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We were at a local LBGTQ bar and having a good time...then my anxieties kicked in and caused me some problems.

Neverminding "my" unique issues, one of the big aggravators of the evening was pure, insane jealousy. Several of the T-girls had exceptionally good figures (think "flat stomach! OMG  >:( " ), good posture and walking skills (in high heels, no less!  >:( )...and charming personalities.

Then there were the cis-girls. Lesbians? Maybe. Bi? Maybe. Cute, pretty, LITTLE? Yes! OMG they flexed, bent, and twisted their various major body parts in such a cute, pretty, and LITTLE cis-girl way...I felt huge and out-of-place next to them.   :embarrassed:

Then I had a CD lady talk to me about how I needed "over the top" makeup, and that I had a seriously "guy" face. I know that--and I know that my makeup isn't superb, but hey it works (for me)...and I do appreciate any honest feedback...but after that and seeing so many attractive women--cis and trans--sort of encouraged me to dissociate and leave early.

Wondering if others have had this, and how one deals with it?

Wow,  felt the same but never had anyone say anything so hurtfull.  My recommendation is go again on a different night and rebuild your confidence.  If it happens again, find another pad to crash.  Could just be a place where all the snobs congregate. 

I am rather inexperienced to being public, but when I am, I just focus on being me and enjoying the outing.  Jerks are just part of the game, and I consider them just 'traffic' on my way to achieving euphoria!

I've had similar experiences. Early on one time I was invited to a party at a friend of mine who is a hair-dresser and she had invited a bunch of her colleges. They all looked like freaking supermodels and I did, well...not. I had a terrible time until I decided to get drunk enough to not care. I like settings with fewer people anyway, and if I'm lucky someone tries to start an argument with me, which usually means I crush them and feel a little bit better about myself.

I always stay away from LBGTQ places.

Quote from: MariaMx on September 08, 2012, 11:58:44 AM
I've had similar experiences. Early on one time I was invited to a party at a friend of mine who is a hair-dresser and she had invited a bunch of her colleges. They all looked like freaking supermodels and I did, well...not. I had a terrible time until I decided to get drunk enough to not care. I like settings with fewer people anyway, and if I'm lucky someone tries to start an argument with me, which usually means I crush them and feel a little bit better about myself.

I always stay away from LBGTQ places.

I've heard that "beautiful people" will often get a wing-man who isn't beautiful, so that he/she looks even better...what do you think of that? Think it's common?

Quote from: Beth Andrea on September 08, 2012, 12:01:57 PM
I've heard that "beautiful people" will often get a wing-man who isn't beautiful, so that he/she looks even better...what do you think of that? Think it's common?

I don't know, but I certainly wouldn't want to have a friend like that. I usually don't have much in common with the really good looking people and I don't go to the same places they go to. I have one friend who is supermodel material but she is one of the nicest people I've ever met.

Beth,

I have had only one experience like that. With a number of my cd friends outside of the the LGBTQ area at a straight bar, there was a married couple of a friend of mine, I went to the bar for an order and the wife was there all of a sudden was touching my hairpiece & saying she could do a lot better with the wig & adjusting it saying to call her so she could work with me on it, me being a Taurus patiently listened, got my break, left the bitch & made sure I wasn't near her again.

We don't need over the top make up (that may be for the cd person you met), we need what reflects us, makes us comfortable and blend in with other cis women. In each of our cases the intruder was discourteous.

In the LGBTQ bar scene, cis, cd & trans a great gene pool in the young ones coming up behind us, revel in it you are one of them. Do not back away and shorten your night you deserve to be there. If there is music & dancing, if you make eye contact with a lady or they smile at you, smile or you smile first, give em a wink. Especially in the lesbian bars while dancing with my wife, sometimes other ladies cut in and start dancing with us. It is a lot of fun. Let your femme beauty override the anxieties with a positive attitude, let your personality shine, go with the flow, have a good time and be Happy.
Hugs
Jamie

Beth Andrea, your beauty comes not from your figure, walking skills posture, cuteness, littleness, make-up etc.

Your beauty comes from being you.

You're a special and fascinating human being. Anyone who is lucky enough to be in your presence has been blessed. Anyone so blessed who doesn't appreciate you is missing out and doesn't deserve to know you.

Your looks, figure, face, and body size are just right for you because they are yours and you are beautiful. You never need to let anybody or any situation make you feel you need to apologize for how you look. It is just right.

Women are not beautiful because of their faces and figures. Women are beautiful because they are women, because they are unique, and because they are fascinating and proud.

You know how special you are. None of those others from last night has anything on you. Please remember that.

Quote from: Beth Andrea on September 08, 2012, 11:31:46 AM
We were at a local LBGTQ bar and having a good time...then my anxieties kicked in and caused me some problems.

Neverminding "my" unique issues, one of the big aggravators of the evening was pure, insane jealousy. Several of the T-girls had exceptionally good figures (think "flat stomach! OMG  >:( " ), good posture and walking skills (in high heels, no less!  >:( )...and charming personalities.

Then there were the cis-girls. Lesbians? Maybe. Bi? Maybe. Cute, pretty, LITTLE? Yes! OMG they flexed, bent, and twisted their various major body parts in such a cute, pretty, and LITTLE cis-girl way...I felt huge and out-of-place next to them.   :embarrassed:

Then I had a CD lady talk to me about how I needed "over the top" makeup, and that I had a seriously "guy" face. I know that--and I know that my makeup isn't superb, but hey it works (for me)...and I do appreciate any honest feedback...but after that and seeing so many attractive women--cis and trans--sort of encouraged me to dissociate and leave early.

Wondering if others have had this, and how one deals with it?

Nobody has the right to say to you that you have a "seriously guy face." That was totally outline and offensive.

If I had been next to you, I would have said something like: "Oh, Beth, do not pay ani attention to this guy, he had to many drinks and he is not seeing straight." So, why I am telling you this, because my dear, like my papi used to said: "Peky, no matter where you are, you have to ask yourself: "what are you prepared to do." 

Having said this ^^ in your support, by your own description it seems you brought out all of this on yourself by sending out the "wrong" vibrations. As a woman your task is to radiate your own inner beauty and never compare and/or admire the other bitches no matter what. A cardinal rule is never to ask for anybody's opinions about you, and when freely offered, reject as soon as they begin.

I found that more often than not, people start with: "I know is not of my business.., or If you let me tell...etc" as innocently disguise so they can insult you with impunity.

Quoteit seems you brought out all of this on yourself by sending out the "wrong" vibrations. As a woman your task is to radiate your own inner beauty and never compare and/or admire the other bitches no matter what. A cardinal rule is never to ask for anybody's opinions about you, and when freely offered, reject as soon as they begin.

I understand the first part, I do send out the wrong vibrations. That's part of my other "unique" issues. I am working on those, too (in fact, that's one of the reasons I go out at all...normally I stay home and drink alone). Long story, but yeah, I'm working on those vibrations.

The opinions were freely offered, and I think the person was just being honest, brutally so, but honest. Normally these things wouldn't have bothered me (at least, not immediately) but they became icing on the cake once I started dissociating.

Quote from: agfrommd on September 08, 2012, 01:03:13 PM
Beth Andrea, your beauty comes not from your figure, walking skills posture, cuteness, littleness, make-up etc.

Your beauty comes from being you.

You're a special and fascinating human being. Anyone who is lucky enough to be in your presence has been blessed. Anyone so blessed who doesn't appreciate you is missing out and doesn't deserve to know you.

Your looks, figure, face, and body size are just right for you because they are yours and you are beautiful. You never need to let anybody or any situation make you feel you need to apologize for how you look. It is just right.

Women are not beautiful because of their faces and figures. Women are beautiful because they are women, because they are unique, and because they are fascinating and proud.

You know how special you are. None of those others from last night has anything on you. Please remember that.

Thank you. Logically I know this, but on an emotional level I don't. There is a HUGE separation between those two elements of my "self." I seem to have discovered a rather deep source of jealousy...Hmm, I wonder if being jealous stems from insecurity?

Quote from: Jamiep on September 08, 2012, 01:02:47 PM
Beth,

I have had only one experience like that. With a number of my cd friends outside of the the LGBTQ area at a straight bar, there was a married couple of a friend of mine, I went to the bar for an order and the wife was there all of a sudden was touching my hairpiece & saying she could do a lot better with the wig & adjusting it saying to call her so she could work with me on it, me being a Taurus patiently listened, got my break, left the bitch & made sure I wasn't near her again.

We don't need over the top make up (that may be for the cd person you met), we need what reflects us, makes us comfortable and blend in with other cis women. In each of our cases the intruder was discourteous.

In the LGBTQ bar scene, cis, cd & trans a great gene pool in the young ones coming up behind us, revel in it you are one of them. Do not back away and shorten your night you deserve to be there. If there is music & dancing, if you make eye contact with a lady or they smile at you, smile or you smile first, give em a wink. Especially in the lesbian bars while dancing with my wife, sometimes other ladies cut in and start dancing with us. It is a lot of fun. Let your femme beauty override the anxieties with a positive attitude, let your personality shine, go with the flow, have a good time and be Happy.
Hugs
Jamie

Thanks Jamie...I am working on this, it will take time. Hopefully (if I read your post correctly), when I am able to "go with the flow, have a good time" this will help me overcome a lot (if not all) these sorts of problems?

I sure hope so.  :)

Quote from: Beth Andrea on September 08, 2012, 12:01:57 PM
I've heard that "beautiful people" will often get a wing-man who isn't beautiful, so that he/she looks even better...what do you think of that? Think it's common?

Here's what Wikipedia had to say on the subject:

QuoteWingman is a role that a person may take when a friend needs support with approaching potential partners. A wingman is someone who is on the "inside" and is used to help someone with relationships. There seem to be sex differences such that females' friends help them avoid undesirable potential partners, while males' friends help them attract desirable potential mates.

Female wingmen protect each other from uncomfortable, rude, dangerous, or unwanted attention. They are like the "real" wingmen in aerial combat - survivability and mission success rate both go up dramatically when both lead pilot and wingman are at the top of their game. Its not about looks, its about personality. The more sensitive, more situationally aware, and best defender is usually the wingwoman, and the one with more courage than sense is the lead pilot.

P.S. air combat studies show that the optimal configuration for air battles is threesomes, not pairs. They provide perfect overlapping of each other's zones of control and can respond fluidly to any situation. (and if one needs to return to base, they are still a safe fighting pair out there). The reason the navy doesn't use 3 for most missions is that three isn't THAT much better than two, so they get more bang for the buck sending out 50% more sorties by using twosomes.

 I am very sorry that happened. That must have pierced like a kinfe. All of us have insecurities.  I am sure most of us have had those moments.  Some people can be so rude especially GM.  Many do not even know they are hurting you. Its just the way they communicate. One thing I have always done when something happens like that is to give a big warm smile and give a snappy humorus response right back. Like, " Hey no sh** Sherlock" You would be surprised at the power of a warm smile and some humor. 

If it helps at all, cis women feel exactly the same way, nobody ever seems to appreciate the beauty of THEMSELVES rather than how they compare to people around them.

I have had the pleasure of being on a girls night out on many occasions and hearing my friends do nothing but despair about how everyone else is prettier/thinner/better somehow than they are....while at the same time bitching about them for being too slutty/too skinny/too flirty. I never really noticed...I was looking at the boys :D

Just focus on yourself and stop comparing and I guarantee you'll feel a lot better about yourself. If that doesn't work you can tell yourself that there's bound to be somebody in the room who's jealous of YOU! Trust me, there probably is.

Madeline,

"Wingman" in the sense I've heard it used (in social settings) is more like, "You take the ugly girl this time, and I'll take her pretty friend...next time I'll take the less-desirable one..." or some combination of such.

The "less attractive partner" is surmised by me from reading studies that demonstrate that women who are not super-models make the best cosmetics sales people...because the customer doesn't feel threatened by someone more beautiful than themselves.

As you might have guessed...my social survival skills have two basic settings:  Casual, occasionally smiling...and fleeing in terror. It's just a matter of finding a reasonable middle ground.

:)

I've experienced similar feelings, but that was really out of the blue and hurtful. It's hard being around people who naturally have the body you want. For me, a t guy, I've had trouble around really femme girls lately because it reminds me of trying to be feminine, and failing.

It's cliche to say, but you're beautiful too. Appreciating other people's beauty only adds to that. You don't 'need' a particular kind of makeup to look more like a woman - people need to adjust their assumptions to look more like you.

Quote from: Jeatyn on September 08, 2012, 04:23:10 PM
If it helps at all, cis women feel exactly the same way, nobody ever seems to appreciate the beauty of THEMSELVES rather than how they compare to people around them.

I have had the pleasure of being on a girls night out on many occasions and hearing my friends do nothing but despair about how everyone else is prettier/thinner/better somehow than they are....while at the same time bitching about them for being too slutty/too skinny/too flirty. I never really noticed...I was looking at the boys :D

Just focus on yourself and stop comparing and I guarantee you'll feel a lot better about yourself. If that doesn't work you can tell yourself that there's bound to be somebody in the room who's jealous of YOU! Trust me, there probably is.

Man, is that ever true. Every time I was on a girls night (which I spent staring at guys thinking "how can I walk like that guy?" or "His chest, his arms, his beard and I'd be one hot puppy") I heard so many of my female friends talking about how ever other girl there was way better than them. The real kicker? I was with one group and noticed they were jealous of a table across the room. Turns out, some of the folks from my thesis class were there so I walked over to say hey and see how they were. One of the girls there was telling her friend that she wanted to be as perfect and sexy as one of the girls I had come with.  :laugh:

Though, that CD had no reason to say such rude things to you. Try going back on another night, you may have more luck. But, I am willing to bet there were people there jealous of you. Seems that most people only see their worst features and not their best. Even more common is that people forget that actually, someone may love the features they think are terrible.

As for the CD, how rude! 

I would be tempted to ask if they knew the name of the song from the movie "Better Than Chocolate."
"Which one was that?"
"I'm Not A F****ing Drag Queen", smile and walk away. 

I have Lesbian friends who don't like going to Lesbian clubs that much because they don't like the attitude of some women too. 

My attitude is now, all women are beautiful because they are women, unless they make themselves unattractive.  That comes from within too, despite how they look from the outside.

Karen.

I went into a major funk for what I believed were the similar reasons of jealousy/envy during our TG groups Christmas party last year. I was in the midst of all these other women, some prettier, some not. All seemingly in touch with their bodies, dancing, enjoying being themselves. Many of these women made amazing advances over the past year or so, making that fantasic leap going full-time, some have been for ages.

I was jealous, felt somewhat ashamed I wasn't as good. The old feelings from 30 years of "just some guy in a dress" started comming back. All this after several months of being totally amazed at how I have been passing and being accepted as a woman as I started living more and more part-time as a female.

The real issue came down to all or nothing thinking. In the short term there is no way I can transition no matter how much I want to knowing this time I can have some success. So what the F*&%! am I thinking??? Stop this craziness, get back to planet joyless and just keep on plodding away as a male. You have a ton of responsibilities you agreed to take on.

If you compare yourself to others, you will always wind up on the loosing end. We are our own worse (or best?) critics. We know our soft spots and weaknesses all too well. In my case it is difficult to feel good about my high points since all my life has been a big sham having lived a lie.

You can only compare yourself to you. When you looked in the mirror that one last time before leaving the house, what did you think and feel? What do see/feel compared to a year ago, or even 3 months? Embrace those positive feelings and hold on to them.

What ultimately matters is how you feel about yourself. Attitude is the one and only key ingredient to passing. The rest is window dressing. Besides being only 5'11" now compared to my 6ft height of 30 years ago, the only thing that has changed which allowed me to see and importantly believe I do pass is attitude.

QuoteYou can only compare yourself to you. When you looked in the mirror that one last time before leaving the house, what did you think and feel? What do see/feel compared to a year ago, or even 3 months? Embrace those positive feelings and hold on to them.

That night: I felt pretty good about myself...I didn't think even once that I was ugly, unattractive, etc. I was ready for the night!

3 months ago (June): Started going full-time, with name change and all. Craved it, demanded it. Did *not* want to spend another day as a man (-ish). No matter how I turned out--Hollywood model, or man-in-a-dress--being a woman is everything!

A year ago: Can barely remember anything from then. Severe mental anguish, depression, etc. Not here now, things are looking up!

Thanks, JoanneB!!

*hugs*
*kisses*
^-^

Quote from: Beth Andrea on September 08, 2012, 07:16:02 PM
Madeline,

"Wingman" in the sense I've heard it used (in social settings) is more like, "You take the ugly girl this time, and I'll take her pretty friend...next time I'll take the less-desirable one..." or some combination of such.

Yes, that is the wingman principle of shallow men in action. It is the role of wingwomen, on the other hand, to spot and shoot down those shallow men, keeping the female fighting twosome or threesome in formation until the decent guys or gals who aren't shallow, toasted, dangerous, or deranged come within range - and can be acquired. ;)

Quote
The "less attractive partner" is surmised by me from reading studies that demonstrate that women who are not super-models make the best cosmetics sales people...because the customer doesn't feel threatened by someone more beautiful than themselves.

That's right, beauty models/paragons and beauty instructors/recruiters are two very different roles.
However, it is very rare that the super-model is not super-enhanced and possessing of super-attitude, super-skills, and super-poise. So if they are smart and flexible they can tone down their enhancements, attitude, skills, and presence to blend in when they need to make others feel at ease (instead of at awe).

I suspect you have the model's "curse" - you have distinctive features that are one of the key elements of great beauty. You can't help draw the eye (and often times, the envy) of other women. It may take you a while to gain the confidence and experience to be able to draw down the radiance when you want to, since you don't realize yet that you are radiating beauty.  Even if you don't appreciate your own features, there are probably plenty of people who do. And catty people that will assume you are haughty and want to take you down a notch.

Quote
As you might have guessed...my social survival skills have two basic settings:  Casual, occasionally smiling...and fleeing in terror. It's just a matter of finding a reasonable middle ground.

:)

I love reading about your social adventures and trials. You inspire others without even knowing it.

My social survival settings are: funny and annoying, overtalkative and annoying, and completely invisible. That table isn't a table, that's Madeline's forehead. Can you tell I have a confidence problem of my own? :D

OMG Maddie, you just crack me up!

:laugh:

QuoteI suspect you have the model's "curse" - you have distinctive features that are one of the key elements of great beauty. You can't help draw the eye (and often times, the envy) of other women. It may take you a while to gain the confidence and experience to be able to draw down the radiance when you want to, since you don't realize yet that you are radiating beauty.  Even if you don't appreciate your own features, there are probably plenty of people who do. And catty people that will assume you are haughty and want to take you down a notch.

LOL...well we shall see. Hopefully we'll meet up in a couple weeks and you can show me how to "draw down the radiance", since you're so full of it yourself...LOL omg, did I really just say that?!

Portland is a big place, I've heard...

Quote from: Beth Andrea on September 09, 2012, 12:34:12 PM
OMG Maddie, you just crack me up!

:laugh:

LOL...well we shall see. Hopefully we'll meet up in a couple weeks and you can show me how to "draw down the radiance", since you're so full of it yourself...LOL omg, did I really just say that?!

Portland is a big place, I've heard...

You just made me chortle.
1. Yes, I always seem to be full of something!
2. Yes, Portland is a big place, which is why my head fits in it.
3. Can't wait to meet you sister!

ok, can't say I have had any experience like that..! not to question your sexuality OP, but are you sure you envied their bodies, or is it also a sexual attraction your experiencing ? Your description of what you feel makes me think that. But no offense to you either way ! (Sorry I do speak my mind from time to time).

Don't actually feel jealous of women, in general, in fact that walk, and posture, is some thing we all should have, its just 101 knowing how to carry yourself as a woman. (In this case) also appealing towards people you see as potential friends and partners. also people giving comments like that was actually pretty rude.

Your every bit a woman as they are, we all have different body shapes, just learn to accept your body as its changing if your transitioning, and ways to improve your overall looks, if you think you need a make over :)

Some times I see other women and think "yeah she looks pretty good" so you cant help but wonder what it is they use, or what they did to get a certain good looking skin, or make-up effect. Your a woman ! chat and ask them. Women do this all the time, "how do you do that - what do you use ?!" type things.

Get over the body shapes hang over, their really is nothing to worry about, and especially for the fact that, were all different we all have different "shapes" but also men and women alike do not all go for one certain type, we all have a "type" that we go for !

Catherine <3

Quotenot to question your sexuality OP, but are you sure you envied their bodies, or is it also a sexual attraction your experiencing ?

It's a bit of both.

I envy bodies that are luscious (clearly understanding the "body" and "mind" are two different things...but from 20' away one cannot sense the mind), and sexually, well they're HOT. (Not as a former male; indeed "that part" doesn't even bother a mention)

In theory, one should find any given person just as physically attractive as the next...after all, everyone has the same parts, more or less. (Of course, given the realities of "preference" and/or "orientation"). But the reality is that given a safe distance, the body is the first part one sees...and a "hot" body is much better visually than a "not so hot" body.

imho

Now, as to what to DO with said body...there's a thread elsewhere about fantasies etc. when one sees others at a distance...very interesting read.

Well, that was an awful thing she said to you.  It makes me wonder if she was jealous of you.  Some people insult others to make themselves look or feel better.  Is it possible that was what was happening here?

Quotethere's bound to be somebody in the room who's jealous of YOU!

- Agree!

One thing I've noticed about cis women is that they always compliment each other.  They usually find something like...I love your ring, what a great purse, that hair color looks great on you.  The insults get hurled behind the other woman's back.  Or maybe I just know a lot of hypocritical women.

Quote from: JulieC. on September 09, 2012, 03:59:22 PM
One thing I've noticed about cis women is that they always compliment each other.  They usually find something like...I love your ring, what a great purse, that hair color looks great on you.  The insults get hurled behind the other woman's back.  Or maybe I just know a lot of hypocritical women.

I've noticed this in pretty much every female social group I've been a part of, it's really weird o_o

Quote from: Beth Andrea on September 08, 2012, 11:31:46 AM
We were at a local LBGTQ bar and having a good time...then my anxieties kicked in and caused me some problems.

Neverminding "my" unique issues, one of the big aggravators of the evening was pure, insane jealousy. Several of the T-girls had exceptionally good figures (think "flat stomach! OMG  >:( " ), good posture and walking skills (in high heels, no less!  >:( )...and charming personalities.

Then there were the cis-girls. Lesbians? Maybe. Bi? Maybe. Cute, pretty, LITTLE? Yes! OMG they flexed, bent, and twisted their various major body parts in such a cute, pretty, and LITTLE cis-girl way...I felt huge and out-of-place next to them.   :embarrassed:

Then I had a CD lady talk to me about how I needed "over the top" makeup, and that I had a seriously "guy" face. I know that--and I know that my makeup isn't superb, but hey it works (for me)...and I do appreciate any honest feedback...but after that and seeing so many attractive women--cis and trans--sort of encouraged me to dissociate and leave early.

Wondering if others have had this, and how one deals with it?

I thought her comments were quite rude as well. I mean who is she to comment, she looks more mannish than you ever could even if you dressed like a guy! I did not talk with her the rest of the night after she made that comment, and I told one of the other ladies how rude I thought she was for saying that to you. You are not huge btw. You looked quite nice. I am sorry you felt so bad.

In my experience too many transexuals are too busy being jealous at each other, instead of making a life of their own and that's terrible

That's one of the reasons I tend to avoid (LBG)T-meetings nowadays. Actually, the only exception I currently make, is for a monthly evening organized by a friend of mine, because I want to support her efforts

Quote from: Arike on September 09, 2012, 06:10:34 PM
In my experience too many transexuals are too busy being jealous at each other, instead of making a life of their own and that's terrible

That's one of the reasons I tend to avoid (LBG)T-meetings nowadays. Actually, the only exception I currently make, is for a monthly evening organized by a friend of mine, because I want to support her efforts

In my opinion, there were no transsexuals at the bar that Beth should have been jealous of. She is far more feminine than the other women there.

Quote from: Brooke777 on September 09, 2012, 06:17:30 PM
In my opinion, there were no transsexuals at the bar that Beth should have been jealous of. She is far more feminine than the other women there.

Well...besides you. You're beautiful, Brooke!  ;)

And I was jealous of the cis-women near the lounge, not "our" crowd.  :-\

Thanks hun. And I am glad you were not talking about our crowd. I would like to look like some of the other women there as well.