Susan's Place Transgender Resources

My doctor told me to take double dose of estradiol because my T level was still a little high.  Rather than increase my spirol prescription.

My question to you guys is, since I am on double the estradiol and my estrogen levels are normal is there anything I should look out for.  As for having too much estrogen?  This is something I forgot to ask my doctor, just started the new routine last night.

Exactly what are the T & E levels? Interpretion of E levels seems pretty broad from what I have seen on the net. Some for E are amazingly low IMHO.  T seems to be fairly understood. Either typical female or typical male. The problem with E is what is right. Too much is not so good. Not enough, not much feminizing even with it in "typical" female range, which is all over the map depending on the female, her age, where she is her cycle and if she is pregnant.

THe risk factors associated for high estrogen levels are well documented on the net. The top ones are blood clots and liver damage which takes a LOT of pill taking. From talking to several pre-op T-girls endos are playing it really safe these days compared to typical regimes of 10-20 or more years ago

Not upping the spiro makes sense depending on what your dosage currently is and other health factors. Unfortunately in the USA the anti-androgen choices are limited.

Many factors like hereditary conditions, age, health status, alcohol consumption, etc all play an important role in determining the incidence of estrogen side effects.

I am sure your OK, otherwise you physician would have not increased the does.

Quote from: Laura91 on September 06, 2012, 06:55:02 PM
Well, sometimes if you have a less than competent doctor that isn't always the case. The last idiots that I went to basically let me dictate the dose to them and I made the stupid, stupid mistake of saying "oh sure! double the dose." and I almost had a stroke, heart palpitations, etc. So, myself and the dumb doctor were both at fault.

+1!! The endos at the callen lorde tg clinic in manhattan are notorious for letting you dictate what your dose is (not always, but I've heard tell since they seem to have different doctors there all the time.

Well my endo is pretty good, he explained the situation to me and why he was upping my E a little but not my spirol.  I see him again in 6 months!  If I am having strange symptoms I would drop it down to 1 pill myself and then call him and explain my situation..

My primary concern is elevating testosterone levels by taking too much E, but I have not seen anything documented on it.  Just from heresay...

Thanks for the information by the way!  Especially the first hand account on heart palpatations.  I will keep an eye on that for sure.

i'll hafta keep an eye on that as well as the goal is to balance it out.

Though I would consider 12 to be miniscule considering male testosterone levels are through the roof by comparison.

I might go back down to 1 pill of E Even in the 2 days I have been following the regimen my musk is turning more masculine.

I wish there were at home E and T testers!  I am honestly scared of it spiking my T levels and reverting my progress.

how does lack of sleep effect hormones?

If you have access to laboratory testing, a serum estradiol level of about 125-200 pg/ml about one-third to one-half the normal female mid-cycle peak is often considered ideal, at least for the first two years or so of feminizing therapy.

There also are mouth swap test kits available that you can mail in. THe problem with them from what I read is you need a baseline to compare it to because the readings do differ. Depending on what state you live in (mass confusion for me ;D) there are places on the net where you can order up a blood test. A small handfull of states won't let you, like NJ and I think NY for sure. They use Lab-Corps testing labs

I gave up trying to get my blood level T level readings down where the doctor wanted. I started off with pretty low levels but taking the "normal" dose of spiro for a year did nothing whatsoever to the levels (actually they rose slightly) but I clearly saw major changes to my sex drive etc. After I got on e the same thing happened, zero change to my T levels but after 6 months I went from flat chested to close to B cup breasts. The doctor scratched his head and said "I guess it's silly to test T levels with you, clearly this is working even though it shouldn't be.." I think my levels are hovering around 200 but not sure, I really don't care, I go by how I feel.

Honestly it's hard to say if "2X the dose" is a lot or a little given this sites rules for posting dosages. If it's 2X "the normal dose given to TS people" then yes I would be concerned. I'm a firm believer in not rushing this process. Changing you body at a cellular level is rough on you body and there is no reason to try to make this happen overnight. I think the "traffic cone" breasts I have seen some trans people end up with results from ramping up the hormones too fast.  Everyone reacts differently to these meds and to expect your body to react like "normal" isn't a good plan IMHO.

Yea its twice as much day.

I was receiving many changes as well, and he noticed.  Since I learned in another thread Estrogen can be used as a T-Blocker if taken in a higher dose I understand how it would work with spiro. 

Now that I know my T Level might spike a little(counter productive but not insanely) I feel way less nervous.

I am gonna stay with the doctors orders, now that I understand some of these aspects and see what happens in 6 months! 

My E levels are already in the 200 range.

Unfortunately, I do live in NY where everything is illegal.  I am surprised wearing a skirt with hairy legs isn't illegal given all of the insanity in NY State legal system.

Edited to remove dosage

What E level is needed for feminization seems to more of an opinion. It seems many endos lean towards very conservative 200 typical older female range. From Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormone_replacement_therapy_%28male-to-female%29#Hormone_levels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormone_replacement_therapy_%28male-to-female%29#Hormone_levels) Optimal pre-castration range is 400-800 pg/mL. Mine tend to hover around 600.

Quote from: JoanneB on September 08, 2012, 11:40:56 AM
What E level is needed for feminization seems to more of an opinion. It seems many endos lean towards very conservative 200 typical older female range. From Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormone_replacement_therapy_%28male-to-female%29#Hormone_levels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormone_replacement_therapy_%28male-to-female%29#Hormone_levels) Optimal pre-castration range is 400-800 pg/mL. Mine tend to hover around 600.

I suppose they are all afraid of litigation in the event of a life threatening event resulting from their prescriptions. Every body is different, some with more and other with less reactive estrogen/testosterone receptors.

Definitely, an endo that starts low rather than high is doing a better job in my opinion.

So far I have had no ill effects of Estro or Spirol.  But I know a girl who can only take T-Blockers, when she starts taking estrogen her body seems to go crazy and grow tons of hair.   And she still suffers ill effects of potassium poisoning if she has even 1 kiwi.

Me on the other hand can eat an entire bowl of kiwis and a banana on the side with no ill effects from spirol.    Not that I would..

Well ok I did eat an entire bowl of kiwis once -_-, it looked good, it tasted good and I couldnt help myself ok.. OK!

Hmmm do those New Zealanders know?  ;)

Suddenly I can't eat cantelope, they cause insta-bar->-bleeped-<-e! Don't know if it's hormone related or just a general allergy that suddenly cropped up.

Might be hormonal O-o, wouldn't be the first time I have known many girls(born bio) who tend to have changing tastes.

Me on the other hand... while I never ate kiwis much before now if I see a bowl of them I cant help myself.

I wish hormones made me hate spicy food, sometimes I eat this stuff that sets off at thermo nuclear reaction in my tummy tum tum and yet I sit there sweating with a smile on my face knowing the hell that hath erupted inside of me tasted so good   ;D

That is an insane amount of estradiol..

Quote from: Stephe on September 08, 2012, 09:23:32 PM
That is an insane amount of estradiol..

It depends, people's bodies vary a lot, which is why it's better to be under a doctors care (when did I become one of those people who started touting the party line?? Gotta get my mojo back).

Note: Please remember to not cite specific dosages.  What might be appropriate for one person, might be damaging to a self-medicator.

Quote from: JoanneB on September 08, 2012, 11:40:56 AM
What E level is needed for feminization seems to more of an opinion. It seems many endos lean towards very conservative 200 typical older female range. From Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormone_replacement_therapy_%28male-to-female%29#Hormone_levels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormone_replacement_therapy_%28male-to-female%29#Hormone_levels) Optimal pre-castration range is 400-800 pg/mL. Mine tend to hover around 600.

My doc keeps his MTF patients E2 level in the 120-150 pg/ml range... with 200 pg/ml as the upper end max. Anything over say 300 pg/ml, if it stays there consistently over time, can put you at risk for blood clots, stroke, and other serious health conditions (unless you have some sort of other hormonal or physiological issue that makes such a high-extended E2 level necessary).

Quote from: Rita on September 06, 2012, 11:19:58 PM
My primary concern is elevating testosterone levels by taking too much E, but I have not seen anything documented on it.  Just from heresay...

It's well documented that the body's balancing act is in play with hormones as well.

Ever heard of body builders that get "bitch tits". This happens when too much T is injected and the body converts to the opposite hormone to protect it from damage.

Jenn

I think a good analogy is the boiling a live frog one. If done slowly the body doesn't react in a way we don't want it to.  If I  was going to double my E, I would be doing it over a period of a month or so, not just start taking 2X the dosage the next day. I think too many people want to try to force this second puberty to happen over a period of 6 months to a year. My goal is to take the minimum amount of meds that produce results.  If it takes 2-3 years to get the "final results", that's more of a normal time period for changes like this to occur. I don't think the "shock treatment" plans are a good idea.

Quote from: Stephe on September 09, 2012, 03:24:46 PM
I think a good analogy is the boiling a live frog one. If done slowly the body doesn't react in a way we don't want it to.  If I  was going to double my E, I would be doing it over a period of a month or so, not just start taking 2X the dosage the next day. I think too many people want to try to force this second puberty to happen over a period of 6 months to a year. My goal is to take the minimum amount of meds that produce results.  If it takes 2-3 years to get the "final results", that's more of a normal time period for changes like this to occur. I don't think the "shock treatment" plans are a good idea.

Stephe is correct! Any medications that will make a drastic change in one's physiology or mental wiring have to be ramped up slowly under medical supervision just like some of the anti-anxiety meds have to be because they are psychotropic drugs that change brain wiring. I have known two MtF people who knew better but desiring to see quicker results they took excessive amounts of estrogen and gave themselves deep vein thromboesis ( blood clots), one had a stroke the other a heart attack and died. The other is learning to walk and talk again with her entire left side sagging and dragging. There is no cure for willful stupidity, you have received a lot of good advice in this thread, use it wisely!