy on August 14, 2012, 01:45:42 PM
Axelle since you enjoy me squirming, might I recommend a different royal person..................

Josephine (Napoleon's sweetie-pie AND wife) was NOT a royal ever. Will that help to know?
I can relate to her, it's why I mentioned her.
She ALSO could not bear children, was quite sexy, (I'm told I am), and liked to DRESS – OH YES!, I do too, she  was stylish, I like stylish... and older (well, then HIM)

I feel like her, does that make ME Josephine? Hum...  :angel:

Axélle

This thread seems to be drifting for the OP's question, please stay on track.

Quote from: Axélle on August 14, 2012, 02:40:46 PM
Josephine (Napoleon's sweetie-pie AND wife) was NOT a royal ever. Will that help to know?
I can relate to her, it's why I mentioned her.
She ALSO could not bear children, was quite sexy, (I'm told I am), and liked to DRESS – OH YES!, I do too, she  was stylish, I like stylish... and older (well, then HIM)

I feel like her, does that make ME Josephine? Hum...  :angel:

Axélle

Axelle Josephine is dead and you are not.  I actually have extremely low ability to relate to anyone but myself.  I take your words, process them against my experiences and then interpret them incorrectly.  Where young rude girls that said "cute trans girl" complementing me or making fun of me?  I interpreted them as complementing me but they were rude.

I do not even understand your question? "I feel like her, does that make ME Josephine? Hum...  :angel:"

So?  You feel like her?  That's O.K.  Are you Josephine?  If you are then you are reincarnated or delusional.

Do I feel like a girl?  Yes.  Am I a girl?  How would I know?  I was born a genetic male!

Do I think I can survive in society as a girl?  No.  Basically I interact with humans at an intellectual level.

Many in society are finding it uncomfortable to be around me including many in community.

I am of opinion that each person experiences their own reality and they decide how to best navigate.

They will make incorrect choices whether they make no decision or make a decision.  That is life.

My gut tells me purpose of this thread is to listen to people that are TS and de-transitioned. 

However if someone is TS and they de-transitioniton I am not sure people would believe they were TS.

I only claim I have gender issues and may not be TS  and I am trying to anchor sailboat.

Anchoring sailboat feels like de-transition.

I personally know of no TS that de-transitioned but I know of many that anchored along way.

I personally know of six people that identify as "in-between" CD and TS.

My own sister is a lesbian and told me she does not feel like a girl but is not a man and is androgynous.

That is my only sibling.

I do not feel like Josephine.  I feel like me and me is anchoring or I will crash.  I feel unhappy.


 

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on August 14, 2012, 02:40:24 PM
I would like you to directly address my own experiential question. My earliest recollection was that I was or should have been female--around three to four years old--then I went into a period of denial. During this period, did I cease becoming a transsexual?

As well, I am a recovering addict/alcoholic. The consensus of opinion--at least in the recovery community--is that we were alcoholic-addicts before we picked up the first drink and will always be addict/alcoholics... which seems to refute your self-reporting theory.

I don't have an answer to that; I said that I think it's a very difficult question. But what we should always do is take the self-reports of trans* persons seriously (called first-person authority), instead of theorizing them away, as you did.

And no, I think that "recovery community" is full of ->-bleeped-<-. You're the one demanding studies as evidence; what evidence do they have?

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on August 14, 2012, 02:40:24 PM
I would like you to directly address my own experiential question. My earliest recollection was that I was or should have been female--around three to four years old--then I went into a period of denial. During this period, did I cease becoming a transsexual?

As well, I am a recovering addict/alcoholic. The consensus of opinion--at least in the recovery community--is that we were alcoholic-addicts before we picked up the first drink and will always be addict/alcoholics... which seems to refute your self-reporting theory.

Cal some people that smoke or drink have an affinity to be addicts.  If they never smoke or drink then they are not addicted and therefore are not addicts.  However if they take one drink or smoke one cigarette they are addicted.

Can people be something that they do not realize?  That is rhetorical and answer is of course!

I will raise question in one of my group therapy sessions if someone that is TS can de-transition.

My guess is all combinations exist in nature and when you insist that your reality is only reality for others you are mathematically incorrect.  You only need one example to disprove "all".

I feel that there are TS folks that have died with their secret.  Certainly TG folks have died with their secret.

Is there a TS person on forum that de-transitioned or is there a TG person that de-transitioned because they are an androgyne? Is that question of thread?

I've read quite a few account of detransitioners but they generally lacked the feeling of being wrong since childhood and detransitioned because they missed the male life.

I think with FtMs there is a different set of dynamics at work as  a great many FtMs have alway spent many years as lesbians and after transition they stay in the lesbian world.

Uk and Eurpopean gender clincis claim there is a 90% drop out/detransition rate but without backup of follow up its hard to know how many re-transition though some make the front page.

Quote from: rachl on August 14, 2012, 08:40:12 AM
This doesn't accord with self-reports of some TS women who began as cross dressers, sometimes for many years. They say, "I was a cross dresser, then I realized that I'm a trans woman," or some such. They actively identify their past selves as having been cross dressers, not "TS all along," as you suggest. ...careful not to project theory onto experience too hastily.

I think Berkley was seeing the deeper truth.

When I was young my mother commented that I talked and acted like, "a little queer".  She told me not to talk or act like that because people would think I was "a little ->-bleeped-<-got".  Her words, not mine.  She put the fear in my mind that I had to conform to expectations in order to be accepted so at the tender age of maybe seven, eight or nine...  I started trying to talk and act in ways what would appeal to my mother and my father.  Dad was always trying to get me to hold my shoulders up so I would look more masculine.  I was put back a year (second grade) and the reason was that I needed to catch up with the other boys physically...

Also the fear of Hell fire was put into me, that if I didn't conform to these expectations that I would spend eternity in Hell, suffering eternal torture and all this was done by the people who were supposed to love me more than anyone else.  My protectors and providers, my parents.  And I the first born didn't have the experiences of an older sibling to refer to so it all struck me as a absolutely necessary reality, life or death.  And why would my parents lie to me or steer me wrong, that thought was unfathomable.

What happened after a few years was that I came to believe that I was a heterosexual male.  I was never happy, I was miserable, reckless and suicidal, never a moment of happiness.  I felt like a shadow, an observer.  I felt like I didn't have a body, I was just two eyes looking out at the world seeing other people having lives.

But I believed I was a heterosexual male.  I had become afraid of gay men.  I was so afraid of becoming one of them that I couldn't even entertain the idea that I could ever be one of them, instead I experienced fear which turned to anger and hatred.  I never acted on my feelings but my head was a very unhappy place.

I didn't believe that transition was possible for me.  I was too old, too masculine.  My hands were too big.  No one would ever accept me.  my family would disown me.  Eventually I began to explore myself.  Who was I really?  All this praying and never an answer to my prayers.  Obviously god despised me.  Time for me to despise god.  I set about not believing in god.  It gave me liberty to explore my needs.  But I honestly believed that transition would be impossible and for a time I thought maybe I could be a "->-bleeped-<-" (I had recently learned about them on the Internet having bought my first computer).  Then eventually I began going to gender support meetings and I identified (reluctantly) as a crossdresser because I believed I was limited to that, being I would never succeed at transition.

But I was wrong and I wasted a lot of years that could have been happy and productive.  Life managed to become so uncomfortable and meaningless, joyless that I was forced to transition.  The only alternative was to die.  Was I ever really a crossdresser or a ->-bleeped-<-?  Depends on how you look at it.  Still does.  When people are told a story that I am a woman who used to be a man they believe that story, they believe that I am a man who wants to be a woman.  It doesn't matter that I have been living as a female since 2005.  All of that becomes invisible to them.  They believe that the kit car is really a VW bug and not a Ferrari because they will never understand that being a woman is a verb.  A woman is not an object or a thing.  A woman is a being.  Being a woman is all about the being.  It doesn't matter if you were a possum or a rock lobster in your previous incarnation.  Except it does matter to non-trans people and some trans people and it always will.  Because non-trans people don't believe in magic because like Axelle likes to say, "People can't understand what they have never experienced."

If you need to transition to have a life quit stalling, get it over with and get on with the being.  And own your womanhood or manhood.  Don't spend your life seeking acceptance because no one is worthy enough to give it to you.  You have to cultivate acceptance within yourself.  You CANNOT get it from someone else, not REAL acceptance.  You will never even know what acceptance really is until you learn to accept yourself so how could someone possibly give it to you, you wouldn't even recognize it if you never experienced it before (within yourself).

Transition isn't a secret, it isn't a lie.  It's about owning yourself.  When you seek acceptance other people own you.  When you live your life with a secret it's because you are allowing yourself to be owned by the consciences of everyone else except yourself.  When you accept yourself you realize that the secret is that you have always been male or female.  Assuming you are a transsexual in my own understanding of the definition.  But a familiar environment will never allow you to achieve success because it will depend upon the ability of others to accept you and it will prevent you from ever experiencing real acceptance.  It will become a drug and you will become the addict, always needing a new fix.  Always disappointed with the high and at the end of the day you will be destitute, trying to figure out how to get your next fix.  Thinking to yourself that maybe that next fix will be the one that finally makes everything right.

Acceptance is a lie.  But you can learn to accept yourself through being.  Being is an action.  Take action.  Until you actually accept yourself "acceptance" will always be a substitute, a drug, a fix.  You won't know acceptance but someone will sell you something they call "acceptance" and you will buy it, because you won't know any better.  How could you?  What they are really selling you is the most destructive and addictive drug known to man, one that turns people into empty shells, zombies... addicts.  Don't fall for it. 

Go through that gate, the one that others are too afraid to enter and you will find yourself.  Learn to base your life on truth, on that foundation within yourself that you have always been male or female.  Right now it may be hidden in the sand but once you begin building upon it you will always know where it is and that it is down there beneath everything.  Let it be your support.  Let it be the basis of everything you create in life.  No one else will ever see your foundation because it is buried in the earth.  Don't expect them to see it or believe in it.  Like some dude said eons ago, "They will know you not by your words but by your actions."  The truth is that words, even the most eloquent words will undo everything you work for and turn your life into a "story", a fable.  If you want to be 'it' (if you want a life) you will only ever experience any success by being 'it', the life you seek.  Narratives that tell a different story than that of being what you really are will always betray you.  Unless you are comfortable with people knowing that you are someone who eternally wants to be.  And wanting to be is so nostalgic and you can romance it to the grave.  But being will actually allow you to have a life.  Assuming that a life is what you need, one where you can be who you really are in a binary existence.  Because in the shared-reality that we call the human experience a woman can be masculine and a man can be feminine but a man can never become a woman.  Unless you realize (by being) and experience that you have always been this thing that you seek to become, you will NEVER attain it.  Realize that it is already within you and learn to make it real.  You can't do that with words or statements or coming out letters or documentaries or YouTube channels.

Quote from: rachl on August 14, 2012, 03:58:35 PM


And no, I think that "recovery community" is full of ->-bleeped-<-.

Tell that to the millions of people who have found sobriety through Alcoholics Anonymous and the thousands who gotten clean on programs such as the one that helped me: Kaiser-Permanente's Chemical Dependency Recovery Program. And to David Pating, MD, PhD, (Program Director for Kaiser CDRP San Francisco)  or to Bill Wison and Dr. Bob Smith. 

Wow, Noey...another  amazing "dissertation."

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on August 14, 2012, 07:35:41 AM


An mtf transsexual who cross dresses would wear "male" attire. In other words, a TS cross-dresser would be a Drag King. OTOH if what you are saying is that a bio male wears "female" attire occasionally realizes that she is TS, she was not a cross-dresser to begin with but a TS all along. By definition, a cross-dresser is not a transsexual.

That is technically correct, I believe.

Quote from: lilacwoman on August 14, 2012, 04:23:43 PM
Uk and Eurpopean gender clincis claim there is a 90% drop out/detransition rate but without backup of follow up its hard to know how many re-transition though some make the front page.

I seriously doubt that myself. From my 12 years of experiences following cases of trans people on the internet, the detransition rate is below 5%.

dropping out is not the same as detransitioning and the figure of 90% is quoted by the gender clinics themselves.

the essence of transsexualism before it got all muddied up by the transgenderqueer nonsense was that a transsexual is born and labelled as one sex and gender when inside they feel the other and thanks to the nurturing and desire to fit in a TS will quite easily appear to be the sex and gender forced upon it.

If it were possible to turn the clock back ten or twenty years we would find that a large number of the happy fully transitioned post-ops of today were perfectly camouflaged as normal hetero males. 

But if it were possible to poke into their brains and see what they are thinking we would no doubt find that while laying bricks, repairing trucks or firing artillary their mind was constantly wondering how to stop doing it and become just another woman with a family and female pursuits.

This might be why transitioners get such anger and hostility from friends and colleagues?  Its almost as though they have been betrayed or tainted by having known us for some time.

The ones I personally know  who detransitioned post op  don't make passable 'men' anymore.
One doesn't call zhirself male, not female, not MTF but TG. Post op regret.

The other one went back to living as a male, calling himself a man (again). Post op very deep regret.

Both didn't have FFS, only HRT and SRS.

Even  having their breastimplants removed and being on testosterone still makes them very strange to look at.

Causing new and different social, emotional en mental problems.

I'm for decades on HRT and (remain) non op and I'm quite pleased with my life in general...work too.....
And both are projecting their misery onto me, thinking it would be 'easy' for me to revert to living as a male because I'm non op anyway.

I would make an even stranger looking 'man' than they are...plus I'm not planning to go back anyway.

One thing I remember about my life prior to transition was that I didn't really think about the details of my life.  I was able to push things down enough that I was just sorta depressed and angry.  I didn't contemplate the details of my life and focused on being "numb".  They say guys tend to experience two emotions, angry and horny.  I found that to be true in my own experience.

I was also purposefully stupid (and honestly I am still recovering).  I ignored and shut out what I knew and made myself believe a bunch of lies.  I didn't question things.  All I knew how to do was respect "authority" and fear.  I was a zombie, the walking dead.  I had no future and honestly I had no past either.  I was so stupid and repressed that it never occurred to me what I needed to do until I had read about others doing it.  And even then I never imagined that it would ever be possible for me.

Transition seemed like willful insanity to me.  It seemed cost-prohibitive and self-destructive.  My baby steps spanned four years.  Then SRS and I still didn't go full-time or "come out" to anyone until 12 months later.

I like being able to talk to people like myself.  People who have gone through what I have gone through.  People who are like-minded and share the same dreams and goals.  But I also respect the gender-benders, gender-queer, etc.  I like people who challenge me because otherwise I settle into judgment and narrow-mindedness.  A friend recently visited and helped me to see that I have been isolating myself with my ideas.  Limiting my existence.  That makes me feel like less of a person than I want to be.  I admire my friend and I worry for her.  But I think my fears are probably unfounded.  She has honed her perceptions and she knows the world better than I do.  I want to be more like her, but I will always be me.  I believe that when we stop growing, we begin dying.

We all want to be loved.  I want people to love a female when they love me because anything else just feels wrong but sometimes plain old love is enough.  You get what you need when you need it enough, whatever that may be.  My parents love me even if they don't really believe in me.  Right now that is all I have and it's a blessing and a curse.  Better than a curse and a curse I guess.

Quote from: wendy on August 14, 2012, 03:39:03 PM
Axelle Josephine is dead and you are not.  I actually have extremely low ability to relate to anyone but myself.  I take your words, process them against my experiences and then interpret them incorrectly.  Where young rude girls that said "cute trans girl" complementing me or making fun of me?  I interpreted them as complementing me but they were rude.

I do not even understand your question? "I feel like her, does that make ME Josephine? Hum...  :angel:"

So?  You feel like her?  That's O.K.  Are you Josephine?  If you are then you are reincarnated or delusional.

Do I feel like a girl?  Yes.  Am I a girl?  How would I know?  I was born a genetic male!

Do I think I can survive in society as a girl?  No.  Basically I interact with humans at an intellectual level.

Many in society are finding it uncomfortable to be around me including many in community.

I am of opinion that each person experiences their own reality and they decide how to best navigate.

They will make incorrect choices whether they make no decision or make a decision.  That is life.

My gut tells me purpose of this thread is to listen to people that are TS and de-transitioned. 

However if someone is TS and they de-transitioniton I am not sure people would believe they were TS.

I only claim I have gender issues and may not be TS  and I am trying to anchor sailboat.

Anchoring sailboat feels like de-transition.

I personally know of no TS that de-transitioned but I know of many that anchored along way.

I personally know of six people that identify as "in-between" CD and TS.

My own sister is a lesbian and told me she does not feel like a girl but is not a man and is androgynous.

That is my only sibling.

I do not feel like Josephine.  I feel like me and me is anchoring or I will crash.  I feel unhappy.

Life gives us some things and eventually takes all of those things away from us.  There are no wrong decisions in the big scheme of things.  In eighty years what will it matter?  Time erases everything.  I lost my life savings in a stock market investment.  Perhaps loosing that money saved my life.  Perhaps somewhere down the road I will avoid something worse because of that experience.

People don't feel like men or women.  Even in that song by Shania Twain she illustrates how experiences make us feel a certain way.  Some crossdressers feel like the other sex by putting on clothes (an experience of sorts).  Going out dancing, getting attention from the opposite sex, looking good...  that is sure to create feelings.  The most intense feeling of being a woman that I ever had and consider a epiphany was accidentally having sex with someone who didn't realize I had transitioned.  He thought I was born female.  That experience changed my own beliefs about life and myself.

It doesn't matter what people intended to convey to you by saying you were a pretty trans girl because it is never about us, it is always about the person making the comment.  People use other people to vent their own self hate and fear.  What they cannot accept about themselves they despise in others.  When someone makes fun of someone they are expressing their own fears of rejection.  It's never about us.  How could it be?

To men women are mysterious and I think that to some aspiring transsexuals women are mysterious and everything is so... "profound". (For lack of a better word).  I mean... Early in my own transition it was like women's clothing had some special power.  Now it's just clothes.  Women's vaginas were a mystery, now they aren't.  The female form seemed to have some kind of special power over me, occasionally it still does unless that no longer happens either.  I'm not sure.

What makes me feel like a woman is being with my opposite, a man.  Especially a tall, manly man.  That really makes me feel like a woman.  Otherwise I usually just feel like a person.  Many people who transition M2F express disappointment after SRS because they thought the surgery was going to make them feel like a woman.  Nope, it's experience and 'being' that makes someone feel a certain way, it's doing.  When I relax I feel relaxed.  If I lie down in a hammock in the shade I will probably feel relaxed, I probably won't feel like a woman.  If I am intimately engaged with a masculine guy (my opposite), I will probably feel like a woman.  Other women are something to compare myself to and honestly I prefer to avoid most of them because they make me feel like less of a woman, except for less attractive, less fit women...  Then I begin to feel better about myself.  Part of the human condition.

You are right, you were born male.  How could you possibly know you are a woman?  I felt the exact same way.  How could I possibly know I was a woman?  I found my knowing in being.  When I was able to have the experiences of being a woman I knew it was right for me.  I gained those experiences by going out into public dressed as a female and those experiences grew into deeper and more meaningful experiences as I progressed.  Conversely those experiences helped me to realize just how wrong being a male was for me.  There was no going back and there never will be.

One thing that helped me to understand this topic better was death.  When someone dies they are no longer a person.  A dead body is a corpse, not a person.  When someone dies they go from being one thing to not being that thing and to being something else.  A corpse is not a person, a corpse is not a woman or a man.  A corpse may be male or female but it is a corpse, not a man or a woman.  While we may be female deep down inside unless we are living it we aren't really it.  Just as a seed is not a tree. The seed of womanhood was planted inside of me but the experience of being a seed is much different from being a tree.  A seed doesn't know what it is like to be a tree because it hasn't had that experience, still there is that intuition.  The seed has an idea but it is the choice of the seed whether to grow or wither in it's husk.

QuoteBlossom."There came a time when the risk to remain tight in the bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom." - Anais Nin

Most people don't do something until they absolutely have to.  I admire the people who act before they absolutely have to and consider them my superior.

Reasons people detransition...

The cost of transition was too high.  People loose their loved ones and detransition in order to have them back in their lives.

Lack of "acceptance" or really inability to be perceived as transitioned sex.  Most of the time people try to convince friends, coworkers and family that they are actually their transitioned sex and eventually they tire of trying to convince everyone because people never actually buy it.  Especially true the later transitioners.  Sometimes love is enough, sometimes it isn't.  Sometimes people withdraw their love.  When people talk about acceptance they are usually talking about love because generally speaking 99.999 percent of the population believes that people are the sex they were born as.

The belief that transition will allow one to finally feel/be male or female.  Or the belief that surgery will change a person's life.  Surgery won't change your life but it can create a platform for changing one's life.  Some people have surgery and stay in the relationship they have always been in around the same people they have always known.  Their lives don't really change but they got a nice souvenir.  And some people like to collect things. 

Still different strokes for different folks, a true crossdresser is satisfied with wearing the opposite sex's clothing for a while.  I knew someone like that.  Some people just like wearing the clothes or having the body.  Some people need the socialization or want to fit correctly with the opposite sex.  I have often questioned my own motivations.  Was I a gay boy with a Peter Pan condition, always wanting to remain prepubescent, pretty and young?  Maybe..  Maybe it's more complicated than that.  Maybe it isn't.  I am pretty sure it had to do with more than a Peter Pan condition.  Did I transition to avoid being gay?  Lots of gay men prefer the younger men, certainly lots of older men prefer younger women.  Maybe I just wanted to hold onto something.  I will never really know and life certainly isn't perfect.  Not for long anyway.  Really it matters what you do with it.  Some people are only happy when they are struggling or miserable.  People are strange.  Make the best of it I guess, stick with what brings lasting contentment, try for joy even.

Wendy,
all sounding like a non-therapy DIY trip of proportions... and it goes to show that early 'good' therapist input will have its value.
A situation closely related to de-transitioning – in my opinion.

It's like deciding to climb Mount Everest DIY, or reinventing the wheel, or some such. It makes for quite a dramatic read, at least to me.

Noey,
your second last post is one 'out of the park' (home runs) after another - you obviously had plenty opportunity to get those 'ducks in a row'.
For binary folks like myself there is not one sentence that doesn't ring true. Once more, VERY well put and with a very authentic and real feel.

Thank you all,
Axélle

Maybe you living in the wrong place after all? We have at M&S (Woolworth) lace bras 44F ! - NO SWEAT. Note: DD -> E -> F ! NOW we talking SIZE, honey!
One might argue you are still a tad under-developed?  ;D

Just saying, though 650cc IMPLANTS (BTW) is what I got for BOTH ... actually 630cc/2 = 315cc Implants each side, even got a 'manual' for EACH!

All this reading sounds like merry go-round between transition and de-transition.

Could qualify for the Guinness Book of Records for the most de-transitions by a single person... just saying  ;)

Axx

QuoteSince I had close to 650cc turbo chargers under my pecs

---Wendy


What possessed you to get these oversized implants?

Thank you for sharing, Wendy.

Quite a sad story.  I can only hope it gets better for you and you can live your true life as the woman you are/\.