Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Hello, If I may ask a question of you?

Why do you need/want a Church?

This mystifies me and I would like to understand.

Thank you kindly.

This is just a quick response, as I need to prepare for work [more later]:

Revelation 21

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

After the absolute hell that I have been through in this life, nothing short of Truth and Heaven will suffice.

I don't think you need a church.

I think what you need is something beyond yourself. You need a greater purpose beyond self.

My family, my faith community, my local community, my nation, my world - all give me a reason to be more than an individual that is only concerned about myself.

I like to believe that I'd be willing to give up my life for any of these five communities (I'm certain I would for the first two, but maybe not the last three) For me, this willingness to give up your life for others, is the message of Jesus dieing on he cross. Jesus didn't die for our sins. That's absurd. Jesus died because he spoke truth to power for the good of the world. And he was not willing to stop speaking that truth even if it meant his own death.

I think what we all need is to realize that there are things out there that are more important and more enduring than ourselves or our own happiness. For me that realization - that my life isn't just about me- has been nurtured by my church so that is why I am an active member of my faith community.


Debbie

a church is a building? who needs a building? or maybe it is a group of people, aka a congregation? a prison is a congregation of people, too. if you need to find beauty, you can find it anywhere if you know how to look for it...if you need to find G_D, you only have to open your eyes...

Church, i think not.  I need not church or the Christian God for my strength, for I have Mother Earth, and she nourishes and helps me and everyone else grow.  She gives me my home and food, and I give her back love and care.

The main purpose of a church is to learn and explore the bible.  It is also a way of setting aside time to specifically focus on God.  It is possible to get by without a church, but it is a tool that many people find useful in learning to be closer to God.  I still have very mixed beliefs at the moment as many of them have been shaped by the real world despite being raised as a christian.  Oh well, I'll get them sorted out one of these days.

A church (or synagogue or mosque or temple or coven or whatever...) is a community you come together with to support one another, grow together, and to help one another seek for meaning in your lives.  It is a place you can seek god and god can seek you in the faces of those around you.  It is a place where you learn to love and to be loved. 

If you do not find these things in the church you attend, then it is the prison that jeri spoke of.  Which are you in?  The building will give you no clues.  Ask whether the truth has set you free, or if the "truth" has made you a prisoner.  By their fruits you will know them.

Quote from: Lisbeth on April 20, 2007, 12:34:25 PM
A church (or synagogue or mosque or temple or coven or whatever...) is a community you come together with to support one another, grow together, and to help one another seek for meaning in your lives.  It is a place you can seek god and god can seek you in the faces of those around you.  It is a place where you learn to love and to be loved.

That is a great answer Lisbeth. I have been to churches were God's spirit is not very evident and I have been to others where I deeply sensed the presence of God.

You may seek out a  church "(or synagogue or mosque or temple or coven or whatever...)" because you "need" it but eventually I would hope that you enter into the fellowship and give as well as receive. It is when that happens that you truly have found a home.

Debbie

A church is a place where people can study and question the bible together.

As ministers have stated any religion is one generation away from disappearing.

Quote from: Lisbeth on April 20, 2007, 12:34:25 PM
A church (or synagogue or mosque or temple or coven or whatever...) is a community you come together with to support one another, grow together, and to help one another seek for meaning in your lives.  It is a place you can seek god and god can seek you in the faces of those around you.  It is a place where you learn to love and to be loved. 

If you do not find these things in the church you attend, then it is the prison that jeri spoke of.  Which are you in?  The building will give you no clues.  Ask whether the truth has set you free, or if the "truth" has made you a prisoner.  By their fruits you will know them.

This is very true. Churches, no matter what their configuration or belief system, are for fellowship. Scripture says to "not forsake the assembling," since we grow stronger when we can be a part of each others' lives.

A lot of us try to live out our lives in isolation. This isn't very easy, but to many of us in the GLBT community, it seems like it's a necessity. One man I know says he goes to church to "recharge." Others go to do the religious thing.

But for me, it's a matter of genuine fellowship. As I spend time with those who share my faith, we can all encourage each other. We can strip off our masks and be open... but that's not always the case is it?

To each their own. Everyone has their own walk and their own journey. No matter what that journey is, we grow stronger when we're in good company.

Quote from: David W. Shelton on April 23, 2007, 06:06:44 AM
But for me, it's a matter of genuine fellowship.

Bah that's what we get at your house on Friday nights :P

Quote from: Susan on April 23, 2007, 06:39:41 AM

Quote from: David W. Shelton on April 23, 2007, 06:06:44 AM
But for me, it's a matter of genuine fellowship.

Bah that's what we get at your house on Friday nights :P

"Where ever two or more are gathered..." for a greater purpose (my paraphrase), "...there I will be also". To be in community with each other IS a greater purpose.

Debbie

Its a feeling of being home, at least for me. I can get by without church, and have for years, but I hope I can find a church that I feel at home again. One where it feels right to pray at.

It was probably the one place as a child that I felt at peace at.

Quote from: debbiej on April 23, 2007, 08:05:13 AM

Quote from: Susan on April 23, 2007, 06:39:41 AM
Bah that's what we get at your house on Friday nights :P

"Where ever two or more are gathered..." for a greater purpose (my paraphrase), "...there I will be also". To be in community with each other IS a greater purpose.

Debbie

It was a inside joke. David has a Sci-fi friday where a bunch of GLBT people gather at his house and watch Sci-fi and movies together :)

Quote from: Susan on April 23, 2007, 08:51:55 AM
It was a inside joke. David has a Sci-fi friday where a bunch of GLBT people gather at his house and watch Sci-fi and movies together :)

It sounds like fun. "Plan 9 From Outerspace"? I attended a Quaker seminary (I'm not Quaker though) where some of us gathered to watch the most violent movies we could find (the Terminator movies were a favorite). It was an interesting contrast to our class on Peace and Justice.

Still - it was mostly for the fellowship and hence the greater purpose that I mentioned.

Debbie

Quote from: Susan on April 23, 2007, 08:51:55 AM
It was a inside joke. David has a Sci-fi friday where a bunch of GLBT people gather at his house and watch Sci-fi and movies together :)

Hee hee.  My church has a Sci-Fi small group that watches the new Battlestar Galactica and talks about the meanings in it.  My son goes to that.

David, I love your signature.

Quote from: Elissa on April 23, 2007, 08:25:17 AM
I can get by without church, and have for years, but I hope I can find a church that I feel at home again. One where it feels right to pray at.

That's why my answer was framed as it was.  If the question had been, "Why do you need god?" or, "Why do you need spirituality?" it would have been different.

Quote from: David W. Shelton on April 23, 2007, 06:06:44 AM

This is very true. Churches, no matter what their configuration or belief system, are for fellowship. Scripture says to "not forsake the assembling," since we grow stronger when we can be a part of each others' lives.

A lot of us try to live out our lives in isolation. This isn't very easy, but to many of us in the GLBT community, it seems like it's a necessity. One man I know says he goes to church to "recharge." Others go to do the religious thing.

But for me, it's a matter of genuine fellowship. As I spend time with those who share my faith, we can all encourage each other. We can strip off our masks and be open... but that's not always the case is it?

To each their own. Everyone has their own walk and their own journey. No matter what that journey is, we grow stronger when we're in good company.

I couldn't agree more.

I attend church to be Church with other people.  (Change in capitalization intentional.)  It's not the building.  It's the sharing.

Chaunte

It is the fellowship within the congregation that has the most meaning in my opinion. And in many cases, the beliefs and doctrines of that particular congregation may have little to do with the spiritual power that group of people may share.

My mother needs the church so that she can let them take her money, so she can be told what to believe, and so that she my feel justified in her guilt.  She finds very little fellowship where she attends.  I wish that I could help her understand that she needs to find a new path for her religious beliefs... for religion and faith should be a happy thing.  Unfortunately for her, her "church" dictates where she may attend services ;)

But back to the power of fellowship and love.  That, my friends, is truly worth finding. If it is real, your personal beliefs may have little bearing on the positive aspects of membership.

(And that's from a person who many would consider a dyed in the wool atheist... but you all know that I'm totally off the wall when it comes to religion and faith)

Cindi

Quote from: Susan on April 23, 2007, 06:39:41 AM

Quote from: David W. Shelton on April 23, 2007, 06:06:44 AM
But for me, it's a matter of genuine fellowship.

Bah that's what we get at your house on Friday nights :P

But I thought the Friday night gatherings were so that the GLBT mafia can plan to take over the world? DAMN! I knew I had it mixed up!

The whole of life as i know it, in it's currently perceptible 3 dimensional form, IS my Church. All of nature. My home. The brain or body of a friend or lover is all the same immeasurably sacred space to me. This must include those i still find fault, hatred, ill, or judgement towards - and i do - I still have a good bit of "de-conditioning" of negative programming to work on....

Mankind seems largely to have lost touch and awareness of the interconnectedness of all things, good, bad, or otherwise. To me, the entire universe could be our church, if we could only see it in ourselves and each other more clearly.

Sincerely,
LoveForever,


Annagirl

Consider going to a Rolling Stones concert and being the only audience member.  It would definitely be cool to have the band to yourself, but it's also nice to be able to share the experience with other people.  Being an audience of one is totally different from rocking out along with thousands of people.  It's also not quite the same when you're the only one there to wave a backlit cell phone.   :D

Joseph

Quote from: Joseph on April 27, 2007, 11:33:33 PM
It's also not quite the same when you're the only one there to wave a backlit cell phone.

whatever happened to lighting a lighter above your head, this cellphone stuff is just silly

Less and less people smoke these days; more and more have a cell phone. Yes, it's silly.

  Nfr

Quote from: Seshatneferw on April 28, 2007, 02:35:28 AM
Less and less people smoke these days; more and more have a cell phone. Yes, it's silly.

  Nfr

bah, when i go to a concert ill bring a lighter even though i dont smoke.  its just the right way to cheer on a song.

I haven't been to a concert for years so when a couple people started waving their cell phones in the air during a 50th anniversary concert at our church last summer it brought back memories and made me laugh at the changes.

I love the concert analogy, Joseph!!!

Debbie

Thank you all for your replies, they help quite a lot. ^*curtsey*

As for the concert analogy, that even drives it home even more. I don't like concerts; The music stinks the crowd is annoying and frankly it is no fun at all.

Amusing, isn't it? The diversity I mean.

Thank you again,
Blessed be,
(=

Quote from: Kimberly on April 28, 2007, 03:30:50 PM
I don't like concerts

Ah, my apologies.  :) I suppose almost every analogy breaks down somewhere.  But yes, the diversity is interesting.  For the analogy to work as intended you must use a subject matter that the person greatly adores, or finds beautiful or praiseworthy.  It could be a band, or an orchestral symphony... or a favorite sports team, a work of art, great actors in a play, a mountain view.... etc.  For such subjects, our time spent with them is not viewed as drudgery, rather we relish those times.  We look forward to them.  We "get to go" view, applaud, soak in, immerse ourselves in the experience, become overwhelmed with beauty, and if possible, tell the subject how wonderful he/she/they/it is.  There are times when doing these things alone is preferable, but as I said before, it is also nice at times to share in the experience with others, to be able to roar with approval as a crowd, rather than with one lone voice.

All the best,
Joseph

Oh, I donno, maybe I require a Church (my own Church, even!) in order to do stuff like, make a lot of money, have a better rationale to get rid of enemies, you know, like that...

Njc

People don't need a church to show their love to God. God's church is all around us. She is anywhere and everywhere and sees all and knows all. So what difference does it make if we worship God at home or at church? I do go to church but its more for a social aspect and because mmy basic beliefs of god are similar to theirs. Unfortunatly I might not be church goer for much longer, because mine is pretty close minded about the GLBT group of people.

What is important is your spirituality in your belief, not the Religion or the building it is practiced in.  A building is a building, and the most ghetto of slums would make as good of a place of worship as the Vatican in Rome would.  All that is important is that you are comfortable, happy, and can relax enough to worship your given religion, or spirituality if you have no "religion".

Church is a wonderful social outlet.  Assuming you find like minded people there, it is a way to get out and meet people.  Seeing the same people every week gives you wonderful opportunities to make new friends.  I know that people often disregard this very important aspect of religious worship.  A sense of belonging and close friendships is key in having a happy and successful life.

Too many of us are ostricized and live alone.  We need that social contact. You can get it in a number of places, but if you can a church that supports your needs, you have found a treasure.

Cindi

my opinion:

a church is a political organization. it tells people how they should or should not live. it asks for donations. it's a force in the local community. it even [some] can tell you which politician you should or shouldn't vote for.
that being said, if you are a [spiritual] person, then what do you need a church for? what purpose does it serve? if you believe that god hears you all the time and that he answers your prayers no matter where you are, no matter what time of day, no matter what the situation, then why would you need a special building to go to once a week to pray? on top of that, this building is essentially useless for the rest of the week. there are millions of homeless people who don't have a roof over their heads at night, yet a giant building stands empty, because 'god' supposedly lives there? does that make any sense?

Quote from: Katia on May 21, 2007, 06:17:14 PM
my opinion:

a church is a political organization. it tells people how they should or should not live. it asks for donations. it's a force in the local community. it even [some] can tell you which politician you should or shouldn't vote for.
that being said, if you are a [spiritual] person, then what do you need a church for? what purpose does it serve? if you believe that god hears you all the time and that he answers your prayers no matter where you are, no matter what time of day, no matter what the situation, then why would you need a special building to go to once a week to pray? on top of that, this building is essentially useless for the rest of the week. there are millions of homeless people who don't have a roof over their heads at night, yet a giant building stands empty, because 'god' supposedly lives there? does that make any sense?

Let me publicly apologize to you, Katia... I had initially deleted this post since I took it as trolling. Susan and a few others disagreed with me... and I'm glad they did. On careful reading, it's clear that I was wrong.

Please accept my apologies for deleting this post, which was just fine the way it is.

Now... my response to the post:

Any church that has a building also has the responsibility of using it at every opportunity by taking care of those who need help. I agree wholeheartedly that for a church to remain empty during the week is a complete waste, and thankfully, many churches both large and small use their buildings throughout the week to serve those who are in need.

Quote from: Katia on May 21, 2007, 06:17:14 PM
my opinion:

if you are a [spiritual] person, then what do you need a church for? what purpose does it serve? if you believe that god hears you all the time and that he answers your prayers no matter where you are, no matter what time of day, no matter what the situation, then why would you need a special building to go to once a week to pray? on top of that, this building is essentially useless for the rest of the week. there are millions of homeless people who don't have a roof over their heads at night, yet a giant building stands empty, because 'god' supposedly lives there? does that make any sense?

Very good point Katia. I also feel that if you believe in any God, He can be present to us in more than one way. An example is that you can be present on the phone when someone picks it up on the other end, but you are present in a different way when you are there in person.  But my observation is that a church is just a place where like-minded Christians gather together to worship, praise and sing to God together. It helps build up their faith.

An Excerpt from The "Scholars' Translation" of the Gospel of Thomas
by Stephen Patterson and Marvin Meyer

...

Quote
3 Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is within you and it is outside you.

...

I believe this unofficial, unsanctioned passage makes it evident that you do not need a church.

This gospel never made it into the bible, supposedly it threatened the integrity of the church.

That's an interesting quote Jessica.  It is important to realize that the Bible was assembled from the available books by a council organized by the Roman emperor Constantine, who was not a Christian.  This was centuries after Christ's death.

There were many that were left out for who knows what reasons.

Cindi

Yes. 

Interestingly, from the research I have done, anything that threatened the institutional power of the church, including most mentions of reincarnation (The reason I began researched all of this in the first place), were not included.  I can post a ton of information on this subject.

I believe the term is called fellowship.  People like to be around those that love them and will support them.

Quote from: David W. Shelton on May 21, 2007, 06:56:28 PM


Let me publicly apologize to you, Katia... I had initially deleted this post since I took it as trolling. Susan and a few others disagreed with me... and I'm glad they did. On careful reading, it's clear that I was wrong.

Please accept my apologies for deleting this post, which was just fine the way it is.

Now... my response to the post:

Any church that has a building also has the responsibility of using it at every opportunity by taking care of those who need help. I agree wholeheartedly that for a church to remain empty during the week is a complete waste, and thankfully, many churches both large and small use their buildings throughout the week to serve those who are in need.

no need to apologize, david.  i'm very aware that sometimes i come across as [very] self-opinionated, yet my post was only a [personal opinion].  thank you.

I saw a new church today driving home, "A Church for Whoever", now there is a name for you.

Sarah L.

I was raised in a very strict Catholic household.  I even went to Catholic School during my school years and was taught that I needed to go to church at least every Sunday, for God lived there.  I did go to church every Sunday until recently (about six or eight months ago).  However, I have to admit that I don't go to church anymore, for I realized that they had also taught me that God is omnipresent. He isn't only in a church! He's everywhere! Don't we pray to God wherever we might be? Even in our own homes?
I don't believe (anymore) that one must go to church to believe in and/or pray to God.  I have known far too many people who happen to attend church regularly (more than once a week), lead undesirable lives, and are not particularly (what you would consider) good people.  IMO, just because one attends church doesn't guarantee you are a good person, does it?

tink :icon_chick:

A church is not a building. It is a body of people coming together in one accord to learn from each other and hold each other accountable to the faith they all share. Early churches used to meet in people's houses, and they would switch locations often to avoid being caught by the Romans, who would persecute them if their activity was known. The only place I know of where God's presence was in a specific building was the Holy of Holies in Solomon's temple in Jerusalem, and the temple rebuilt in its place under Nehemiah. This was because it was before Christ came to earth as our High Priest, so the people needed a priest to connect them to God. Now, believers have access to Christ through prayer, and can indeed pray anywhere and have access to the Heavenly Father. As I said, a church is for learning and encouragement, as well as coming together for corporate worship.