Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I stumbled on these 2 videos on Youtube, what are your honest opinions? Do you think its better not to say so that we feel more secure and treated better? If we're passable and we don't say, is NOT telling you're trans equal to tricking/deceiving? I don't think so. What do you think?

Why Transsexuals "Trick" Men. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cub9MqkvNiI#)

TRICKING STRAIGHT MEN (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFTof__bNR0#)

Without looking at the video (I will look at it after I post), I'll say I ALWAYS tell guys before I give them my phone number. That's my rule. If I meet him at the bar I wont say a word until he asks for my number, and if he's not in ear shot of his friends I'll tell him. If he is I'll say something like "I'll give it to you later".

Some men have egos, and they violently protect them. God forbid you get around some rough guy that finds out, and starts questioning his sexuality. I'm not in the mood to get the hell beat out of me (or die) any time soon.

Then again I'm pre op... maybe when I'm post op I'll tell him later, idk.

If you are pre-op, I will only say remember Gwen Araujo.

I'm pre-op, have 2 adult kids who call me dad, and am pretty much out of the closet. I'd disclose at the outset.

Always tell up front. Too many girls get hurt or even killed by doing it the other way.

I watched the entire first video and I can definitely see the point of view and where she's coming from. It's a ->-bleeped-<-ty situation and she outlines a big chunk of why I want to get SRS (not the whole reason however). I'm sick of guys going from "So what do you do in school?", to either "YOU SHOULD'VE TOLD ME THAT SOONER!!" or showing me some trans porn. But I always have to think of my own safety and I don't want to risk it.

The second video I didn't even bother... the first couple of minutes just made me roll my eyes and I closed it out.

To answer the question.  That would depend on the person.

Under no circumstances should anyone try to "trick" men.  That will only get one beaten up, or worse killed.

Not only can you get hurt, but it gives all of us a bad reputation and will only fuel those who would discriminate against us.

We are our chosen gender and as such how can we be tricking anyone.  To trick or deceiving anyone only will harm one.  Those who wish to trick men are not being true to themselves.

Each person needs to make the choice who to tell.  But never deceive anyone.

 I wouldn't go out with guys pre-op. If one is really persistent, then I will disclose, and as a result he will more than likely drop the issue.

... But, in case he doesn't, I have unrelated hoops for him to jump through. If a guy actually gets through them all, then it'll be like winning the lottery. However, I made them with the intention of having near-impossible standards just for the sake of keeping single. I don't require good looks so much as a good heart, so it's less difficult than one may think, but I'd say finding my kind of guy would be a rarity indeed.

After the op, I'd probably still tell, because I don't want to spend the rest of my life with someone I don't fully trust. If I feared that he would turn against me if he found out, then I would probably drop him. It's not good for the soul to be paranoid forever.

I'm in no hurry to find a man, so I can be as careful as I want in selection. If I stay single forever, then so be it... It beats the alternative.

The second one? What a strange story??

Looks like she transitioned to please man and find a straight guy?

I watched both videos and they were too long.  People need an outline and those videos need to be edited down.  Also, especially the second video was basically an angry rant.  They were both angry rants but the second one expressed that anger more directly.

I can't say I disagree with either video, at least not in essence.

I have felt the exact same way, except to approach straight men (second video) with the intention of revenge demonstrates how the person seeking the vengeance is only really hurting herself.  The enemy is in her head and she has become what the enemy has accused her of being.

Here is an example of the steps I recognized in my own transition

Admit to yourself that transition is necessary and take responsibility. (Assuming it is necessary for you.) Overcome your fears and begin taking the following steps.

(1.) Believe in yourself, if you don't no one else will.
(2.) Therapy/Support - (Assuming you feel it is necessary.)
(3.) Clothing.
(4.) Makeup
(5.) Hair
(6.) Voice
(7.) Hormones
(8.) Surgery
(9.) Honor step one, don't say things a woman would never say about herself.  This step is not conditional, it doesn't depend on whether or not people know you transitioned. Don't admit to being anything except for what you know in your heart that you are.  Your relationship with yourself is the most important relationship you will ever have and all of your other relationships will depend upon it.  Never betray yourself.  If you are willing to betray yourself who wouldn't you be willing to betray?  No matter what happens if you honor step (9.) at the end of the day you will have your dignity and you will be able to live with yourself.

Step 9 isn't always easy.  I texted a guy tonight who told me to call him if I ever wanted to go out to dinner with him.  It wasn't an easy decision and I thought about it for four months before texting him.  As far as I know he doesn't know I transitioned.  I really doubt he does.  The problem is I live in a place where some people know or have heard that I transitioned.  My own personal rule about disclosure was that if some people know I transitioned I have to talk to the guy about it before things get hot and heavy.  But I have changed my mind, I think I was really just being cowardly.  I think I need to focus on never betraying myself because I need to honor myself.

I realize this may sound extreme to some people.  I know that even after I had SRS I believed I would always be trans and I would always have to tell people I transitioned.  The problem is if we can't get over the fact that we transitioned how can we ever expect anyone else to get over it?  I am tired of making excuses for something I overcame.  And I would rather spend the rest of my life alone than try to convince someone that I am a female.  No thanks.  If I betray myself it will be because my fears overcame me, my guilt and my inability to believe in myself.  It will be because GID is still destroying my life.

So...  I guess what I am saying is that I mostly agree with the videos.  I would have presented it differently in less time.  Despite my trademark forever posts.

And if you are comfortable telling people you are trans then continue to do that.  It's easier and stress free but you may want to get a cat or a dog to keep you company during the lonely times assuming you don't have a trans partner or one who is sticking through transition with you.  We all have our own relatively unique situations and needs.  My example is just that, an example.

If I should ever get involved in a serious relationship I will give full discloser, until then, I'll let the 'Window Shoppers' think whatever suits their fancy

Up until now this hasn't been an issue really.  It is only since I have started to consider that I may well be Bisexual rather than Lesbian, that it is relevant.
Dykes don't usually have to consider mens opinions in this area.  :laugh:
Being pre-op, I would have to tell in order to be comfortable with myself, but post-op I would possibly be a little less "out", at least at first.
How soon  would really depend on the person.

Karen.

My wife's policy was basically the same as what would be done for any dating situation. For instence, let's say you had a mentally ill parent. Would you come right out and tell a virtual stranger you just met in some bar 10 minutes ago? Likely not.

You would most likely just carry on developing a friendship. After some time when you actually get to know this other person and have a better idea how he would handle that news, you decide wheter or not to tell him. My wife lived pre-op in NYC for well over 10 years and passed perfectly. She dated. Some guys after a while she told. Other guys she knew would never handle it. There were also plenty of guys sheinstantly felt would never handle it that she'd flirt some with perhaps and say good-bye.

Just as with passing, what is inside your panties does not count. Unless you plan on having sex with a stranger, what need is there to declare your "status" right away? Just as in the case of declaring you have a mentally ill mom if they aren't comming home with you to meet her.

Can't ACTUALLY see this to be my issue, too old and no ass...

Old females like me are close to invisible - just how it is.

If you hot and still young, well THAN it's like to play with fire. Sometimes it helps to be unattractive, come to think of it.

In any case again it's an age thing - it will/would take quite some time before things get physical (is what I think) and THAT would create time to figure out WHAT to do. "To be or not to be..." TS

If the man I'd sense to be a violent bastard, I'd drop him long before it ever became an issue. If you go for quickies / one night stands / gonna have it where ever --- THEN not even as TS, but also as CIS you are exposing yourself beyond what I think to be reasonable.

Axélle
PS: Don't like either of those videos, both are too self-consciously da-di-da-di-da --- giving me a sense of the unreal, make me jealous of those knockers, the lot. I do not LIKE to deal with unreal people, so I gave them a pretty fast miss. Go call me a snob :)

Quote from: TessaM on August 25, 2012, 07:53:54 AM

2.If your going to be in a serious relationship, DO TELL. The man (woman) should love you for who you truly are, and shouldnt have to be "lied" to. It doesnt make you any less of a woman, but in my opinion, disclosing your status as trans is obligatory for a man to "fully" love you. He should know your past and life history, no?

I have posted too much in the last 30 hours or so but I promise this will be the last one for a while O_o ...

Yes, I totally agree.  The man (woman) should love you for who you truly are.

That said who are you, truly?  Most trans women say that they have always been female and often times the farther a trans woman gets through/past transition the more she begins to realize (make real) the fact that she has always been female.

As women who transition we need an opportunity to grow as women.  We were denied that at birth and we have to struggle just to have that opportunity to grow - and sometimes fate is unkind and no matter how much we work we never really succeed or get to that point.  Those of us who are fortunate enough to be received as female after transition will begin to grow as females because growing as a female requires authentic socialization, honest, gut-level instinctual interactions.

So, do we nip that in the bud by confessing to our loved one what we "truly are"?  What are we, "truly"?  In some cases we are what we have allowed ourselves to be.  In other cases we allow our fears and a misplaced sense of obligation to dictate what we 'are'.

There is no right answer.

Or is there?

There is an over-used quote that sounds a bit narcissistic when applied to typical people, "To thine own self be true."  We aren't typical people.  You have to save yourself before you can save anyone else.  For us, "To thine own self be true" takes on special meaning.  There is no right or wrong, feel free and even encouraged to do as you choose in these matters.  But consider this...  If we really have an obligation to allow someone else to love us for who we are then we should at least allow that individual to experience 'us' for who we truly are before we throw the mind-phuck on them by telling them (in Cis reality) that we are really men who have attempted to become women.  And in Cis reality we always fail to accomplish that goal and we are always seen as perpetually wanting to be female.

So my advice is allow someone to get to know you for who you "truly are" before you hit them with a mind-phuck that only trans people can even begin to understand on any relevant level.  No Cis person will ever truly understand our situation because at best their understanding will be theory or "good-faith" but they will always have to 'believe' as in a verb, they will constantly have to work to believe because they can never really understand what they can never feel for themselves.

Sorry to get all heavy. 

Like Kate Grimaldi used to say, "Telling isn't selling."  That may not mean very much to many people but experience is the greatest teacher of all.  Unfortunately some of us will never have the experiences necessary to understand certain things.  In the mean time I am a lonely explorer trying to find her way through the world, looking for love but not very hard.

What, you mean with a guy romantically?
I'd say if you're post op you don't need to tell anyone anything about your past.
If you're pre-op, then yeah your partners should probably know. But no one else needs to.

I would say to tell any guy you either plan on being in a serious relationship with or having sex with. If they find out after the fact, you might put yourself in danger. Also, if you get into a serious relationship, hold off on the physical part until he//she has gotten to know you better. It might make it more likely that the person will accept you for who you are when he//she realizes that he//she likes you enough to look past your history.

PS--> If the person you're with wants kids, even if you're post-op, you may have to tell the person you can't have children. You can continue to lie and say you had a hysterectomy or just make it easier and come out from the beginning. I'd personally rather be with someone who can accept me than one who needs to be deceived to want to stay with me.

I think it all comes down to the inability of people to really understand, TO KNOW, what we have been going through. If you have the brain of a woman, the body of a woman and the life of a woman, of what relevance is the fact that you were born a male? Once you leave all that behind, and truth is manifested the way they 'understand' it (your image), of what use is saying that? It's ridiculous.

I really didn't care much for either video... And the second one was very strange. I think she may have some issues besides guys. Anywho....

I never, ever tell a guy about my past until the third date. If he makes it that far. This gives me a chance to feel and figure him out. If I get any sense of homo-phobic or trans-phobic tendencies, thoughts, or beliefs... He's gone.

I think by disclosing up-front before even getting to know someone is doing a huge disservice to yourself. First, you will mainly be attracting ->-bleeped-<-s, weirdos, and creepers... Not the sort of people I think most of us want to find. Second, cis-gendered females do not start spilling every lurid detail of their past and or any medical/anatomical issue or deformity on the first date. It just doesn't work that way. Trust me. I've dated quite a few ;). If a woman had a hysterectomy and can longer conceive children, you surely won't read about it in her match.com profile nor will she mention it you on the first date. It just doesn't work that way.

Basically, I've never seen the urgent need to go telling every person you go out with your life story, unless you absolutely feel the need to. I never even consider telling guys my "past" until the third date and/or way before any intimacy. This gives me a chance to feel them out and see if he is worth my time and effort. I date fairly frequently and this is what has worked best for me. Do what you feel you are comfortable with, but try not to limit and label yourself from the start.

We as TG people face enough obstacles and challenges in life, why create more of your own making?

I wonder if there are any surveys asking people if they'd actually want to be told.

Quote from: Sephirah on August 25, 2012, 12:51:43 PM
I wonder if there are any surveys asking people if they'd actually want to be told.

Now this is a great question.  ;D

In my experience most guys could care less after I have told them. Did some never want to see me again? Sure. But the majority didn't care. Most guys are interested in the overall package, just not a small part of it.

Well, I still believe that you have to tell those who you are with, but I'm not saying you should just say "I'm trans" the instant someone walks over to talk to you. I'd say JennX has a good method. So long as you come out before any intimacy sets in, you should be good. Make sure you tell the person you're with early and after they've gotten to know you, though, or you'd probably be wasting your time if things go sour.

Quote from: JennX on August 25, 2012, 12:54:56 PM
Now this is a great question.  ;D

In my experience most guys could care less after I have told them. Did some never want to see me again? Sure. But the majority didn't care. Most guys are interested in the overall package, just not a small part of it.

I'm non-op, so I am a bit worried about my chances of finding an accepting person. Are you post-op, pre-op, or non-op? (If you don't mind divulging, of course.)

as lots of men get murderous hate on finding the woman they fancied used to be a man it might be really good to make sure of his attitude before getting serious or telling him.

Quote from: DianaP on August 25, 2012, 01:00:30 PM
Well, I still believe that you have to tell those who you are with, but I'm not saying you should just say "I'm trans" the instant someone walks over to talk to you. I'd say JennX has a good method. So long as you come out before any intimacy sets in, you should be good. Make sure you tell the person you're with early and after they've gotten to know you, though, or you'd probably be wasting your time if things go sour.

I'm non-op, so I am a bit worried about my chances of finding an accepting person. Are you post-op, pre-op, or non-op? (If you don't mind divulging, of course.)

Thanks. I'm preop btw.  :)

Quote from: lilacwoman on August 25, 2012, 01:00:48 PM
as lots of men get murderous hate on finding the woman they fancied used to be a man it might be really good to make sure of his attitude before getting serious or telling him.

Which sucks for me... I love those tough guy types and those types are the least willing to "experiment"

I had FFS before SRS, at that time my undiagnosed bipolar was acting up, manic wise. I went on a very weird sexual trip, meeting men and women on craigslist and picking up women in bars. (Never met men in bars, even that was too crazy or I should say stupid.) I didn't tell the women, at least not on the first night, I just kept it under wraps) 

I put my pic on craigslist with very provocative, enticing and clever messages. One of my posts got nearly a thousand responses. I did not reveal that I was non-cisgendered in the ads. Nor would I reveal my past in the first couple emails. (I loved the power of toying with these guys.) I also put a BDSM video on youtube and got 100,000 views and guys by the hundreds wanting to be my sex slave.

But the bottom line is, as crazy as I was, I would never think of meeting any of these guys without disclosing first. Again, I was crazy but not stupid.

Post-op, I had another manic spells dating and ->-bleeped-<-ing a lot of guys and I never disclosed to one of them and never had any problems. Luckily, I got sober and got my bi-polar addressed before I got an STD. Or something worse.

Today, I am in a monogamous Lesbian relationship and never plan on dating another man.

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on August 25, 2012, 03:27:10 PM
I had FFS before SRS, at that time my undiagnosed bipolar was acting up, manic wise. I went on a very weird sexual trip, meeting men and women on craigslist and picking up women in bars. (Never met men in bars, even that was too crazy or I should say stupid.) I didn't tell the women, at least not on the first night, I just kept it under wraps) 

I put my pic on craigslist with very provocative, enticing and clever messages. One of my posts got nearly a thousand responses. I did not reveal that I was non-cisgendered in the ads. Nor would I reveal my past in the first couple emails. (I loved the power of toying with these guys.) I also put a BDSM video on youtube and got 100,000 views and guys by the hundreds wanting to be my sex slave.

But the bottom line is, as crazy as I was, I would never think of meeting any of these guys without disclosing first. Again, I was crazy but not stupid.

Post-op, I had another manic spells dating and ->-bleeped-<-ing a lot of guys and I never disclosed to one of them and never had any problems. Luckily, I got sober and got my bi-polar addressed before I got an STD. Or something worse.

Today, I am in a monogamous Lesbian relationship and never plan on dating another man.

That's kind of the X-rated version of what we are discussing here! :D

Quote from: Elena G on August 25, 2012, 04:33:23 PM
That's kind of the X-rated version of what we are discussing here! :D

PG13 actually, R at the worst.   :laugh: >:-)

Wow....If only a guy had given me his number ever! Even though I'm not so interested in them, it would at least have been a nice compliment. I would actually have liked just to have the opportunity to have think on this question at least once in my life.

I think it is pretty obvious what I am to all the guys I meet, that seems to do the disclosure job for me whether i want it or not.

Quote from: lilacwoman on August 25, 2012, 01:00:48 PM
as lots of men get murderous hate on finding the woman they fancied used to be a man it might be really good to make sure of his attitude before getting serious or telling him.

How many is lots?  I would like to see the statistics.  Knowledge is power.

I don't believe that men get murderous hate on finding out that the woman they fancied used to be a man, I mean I don't believe it's that simple.  There have been some well-publicized murders that everyone remembers but I'm not sure that quantifies as "lots".

I know for a fact that men who have been intimate with me who found out from others that I transitioned or heard rumors from others that I transitioned, men who asked me if the rumors were true, they never reacted with murderous hate but I never confessed to being a man either.

I suppose that if I had confessed to being a man then perhaps something bad might have happened to me.  People like to believe in people.  Some people like to believe in people they have never even seen.  If you tell people that you are a trickster who fooled them into a homosexual act then yes, you might experience murderous hate.  Having a penis and being with a guy who thought you had a vagina is tantamount to deception  in the minds of most Cis men.

Most of the women I know who transitioned will tell you that they have always been female.  In fact the process of transition allows them to 'real-ize' (make real) the fact that they have indeed always been female.  But someone who has sex with a guy and then confesses to not being a woman...  I believe that is where the risk is.  People want to believe in you.  But if you don't believe in you, no one will.

Quote from: Kadri on August 25, 2012, 06:37:21 PM


I think it is pretty obvious what I am to all the guys I meet, that seems to do the disclosure job for me whether i want it or not.

I worked at a job where all the women were spreading rumors that were passed on by a customer who had met me back when I was open about transition.  I came to believe that I couldn't pass as female.  Even now in situations like that it is hard to remember that I do pass because almost no one passes 100% of the time, not even women who were born completely female.

Also, voice is 98% of passing.

I want to again applaud Noey for her honesty. Yes, even natal females get misgendered too. Certainly, all my Lesbian friends (those who I have asked) have.   

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on August 25, 2012, 07:34:17 PM
I want to again applaud Noey for her honesty. Yes, even natal females get misgendered too. Certainly, all my Lesbian friends (those who I have asked) have.   

You know, I've heard that sometimes, but I can hardly believe it. Specially when voice plays such an important role in gendering.

But people aren't always talking when they are being gendered and not all women have female sounding voices.

Thanks Berkley, you make me blush.

Does my upper body look massive in that pic?  It kinda does huh?
<----------------------------

No. You look great.

Nah, it doesn't. But I still find it hard to believe. Maybe it's because I've got a pretty good ear, maybe it's because I haven't been in that situation that many times, but still, I find it really hard to see someone misgendering a GG unless she had a REALLY low voice or DEFINITELY masculine features (and I remember two girls in high school that had 'staches bigger than mine!). I'm usually surrounded by many types of girls in daily life (in school), and never I've seen someone that could be misgendered by someone sober. I don't know, maybe it's just me.

A woman I know has gotten misgendered on the phone a few times. The voice is a powerful indicator though. There have been times when I was pretty sure someone wasn't female, but then I hear them speak and I changed my mind.

At the job I mentioned where I used to work, where a customer who knew me when I was open about being trans came in and told all of my coworkers that I was really just a man pretending to be a woman...

There was this guy and he confronted me point blank and told me it was entirely obvious by the size of my chest, shoulders, hips, hands and feet that I was nothing more than a "->-bleeped-<-got" and my coworkers and the bar tender (a woman) just stood around and beamed like, "How you like them apples "->-bleeped-<-"?  I had a lot of experiences like that in the two years I worked at that place.  I only worked there because I didn't believe any other place would hire me.  After work when I got in my car for the long drive home I would fasten my seat belt and throw up because of all the stress.  I kept empty cups in my car for that express purpose.

It's hard not to believe what people say when people are gossiping and talking about you behind your back.  Reality becomes what you fear it is instead of what it is.  Sometimes reality needs to be replaced by taking yourself out of a situation and finding a new one where the rumors haven't circulated.

What I'm trying to say is that, for me, when you gender someone there has to be a sufficient amount of details to make you think they are male, or female. 99% of the time it's very easy for me to tell for sure who's of what gender (not counting non-binary peeps). I'm not bragging, it's just that I, for one, can't seem to find myself in said situation. I live in a big, multicultural, rather cosmopolitan city: next time I 'hit the streets' I'll probably try to see if I can have trouble doing that. Should be fun. :)

Quote from: Noey Noonesson on August 25, 2012, 08:26:13 PM
At the job I mentioned where I used to work, where a customer who knew me when I was open about being trans came in and told all of my coworkers that I was really just a man pretending to be a woman...

There was this guy and he confronted me point blank and told me it was entirely obvious by the size of my chest, shoulders, hips, hands and feet that I was nothing more than a "->-bleeped-<-got" and my coworkers and the bar tender (a woman) just stood around and beamed like, "How you like them apples "->-bleeped-<-"?  I had a lot of experiences like that in the two years I worked at that place.  I only worked there because I didn't believe any other place would hire me.  After work when I got in my car for the long drive home I would fasten my seat belt and throw up because of all the stress.  I kept empty cups in my car for that express purpose.

It's hard not to believe what people say when people are gossiping and talking about you behind your back.  Reality becomes what you fear it is instead of what it is.  Sometimes reality needs to be replaced by taking yourself out of a situation and finding a new one where the rumors haven't circulated.

I know it won't change anything, but I'm sorry that you had to go through that. I know what it feels like to be bullied like that. Only a select few know I'm trans, but I came out as being attracted to men to everyone, thinking that I would be accepted. In short, I was harassed and referred to as "->-bleeped-<-" by a few people. I know what you went through; I even got assaulted because of my sexuality. Fortunately, I know how to defend myself, so I came out unscathed. I understand that you want to keep your past a secret; I plan on doing the same thing upon transition, at least to people not significant to me. Correct me if I'm wrong, but based on your comments in this topic, I'd say you seem to be a bit jaded. Keep your chin up and remember that gossip is unproven hearsay, by definition. There are a few doody-heads out there, but I like to think people are basically good. Bottom line, don't stress over your worries that people are all going to be like those in your past. There are great people out there and you shouldn't be afraid to confide in some of them.

Quote from: Noey Noonesson on August 25, 2012, 08:26:13 PM
At the job I mentioned where I used to work, where a customer who knew me when I was open about being trans came in and told all of my coworkers that I was really just a man pretending to be a woman...

There was this guy and he confronted me point blank and told me it was entirely obvious by the size of my chest, shoulders, hips, hands and feet that I was nothing more than a "->-bleeped-<-got" and my coworkers and the bar tender (a woman) just stood around and beamed like, "How you like them apples "->-bleeped-<-"?  I had a lot of experiences like that in the two years I worked at that place.  I only worked there because I didn't believe any other place would hire me.  After work when I got in my car for the long drive home I would fasten my seat belt and throw up because of all the stress.  I kept empty cups in my car for that express purpose.

It's hard not to believe what people say when people are gossiping and talking about you behind your back.  Reality becomes what you fear it is instead of what it is.  Sometimes reality needs to be replaced by taking yourself out of a situation and finding a new one where the rumors haven't circulated.

I adore you, Noey. I've been reading your posts as they reveal a long life story of struggle, that which I probably wouldn't ever be able to face myself. But there's too that other side of the coin which inspires me to, at least, be as strong and successful as you've been, regardless of what you think you've accomplished in life.

Living in the US is something that bugs me, as it's such a polarized place it's scary. You can be in SF, when everyone will treat you nicely if you are LGBT (or some people, at the very least), and then you can be in the desert of middle America, when you can get treated pretty much like you and many others have been. Maybe I've been spoiled, even though I live in no heaven and still have to pass through many situations, yet. But I didn't mean to make it look like that, it was more around the idea that GGs, for me, seem much more difficult to be misgendered. And needless to say, you have lived in one of those places I would wipe out from the earth forever, full of worthless scumbags with their brains fried by this morally corrupt society. I can't deny the reality of what you have been going through, but I only hope to show you that what you have suffered, even if traumatic, is nothing worth of stressing about now that you're an assertive, intelligent and well-spoken adult woman.

Quote from: Noey Noonesson on August 25, 2012, 07:51:45 PM
But people aren't always talking when they are being gendered and not all women have female sounding voices.

Thanks Berkley, you make me blush.

Does my upper body look massive in that pic?  It kinda does huh?
<----------------------------

No, you look fine, probably better than me actually. Once I got mis-gendered from behind at school, "Sir, your backpack is open." I turned around and looked at her like she was absolutely nuts. She said sheepishly, "Oh I am sorry, ma'am." My voice is androgynous at best but a natural looking feminine face trumps everything.

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on August 25, 2012, 09:15:24 PM
No, you look fine, probably better than me actually. Once I got mis-gendered from behind at school, "Sir, your backpack is open." I turned around and looked at her like she was absolutely nuts. She said sheepishly, "Oh I am sorry, ma'am." My voice is androgynous at best but a natural looking feminine face trumps everything.

Well... not EVERYTHING. A completely male voice ruins that female face every time. I could demonstrate if we ever get together and I pull out my Barry White impression while checking out at a grocery store :D

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on August 25, 2012, 10:23:11 PM
Well... not EVERYTHING. A completely male voice ruins that female face every time. I could demonstrate if we ever get together and I pull out my Barry White impression while checking out at a grocery store :D

I have to agree. My voice is not that great but it has always been in the tenor/alto range.

hehe.  Alainaluvsu, you do your Barry White and I'll do my Darth Vader.   And we can both get throat spray afterwards.

Not to totally derail, but I find it really interesting to read the ladies take on this. I'll never be a point where I can pass post op. The results are not realistic enough and I won't have the money or energy for all four stages! No matter what I have heard FTM say, I have seen the results and in a "line up" my partner and I could certainly tell the difference. I don't think a man would appreciate my not disclosing. I always say disclose if you intend to date, but I wonder - if the surgeries for us were as great as what the ladies get, would I feel differently?

And to add - women get misgendered all the time. I was sir'd when I was at my most extreme. I've misgendered women when I was working before. Usually its just a auto-pilot thing.

I think you should tell the important people in your life. Don't tell anyone else. They have no need to know.

If someone will love you, they will love you for who you are.

I do not tell anyone unless a guy asks me out.

And when a guy asks me out, I think one of two things:

1. From my experiences with him, is he open with LGBT people? If he is, then I will tell him.

2. If I hardly know him, I will politely decline the date offer because I do not know his stance on LGBT

Quote from: Noey Noonesson on August 25, 2012, 07:51:45 PM
Does my upper body look massive in that pic?  It kinda does huh?
<----------------------------

Not at all. when i first saw the picture a few hours ago i got a bit jealous of how it looks, Noey. You guessed correctly by the way, it is my my voice that sucks. In the last few days I've noticed when I am talking to people that I tend to get nasty or bemused stares. I think I've been a bot lax with it recently, because I've been avoiding going out in general. I also have a nasty brow ridge that I one day would like to get shaved off, if possible.

I think I am with you on the question of disclosure, Noey, every time you address it i find myself nodding. If i can get away with not doing it in the future, I just won't do it. It's hard to meet people here who would be as cruel as those bar workers, but if I get the chance to work in a new job or new area, I'd rather that no-one knew

Coming in very late to this conversation and want to thank you all for your opinions. I'm still in my early stages, not even taking HRT yet because there isn't a doctor in my small town who knows about TG health issues, however I've started on facial laser, growing my hair etc. Early but exciting days. However I frequently get mis-gendered on the phone, despite presenting as male until I feel I can pass better.

I've come out to everyone I know who is important to me, and have been shocked at who continued to love and support me, and who walked away. I'm sure you've all been through that in your early stages as well, so my own 2 cents is when you think about telling or not telling, just think back to when you first came out - who surprised you, and who you always knew would be supportive. I think when we realise even close loved ones can abandon us it makes it really easy to realise that even if you think you know a bit more about your date that perhaps you just don't.

So is it really worth hiding your past? Even if your date seems to love you, you just can't know their reaction to your news until you tell them. I think I'd prefer to be honest and only have people in my life who really want to be in my life warts and all. It hurt like hell when close friends and family told me they don't understand my need to transition and want nothing to do with me, and I don't think I could take that kind of rejection from a person I'm dating.

But I do like the suggestion that disclosure happens around the 3rd date or before intimacy. I don't want to attract deviants, I want to attract real people, and then disclose so I know if they stay with me it's because they love me.

Quote from: Noey Noonesson on August 25, 2012, 07:51:45 PM
[clipped]

Does my upper body look massive in that pic?  It kinda does huh?
<----------------------------

That question I may best never ask, see for yourself :P
Good for you Noey. A 100% pass, no question.

Now, something tends to get muddled up in this thread (my impression) the pre-, non-, post-op situation that often in such threads is cause of a lot of controversy. A lot!

How on God's earth are you NOT going to tell if you NOT post-op ???

How, would you want NOT to attract "odd" males (such who will stay on)... if you are NOT post-op ???

Just those two items alone will make one big difference...
And if you say "not so" --- I'd say... dream on.

It was my contention, added to my GD, that if I respect a 'normal' male in getting into a relationship "I" had to be post-op.
I have too much respect of another person/man, not to present him with a 'truth' that might leave him baffled at best - and VERY angry and disappointed at worst.
Unless he's into the "odd" stuff, no need to spell it out, yes?

Food for thought?
Axélle

Quote from: Noey Noonesson on August 25, 2012, 07:51:45 PM

Does my upper body look massive in that pic?  It kinda does huh?
<----------------------------

Wearing very thin shoulderstraps like that make your upper body/shoulders appear bigger than necessary.

Better find yourself tops with wide/broad shoulderstraps.

Quote from: Dahlia on August 26, 2012, 06:18:54 AM
Wearing very thin shoulderstraps like that make your upper body/shoulders appear bigger than necessary.

Better find yourself tops with wide/broad shoulderstraps.

Actually quite wrong according to some other experts... believe it or not ;)

Look at some Olympic female swimmers in their gear... yes?

Axxx

QuoteMy voice is androgynous at best but a natural looking feminine face trumps everything.

This.

Quote from: guapa on August 26, 2012, 02:12:23 AM


So is it really worth hiding your past? Even if your date seems to love you, you just can't know their reaction to your news until you tell them. I think I'd prefer to be honest and only have people in my life who really want to be in my life warts and all. It hurt like hell when close friends and family told me they don't understand my need to transition and want nothing to do with me, and I don't think I could take that kind of rejection from a person I'm dating.

But I do like the suggestion that disclosure happens around the 3rd date or before intimacy. I don't want to attract deviants, I want to attract real people, and then disclose so I know if they stay with me it's because they love me.

I always tell the person who I made the decision to go out with my past. You cannot hide something as complex like that. If you did become serious with someone then you're going to make a mountain out of molehill. You'll have to have your friends and family lie for you, you lie to him, you can never take him to the hospital or doctor visits if you needed to go, etc etc.

And if you tell him on the third date or right before you get intimate, then ..well...let's put it this way: I never seen a fairy tale relationship develop from that standpoint....well...once. Like 1 out of 200.

If you don't tell him and then he finds out, he will feel like you were lying to him. Being trans isn't like throwing up on your kid sister as a child and too embarass to tell your new BF about it.

In an ideal world, if a guy likes you, he won't care about your gender past. But this isn't an ideal world...or even close to it. If you tell him right before sex, you could end up as a statistic for the National Day of Transgender Remembrance.

If you know the guy and really like him then tell him before the first date. If he's ok with it then you know he's a catch. If he says no, at least you found out now....rather than him freaking out before sex....or later down the road (if you're post op) when some cousin of yours tells him you used to be a guy....and then him freaking out.

For whom the following is relevant, people who pass, had SRS, etc.

I would question whether you are being "honest" and "Sharing who/what you really are," by confessing your trans history or whether you are limiting yourself and putting the stops on who you might otherwise be able to become.

Identifying with the process out of concern for the feelings of others is equal to what Don Miguel Ruiz spoke of in his book 'The Four Agreements'.  As children many of us are punished like animals, beaten.  As those of us grow into adulthood we learn to beat ourselves.  It is like putting a heavy chain around a baby elephant's leg, eventually all it takes is a fragile rope or the idea of a chain to keep the elephant from wandering off.

I believe that those who can often don't because of the conditioning they have experienced.  They learn to repress themselves for the sake of others.  But I would ask what good that actually does?  What good does limiting yourself to trans accomplish?  Is that "honesty"?  Should I limit my life out of respect for the collective ignorance?

How many times do you have to hear, "Oh no we are 'real' women but you can't trick someone you love into thinking you are a real woman."  Before you can begin to realize that someone is speaking out of both sides of her mouth?

Very well put, Noey.  We spent way to much time with that little chain around our ankles.

The problem is that most of us come with some sort of family, a work history, and a past that pops into life every once in a while. I can't tell you how many times I would have been put on the spot had I not told my hubby. Then there are the little white lies we must generate with friends. How do you answer all the questions. Do you have children (some of us do), when was your last period, that boy says he knows you from high school.

So, with that said. I find I tell no one anymore. Enough time has passed so that my friends don't ask the sorts of personal questions you have to deal with as an early twenty something. My sentiments are that I wanted to be female and not something or someone else. The unfortunate part about it is that if you don't confide in your closest companions, you could end up dead. It does happen.

We are all living on borrowed time ^_^ .  Every drive to work is a matter of taking your life in your own hands not to mention fast food.

I guess the point I would attempt to make is that it isn't necessarily about being "stealth".  As I have said before... if my life depended upon being "stealth" I would already be dead (many times over). 

Rather I would say it's about what you are willing to say about yourself.  I want to encourage people to ...

QuoteBe Impeccable With Your Word
 Speak with integrity. Say only what you mean. Avoid using the word to speak against yourself or to gossip about others. Use the power of the word in the direction of truth and love.
 The first agreement is the most important one and also the most difficult one to honor. It is very, very powerful.
 Through the word you express your creative power. It is through the word that you manifest everything. What you dream, what you feel, and what you really are.
 The word is a force; it is the power you have to express and communicate, to think, and thereby to create the events in your life. But like a sword with two edges, your word can create the most beautiful dream, or your word can destroy everything around you.
 The word is so powerful that one word can change a life or destroy the lives of millions of people. Hitler's word, based on fear-generated beliefs and agreements, will be remembered for centuries.
 During our domestication, our parents and siblings gave their opinions about us without even thinking. We believed these opinions and we lived in fear over these opinions, like not being good at swimming or writing.
 By hooking our attention, the word can enter our mind and change a whole belief for better or worse. For example: You may believe you are stupid. And you may have believed this for as long as you can remember. This belief may cause you to do a lot of things just to ensure that

http://www.frumi.com/images/uploads/thefouragreements.pdf (http://www.frumi.com/images/uploads/thefouragreements.pdf)

The thing is that other people are living in their own dreams and you have to speak in their dream language in order to exist in their world, unless maybe you are dating or married to a Toltec Warrior.

Ugg, I dunno, I guess I'm a product of my environment. But is it really that big a deal? I want to be like "holy crap, grow up, it's just a bloody medical condition" to all the folks who apparently freak out about it. Like, wow. Really pathetic.

I expect a partner to be able to handle it. I demand that they be at least that clever. My 75-year-old aunt who goes to church every week can see me as female. It's actually not that hard.

I want to disclose so I don't waste my time on some loser. So I don't emotionally invest in someone so dull that they get hung up on the fact that I was born with a penis. Oh what horror. :P Christ, I'm brilliant, creative, sexy and tough as all hell. They should be so lucky.

Actually, I want to disclose because I have all these crazy, amazing, beautiful memories and experiences related to my transition. Because the way I see my world now is on some level fundamentally shaped by the horror of my pre-transition existence. Because I want to be able to tell them why the tattoo on my back means so much to me. Because next time I'm at a show where the guy sings about uke-uke-lady-boy riding down a mountain on a tiger (don't ask), and the girl I'm with suggests tattoo-ing said image on her body, I don't want to have to avoid explaining my hysterical giggles. Because I want to be able to share ALL of me. And for better or worse, my history as a trans female IS a part of me.

I have no interest in any of "the collective ignorance." They can leave me well enough alone. And I have no interest in censoring myself to protect someone's fragile f**king ego either. Neither option is even mildly appealing. What's the point of being with someone that I wouldn't even be able to respect?

Is this a thing I just can't get because I'm queer? I have friends who are guys and they don't seem to suck that much. I think people need to date some cooler people. Some people who are like... decent human beings. That doesn't seem like a ton to ask.

Quote from: Noey Noonesson on August 26, 2012, 06:14:57 PM
For whom the following is relevant, people who pass, had SRS, etc.

I would question whether you are being "honest" and "Sharing who/what you really are," by confessing your trans history or whether you are limiting yourself and putting the stops on who you might otherwise be able to become.

Okay, I haven't had SRS and I'm not certain of the extent to which I pass (I seemed to "pass" more before I had my hair cut). So, maybe I shouldn't be trying to address this.

To me, I'm not limiting myself by admitting that I'm trans. To me, I'm completing myself. I don't see it as a chain, but has a thread that ties me to my children, other loved ones, and my past.

There was a person at the Trans Parents support group who actually got upset that I address myself as my children's father and as the ex-husband of my former spouse. He felt that I was adopting a heteronormative stereotype by identifying the way I do. Really? A woman who's a father and ex-husband? That seems queer, to me.

But the biological and historical facts are that I am their father, not their mother. I didn't carry them inside me. I didn't have two Caesarean sections (1 emergency, the other planned). I didn't nourish them with my body (in utero or through breastfeeding). I was a man, now I'm a woman. I'm completing myself.

At least, that's how I see it.

Sure, what works for me doesn't necessarily work for anyone else. For that matter, what works for me now might not necessarily work for me in the future.

Quote from: TessaM on August 27, 2012, 12:27:19 PM
Connie, I disagree with you to an extent. In my mind, I was in fact always a woman. I am finally taking the steps to show that to the world. If you see yourself as a "father" to your children and your ok with that, then thats fine! You cant exactly change your past right?...

This reminds me of Maupin's Tales of the City in which Mrs. Madrigal announces "I am not his mother, I am his father."

Being with a guy that doesn't know is one of the experiences I wish I'd have, but I haven't been single since long before SRS. I guess the closest I ever got was the guy I brought home who thought I had lied about being trans when he stuck his hand down my pants and found nothing since I was tucked.

If I was single again and met a guy I would probably keep my mouth shut and only tell if the relationship got serious.

Of all the guys that I was intimate with in my post-SRS manic romp, only one knew of my status and he thought of me as "trans" before I bedded him. Afterwards, he only thought of me as a woman. Moral: if you are post-op, there is no reason to tell. (Unless of course you get serious then maybe he should know)

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on August 27, 2012, 03:39:20 PM
Moral: if you are post-op, there is no reason to tell. (Unless of course you get serious then maybe he should know)

Unless, of course, your new partner meets you're adult children who call you Dad.

No one is going to stop you from living your life as you choose.

Actually, I'm curious as to what anyone would do if you were post-op and your SO wanted kids or if he happens to drive you to the hospital for a checkup. What would you tell him then?

I would say that (like many other women) I cannot have kids.

And suppose I don't want kids?  Am I allowed to not have them?

I'm not a man living as a pretend woman, it isn't a game of hide and seek.  I am a woman and I will give you a woman's answer.

Quote from: DianaP on August 27, 2012, 05:34:33 PM
Actually, I'm curious as to what anyone would do if you were post-op and your SO wanted kids or if he happens to drive you to the hospital for a checkup. What would you tell him then?

In that case, I would say. If it gets to that point, and depending on how he would treat things of this sort, I would just say it. Like if it was any other physical issue. It wouldn't really be about being trans, it'd be about parenting, family planning, that kind of stuff. You can't expect anyone to react a certain way, but I highly doubt it would turn sour, especially if you look for certain qualities in people, like tolerance, open mindedness and respect for different walks of life.

But then again, I also dream about flying cows and talking cheese, so whatever...

Quote from: Elena G on August 27, 2012, 06:19:31 PM


But then again, I also dream about flying cows and talking cheese, so whatever...

OMG, I thought I was the only one O_O ...

Quote from: Noey Noonesson on August 27, 2012, 05:42:14 PM
I would say that (like many other women) I cannot have kids.

And suppose I don't want kids?  Am I allowed to not have them?

I'm not a man living as a pretend woman, it isn't a game of hide and seek.  I am a woman and I will give you a woman's answer.

Oh, I totally agree with you. I don't want kids and we're allowed not to have them (the world is already full of people anyhow...). I was just asking for a good way to get around the situation because I will most likely not tell any new acquaintances and I want to have a good story prepped of why I can't have kids, so as to not raise suspicions.

Kate Grimaldi (when I asked this same question of her) said to tell him that you were born with a birth defect that you overcame but that you cannot have kids because of that birth defect.

I partially disagree with Kate.

I think that words have power.  Saying I am "defective" is not an option for me.  I don't consider myself "defective".  I would just say, "I can't have kids."  And if he asked why I would say something like when I was born those parts didn't develop.  Or something like that.

Or I might just say that there are already so many unwanted kids in the world, honey... let's adopt a child.

But the truth is that I feel like I am too old to have kids.  And I can't afford to have kids.  And I don't have a boyfriend let alone a husband.

Just tell them you can't have kids because you were struck by lightning in your uterus. That'll derail the conversation.

I simply told my parents-in-law I couldn't have kids when they asked if we planned to have kids. They didn't ask why but I would imagine a bf or potential husband might be interested in getting the details.

Quote from: MariaMx on August 27, 2012, 07:11:40 PM
Just tell them you can't have kids because you were struck by lightning in your uterus. That'll derail the conversation.

No joke, I am actually using this.

Quote from: DianaP on August 27, 2012, 07:13:53 PM
No joke, I am actually using this.

*chuckles*





...no, REALLY?

Quote from: Elena G on August 27, 2012, 07:33:30 PM
*chuckles*





...no, REALLY?

Seriously, yes. It's one of those obvious lies that's code for "I don't really feel like talking about it since it's none of your business."

Oh...  :-\

...ok.



Gosh, I wouldn't really like to go so far trying not to tell. I would like it to be something as normal as any other physical 'inconvenience'. Not seen the way it is seen, but more like the physical condition that we really know it is.

Like, if you are at a party five years from now:

Some T-Girl: 'I can't have kids, I was born with the wrong body'
Me: 'Oh, me too!'

Same girl: 'I have this new gloss...'
Me: 'Me too!!!'




...and so on.  ;D

Alright, well that works too. I still have plenty of time.

Quote from: Elena G on August 27, 2012, 07:56:11 PM
Gosh, I wouldn't really like to go so far trying not to tell. I would like it to be something as normal as any other physical 'inconvenience'. Not seen the way it is seen, but more like the physical condition that we really know it is.

Like, if you are at a party five years from now:

Some T-Girl: 'I can't have kids, I was born with the wrong body'
Me: 'Oh, me too!'

Same girl: 'I have this new gloss...'
Me: 'Me too!!!'




...and so on.  ;D

I have tried to imagine such a universe on many occasions but I don't think it is happening any time soon.

I am all up for lost causes and have an undying love for the underdogs...

and I know it can happen!






:icon_blahblah:

TessaM, why do you feel it is morally incorrect not to tell? Most other people don't seem to be morally obligated to disclose anything they don't want to, why should different rules apply to us? I don't like the thought that there's something so inherently wrong with me that I am obligated to inform potential partners of my medical history. It's not like I suffer from a deadly contagious disease or am a termite infested house up for sale.

TessaM, I'm not uniformly against telling. I am myself married to a guy that full well knows about my past as we met back when I was pre-op. Had we met later I might still have told, but not because I would have felt morally obligated to do so. My life would pretty much have to be turned upside down to keep an air tight lid on this thing and I'm not sure I'd be willing to make those sacrifices, so for practical purposes I might disclose if the relationship was getting serious. The thing I have a problem with is the notion that we are sort of violating our partners by not telling. It's almost as if I should feel unclean and tainted because of my past. I don't like that thought one bit. You draw the paralleled of not telling that one is missing a kidney, but that's not the same thing at all because no-one would think it be immoral or wrong not to tell.

Regarding stealth I wish I was a little bit more stealth than I am at the moment. I can't change that right now for several reasons but in time I intend to. Other than making the stupid mistake of telling a friend of mine earlier this summer I haven't told a single soul about my past in years now. Unfortunately that doesn't mean most people don't know. It's impossible to keep a lid on this thing because people just can't keep their mouths shut and the idea that I might not want everyone to know just don't seem to cross their minds.

Back when I transitioned I kind of scoffed at the idea of being stealth, but as time has gone by I've gotten pretty tired of being out. I'm coming up on a decade being full-time next year, and frankly I'd like some privacy now. I absolutely hate being introduced to people that I've never met before and already they know the whole story. I can tell by the look of fascination on their when I talk to them. They look at me as if I have a huge traffic cone orange hairdoo on my head and it seems they can barely hear what I'm saying. My cousin is getting married this month and I'm invited but I really don't want to go because I just know that the whole groom's side of the family will know about me and I'll have to go through this ordeal with each and every one of them. Being out and proud is great if that is your thing but not so great when one just wants to be left alone and treated like everyone else. I don't like being a curiosity.

Quote from: TessaM on August 27, 2012, 08:12:22 PM
Im completely on the opposite side of the spectrum on this one. I really think you should, dare I even say its moraly INcorrect to not do so? Things obviously should be serious otherwise why bother. Maybe its just me though, but me overcoming and going through everything in my life is most certainly worthy of sharing with the eventual love of my life. At least I think so...

I would think that you are expressing the popular opinion.  I used the feel the same way.

In fact..  I am about to date a guy who doesn't know about my past and I have been questioning myself a lot because it has stirred up old stuff.

The thing is most of us go through life believing that we are our ideas.  And the unfortunate truth is that most people succeed at going though life, being their ideas.  But life is a lot bigger than ideas, or at least it can be.

The first time I practiced Zazen meditation successfully I sat without thinking for several minutes and it suddenly dawned on me on an experiential level that without my ideas, I continued to exist.  And the truth was that my ideas about life and myself prevented me from experiencing life.

A woman is not an object.  A woman is not someone with a natal vagina.  A woman is not someone with certain chromosomes.  Being a woman is an experience.  But most of us will never allow ourselves to have that experience because we think we already know what being a woman is and we will never allow it to happen in our own lives.  That would make us typical, normal and average but it's no way to live once you have tasted freedom from self-repression.

Most people will defend their beliefs to the death, because they believe that they are their beliefs and without their beliefs they would cease to exist.  The reality closer to the truth is that their ideas and beliefs will prevent them from ever having a life, from ever experiencing and having what they claim they want and need.

To me a genuine transition is the closest thing to a true spiritual experience.  But we all need different things at different stages of our lives and certain things are much more relevant to us when they are a part of our lives.  Transition is no longer a part of my life so telling someone that I am trans doesn't speak to the truth of who I am but rather tends to speak against it.

Yes, I transitioned but I am over it and I have a history of having lived female.  I am content to live as a female now and it's what I transitioned for.  If I was transitioning I would be more likely to introduce myself as trans but now it's just a way for people to view me as something other than what I am.  Why gather trouble unto myself like that?  I have already suffered enough.  If I don't believe in myself no one else will.  I learned a long time ago that you can't speak out of both sides of your mouth and be taken seriously.

Perhaps things will change but I doubt it and until then I am living in shared reality, one where I am female.

I have yet to meet someone and express affection towards a male but I will most definitely tell them I'm trans. I have too much to lose because some guy decides to kill me because he "feels" like he is protecting his masculinity. I have too many people who love me and a daughter who thinks I'm a super hero that I'd give my life for.

This is one of those subjects that there isn't a right answer for. No way we could all agree on it. Good topic non the less.

"You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist." ~ Freidrich Nietzsche

If you feel it's best to tell someone, for whatever reasons: cool. If you feel it isn't, for whatever reasons: equally cool. People are individuals, with different lives, different perceptions, different thought processes. Free to make up their own minds and live with the consequences of their choices.

Trying to make up everyone else's mind and considering what everyone should do is largely an excersise in futility, although it makes for forum debate. Really, just do your thing and find happiness in the way you choose to live. The why's and why not's are up to each of you individually to determine as they relate to your own life and your own circumstances. There is no right or wrong answer, only the decisions you make and the way they affect your life.

Everyone has to find his or her own right answer.  Still I would softly caution against allowing the right answer to dictate your life.  Life isn't so much about answers and nothing is either right nor wrong but thinking that something is right or wrong tends to make it so (at least in our minds anyway).

If you believe you have the right answer and you live your life within the confines of that right answer and never over-step the boundaries that you have created for yourself then you will never know what could have been but perhaps the sense of safety is it's own reward?

"Don't step outside the box, you will surely be eaten!"

Most of us use our fears as rationalizations in order to avoid overstepping our self-imposed boundaries.  Paper tigers and smoke dragons.  We hear about someone who was attacked by a dragon and we wallpaper the inside of our little "reality box" or miniature world with what seems like the moral to our ideology of compression (that of shoe-horning life into neat little boxes).  A bright mural painted in blood-tones, depicting someone foolish being torn apart by a tiger!  And the moral of the story is ...  (Insert self-restricting ideology here) and marry it to the local headline (it doesn't matter if the facts line up or not) the sheer horror of it all is enough to warrant belief.

Trans woman plays a woman in real life and get's it.  The murderer blames the victim, or is that us?

And the truth is that what I am saying will never apply to most people or maybe it will but in subtler, less scary and more manageable ways.  I have no idea O_o ...

There is a definite dichotomy here between pre-op (or non-op) and post-op. Post-op, I think the consensus is that one might at least consider not telling. Pre-op or non-op: the consensus is it is a good idea to tell. Unless I missed something, to wit:

Quote from: TessaM on August 27, 2012, 08:12:22 PM
Hmm everyone here seems to be content with not telling your partner. Im completely on the opposite side of the spectrum on this one. I really think you should, dare I even say its moraly INcorrect to not do so? Things obviously should be serious otherwise why bother...

I thought the women pushing for not telling were not onoy post-ops but LONG TIME post-ops like Noey and I. When your passport and birth certificate says you are a female and you have a vagina and a totally female face and demeanor, why tell, at  least until it gets serious. And men are a dime a dozen, why would anyone get serious about any man until at least after several dates. 

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on August 27, 2012, 11:34:32 PM
There is a definite dichotomy here between pre-op (or non-op) and post-op. Post-op, I think the consensus is that one might at least consider not telling. Pre-op or non-op: the consensus is it is a good idea to tell.

Hold on a sec, I am going to rewrite my post fifty more times...

I mean yes, I totally agree.

Me too but I've gotten bored.

Sorry for the edits, Noey but I am in such a habit of editing everything I write, it is a hard habit to break.

I was referring to my edits  O_O  .

I didn't realize you suffered from a similar affliction.

I was referring to post #94 of this thread.

(my post)

Quote from: MariaMx on August 27, 2012, 08:43:48 PM
TessaM, why do you feel it is morally incorrect not to tell? Most other people don't seem to be morally obligated to disclose anything they don't want to, why should different rules apply to us? I don't like the thought that there's something so inherently wrong with me that I am obligated to inform potential partners of my medical history. It's not like I suffer from a deadly contagious disease or am a termite infested house up for sale.

because there is a huge sociological difference between telling your partner you once broke your foot vs you once had a penis.

I can prove this by the simple fact of you going into a women's bathroom and then tell the girls in there you used to be a man. Based on your opinion, every single girl in that bathroom will be ok with you because it would be no different than someone walking into the bathroom and saying they used to have a cleft palette.

In a perfect world, people would not care about gender. But this isn't a perfect world. If you hide this from your partner then I would agree that you will be essentially lying to him. Keeping secrets from him.

Quote from: Annah on August 30, 2012, 03:32:45 AM
because there is a huge sociological difference between telling your partner you once broke your foot vs you once had a penis.

I can prove this by the simple fact of you going into a women's bathroom and then tell the girls in there you used to be a man.

Many women who transition (see how I referred to people such as myself without using the term man?) will tell you all day long that they have always been female but then some of those same women will say that they used to be a man or they used to have a penis (for emphasis that they used to be a man) or that they are really a surgically modified man.  It's no wonder some women who transitioned who view themselves as altered men prefer to tell a partner that they aren't biologically female. 

It's a huge difference or a huge secret when you treat it like a huge difference and a huge secret.  That is why "stealth" is such an awful word, because it implies that women who transition are really just men in hiding and I know a lot of trans women feel that way and I'm not arguing.  Everyone has the freedom to self-identify.

However, I think it would be absolutely awful to live with a secret like that. 

I am one of those women who transitioned who have always been female.  And I know the power of words.  I used to share the same sentiment that you expressed but after I got over transition (and got over myself) I began to realize that I really had always been female.  And you are right, when ignorant people find out that we had to go through what we went through they think of us as men, even if they are nice and "accepting" about it.

I decided to put my money where my mouth is.  If I really have always been female then that is my truth and it is a truth that grows just like a little girl growing up into womanhood.  You have the power to create and to destroy with the things you say, especially on a forum like this.

Transition is what you make of it.  If you are a woman and you look like a woman and you aren't married with kids and working at a place where everyone knows your old name then feel free to be a woman.  Feel free to make no excuses.  Do you think that a woman who transitioned who never admits to anything except what she knows in her heart about herself is going to be torn apart by someone who loves her?  Or will it be the woman who breaks down and admits to being a man that will cause her husband to really freak?  There is nothing more damning than testifying against yourself as being a man in a woman disguise.

The power to create, the power to destroy.  Focus on what you don't want and it will begin to fill every room in your house.  Focus on what you have, on who you are, focus on personal honesty and you might just have something wonderful.

Another thought...

Woman transitions successfully and completely starts over.  She gives up her old career and begins from scratch in a completely new city in a completely new state (our country).  She left all her old friends behind, maybe they reminded her of a past that didn't belong to her, maybe she was never able to form any attachments due to GID.  So why not start out on a clean slate?  She has taken on a huge expense, SRS, maybe BAS or FFS...  Not to mention giving up her career and starting over with no job references.  It isn't easy but she makes a new life for herself and her reward is the freedom to be true to herself and to grow as a woman.

So she eventually meets a guy and goes out on a few dates.  When should she tell?  When should she prepare to break that news?  Her new life, everything that she sacrificed, saved for and worked for could be put in jeopardy if this guy freaks out when she tells him that she transitioned and he may choose to make an example out of her, make sure that no one is ever fooled by her ever again.  So how soon should she risk her life and everything she has worked for so some guy can feel good about where he puts his penis?

What is creating Society's perception of trans women, women being women or women admitting they are men?  What are we telling Society?  What are we telling people?  Having our cake and eating it too?  Talking out of both sides of our mouths?  Each and every one of us who transitions has a special opportunity to either show Society that we are our inner or true sex or to show Society that we are pretending to be women with everyone except for the people who really matter in our lives.  Why would Society accept us?

Maybe if we accept ourselves (for real) Society will begin to change how it views transsexuals.  Nobody believes in someone who doesn't even believe in herself.  We are setting the example that Society follows.

As always just something to consider, there is no right or wrong way but sometimes you can have what you want if you don't focus on everything you don't want. So I would say decide what you want and focus on that.

I think if we tell them anything, we should tell them we are non-cisgender.

Quote from: Annah on August 30, 2012, 03:32:45 AM
In a perfect world, people would not care about gender. But this isn't a perfect world. If you hide this from your partner then I would agree that you will be essentially lying to him. Keeping secrets from him.

I'm not willing to accept that there is a "moral" imperative for disclosure. That society has a problem with me is society's problem. Trying to say it's my problem is just victim blaming.

I am a female born with a physical defect, re: one penis. I can't possibly imagine telling someone I "used to be a man" or "I was born a boy" or any of the various permutations. THAT would be a lie. Just because society has an inaccurate perception of my self, my body and my identity, doesn't mean I have to agree, and certainly doesn't mean I have to obey.

There are plenty of valid reasons to disclose. Morality isn't one of them.

"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'"
― Isaac Asimov

Bite me world. Bite me.

What I have been attempting to demonstrate in this thread is that we can create our own "reality" and that "reality" is what people think.  In other words "intellectualism" is something that people do, they decide what reality is because ego = what I think about myself and reality = what I believe about life, the world and everything.  Everyone does it.  But it is like other things, if you know that people do it, if you understand it then you can make use of it to your own advantage.

But if you just accept your ideas as who you are and if you just accept that what you believe = life, the world and everything then it won't be easy for those things to overcome your preconceived notions about them.  It is like trees and bushes.  Some people just take for granted that trees grow and bushes grow, where and how they will.  But other people realize that you can plant a bush or a tree where you desire, and not only can you choose where to plant them but you can also trim them and train them.

People used to forage all over the place for fruit and vegetables and then other people came along who realized you could plant a garden and have the things you want at your finger tips.

The type of 'Intellectualism' I'm not advocating is the type that says, "Planting a garden, that's ridiculous, you can't just make things grow where you want them, besides if Mother Nature had wanted fruits and vegetables to grow in gardens she would have put them there in the first place!"  "And having your garden and your neat little rows of carrots, radishes and turnips is a LIE!"  "Gardens aren't natural and everyone knows that carrots don't grow in gardens, they grow out in the wilderness!"  "Besides, when you have your neighbors over for dinner and they ask to see pictures of the food you prepared in it's natural habitat, before you picked it, how will you will respond because everyone is going to realize that all you really are is a liar and a deceiver."

In the world where I live people never ask to see my childhood pictures unless they already heard a rumor (and believed it) that you planted your own garden and then they only ask for the pictures to let you know that they know, that you aren't getting away with it.

In the world where I live everyone thinks they already know pretty much everything.  People know that carrots grow out in the wilderness, next to the forest and a carrot found anywhere else is unnatural and best never be eaten.  The world where I live can be a wonderful place where you can have your carrots and peas and eat them too.  But in the world where I live reeducating everyone you meet to incorporate your vegetables into their salads is counter-productive and it's best to overcome your own misplaced ideas about what is important and how things work and just get on with life.

I would say that a real intellectual discovers what is counter-productive and allows that experience to flower by learning how to appreciate that which is counter-intuitive. 


You live in a house.  There is a jar of cookies on the floor just inside the front door.  The cookies were there when you rented the place.  At night when you come home from a job at the local mini mall you remind yourself where the jar of cookies is because you used to trip over them in the past but you are making a job of incorporating their existence into your reality in order to avoid another accident.  When you invite guests into your house you make it a point to tell them about the jar of cookes, "Careful when you come in, don't trip over the jar of cookies."

Everyone wants to talk about the jar of cookies.  Everyone has their own theories about what to tell their guests about the jar of cookies.  "Should I tell them before I invite them over or should I wait till they are about to enter my house?"  "Everyone is discussing when to tell and how to tell."  An 'Intellectual' (the kind of person I could respect and admire) would have dealt with the cookies a long time ago.  She would have been like, "WTF are these stupid cookies doing in the middle of the floor for people to trip over?"  And she would have either eaten them or tossed them out and they wouldn't even be an issue.  But no... everyone wants to talk about the cookies in the middle of the floor.  "Do we put a traffic cone next to them or do we set a potted plant on top of them?"  "When do we need to tell people about the jar of cookies, do we only tell the people who are closest to us or the people who will never have any occasion to visit us in our home?"  Cookies, cookies, cookies, what a fascinating topic.  Let's talk about cookies.

Or maybe...  How about this?  We refer to the jar of cookies by another name?  Lets call it a glass box of dense mini cakes?

Quote from: Noey Noonesson on August 30, 2012, 08:11:07 PM
I would say that a real intellectual discovers what is counter-productive and allows that experience to flower by learning how to appreciate that which is counter-intuitive. 


You live in a house.  There is a jar of cookies on the floor just inside the front door.  The cookies were there when you rented the place.  At night when you come home from a job at the local mini mall you remind yourself where the jar of cookies is because you used to trip over them in the past but you are making a job of incorporating their existence into your reality in order to avoid another accident.  When you invite guests into your house you make it a point to tell them about the jar of cookes, "Careful when you come in, don't trip over the jar of cookies."

Everyone wants to talk about the jar of cookies.  Everyone has their own theories about what to tell their guests about the jar of cookies.  "Should I tell them before I invite them over or should I wait till they are about to enter my house?"  "Everyone is discussing when to tell and how to tell."  An 'Intellectual' (the kind of person I could respect and admire) would have dealt with the cookies a long time ago.  She would have been like, "WTF are these stupid cookies doing in the middle of the floor for people to trip over?"  And she would have either eaten them or tossed them out and they wouldn't even be an issue.  But no... everyone wants to talk about the cookies in the middle of the floor.  "Do we put a traffic cone next to them or do we set a potted plant on top of them?"  "When do we need to tell people about the jar of cookies, do we only tell the people who are closest to us or the people who will never have any occasion to visit us in our home?"  Cookies, cookies, cookies, what a fascinating topic.  Let's talk about cookies.

I'm pretty sure it's not the same thing, nor is anyone stupid enough to actually leave a jar of cookies on the floor. Besides, what would be the metaphorical equivalent to "dealing with the cookies"?

Quote from: Noey Noonesson on August 30, 2012, 07:38:48 PM
What I have been attempting to demonstrate in this thread is that we can create our own "reality" and that "reality" is what people think.

You can't create everyone else's "reality" though.

The thing is, you're not just dealing with yourself. If you were, then that would be one thing. But a relationship is a partnership. You can control what you think and what you feel, but you can't control what other people think and what they feel. And this whole thing seems like having both sides of a conversation yourself and deciding on the course of action.

If no one ever has reason to ask the question, then you don't have any reason to answer it, if that's your choice. But that's making a very big assumption that they will never have any reason to ask it. And if they do... it may come back to bite you in the ass when things get difficult for reasons other than what the question is about. Your reality may be that it doesn't matter, that it's not who you are, that it's nothing to do with any part of your being... and your partner may totally agree with you. But if they found out somewhere other than from your lips first then whether they think it matters or not may be secondary to them feeling hurt that you just didn't say anything, and a breakdown of trust.

Of course, this may never happen and your relationship may be a blissful union that lasts well into the matching dribble bib and zimmer frame phase. But it's a risk you take. Your past may never be an issue, but your silence might. Words can create or destroy, but sometimes so can a lack of words. Often in the minds of others rather than ourselves.

Intellectual people may be able to create their own reality and decide what reality is, for them. But theirs isn't the only reality, albeit the only one they have mastery over. And in forming a connection with another, for better or worse, realities are interwoven. No one is an island.

Quote from: Sephirah on August 30, 2012, 08:29:09 PM
You can't create everyone else's "reality" though.

The thing is, you're not just dealing with yourself..

Exactly, I couldn't have stated it any better.  But for some reason many trans people keep on trying don't they, they even invented a new kind of woman.

As to the rest of your post, they could be pecan sandies but I was thinking they were chocolate chip, not the kind with walnuts in them.  There aren't any intellectual people, there are just people.

Ok, I'll just say tell them if you want to, don't if you don't. There's no shame in either path.

Quote from: TessaM on August 30, 2012, 08:44:46 PM
when I am in a relationship with a man whom I love, I feel like I should tell him of my past, not because theres something wrong with me (god im perfect, but we all know that ;) ) but because, as a person, ive had to go through a lot and im proud of all that. Im going to reluctantly call it cowardly to do otherwise...

You're still going through it.  Not all of us are.  For someone who is finished with transition this discussion is entirely irrelevant.  I had SRS in 2004 and have been full-time since 2005, I have been on hormones since 2000 and I'm not done with transition so for me this topic is relevant.  Some of us have less cookies in the jar, in my jar there are only crumbs.  In the movie 'The Matrix' some weird little kid told Neo, "There is no spoon."  Well... the truth is there is no jar. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Matrix (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Matrix)

When your jar is still full of cookies it is heavier.

Some of us will always have cookies in our jar.

Quote from: DianaP on August 30, 2012, 08:48:26 PM
Ok, I'll just say tell them if you want to, don't if you don't. There's no shame in either path.

Or realize there is no jar.

Transition has a lot of steps in it, some of the steps are physical steps.


You could invent the perfect and most fuel-efficient car in the world but if there is no petrol in your world then you are just another crazy inventor who invents junk that doesn't work.

Quote from: Noey Noonesson on August 30, 2012, 08:52:55 PM

You're still going through it.  Not all of us are.  For someone who is finished with transition this discussion is entirely irrelevant.  I had SRS in 2004 and have been full-time since 2005, I have been on hormones since 2000 and I'm not done with transition so for me this topic is relevant.  Some of us have less cookies in the jar, in my jar there are only crumbs.  In the movie 'The Matrix' some weird little kid told Neo, "There is no spoon."  Well... the truth is there is no jar. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Matrix (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Matrix)

It seems to me that pre-op non-cisgenders have no choice but to tell. The only question is when. I find it odd that they do not address this in their argument. And not only is there a difference between being post-op, there is a big difference between freshly post-op and those like Noey and myself who have been living as just "regular" women for years.

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on August 30, 2012, 10:52:36 PM
It seems to me that pre-op non-cisgenders have no choice but to tell. The only question is when. I find it odd that they do not address this in their argument.

Actually, I did answer the question as to when in my first reply to this thread:

Quote from: Connie Anne on August 24, 2012, 10:05:44 PM
I'm pre-op, have 2 adult kids who call me dad, and am pretty much out of the closet. I'd disclose at the outset.

Quote from: Sarah7 on August 30, 2012, 12:36:38 PM
I'm not willing to accept that there is a "moral" imperative for disclosure. That society has a problem with me is society's problem. Trying to say it's my problem is just victim blaming.

I am a female born with a physical defect, re: one penis. I can't possibly imagine telling someone I "used to be a man" or "I was born a boy" or any of the various permutations. THAT would be a lie. Just because society has an inaccurate perception of my self, my body and my identity, doesn't mean I have to agree, and certainly doesn't mean I have to obey.

There are plenty of valid reasons to disclose. Morality isn't one of them.

"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'"
― Isaac Asimov

Bite me world. Bite me.

That's fine, but 100% of the world just doesn't think the same way you do. You say it's a medical issue and it should be private. I can certainly respect that. But there also has to be a dose of reality thrown into there as well.

Changing your physical gender is not like having Renal Cancer or a broken foot. It just isn't in our world (it is in the world of DSM and within our circles....but not too many others outside of that sphere of influence). You may think it is and that is your right to believe that but try to tell a guy who has been intimate with you or has been married to you for a couple years find out about your birth gender. He isn't going to think you changing genders is compared to a kidney transplant. He's going to think you been lying to him for all this time. I mean...even if he was cool with it if you told him up front, the sheer fact that you have been hiding this from him will cause him to think "what else has she been hiding from me."

It's a lot more easier and better when you tell the guy right away. If he doesn't care then you know he aligns with your ideals with this. If he takes it hard then you will know he does not agree with your ideals about this.

Plus, your entire family and friends will probably not all agree to participate in the "hide" thing...even if you do try to convince them that it was a medical procedure.

And you don't agree it is a moral thing. That's cool. I respect that. I feel that it is a moral issue because for me..it involves having everyone you know or who is close to you from disclosing "a secret" to someone who may love you.

Another thing to think about. I am trans and I disagree with you. So think about the men who has hardly ever been involved in anything "transness" or only seen it on television or the movies and how they may react. As I said, it's your life and i can respect that but I wanted to throw some reality into this mix.

As I said before, I guess I'm just a product of a different environment to most of you folks. My friends and family would never disclose my status without my consent. It isn't their right. Just like it isn't my right to disclose any of their private things without their consent. That would be a huge betrayal of trust. That they might argue that I should tell, sure, but they'd never just go ahead because they disagreed with me. That's not how decent people behave. Speaking of morality and all.

I brought up the topic with a couple people a few weeks ago, about when I would tell and feeling weird and nervous about having to explain about it. The first response was "Why tell? Wait till it gets serious." From a straight cis woman. And, "it isn't really likely they'd react badly, right? Why are you worried?" From a straight(ish) cis guy. These are my friends. This is what my friends are like.

And really? You think I need to convince them it was a medical procedure? They were there with me every step of the way, holding my hand, looking after me. They know exactly what it is. Honestly, the people here... you are so used to terrible, vicious, ignorant human beings that it doesn't even cross your mind sometimes that some folks out there, even in real life, are actually totally cool. You all need to be around more cool people.

As to the lying thing? No it isn't lying. There is no reasonable expectation to get access to someone's private trauma. I don't feel a particular moral imperative to disclose my suicide attempts or my anorexia either. And the person should bloody well feel flattered that I trust them enough to tell them, when and if I do. The people in my life who know these things have LONG LONG existing relationships with me. Or are medical professionals who are required to maintain my privacy.

I'll disclose, as I said here: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,125565.msg987261.html#msg987261 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,125565.msg987261.html#msg987261) . But not because I feel like I have to, or I owe them. I'll disclose because a) I recognize that the world isn't perfect and I might occasionally run into to people from your world, which is apparently populated 100% by losers and b) I want to be able to share that part of my life with them.

And honestly the "I'm trans and I don't accept that" argument is terrible. I've found trans communities to be far, far less accepting on every possible level than my own cis community. And I think I've disclosed to maybe 3 or 4 people who hadn't already met at least one other trans person? Heh, my sister's partner has more trans friends than I do.

For sure I live in a bubble. A middleclass, educated, atheist, artistic, progressive, LGBT-positive, queer-ish, youngish, urban bubble. I strongly recommend the experience.

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on August 24, 2012, 10:17:08 PM
I watched the entire first video and I can definitely see the point of view and where she's coming from. It's a ->-bleeped-<-ty situation and she outlines a big chunk of why I want to get SRS (not the whole reason however). I'm sick of guys going from "So what do you do in school?", to either "YOU SHOULD'VE TOLD ME THAT SOONER!!" or showing me some trans porn. But I always have to think of my own safety and I don't want to risk it.

I'd like to point out that the girl who made that video has newer ones and it appears that she's currently in a happy relationship with a man who knows she's trans.

Quote from: Sarah7 on August 31, 2012, 09:05:56 AM
As I said before, I guess I'm just a product of a different environment to most of you folks. My friends and family would never disclose my status without my consent. It isn't their right. Just like it isn't my right to disclose any of their private things without their consent. That would be a huge betrayal of trust. That they might argue that I should tell, sure, but they'd never just go ahead because they disagreed with me. That's not how decent people behave. Speaking of morality and all.

I brought up the topic with a couple people a few weeks ago, about when I would tell and feeling weird and nervous about having to explain about it. The first response was "Why tell? Wait till it gets serious." From a straight cis woman. And, "it isn't really likely they'd react badly, right? Why are you worried?" From a straight(ish) cis guy. These are my friends. This is what my friends are like.

And really? You think I need to convince them it was a medical procedure? They were there with me every step of the way, holding my hand, looking after me. They know exactly what it is. Honestly, the people here... you are so used to terrible, vicious, ignorant human beings that it doesn't even cross your mind sometimes that some folks out there, even in real life, are actually totally cool. You all need to be around more cool people.

As to the lying thing? No it isn't lying. There is no reasonable expectation to get access to someone's private trauma. I don't feel a particular moral imperative to disclose my suicide attempts or my anorexia either. And the person should bloody well feel flattered that I trust them enough to tell them, when and if I do. The people in my life who know these things have LONG LONG existing relationships with me. Or are medical professionals who are required to maintain my privacy.

I'll disclose, as I said here: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,125565.msg987261.html#msg987261 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,125565.msg987261.html#msg987261) . But not because I feel like I have to, or I owe them. I'll disclose because a) I recognize that the world isn't perfect and I might occasionally run into to people from your world, which is apparently populated 100% by losers and b) I want to be able to share that part of my life with them.

And honestly the "I'm trans and I don't accept that" argument is terrible. I've found trans communities to be far, far less accepting on every possible level than my own cis community. And I think I've disclosed to maybe 3 or 4 people who hadn't already met at least one other trans person? Heh, my sister's partner has more trans friends than I do.

For sure I live in a bubble. A middleclass, educated, atheist, artistic, progressive, LGBT-positive, queer-ish, youngish, urban bubble. I strongly recommend the experience.

I live in a middle class, educated, respect all beliefs, progressive, LGBT positive queerish, youngish urban bubble too. Over 60-70% of my college is gay (including our Vice President) and I still disagree with your logic.

But good luck with this. If I were you I would save your above post and share it with the guy who finds out you were hiding things. It "may" convince him...it hasn't convinced me. If anything, it sounds like you are trying to create these "alternatives" because you are ashamed of who you are.

I said my peace here and now it's time to move on.

Quote from: Annah on August 31, 2012, 10:58:07 AM
But good luck with this. If I were you I would save your above post and share it with the guy who finds out you were hiding things. It "may" convince him...it hasn't convinced me. If anything, it sounds like you are trying to create these "alternatives" because you are ashamed of who you are.

*Shrug* I clearly stated in my post that I would disclose early, so I'll never be in that situation. Primarily because I'm NOT ashamed of who I am. And I'm queer. I don't date guys. Which I've also said already.

I still think "don't lie to your partner that's wrong, you have to disclose otherwise you are dishonest" crap comes from a very bad place. We aren't monsters, we don't owe anyone ->-bleeped-<-. We need to be practical, absolutely. No question. Protect yourself. But this isn't about morality. It's about what works in our given situations and for each individual person.

You keep trying to say "not disclosing is immoral" and then supporting it with what is actually an unrelated practical argument for disclosure. I don't disagree with the argument, just with your premise.

Quote from: Sarah7 on August 31, 2012, 11:19:03 AM
I still think "don't lie to your partner that's wrong, you have to disclose otherwise you are dishonest" crap comes from a very bad place. We aren't monsters, we don't owe anyone ->-bleeped-<-. We need to be practical, absolutely. No question. Protect yourself. But this isn't about morality. It's about what works in our given situations and for each individual person.

Right.

Quote from: Sarah7 on August 31, 2012, 09:05:56 AM
As I said before, I guess I'm just a product of a different environment to most of you folks. My friends and family would never disclose my status without my consent. It isn't their right. Just like it isn't my right to disclose any of their private things without their consent. That would be a huge betrayal of trust. That they might argue that I should tell, sure, but they'd never just go ahead because they disagreed with me. That's not how decent people behave. Speaking of morality and all.

I brought up the topic with a couple people a few weeks ago, about when I would tell and feeling weird and nervous about having to explain about it. The first response was "Why tell? Wait till it gets serious." From a straight cis woman. And, "it isn't really likely they'd react badly, right? Why are you worried?" From a straight(ish) cis guy. These are my friends. This is what my friends are like.

And really? You think I need to convince them it was a medical procedure? They were there with me every step of the way, holding my hand, looking after me. They know exactly what it is. Honestly, the people here... you are so used to terrible, vicious, ignorant human beings that it doesn't even cross your mind sometimes that some folks out there, even in real life, are actually totally cool. You all need to be around more cool people.

As to the lying thing? No it isn't lying. There is no reasonable expectation to get access to someone's private trauma. I don't feel a particular moral imperative to disclose my suicide attempts or my anorexia either. And the person should bloody well feel flattered that I trust them enough to tell them, when and if I do. The people in my life who know these things have LONG LONG existing relationships with me. Or are medical professionals who are required to maintain my privacy.

I'll disclose, as I said here: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,125565.msg987261.html#msg987261 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,125565.msg987261.html#msg987261) . But not because I feel like I have to, or I owe them. I'll disclose because a) I recognize that the world isn't perfect and I might occasionally run into to people from your world, which is apparently populated 100% by losers and b) I want to be able to share that part of my life with them.

And honestly the "I'm trans and I don't accept that" argument is terrible. I've found trans communities to be far, far less accepting on every possible level than my own cis community. And I think I've disclosed to maybe 3 or 4 people who hadn't already met at least one other trans person? Heh, my sister's partner has more trans friends than I do.

For sure I live in a bubble. A middleclass, educated, atheist, artistic, progressive, LGBT-positive, queer-ish, youngish, urban bubble. I strongly recommend the experience.

This X 10000000³

Great post. And this is why I wait till date #3 and far before any intimate activities take place. It's none of anyone's business, but my own. If some view it as lying, that is purely their perspective, but not mine.

And finally, the majority of guys I've told have been okay with me and my anatomy. Really. Even the big, tatted-up, buff gym rats, that I would've have bet would have run away screaming. You can't judge a book by it's cover.

Personally, I like to keep it right out there before anything actually happens. I did the mistake of not doing so a few times, and it always ended up badly.

For me, this is quite simple because all in all: Do I want to date someone who does not have an open mind towards trans-people? And my answer is no. So if the person isn't going to like me being transgender, it won't matter whether I tell them sooner or later. So I might as well just do it right away so that no one gets hurt.

But I guess it's different for each and every one. :)

Quote from: Ugla on August 31, 2012, 04:43:09 PM
For me, this is quite simple because all in all: Do I want to date someone who does not have an open mind towards trans-people? And my answer is no. So if the person isn't going to like me being transgender, it won't matter whether I tell them sooner or later. So I might as well just do it right away so that no one gets hurt.

This.

Quote from: Ugla on August 31, 2012, 04:43:09 PM
But I guess it's different for each and every one. :)

And this, too.

Quote from: Connie Anne on August 31, 2012, 12:06:14 AM
Actually, I did answer the question as to when in my first reply to this thread:

I was referring to Tessa's post not yours which reminds me that I want to address this from Tessa:

Quotebecause, as a person, ive had to go through a lot and im proud of all that. Im going to reluctantly call it cowardly to do otherwise... (disclose) (i really hope im not offending anyone when I say that, thats NOT why I come to susans) because you are doing a disservice to the trans community.

Unlike my affiliation with AA and NA who helped me build the clean life that I now have, the real life "trans community" has done nothing for me. I have no obligation to the "trans community" whatsoever. When I was at your stage, I felt pretty much the same way you do now.  But I do not want to be another Teresa Sparks. As one travels through this journey and begins to realize that the whole world sees you as a woman, pure and simple, one begins to forget that she is even trans. Someone who has not reached that zenith cannot possibly know how she will feel once she gets there. Time changes everything. That said. I never expect to be in a serious relationship with a man. I am involved in a long term relationship with a woman and have not "disclosed." I think I might have a different view if I were a straight woman.

Tessa,

Based on what you just said, I would be willing to "bet the farm" that when you are post-op and settled in your role (at least a couple years post-op) your attitude about disclosing will change. (You are pre-op, not non-op, correct?)

Also, I wonder. How do you expect to meet the "love of your life" when you are pre-op? I mean it is possible but...just saying.

Quote
For sure I live in a bubble. A middleclass, educated, atheist, artistic, progressive, LGBT-positive, queer-ish, youngish, urban bubble. I strongly recommend the experience.

I wish I could!  The youngish part, mostly.

;)

Cindi

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on August 31, 2012, 08:35:13 PM
I was referring to Tessa's post not yours which reminds me that I want to address this from Tessa:

Unlike my affiliation with AA and NA who helped me build the clean life that I now have, the real life "trans community" has done nothing for me. I have no obligation to the "trans community" whatsoever. When I was at your stage, I felt pretty much the same way you do now.  But I do not want to be another Teresa Sparks. As one travels through this journey and begins to realize that the whole world sees you as a woman, pure and simple, one begins to forget that she is even trans. Someone who has not reached that zenith cannot possibly know how she will feel once she gets there. Time changes everything. That said. I never expect to be in a serious relationship with a man. I am involved in a long term relationship with a woman and have not "disclosed." I think I might have a different view if I were a straight woman.

Yep...

People who are able to assimilate after transition, people who have their lives ahead of them, not behind them (wife, kids, indispensable career)...  People who are recognized as their true sex after transition, people who are ready to go out and make lives for themselves...  For people like that transition tends to become a bit like that first grade class you had in elementary school.  How many twenty year-olds spend all their time thinking about their first grade elementary school chums.  How many stay in touch or tweet one another?  When was the last first grade reunion you attended?

Transition is relevant for as long as it takes to do it, in most cases.

I know that for myself just having a vagina and wearing the clothes grew old and I needed more.  In the very beginning I was content with even less, just discussion of transition was exciting.  Now the prospect of sex with someone who thinks of me as a man who wants to be a woman?  I would rather cut on myself with a dull knife.

In a best-case scenario transition would be like learning to walk.  How many people who for whatever reason have to learn to walk again forever keep their wheel chair or crutches.  Some say, "I am so proud of transition, it will always be the most important thing to me ever."  "I am so proud of being trans, I'm always going to tell everyone I meet, forever."  My question would be, "Is that why you transitioned?"  Did you transition to forever live off the most amazing experience you have ever had?"  "If you did you are going to miss out on some much more amazing things than that."

Trust me, if you experienced any success with transition at all you will tire of "transition" pretty quickly.  If you are still in the process of transitioning, "Well yes, isn't it the most amazing thing?"

Quote from: Noey Noonesson on September 01, 2012, 07:07:15 AM

[clipped]

Trust me, if you experienced any success with transition at all you will tire of "transition" pretty quickly.  If you are still in the process of transitioning, "Well yes, isn't it the most amazing thing?"

THIS!
What can one add?
I just wouldn't know right now.

Axx

I should probably shorten my post to what you quoted Axelle.  For me less is usually more.  I have a lot of momentum and only a little bit to say.

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on August 31, 2012, 08:35:13 PM
I was referring to Tessa's post not yours

Hmm, it seemed that your challenge was broader than than just one post.

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on August 31, 2012, 08:35:13 PM
I have no obligation to the "trans community" whatsoever.

Then why come to a trans support site? Isn't this site and its members part of the "real life trans community?"

Quote from: Noey Noonesson on September 01, 2012, 07:07:15 AM
Trust me, if you experienced any success with transition at all you will tire of "transition" pretty quickly.  If you are still in the process of transitioning, "Well yes, isn't it the most amazing thing?"

Does being called "ma'am" by strangers count as success, even when one is pre-op?

I will always be the father of my kids and the first husband of my ex-wife. I am still in relationship with the three of them. In my past, I was a woman trying to be a man. It worked for a while. Now I am a woman who is currently male bodied. Barring unforeseen circumstances, the male-bodied part will change when I have SRS. But, my status as a father and ex-husband will not change, and I don't want that status to change. It's a part of my life, and to me it's nothing to be ashamed of.

I had identified as genderqueer for a time, and I still queer the concept of gender as is appropriate to my situation. I don't see why correcting my anatomy would change that aspect of me. In fact, Padma worded it quite well in another thread:

Quote from: Padma on September 01, 2012, 06:18:35 AM
Nice :). I've just cottoned on to the fact that just because we transition doesn't mean we have to stop being genderqueer ;D. It's good for world diversity...

I will disclose at the outset. If that makes me seem like less of a woman to others, then those are others who I probably don't want to be in relationship with anyway. I will not deny who I am or deny my relationships with my loved ones. This is what works for me, and that should be good enough.

Quote from: Connie Anne on September 01, 2012, 01:37:09 PM

Does being called "ma'am" by strangers count as success, even when one is pre-op?

I will always be the father of my kids and the first husband of my ex-wife. I am still in relationship with the three of them. In my past, I was a woman trying to be a man. It worked for a while. Now I am a woman who is currently male bodied. Barring unforeseen circumstances, the male-bodied part will change when I have SRS. But, my status as a father and ex-husband will not change, and I don't want that status to change. It's a part of my life, and to me it's nothing to be ashamed of.

I had identified as genderqueer for a time, and I still queer the concept of gender as is appropriate to my situation. I don't see why correcting my anatomy would change that aspect of me. In fact, Padma worded it quite well in another thread:

I will disclose at the outset. If that makes me seem like less of a woman to others, then those are others who I probably don't want to be in relationship with anyway. I will not deny who I am or deny my relationships with my loved ones. This is what works for me, and that should be good enough.

It's not a contest, if being ma'am-ed feels like success to you then feel free to experience it as such.  We all have a story and a situation.  It doesn't matter what it seems like to others, no one else has to live your life for you.  Some people are just happy to wear the clothes, some people are just happy to have the surgery, etc.  As long as you are happy you win.

On any trans forum, embracing trans-ness is always a derp win because on a trans forum being trans is something everyone can relate to.

I didn't say it was a contest, but you did use the term "success" with regards to transition. Maybe I misinterpreted your comment.

Quote from: Connie Anne on September 01, 2012, 07:01:39 PM
I didn't say it was a contest, but you did use the term "success" with regards to transition. Maybe I misinterpreted your comment.

For myself, my goal with regards to transition was to have a female life.  At the time I really didn't have a clue what a female life was.  Probably due to having a testosterone dominated endocrinology I figured, "Well... I have always been female (somehow) so therefore I already know everything there is to know about being a woman.  I have encountered a lot of M2Fs who have the same attitude as I did and they are typically in the beginning of transition like I was.

I remember coming out as trans and being "accepted".  Transition caused me to become much more social, I finally felt comfortable and I finally existed.  I figured I would always be trans and I would always have to tell partners and seek their acceptance.

After a while I was fortunate enough that people just assumed that I had always been female and I began to notice there was a HUGE chasm or divide between being "accepted" and between having people just assume I had always been female.  For one thing guys no longer thought of me as disgusting or sick or gross.  Sure there are all kinds of guys but on average when guys knew I transitioned they found me repulsive whereas on average guys who just thought I had always been female were willing to drink my bath water (etc.).  A massive difference!

While transition is not a contest there are different levels of success.  If you are perfectly happy with things the way they are then why change?  That would be silly?  People don't typically change their lives or do things without a reason.

Once I realized the difference between having to seek acceptance as a trans woman and having the freedom to just be a woman (on every level) there was no turning back for me.  But I never had any kids.  I was never married.  I never had a career and honestly before transition I had nothing except a desire to kill myself.  Transition gave me everything I have.  My life is ahead of me, I have nothing to look back on or cherish except for my history of having lived as a woman.  I don't appreciate when people try to take my life as a woman away from me and the truth is I would fight to the death to keep what I have.

There was a time when most women who transitioned were older but now more and more transitioning women are younger and younger.  They have their lives ahead of them and I don't see any reason for them to marry the past with the future and compromise.  However as I said people tend not to do anything without a reason and if a person is happy with things the way they are then why bother changing anything?  Also for various reasons some women who transition will choose to limit the degree to which they experience life as female.  Some can't pass as female.  Some have kids and a wife or a valuable career.

As long as you are happy it really doesn't matter to what degree you are able to experience life as a female.  I know there is a difference between being accepted as a trans woman and having a life where people just assume you have always been female.  Will everyone get there, does everyone want to get there?

Does it matter?

It only matters if it matters to you.  Being happy is it's own level of success.

Also nothing I say matters.  Even I know that.  As people we don't seek to learn something from someone else, we seek to have others tell us what we want to hear.  The things I say only matter to people who want to hear them and even then they don't really matter.

Quote from: Noey Noonesson on September 01, 2012, 07:58:09 PM
After a while I was fortunate enough that people just assumed that I had always been female and I began to notice there was a HUGE chasm or divide between being "accepted" and between having people just assume I had always been female.  For one thing guys no longer thought of me as disgusting or sick or gross.  Sure there are all kinds of guys but on average when guys knew I transitioned they found me repulsive whereas on average guys who just thought I had always been female were willing to drink my bath water (etc.).  A massive difference!

You do have a point there. I wish I could get to the point where I am just seen as a woman, not as a trans woman  :-\. However, I'm non-op, so I'll settle with people close to me knowing my past and everyone else being in the dark. Personally, I don't think it's any stranger's//acquaintance's business what my gender history is.