Susan's Place Transgender Resources

In Berkeley, at least, but keep in mind, trends start here and spread. A young Asian guy in Women's film class described himself as a straight cisgendered guy. Everyone seemed to know what he meant.  I have heard the term used by other students as well. The significance of this is that my idea for us to become known as non-cisgender (when it is necessary to label ourselves other than just women)  instead of trans can begin to take hold.

"In Berkeley, at least, but keep in mind, trends start here and spread." Snort.... chuckle...You didn't really just say that!

Not that it's a bad thing in any way, but I'm not sure why he would describe himself as a cisgendered guy. I mean, uh, is there a need? Isn't it what people would naturally assume by a simple matter of probability? oo'

Besides, isn't even stating that he's a guy a bit weird? I mean, isn't that the kind of thing that you show but don't say? Not to mention the name+voice+context combination usually make gender more than obvious... I'm a bit lost. Was there a special context?

In my head, even if it was a transgendered person who still doesn't pass 100 % who stated their gender in an introduction, it would sound a bit strange...

I don't know about being "non-cisgender." It would seem to be defining myself by what I'm not rather than what I am.

Part of me thinks it's cool that someone would refer to themselves in that way because it like saying "I was born this way and I happy with that but, I understand not everyone is like me" another part of me thinks its a redundant use of language and can almost be construed as another way of othering people with a transexual medical history....

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on August 28, 2012, 07:22:43 PM
"In Berkeley, at least, but keep in mind, trends start here and spread." Snort.... chuckle...You didn't really just say that!

I cracked up too. Love these things.  ;D

 Being called "trans" others us, so we invent "cis" to set equal ground. Sometimes, we hope that the cis people might use cis too, as that would mean they were sensitive about not wanting to other us. Now that they are beginning to use cis, it's redundant and another devious way to other us in disguise.

Well, I can't say it doesn't figure. If people are using the word, they are probably aware of the sensitivity of the trans audience - that would provide motive for using cis in the first place. I don't imagine that they would use the word if they had ill intentions, at least at this stage of usage.

I'm for it. I mean, yeah, it's probably silly to use an adjective to describe something that one would assume 99.9% of that thing definitely is... but I appreciate the intent behind it. That guy's just trying to be sensitive and accepting.

I think that yes, 'cis' is starting to hit the mainstream, terminology-wise. It'll take a few more years, at least (it's in the very beginning part of mainstreamification), but someday it'll just be a normal everyday term, like 'straight'.

I remember reading the term on a TV Tropes page just a couple of weeks ago or so.

non-cisgender actually means non-binary so no I won't be promoting use of it.   

plus I've never heard cisgendered used over here in UK anyway.

It would depend on the circumstances and the topic of conversation, but it sounds like the sort of thing that would surface in a Gender Studies class, even if nowhere else.  It means that at least there are a few more people out there who 'get it'.

Karen.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on August 28, 2012, 07:22:43 PM
"In Berkeley, at least, but keep in mind, trends start here and spread." Snort.... chuckle...You didn't really just say that!

Quote from: Elena G on August 28, 2012, 07:51:54 PM
I cracked up too. Love these things.  ;D

It is a fact whether you like it or not.  San Francisco and, by extension Berkeley-- as Berkeley is certainly part of San Francisco  culture--is one of the seven trend-setting cities in the world, the others being Milan, Paris, New York, Tokyo, Los Angeles and London. 

Quote from: lilacwoman on August 29, 2012, 03:17:19 AM
non-cisgender actually means non-binary so no I won't be promoting use of it.   

plus I've never heard cisgendered used over here in UK anyway.

I never hear transgender either outside of women's studies classes. Cisgender means simply having a gender that matches that with which one is born --to put in layperson's terms--so non-cisgender means that one's gender identity differs from that with which one is born.

I identify with being non-cisgender because when considering my core identity, I did not change anything. I am still the same as I was born, only with modification so that society can recognize who I really am.

Quote from: Isabelle on August 28, 2012, 07:48:10 PM
Part of me thinks it's cool that someone would refer to themselves in that way because it like saying "I was born this way and I happy with that but, I understand not everyone is like me" another part of me thinks its a redundant use of language and can almost be construed as another way of othering people with a transexual medical history....

I did not explain the context of what the student said because I didn't think it was relevant but I can assure you that he wasn't trying to "other" transsexuals, he was identifying himself as part of the dominant hegemony.

What about Boston? We started the trend of mass produced tea, hundreds of years ago! That's no pile of beans. Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop l.
I never hear transgender either outside of women's studies classes. Cisgender means simply having a gender that matches that with which one is born --to put in layperson's terms--so non-cisgender means that one's gender identity differs from that with which one is born.

In Uk TS get 'transgendered' all the time which is why I constantly point out that TS isn't TG.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on August 29, 2012, 12:28:34 PM
What about Boston? We started the trend of mass produced tea, hundreds of years ago! That's no pile of beans. Hugs, Devlyn

My hometown is Baltimore where one might claim, we invented crab cakes, in Atlanta, Coca-Cola was invented but that hardly qualifies these places, or Boston, as globally trend-setting cities. Sorry. 


As an academic, a published writer, and a researcher, all of my opinions can be backed up with evidence. In this case, here is my source for San Francisco being one of the top seven trend-setting cities. You might notice that California is the only state with two trend-setting cities. Of course, not every trend starts here, just many of them perhaps even most. (US anyway)

http://www.henrikvejlgaard.com/Images/NewslMedia.pdf (http://www.henrikvejlgaard.com/Images/NewslMedia.pdf)

I also found this but the source is not academic:

Freeways (Los Angeles)
Raves (Los Angeles)
Indoor shopping malls (Los Angeles / OC)
Drive-thrus (Los Angeles / OC)
Surf rock (OC)
West Coast hip-hop (Long Beach / Oakland)
Modern theme parks (Anaheim)
Movies* (Hollywood)
Conservation zoos (San Diego)
Martinis and Irish coffees (San Francisco)
Jeans (San Francisco)
Fortune cookies (San Francisco)
Psychedelic music (San Francisco)
Solar power (San Francisco)
Domestic partnership (San Francisco / West Hollywood)
LSD (Berkeley)
3-D animation (Emeryville)
The Internet* (Silicon Valley)
iPods (Silicon Valley)

-fashion trends
-car trends
-food trends
-many police procedures originated here
-gangs originated here
-police helicopters originated here
-crystal meth
"Val Speak" / Valley Girls

Sushi in the 60s
Yoga in the 70s
Bottled water in the 80s
Japanophile culture in the 90s
The smoking ban in the 90s.
California wine culture in the 90s.
The green/organic food movement of 2000s.
CA didn't originate it, but that state is always the first to start or grasp the trend.

Hippy culture, Skateboard culture, surfing culture, casual fashion culture, car culture and the breakdown of formal wear culture, modern day gay rights movement...
*questionable. Al Gore invented the internet and movies got started in New Jersey.

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on August 29, 2012, 01:25:52 PM
My hometown is Baltimore where one might claim, we invented crab cakes, in Atlanta, Coca-Cola was invented but that hardly qualifies these places, or Boston, as globally trend-setting cities. Sorry. 


As an academic, a published writer, and a researcher, all of my opinions can be backed up with evidence. In this case, here is my source for San Francisco being one of the top seven trend-setting cities. You might notice that California is the only state with two trend-setting cities. Of course, not every trend starts here, just many of them perhaps even most. (US anyway)

http://www.henrikvejlgaard.com/Images/NewslMedia.pdf (http://www.henrikvejlgaard.com/Images/NewslMedia.pdf)

I also found this but the source is not academic:

Freeways (Los Angeles)
Raves (Los Angeles)
Indoor shopping malls (Los Angeles / OC)
Drive-thrus (Los Angeles / OC)
Surf rock (OC)
West Coast hip-hop (Long Beach / Oakland)
Modern theme parks (Anaheim)
Movies* (Hollywood)
Conservation zoos (San Diego)
Martinis and Irish coffees (San Francisco)
Jeans (San Francisco)
Fortune cookies (San Francisco)
Psychedelic music (San Francisco)
Solar power (San Francisco)
Domestic partnership (San Francisco / West Hollywood)
LSD (Berkeley)
3-D animation (Emeryville)
The Internet* (Silicon Valley)
iPods (Silicon Valley)

-fashion trends
-car trends
-food trends
-many police procedures originated here
-gangs originated here
-police helicopters originated here
-crystal meth
"Val Speak" / Valley Girls

Sushi in the 60s
Yoga in the 70s
Bottled water in the 80s
Japanophile culture in the 90s
The smoking ban in the 90s.
California wine culture in the 90s.
The green/organic food movement of 2000s.
CA didn't originate it, but that state is always the first to start or grasp the trend.

Hippy culture, Skateboard culture, surfing culture, casual fashion culture, car culture and the breakdown of formal wear culture, modern day gay rights movement...
*questionable. Al Gore invented the internet and movies got started in New Jersey.

I've been to several of those cities and wasn't impressed by the 'trend setting' at all. It's all pretty much a way to put something 'en vogue' for people who lack real, profound knowledge of little known costumes or cultures that have been there for eons, and get recycled to be seen as something new. Trends usually put an emphasis on the banal aspects of things and disregard their true essence, which most often is the thing that cannot be sold or mass marketed. Most people that follow trends are the ones that wouldn't be attracted to those things if they didn't have the fancy appeal the silly machinery of marketing associates them with. That's why 'westernized' chinese restaurants are dime a dozen, and a very good dim sum is so friggin' hard to find (at least where I live). Or why Taco Bell or Chick-fil-A and all that poop food is so popular, but the greasy mexican joint round the corner with the old mexican lady cooking kickass food is half-empty every night. Then you have all those academia suits with bigger-than-thou attitudes and racks of books that make humongous research about the cultural subproducts we're being fed, created in those holy cities that epitomize human progress.

So f*** trends.

Quote from: Elena G on August 29, 2012, 04:03:24 PM
I've been to several of those cities and wasn't impressed by the 'trend setting' at all. It's all pretty much a way to put something 'en vogue' for people who lack real, profound knowledge of little known costumes or cultures that have been there for eons, and get recycled to be seen as something new. Trends usually put an emphasis on the banal aspects of things and disregard their true essence,[nonsense] which most often is the thing that cannot be sold or mass marketed. Most people that follow trends are the ones that wouldn't be attracted to those things if they didn't have the fancy appeal the silly machinery of marketing associates them with. That's why 'westernized' chinese restaurants are dime a dozen, and a very good dim sum is so friggin' hard to find (at least where I live). Or why Taco Bell or Chick-fil-A and all that poop food is so popular, but the greasy mexican joint round the corner with the old mexican lady cooking kickass food is half-empty every night. Then you have all those academia suits with bigger-than-thou attitudes and racks of books that make humongous research about the cultural subproducts we're being fed, created in those holy cities that epitomize human progress.

So f*** trends.

Trends that are beneficial last, ones that don't merely fade. I would argue that Valley girlspeak is a fad and will fade. Some trends are beneficial.  Right turn on red, for instance. Most people would agree that is a good trend.  Metering lights are a pain but they are beneficial and will probably be something that will spread. Water fountains have begun to appear that have spigots to fill your water bottle. And here on campus, they provide filtered, cold water at zero cost to the consumer. (The only cost is saving your water bottle) Sooner or later, you will see these water fountains everywhere.

I think people argue against your point because it comes across as if you're going "I'm at UC Berkeley and you're not nah-nah-na-nah-nah". I know you're not doing that, but people identify a lot with places they live and when those places get called "inferior" (indirectly, of course) through their lack of "trend-setting" power, they tend to push back and take offense.

Lets tone down the insults.

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on August 29, 2012, 04:25:44 PM

Trends that are beneficial last, ones that don't merely fade. I would argue that Valley girlspeak is a fad and will fade. Some trends are beneficial.  Right turn on red, for instance. Most people would agree that is a good trend.  Metering lights are a pain but they are beneficial and will probably be something that will spread. Water fountains have begun to appear that have spigots to fill your water bottle. And here on campus, they provide filtered, cold water at zero cost to the consumer. (The only cost is saving your water bottle) Sooner or later, you will see these water fountains everywhere.

I could've gone forever with every kind of trend you could imagine. Water fountains? Is that a trend worth mentioning coming out of a big city? I'm talking about the phenomena that make those seven cities appear in such a list, the ones that really matter, which are the ones that make loads of money go around, create media attention, following, etc. It CAN look like a feeble attempt at whatever you were thinking I was trying to do, but just by the type of examples I chose.

All I was trying to explain is that trends are usually overrated. Many things labeled as trends are nothing but the simple and mere act of reinventing the wheel. People put an absurdly high amount of importance on them cause they have an iconic quality and make them feel special. But that's just added value. From Apple products to social conventions, and anything in between.

I know that maybe you feel very assertive because you quote many things with published material and, therefore, make it look like it's utterly right. But that doesn't make it any less debatable.

And please, next time you quote something, don't edit the quote, much less with a derogative word.
Thank you.

Certain words are not permitted on this site, as per Rule # 11 of the TOS.

Quote from: Susan on July 27, 2006, 07:45:44 PM
11. Foul or obscene language, and/or subjects belongs on the street, Please do not bring it on to my site.

In addition to toning down the insults, let's refrain from using profanities.

-Connie Anne
Global Moderator

Asterisks were mine, not software's. I'm learning to censor myself a bit. Sorry.  :embarrassed:

By the way, is it kosher to use the word 'kickass'? Thanks in advance.

Quote from: Elena G on August 29, 2012, 05:14:57 PM
I could've gone forever with every kind of trend you could imagine. Water fountains? Is that a trend worth mentioning coming out of a big city?

Of course it is. Can you imagine the resources that can be saved if we eliminated or greatly reduced the use of bottled water? I can look it up if you would like.

QuoteI'm talking about the phenomena that make those seven cities appear in such a list, the ones that really matter, which are the ones that make loads of money go around, create media attention, following, etc. It CAN look like a feeble attempt at whatever you were thinking I was trying to do, but just by the type of examples I chose.

You created a classic straw argument. 

QuoteAll I was trying to explain is that trends are usually overrated. Many things labeled as trends are nothing but the simple and mere act of reinventing the wheel. People put an absurdly high amount of importance on them cause they have an iconic quality and make them feel special. But that's just added value. From Apple products to social conventions, and anything in between.

OK, now you are making a sweeping generalization. Another logical fallacy. 

QuoteI know that maybe you feel very assertive because you quote many things with published material and, therefore, make it look like it's utterly right. But that doesn't make it any less debatable.

Anything is debatable. I know because I have engaged in debates in which i have to debate both sides of an issue. But I debate based on evidence and refute logical fallacies, which people often fall into the trap of using. 

QuoteAnd please, next time you quote something, don't edit the quote, much less with a derogative word.
Thank you.

I did not edit your quote I inserted a comment which is a perfectly fair thing to do.

And i might add that pointing out the logical fallacies in an argument is not an insult. Furthermore, I did not start this little aside. The discussion was started by a snarky comment.

Quote from: Elena G on August 29, 2012, 05:25:44 PM
Asterisks were mine, not software's. I'm learning to censor myself a bit. Sorry.  :embarrassed:

By the way, is it kosher to use the word 'kickass'? Thanks in advance.

That might or might not be. I'd have to ask other staff. I'm inclined to believe it's borderline.

BTW I might also add that there is nothing wrong with having a good, healthy debate as long as we keep it civil, which i try to do but sometimes might go a little over the line.

Ad hominem attacks are also logical fallacies BTW.  :)

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on August 29, 2012, 05:37:53 PM
And i might add that pointing out the logical fallacies in an argument is not an insult. Furthermore, I did not start this little aside. The discussion was started by a snarky comment.

Some of the comments you've made have seemed to be condescending and, therefore, admonitions were made.

Quote from: Susan on July 27, 2006, 07:45:44 PM
2. Any attempts to stage protests, dispute the site policies, the TOS/rules, or actions of the staff; in the public areas of this site will not be tolerated and will result in your removal. If you have any issues contact Susan by email (susan@susans.org), or forum private message, and not bring these types of issues into the public spaces on this website. For the proper way to handle problems of this nature see item #20 below.

Here's item 20:

Quote from: Susan on July 27, 2006, 07:45:44 PM
20. The staff of this web site are here to provide support to our members and visitors and to provide a safe environment by enforcing the TOS and rules of this web site and chat server. If you disagree with their actions, or in regards to a specific situation you may contact Susan (susan@susans.org) or any of the other administrators by email or forum private message, with the details of the situation. They will review your complaint and take any corrective action that may be required by the situation. All user complaints and issues are taken seriously and will be investigated thoroughly.

If you object to what I've done, contact Forum Admin and Susan. They will take the appropriate action.

Thank you.

I write in a polemic style that might be interpreted at times to be condescending but that is not my intent. Many of my posts have a humorous subtext which many people don't get...but many do as evidenced by private messages I receive.

Anyway, I need to get back to studying and dissecting Mark Twain.

A polemic ( /pəˈlɛmɪk/) is a contentious argument that is intended to establish the truth of a specific belief and the falsity of the contrary belief. Polemics are mostly seen in arguments about very controversial topics.

Well I suggest you reconsider your style of writing, it isn't always appreciated.

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on August 29, 2012, 05:37:53 PM
Of course it is. Can you imagine the resources that can be saved if we eliminated or greatly reduced the use of bottled water? I can look it up if you would like.

I live in a place that has done exactly that for more than two centuries. So you guys in Berkeley need a lot of catch up to do ;) .

ANYWAY

So, cisgender becoming part of the vernacular?

That's awesome!

Quote from: SilentOwls on August 29, 2012, 06:04:07 PM
ANYWAY

So, cisgender becoming part of the vernacular?

That's awesome!

Yes, let's get back on topic.

As I posted, it depends on the context. 

We just covered the Boston Tea Party in a History lecture Devlyn.  Bunch of smugglers unhappy at a cargo of cheaper tea arriving.  >:-)  Context is everything.

Smugglers is such a harsh word. Expedient commodities providers sounds more professional.

And the contraband played on...
:)

Americans are strange. Protesting when taxes go down!  ;)

Quote from: Bailey on August 29, 2012, 10:08:39 PM
My personal opinion is that stating whether or not someone is transgendered or any derivative thereof or is cisgendered still implies separation. I have seen it in other instances such as gay/lesbian/bisexual (etc) and straight. It just serves to separate one group from another. Cisgender, in my mind, unless used in a non-biased, academic sense, which I have only seen twice to date, just seems to emphasize that separation even more. Getting up in front of a group of people and saying "I am a cisgendered, straight male" automatically implies that he is neither transgendered or homosexual/bisexual. Why does it need to be said in the first place? Why can he not just be a human being? Why cannot we accept him as he comes? Why does he feel the need to identify himself as such?

I explained it before. He was making it clear that he was  part of the dominant (straight cisgender male) hegemony. If he were gay or non-cis, he would not be part of the dominant group. If he were black he would not be part of the dominant. The statement was relevant to a conversation in a Gender and Women's Study Film class.

No one is just a human being in this racist, sexist society. 

To me, non-cisgender gets rid of the stigma that we "changed our sex." I do not identify as trans-anything but if I do have to disclose, such as to a medical provider. (Why are you being prescribed hormones?) Uh, because I am non-cisgender woman. So far, everyone has known what I meant.

Labels can be useful - so long as we get to be the ones choosing them (and when to use them) about ourselves. And they usually need clarifying, because everyone means something a bit different by each one. Thus is dialogue stimulated (or near equivalent... ::))

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on August 29, 2012, 01:25:52 PM
My hometown is Baltimore where one might claim, we invented crab cakes, in Atlanta, Coca-Cola was invented but that hardly qualifies these places, or Boston, as globally trend-setting cities. Sorry. 


As an academic, a published writer, and a researcher, all of my opinions can be backed up with evidence. In this case, here is my source for San Francisco being one of the top seven trend-setting cities. You might notice that California is the only state with two trend-setting cities. Of course, not every trend starts here, just many of them perhaps even most. (US anyway)

http://www.henrikvejlgaard.com/Images/NewslMedia.pdf (http://www.henrikvejlgaard.com/Images/NewslMedia.pdf)

I also found this but the source is not academic:

Freeways (Los Angeles) Long Island Expressway, 1908; Autobahn, Germany, 1932
Raves (Los Angeles) London, 1950s; Techno, London, 1980s
Indoor shopping malls (Los Angeles / OC) Southdale Center, Edina, Minn
Drive-thrus (Los Angeles / OC) Red's Giant Hamburg, Springfield, Mo
Surf rock (OC)
West Coast hip-hop (Long Beach / Oakland)
Modern theme parks (Anaheim) Santa Claus Land, Indiana, 1946
Movies* (Hollywood) Louis Lumiere, France, 1895
Conservation zoos (San Diego) Durrell Wild Animal Park, Jersey, UK
Martinis and Irish coffees (San Francisco) Irish Coffee, Shannon Airport, Ireland
Jeans (San Francisco)
Fortune cookies (San Francisco)
Psychedelic music (San Francisco) Byrds, Eight Miles High; 13th Floor Elevators, Texas
Solar power (San Francisco) Silicon Solar Cell, R S Ohl, Bell Labs, NJ
Domestic partnership (San Francisco / West Hollywood)
LSD (Berkeley) Zandoz Laboratories, Switzerland, 1938
3-D animation (Emeryville)
The Internet* (Silicon Valley) Leonard Kleinrock, MIT, 1961; certainly not Albert Gore
iPods (Silicon Valley)

SNIP

Quote from: Jamie D on August 31, 2012, 05:51:43 AM

link?

Since there's a general lack of civility (especially about debating the argument, not the opponent) I'm locking this thread.

Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on August 29, 2012, 01:25:52 PM
As an academic, a published writer, and a researcher, all of my opinions can be backed up with evidence.

Um, just for the record, I've run into quite a few published academic works that lied or fabricated or took extreme liberties or just plain got it wrong. There is plenty of shoddy scholarship in the world, some of it intentional and some of it quite intentional. And the grander or more sweeping your claims, the more evidence people are going to want. In such cases, a handful of anecdotal evidence doesn't quite cut it.

One nice thing about this site is that we can receive kudos for accomplishments that tend to come harder to trans people than to cis people. That kind of positive reinforcement is one thing Susan's Place is meant to offer. But how people say things is at least as important as what they say. We all (yes, including me) say unfortunate things from time to time, but we should all be mindful of tone and should try not to say things in ways that prompt hostile responses. When people get annoyed, they often become uncivil, and threads get locked.

Note: I have altered my original message to make it less personal and less confrontational; please accept my apologies if the original came across as obnoxious. I don't know whether I have succeeded in my revision, but I have tried.

Quote from: SilentOwls on August 31, 2012, 10:53:01 PM
link?

I responded in kind to a post that lacked specificity, was poorly researched, and error-ridden.