Susan's Place Transgender Resources

FTM transition: testosterone month 8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2WzDdPj3W0#)

I found this really fascinating. He says he suddenly stopped crying because it caught him off guard and sounded so strange. Of course, I'm sure this is as he said mostly related to how it just sounded strange due to being unexpected and his first time crying with that voice. At the same I can't help but wonder how much societal conditioning is impacting. "I"m a man. Men aren't supposed to cry!"

It dares to yet again raise that nature vs. nurture argument again. Many guys say they are less emotional on T or they cry less. Is it a direct result or more the result of other things and conforming to societal expectations of maleness?

i cry more when I watch sad Tv shows (army wives leaves me a dissolving mess lol) but i cry less for real life things.
i used to cry when i got really upset or frustrated, but now I'm more apt to get mad. not like, throwing things mad, just kinda simmering "grr". i never realy cried when i was sad, except when a pet died :C

I can't speak for anyone else but I can certainly say that being on T hasn't affected my ability to cry. I honestly don't think that testosterone affects the ability to cry in and of itself. I tear up just as easily as I did before T. In fact, my husband and I both teared up about two days ago. I think a lot of the "T makes it so you can't cry" is societal and maybe that the hormones make the person feel more happy. I am less prone to crying because I feel depressed - but that's because I feel less depressed. My husband (bio guy) and I were both taught that it was okay to cry, so we don't feel any shame in it.

I personally find it very sad that many boys are taught at a young age that crying isn't okay. I'm the oldest child of 6 in my family (and the only "girl"), and I have told my father so many times that its okay for my younger brothers to cry. Failing that, I told them it was okay. I'm just glad that my brothers know its okay to cry. I can't imagine how it must feel to be taught that expressing sadness is a bad thing.

Quote from: Ayden on August 18, 2012, 08:31:33 AM
I am less prone to crying because I feel depressed - but that's because I feel less depressed.

Excellent! I have wondered this about a lot of trans guys. Maybe you're just not sad as much for obvious reasons.

QuoteMy husband (bio guy) and I were both taught that it was okay to cry, so we don't feel any shame in it.

Also a cis guy here and I have said before that I cry easily, sometimes even when I'd like very much not to, like at a moment when it's just plain awkward. I think back and recall my dad saying that I was always very sensitive, but he never spoke about it like it was a bad thing. In fact he seemed to appreciate that about me and even seemed to treat it as a positive quality. I have a lot of beefs about my dad, but he did get some things right. He did his best to make me feel okay about being gay, for instance, at a time when there was a lot more taboo surrounding it. It may have even saved me from a certain amount of abuse. I learned that my dad beat my brother a lot. I only got spanked once by him in my teens to my recollection. My dad even said one time that it didn't seem necessary to hit me because I would visibly cringe and and cower just when he would raise his voice (maybe because I saw what he did to my brother?). It's a little disturbing when I reflect back on that with the knowledge that he was so abusive in general.

QuoteI can't imagine how it must feel to be taught that expressing sadness is a bad thing.

*applause*

I do wish that I could control it better when it's embarrassing to do so, but overall I'm glad I can cry when I need to.

I usually silent cry, I don't think that will change when I get on T but who knows...

I feel as if I'm physically unable to all out ball. My eyes feel on the dry side and the most I do is shed a few tears.

I was never one to cry much even before HRT. I was never one to cry from physical pain or because something was "sad" per se.
I only cry when I can't deal with built up stress any longer and that's pretty much how it's always been.

On one hand, I'm not entirely willing to cite T as a reason for being unable to cry. But I have been in a LOT of situations lately where pre-transition me would cry and I just haven't shed a tear. In fact I still get caught off-guard by that fact, and find myself wishing I were able to let it out and get the negativity out. Instead of sadness I definitely feel more anger. And T is the furthest thing from my mind all the time, the novelty wore off really quick so I no longer think "oh I'm on T so that's why this is happening." It's just the way things are going for me. There's gotta be something to it. Whether hormones are just allowing me to come into my own, or if it's something about testosterone itself that usually lends itself to anger over sadness in the face of stress and negativity.

im finding it harder to  cry - even when enduring physical pain, i dropped a pond on myself (lol?) and landed on some rocks, and i wanted to cry, all the signs were there, instead the tears never came and i just stood there like an idiot hyperventilating in frustration  ::) silly bodies

I've shed a few tears but not cried to the point where my voice was involved since starting T. I doubt it has anything to do with hormones, but more with my situation improving and feeling more in-control of things.

I actually never thought of it sounding different. That guys reaction sounded pretty funny though. :laugh:

When I was a kid, I cried at least once everyday. I was so much emotional and cried more frequently than girls. Also, boys harassed me and I cried. My nicknames at that time were like crybaby, girl, woman and etc. It stopped when I entered high school and all classmates had to study hard to pass exams for college.

Barbie~~

Quote from: RagingShadow on August 18, 2012, 07:41:14 AM
i cry more when I watch sad Tv shows (army wives leaves me a dissolving mess lol) but i cry less for real life things.
i used to cry when i got really upset or frustrated, but now I'm more apt to get mad. not like, throwing things mad, just kinda simmering "grr". i never realy cried when i was sad, except when a pet died :C

This is me pretty much.  I barely cried when my uncle or a good friend died, but I like straight up bawl at commercials, and tv shows.

I'm a total cry-er. It could very well be wrapped up in the fact that I'm also legitimately empathetic. Sometimes OTHER people's emotions overwhelm me. I wouldn't say I get emotional the same way as a female does though. For me, it's different. I can't really explain it.

I think as a whole though, society still views crying as a weakness – especially if you're male.

Quote from: dalebert on August 18, 2012, 07:34:44 AM
Many guys say they are less emotional on T or they cry less. Is it a direct result or more the result of other things and conforming to societal expectations of maleness?

From a reverse perspective, I could say that before being on HRT, I was very bad at crying. I couldn't do it very often, or very deeply, compared to how I've been able to cry since HRT has taken effect.

So, in my experience, I would say that testosterone impaired my ability to cry. To be angry, or to experience most other emotions, was, however, very easy. I certainly wanted to be able to cry, and cry well, and that desire persists to this day - except, now it is more an appreciation of the fact that I can cry, and do so meaningfully. Nothing has changed, really, though I am somewhat less depressed.

On that basis, I say that societal conditioning has a relatively small effect on whether a testosterone'd person cries or not.

Quote from: dalebert on August 18, 2012, 09:07:22 AM
Also a cis guy here and I have said before that I cry easily, sometimes even when I'd like very much not to, like at a moment when it's just plain awkward. I think back and recall my dad saying that I was always very sensitive, but he never spoke about it like it was a bad thing. In fact he seemed to appreciate that about me and even seemed to treat it as a positive quality. I have a lot of beefs about my dad, but he did get some things right. He did his best to make me feel okay about being gay, for instance, at a time when there was a lot more taboo surrounding it. It may have even saved me from a certain amount of abuse. I learned that my dad beat my brother a lot. I only got spanked once by him in my teens to my recollection. My dad even said one time that it didn't seem necessary to hit me because I would visibly cringe and and cower just when he would raise his voice (maybe because I saw what he did to my brother?). It's a little disturbing when I reflect back on that with the knowledge that he was so abusive in general.

Its interesting, because my dad was actually much, much harder on me even though I'm the only biological female in the family, but I suspect it was because of a few reasons, mostly that I was the oldest and we are too similar to have one of us in a position of power. Our family was a pretty rough place with my dad always working and my mother strung out on whatever drug was her choice that month. Crying was pretty much how I stayed sane through some of the times. I used to end up with three crying kids in my bed when I was teenager all the time, and I think that oddly, it made us all closer and helped them to get through that time relatively okay. It was my mom who encouraged us to cry when we were younger, and like you with your dad, its one of the things she got spot on and it stuck with the brothers too. I can't tell you the number of times they have called me crying - the last time my second brother was upset and then angry that he couldn't stop crying. He was in the bathroom as his school, poor kid. I totally get the crying at awkward times.

Your experience reminds me of my oldest little brother though - he's 18 now, but he has always been a very sensitive person. Rather than my father berating him now he appreciates that he is so consciouses of others feelings and is as empathetic as he is. It took a while, but I'm glad my father finally got there. I remember once my dad yelled at my brother to stop crying and act his age during one of my holiday visits after I left home. He and I ended up in a shouting match, and he told me later that he remembered what I said before I walked out of the room to find my brother - "Never tell your kids they can't have emotions. We're not your puppets." We always fought, but he told me that it reminded him of our last argument before I ran away at 16.

Its also nice to heard that your father was supportive of you. It's still a hard lot of gay men and lesbians, its certainly gotten a damn sight better, but there is a long way to go sadly. I'm glad you had support when you needed it. I hope my dad can be as supportive like yours - my brother told me a few years ago that he was gay. I remember the conversation pretty well. It was before I began transition and he called me. It was something like this:

"Sis, I'm gay."
"Okay."
"Okay? That's it?"
"Yep."
"Huh. Hope dad's that easy to tell. He lets me bawl my eyes out, but he got ticked when he thought I was checking out Bruce Willis."
"Bruce Willis, huh? Alan Rickman's way better. So, how'd you do on that test?" :laugh: 

It was the same when I told him I was trans. "So, bro - I'm transitioning - I'm a dude." (exact words)
"I always wondered why you couldn't do your hair. ... Explains the sock cock I found when I was looking for your diary too."  :laugh:

I do wonder though, honestly, what life would have been like if we had been taught that crying was a sign of weakness. I don't even want to imagine how hard it would have been for my brothers. Its sad that society tells men that emotions make them weak. Whatever happened to the Renaissance men, y'know?

Quote from: Ayden on August 19, 2012, 01:53:14 AM
I do wonder though, honestly, what life would have been like if we had been taught that crying was a sign of weakness. I don't even want to imagine how hard it would have been for my brothers. Its sad that society tells men that emotions make them weak. Whatever happened to the Renaissance men, y'know?

It is sad. I see crying, and the ability to cry, as a beautiful expression. I would hope that the person I end up with, if there indeed is such a person, would cry every now and then - though, that desire is in conflict with my desire for them to not be unhappy.

Showing emotions is wonderful, and if a guy does so, I find him more attractive. I really hope it catches on...

its harder to cry on T, its like even if I want too I just cant, so I feel more like I get very annoyed, which was hard to get used too.
--
I think its a good way to cry to get away with your emotions, but on the other hand I also always hated to cry so I both like and dislike the changings.
when I was small I always tried to hide it so much that I would sound very very strange like someone was strangling me and it would only make it worse. I dont remember my grown up sound when I cry since I stopped making sounds when I cry as I got into my teen years.

I'm still of the mindset that we are conditioned as men to conform to expectations of not expressing emotion. It's not a conscious thing. It's ingrained in us.

Quote from: dalebert on August 19, 2012, 01:09:04 PM
I'm still of the mindset that we are conditioned as men to conform to expectations of not expressing emotion. It's not a conscious thing. It's ingrained in us.

And you are saying this is why we can't cry after T?  I don't buy it.

Quote from: dalebert on August 19, 2012, 01:09:04 PM
I'm still of the mindset that we are conditioned as men to conform to expectations of not expressing emotion. It's not a conscious thing. It's ingrained in us.

That's interesting.
So, if this was the case with trans guys as well, do you think that's because after T many subconsciously feel fully accepted as men and begin adjusting to those social pressures?

Quote from: Anon on August 19, 2012, 07:33:13 PM
That's interesting.
So, if this was the case with trans guys as well, do you think that's because after T many subconsciously feel fully accepted as men and begin adjusting to those social pressures?

I think a lot of trans guys take cues from the media or what we can perceive as being typical male behavior. But the problem is, in my opinion, we were not raised in that social role so we learn our behaviors at an older age and through different means. Depending on location and how acceptable some traits and actions are I think will absolutely affect us. If you live in a place where men are quiet, you will probably learn to be quiet. I can't think of any other reason so many trans guys suddenly become so "I'm a man, I'm macho" after getting on T. They are conforming to what their society tells them is normal male behavior. At the end of the day its all they can do because no matter what we may wish we weren't raised in that social role. Just like a lot of us probably know more about socializing in women's circles than we want to because we had to learn to survive and that was the role we were raised in.

I'm not saying hormones don't play a part. Maybe for some guys sure it makes it harder to cry, just like it changes the way you smell - it plays with the chemicals in your body. But I don't think it can be said that for *all* trans guys being on T makes it harder to cry. Hormones don't fundamentally change who you are. To use myself as an example - I was loud, dorky and had no concept of when to shut up pre T. I'm the same now, but just a happier, goofier version because I feel good. Its like liquid confidence that I stab into my thigh every other week. I think that saying all the positive mental changes trans guys get after starting hormones is because the of T is actually taking away something. They felt confident and happy so they were able to be themselves. We do that - not the hormones.

Quote from: RagingShadow on August 18, 2012, 07:41:14 AM
i cry more when I watch sad Tv shows (army wives leaves me a dissolving mess lol) but i cry less for real life things.
i used to cry when i got really upset or frustrated, but now I'm more apt to get mad. not like, throwing things mad, just kinda simmering "grr". i never realy cried when i was sad, except when a pet died :C

This is pretty much me as well.  I used to cry at everything, especially when angry or frustrated.  Now it's mainly just sad tv shows/movies/commercials.  I did break down a couple weeks ago during a moment of severe lower dysphoria.  I couldn't believe how hard I cried.  Gross sobbing basically.  That's extremely rare for me. 

Sometimes I feel like I'm going to tear up at work when a patient expresses how grateful they are or how much they have accomplished.  I guess that's a feeling of pride in my patients and I don't actually cry, so to me it doesn't count lol

I remember hearing something about how men's tear ducts are smaller then women's, and that's why it's harder for men to cry. I don't know how sound that is, medically speaking, but it could explain some things. Maybe taking T could physically alter the tear ducts on some people and that's why they have a harder time crying?

I used to cry a lot when I was a kid. If someone looked at me like they were angry, Id start crying, or if I was really frustrated with something. As I've gotten older, I don't cry as much, but it's been a bad year. I spent a week curled up in the fetal position last spring crying because I needed a root canal and couldn't afford it, one of the only times I've ever cried from physical pain.

Quote from: JasonRX on August 18, 2012, 11:45:29 AM
I was never one to cry much even before HRT. I was never one to cry from physical pain or because something was "sad" per se.
I only cry when I can't deal with built up stress any longer and that's pretty much how it's always been.

SO TRUE

Quote from: Andy8715 on August 19, 2012, 04:38:54 PM
And you are saying this is why we can't cry after T?  I don't buy it.

Fair enough. It's a difficult question to definitively answer and we have differing opinions. But the alternative seems just as ridiculous to me--that men are inherently and biologically less able to express emotion than women. If people really do believe that, and if we all agree that we are working toward a world where men and women have equal opportunity in all aspects of our lives, then I'd like to see all the people who believe that to put their money where their mouth is, so to speak. I'd like to see them working extra hard with young boys, whom they see as handicapped in a certain manner, and perhaps teach them to express their emotions more openly. Provide some extra encouragement to young boys to express themselves and, more importantly, try extra hard not to shame them when they cry. I don't tend to see that though. I see people using "it's in our nature as men or women" as an excuse to just give up and allow these societal gender norms to be encouraged and perpetuated. We live in a world where men are in a mode of constantly having to prove their worth to the world and part of that is putting up a strong front.

Quote from: dalebert on August 20, 2012, 09:45:14 AM
We live in a world where men are in a mode of constantly having to prove their worth to the world and part of that is putting up a strong front.

And btw, I think that pressure is exponentially higher on trans men and it's particularly unfair.

Okay, as a biological male, I can easily say that anyone who thinks that biological men are inherently incapable of crying are wrong. I can cry; I do it a lot. I frankly think it takes more strength to cry than it takes not to. Anyone who is afraid to cry because others will think of them as a wimp is a coward.

Just my $0.02...

Quote from: DianaP on August 20, 2012, 10:46:30 AMAnyone who is afraid to cry because others will think of them as a wimp is a coward.

I guess I'm fairly forgiving about that because our culture is so thoroughly saturated and the indoctrination into that mindset begins so early. I do hope we can encourage others to continue working to change that culture though.

Quote from: dalebert on August 20, 2012, 10:03:00 AM
And btw, I think that pressure is exponentially higher on trans men and it's particularly unfair.

To be honest, I feel very little pressure, but crying has hardly ever been an outlet for me.
Then again, it's a stretch to say I ever was truly socialized as "female", so that also could have something to do with it, but only possibly.

I don't think this has anything to do with "can" or "can't". I do believe it is hormones, but I think it's just that it has to do with the changes in our minds. Of course it can be enhanced by society or culture in some cases, but in general hormones change our minds. They change how we mentally filter things. Men and women are in fact very different in many ways and unfortunately are biologically not equal. That isn't to say we can't change the world so things are equal, but that biology cannot be.

Social upbringing can change what is inherent in us, but that doesn't mean it's the sole cause.

You are equating expressing emotion with crying.  I can express emotion and do so often but I cannot cry.  I can tear up, but I've only cried a handful of times since starting T.

Quote from: Wolf Man on August 20, 2012, 03:12:12 PM
I don't think this has anything to do with "can" or "can't". I do believe it is hormones, but I think it's just that it has to do with the changes in our minds. Of course it can be enhanced by society or culture in some cases, but in general hormones change our minds. They change how we mentally filter things. Men and women are in fact very different in many ways and unfortunately are biologically not equal. That isn't to say we can't change the world so things are equal, but that biology cannot be.

Social upbringing can change what is inherent in us, but that doesn't mean it's the sole cause.

Its interesting that you say that hormones change our minds. Are you referring to our emotional state (I feel better because I am taking steps to be seen as I want) or it alters our brain patterns? I haven't noticed any real differences in the way my mind works at all, expect for the fact that I am not nearly as depressed - but I always contributed that to the placebo effect. There's no way my shots work in five minutes like I have convinced myself they have.

Quote from: DianaP on August 20, 2012, 10:46:30 AM
I frankly think it takes more strength to cry than it takes not to. Anyone who is afraid to cry because others will think of them as a wimp is a coward.

I don't think its fear or cowardice that stops men from crying. My father was actively beat for doing it where anyone could see. I think, like dalebert suggested, its so ingrained in western culture that its hard to get away from.

Quote from: dalebert on August 20, 2012, 09:45:14 AM
Fair enough. It's a difficult question to definitively answer and we have differing opinions. But the alternative seems just as ridiculous to me--that men are inherently and biologically less able to express emotion than women. If people really do believe that, and if we all agree that we are working toward a world where men and women have equal opportunity in all aspects of our lives, then I'd like to see all the people who believe that to put their money where their mouth is, so to speak. I'd like to see them working extra hard with young boys, whom they see as handicapped in a certain manner, and perhaps teach them to express their emotions more openly. Provide some extra encouragement to young boys to express themselves and, more importantly, try extra hard not to shame them when they cry. I don't tend to see that though. I see people using "it's in our nature as men or women" as an excuse to just give up and allow these societal gender norms to be encouraged and perpetuated. We live in a world where men are in a mode of constantly having to prove their worth to the world and part of that is putting up a strong front.

We are not to a point where we can say that gender norms don't matter, and I don't think anyone can claim that we are at a point where gender norms can be ignored. Its a sad fact, but a fact none the less. Society and culture affect all of us whether we want to admit it or not. If it didn't, there wouldn't be 'taboo' things - people could do whatever. But, societal pressure exists, and for young boys, society tells them not to cry. If someone wants to claim that males have a biological difference that makes it so they can't cry, I'd like them to show me how its possible that little boys can bawl their eyes out just like any little girl. They stop later because society tells them its a "girly" thing, they are being pansies, or for some reason that any shred of being less than a he-man is a disgrace.

Quote from: dalebert on August 20, 2012, 10:03:00 AM
And btw, I think that pressure is exponentially higher on trans men and it's particularly unfair.

I haven't lived in an area where the LGBT population was high in any regards, so I can't say that its harder on trans men, though from what I read in a lot of queer news sources seems to tell me that the partner and I would want to stay away from some areas. Its hard enough to be gay - I certainly don't want to complicate matters for him just because I'm trans.

I think, removing trans from the equation - its harder for men who are perceived as being feminine in any regard. The difference with say you and I is that I have no idea how to navigate the social waters. I would be less likely to pick up on social shaming in some situations. If I knew that I would probably try to overcompensate. You're had to navigate the waters for far longer so its a situation where you have to constantly be under that pressure. After a while I imagine it must take its toll. This (obviously) isn't the only difference of course, so forgive my oversimplification - my coffee hasn't worked its way into my brain yet.

Quote from: Ayden on August 20, 2012, 07:47:44 PM

I don't think its fear or cowardice that stops men from crying. My father was actively beat for doing it where anyone could see. I think, like dalebert suggested, its so ingrained in western culture that its hard to get away from.

We are not to a point where we can say that gender norms don't matter, and I don't think anyone can claim that we are at a point where gender norms can be ignored. Its a sad fact, but a fact none the less. Society and culture affect all of us whether we want to admit it or not. If it didn't, there wouldn't be 'taboo' things - people could do whatever. But, societal pressure exists, and for young boys, society tells them not to cry. If someone wants to claim that males have a biological difference that makes it so they can't cry, I'd like them to show me how its possible that little boys can bawl their eyes out just like any little girl. They stop later because society tells them its a "girly" thing, they are being pansies, or for some reason that any shred of being less than a he-man is a disgrace.

Well, he was probably afraid of getting beaten, which is understandable. I actually can't believe anyone would beat their child for crying, though. Where exactly is your dad from?

PS--> I completely agree. Societal pressures do exist. I just choose to ignore about 85% of them.

What I meant was that trans men are concerned to varying degrees with passing and how they act is a big part of that. That's where the extra pressure comes from. When society is obsessed with sticking a binary label on people and when society has very strict notions of what the appropriate behavior is for those gender roles, there is extra pressure on a person who is trying to express and be perceived as a particular gender to conform to gender expectations. Of course, how well one passes can alleviate a lot of that. It seems like I hear from a lot of guys that they feel a lot more comfortable about their traditionally feminine traits once they are passing really consistently.

And btw, when I say "expressing emotion", for me that means crying as well. Crying is a particularly important one, IMO. So let me rephrase. If anyone feels boys & men don't cry as easily, then I hope you are providing the boys in your life with extra encouragement to cry and being extra careful not to make them feel ashamed when they do. Anyone who's ever taught their boys that boys don't cry doesn't seem to actually have much faith that it's inherent to our nature.

Oh and even if YOU don't teach them that, they'll very soon be getting an earful of that brainwashing in school. That first humiliating moment of "losing control" and getting shamed by a circle of other boys makes quite a powerful and lasting first impression.

I think it is a mixture of things. How emotional a person you are to begin with, how you were raised and hormones.

I do think the hormones play a part, my emotions were all over the place pre T. They could switch from one extreme to the other very easily. I would say I was far more emotionally sensitive, that's not to say I cried often because I didn't I just felt thing s a lot more. I am far more neutral in my emotions now, it takes a lot more to make me feel the more extreme sides of both happiness and sadness. I was very rarely just 'ok' before T now I am very rarely anything other then 'ok' lol.

In terms of growing up I was encouraged not to cry at least not from physical pain. I felt social pressure from the age of around eight to toughen up. I distinctly remember thinking I had to stop crying and a little later that I had to try to show as little emotional as possible when something hurt.

I'm afraid to say that on the very few occasions I have cried infront of people, I have regretted it deeply and felt ashamed afterwards. I'm not really sure where that has come from, I have never been told off by any family member for crying. Perhaps it is because I at that point had never seen any men in my family cry.

I also feel a pressure to be strong for those around me. I am I think it's fair to say, my mums rock. The one time I have seen my dad cry was at my parents divorce, I was 12 years old at the time. It was the first time I had ever lived without my mum and I was hurting a lot but I felt like I could not cry infront of my dad because I needed to be there for him. I felt the same with my mum.

I have not cried since starting T because I haven't felt the need. If I did I would only be comfortable crying alone.

Females produce more of a hormone, I forget what it's called, that is involved with with formation of tears. Male tear ducts also can hold more tears than a female.

I'm assuming T will cause you to produces less of whatever the hormone is. I don't know if it can alter the shape of your tear ducts.

Quote from: dalebert on August 20, 2012, 08:35:12 PM
What I meant was that trans men are concerned to varying degrees with passing and how they act is a big part of that. That's where the extra pressure comes from. When society is obsessed with sticking a binary label on people and when society has very strict notions of what the appropriate behavior is for those gender roles, there is extra pressure on a person who is trying to express and be perceived as a particular gender to conform to gender expectations. Of course, how well one passes can alleviate a lot of that. It seems like I hear from a lot of guys that they feel a lot more comfortable about their traditionally feminine traits once they are passing really consistently.

And btw, when I say "expressing emotion", for me that means crying as well. Crying is a particularly important one, IMO. So let me rephrase. If anyone feels boys & men don't cry as easily, then I hope you are providing the boys in your life with extra encouragement to cry and being extra careful not to make them feel ashamed when they do. Anyone who's ever taught their boys that boys don't cry doesn't seem to actually have much faith that it's inherent to our nature.

Oh and even if YOU don't teach them that, they'll very soon be getting an earful of that brainwashing in school. That first humiliating moment of "losing control" and getting shamed by a circle of other boys makes quite a powerful and lasting first impression.

I totally agree with you, and so does my partner. He was fortunate in his upbringing, but the "boys don't cry" thing really damaging to young boys.

Quote from: DianaP on August 20, 2012, 08:07:29 PM
Well, he was probably afraid of getting beaten, which is understandable. I actually can't believe anyone would beat their child for crying, though. Where exactly is your dad from?

PS--> I completely agree. Societal pressures do exist. I just choose to ignore about 85% of them.

He was terrified of being hit - the sad thing is started when he was about 5 too, and his older sister was allowed to cry. I generally don't speak ill of my own family since everyone has their faults, but his mother is a b**** and I hate how badly she messed him up. My whole family is originally from the south - western Kentucky. Coal mining country and the land of tiny, racist, sexist small towns. That same woman still messes with his head and tells him its his duty to take care of her in her old age and heaven forbid he shows any weakness. When my grandfather (who wasn't a part of my dad's life until he was 38) ended up in the hospital and nearly died from a car accident his mother had the nerve to tell him to "man up" and "stop acting like a puss." because he was crying. His father was almost dead and they had finally started building a relationship and she had the nerve to say crap like that. I really, really dislike that woman.

I agree with Tom on this (in fact, we have discussed it). I really do think that hormones do play a role. I am generally not ashamed to cry, and have had some cries since starting hormones, but it is a very different experience. Only 4 months in, I already experience my emotions differently on a  purely physical level, and sometimes that translates into not being able to cry or not being able to cry in the same way. I really don't think that over 4 months my psyche could change enough to alter my feelings that much - I think it might be a part, but in my case, it is difficult to deny the possibility of a biological component.

Jesse7 is helping my point. Yes, society and culture infulences crying. Yes, little boys cry. Again you are going to the point of men having the inability to cry when I'm saying it's just biologically different. Boys will change with testosterone, so they are not men. After all that crying beyond tearing up becomes less frequent and crying or sobbing in general become something that is encouraged to be repressed by society. I also think with the mind changing is that what triggers you to cry becomes different.

Quote from: Wolf Man on August 21, 2012, 02:09:00 AM
Jesse7 is helping my point. Yes, society and culture infulences crying. Yes, little boys cry. Again you are going to the point of men having the inability to cry when I'm saying it's just biologically different. Boys will change with testosterone, so they are not men. After all that crying beyond tearing up becomes less frequent and crying or sobbing in general become something that is encouraged to be repressed by society. I also think with the mind changing is that what triggers you to cry becomes different.

Yep, men and women are not the same. It's well known estrogen makes you more emotional. People seem to forget humans are animals, in nature things are't equal or even fair. A lot of societies gender roles are backed by science. There are chemicals in tears that lower testosterone. Obviously it's beneficial for the species to have men cry less. A flock of crows recently killed off a weak crow in my yard. Animals have an instinct to reject the weak. This instinct isn't lost in humans. Children cry about the same. Once puberty kicks in the changes occur and adults aren't supposed to cry like children, especially men.

I imagine with a lot of things that people say come along with T (increased aggression, loss of crying, changes in thinking, loss of focus, etc.) there can't be a blanket yes or no. Maybe its chemical, maybe its individual, maybe its mind over matter. Maybe I haven't had any of those changes because I didn't think I would. My therapist said I would, but my actual doctor gave me a list of completely different side effects and I chose to believe her over a therapist with no medical training so maybe that had an affect. BUt I still don't by biology being the reason. Male actors can cry. Its a learned behavior, in my opinion. I think its probably an agree to disagree thing. But the discussion of men displaying emotion is still a good one to think about even if we disagree on the side effects of being on testosterone. Men are supposed to be "strong", whatever the cultural definition of that is, and its sad that we teach men and women to behave so differently and then claim that its an equal world.

It's not an equal world. With the teachings to be so different it cannot come to such a point and biologically it is impossible.

To say that male and female, gender aside, can be equal can never be true. To say that we can change our societal and/or cultural views to bring them onto an equal playing field concerning the binary genders is possible, but again not something we've even really come close to, though we have come a long way. It's just how we know so much about the earth now and we've drilled so far, but it's merely the surface of it all.

Quote from: Wolf Man on August 22, 2012, 01:15:54 AM
It's not an equal world. With the teachings to be so different it cannot come to such a point and biologically it is impossible.

To say that male and female, gender aside, can be equal can never be true. To say that we can change our societal and/or cultural views to bring them onto an equal playing field concerning the binary genders is possible, but again not something we've even really come close to, though we have come a long way. It's just how we know so much about the earth now and we've drilled so far, but it's merely the surface of it all.

That was why I said claim it to be true. No, women and men are not completely even on the playing ground. Women naturally have stronger hips and legs while men naturally have stronger upper bodies. (or insert any physical difference you want) Biology is what it is and that will never change, no matter how much many may wish it. I wasn't suggesting that at all. Men may have larger tear ducts but that doesn't mean they don't cry or that they cry less because of this sole difference.

Take body building - through body/strength training women can absolutely be as strong as a man, because they trained to get there. They might not be as strong as some of their male body building counterparts because yes, testosterone does aid in strength and muscle building, but they could most likely take any normal guy in a fight. Its the same with crying. If you teach young boys that its okay to express emotion that way, they will *learn* how to cry rather than suppress it and thus be able to. Older men like my father have a harder time crying because they never learned. They learned to suppress it.

HOWEVER: I will also add that some people just cry more than others, period. One of my brothers cries more than anyone else in the family. Its just a part of his personality regardless of his sex. Some men cry more than women, just like some people cry more than others. I've met women who never cried and others who cried at the drop of a hat. My mother bawls all the time and her sister hasn't cried in years except when she was in pain. All I am saying is that you can't say "T makes it so you can't cry." Its not a fact for everyone on it. Just like not everyone is more prone to punching their fists through walls and being crazy horny all the time because they take T.

But, that's my two cents and my opinion. Like I said, its going to be an agree to disagree thing, I think. Apologies to Dalebert - I certainly don't want to turn your thread into an argument. Thanks for sharing the video and giving me and the husband a very interesting topic for discussion.