Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I was just wondering if perhaps the estrogenic hormones will have an effect on my voice?  I wouldn't say I have a deep voice, so I'm not worried about that... A friend of mine said my voice isn't really deep, but that it is a male's voice.

Hopefully I'm not  getting all jumbled up here... simply put; I realize the hormones wouldn't have an effect on the depth of my voice, but would it otherwise have any effect on feminizing it a bit? As really, it's the one thing that has me concerned right now about my possible future transition

HRT does not effect the voice.  Voice training does.  There is surgery to change the voice, but training is so much easier and cheaper.

Voice training seems incredibly daunting to me, I'd be so worried about slipping up. Strangest thing is I brought the topic of voice training up to my therapist and she basically looked at me aghast and gave me the whole "Why would you want that? You don't need voice training, the whole point of doing this is to be yourself! Besides the hormones should soften your voice a little, it effects the voices of natural women!" 

*facepalms*  More and more I'm wondering if she might be a bad fit

Allowing the woman from within to emerge contributed very much to my voice training. That meant stopping completely from socialising as male. I had a few useless sessions of voice therapy on the NHS in the UK. What affected my voice the most was having long conversations with friends over the phone. Without even realising it, my voice was becoming 'female', including pitch and inflections. So the next voice therapist I found didn't think could help me much with improvements, as I was just about there. I haven't been mis-gendered on the phone for 15 years. To me it feels like my voice hasn't changed, as the changes were gradual.

Quote from: Firecat on September 16, 2012, 12:50:59 AM
Voice training seems incredibly daunting to me, I'd be so worried about slipping up.

It is like anything else - practice, practice, practice.

Quote from: Firecat on September 16, 2012, 12:50:59 AMStrangest thing is I brought the topic of voice training up to my therapist and she basically looked at me aghast and gave me the whole "Why would you want that? You don't need voice training, the whole point of doing this is to be yourself! Besides the hormones should soften your voice a little, it effects the voices of natural women!" 

Your therapist obviously has no idea what she is talking about, so let us tackle this and then you can inform her better.

1) "the hormones should soften your voice a little" - as others have said, this is simply wrong. We should know....  ::)

2) "the whole point of doing this is to be yourself" - I agree with this, but part of being yourself is being accepted in the female role you need to live in.

Let us give your therapist a simple example. She is in a public toilet and sitting on the toilet doing her 'business' when the woman in the next cubicle accidently drops something on the floor. It rolls into your therapists cubicle. A nicely manicured hand appears under the divider between the cubicles......

Scenario A: a feminine voice says 'Sorry - could you hand me that back please?'

Scenario B: a masculine voice says 'Sorry - could you hand me that back please?'

Question: Which scenario - A or B - causes the cops to be called?

Quote from: Firecat on September 16, 2012, 12:50:59 AM
Voice training seems incredibly daunting to me, I'd be so worried about slipping up. Strangest thing is I brought the topic of voice training up to my therapist and she basically looked at me aghast and gave me the whole "Why would you want that? You don't need voice training, the whole point of doing this is to be yourself! Besides the hormones should soften your voice a little, it effects the voices of natural women!" 

*facepalms*  More and more I'm wondering if she might be a bad fit

HRT does not affect your voice period. Your therapist is wrong. Also, there are many good reasons why you want to have a voice which fits your outer gender presentation. If you ever need to find a job, few places will hire any person who's voice doesn't match their gender be they MTF or FTM, looks aside. You need to practice as that's the only way it's going to change.

Ugh x.x this really does scare me more than the SRS and tossup between Electrolysis or laser or any of it really.  Is the vocal training something I can teach myself? Or is this something I require a specialist for? I have been practicing my pitch and tone when I've been alone a bit, singing and whatnot, seeing how long I can keep to a higher pitch. Its pretty difficult, and runs me out of breath.

I recently had a reaction to a certain medication that caused me to lose a bit of weight (168 down to about 160-162 in just a couple of days) and about a few other curious side effects. One of them, I swear, was my voice was a bit different. I don't know how or why, but I really couldn't speak in a low tone at all for a few days... as if someone had cut the cord to the bottom of my voice. I'm not saying my voice was high pitched and different, but I just couldn't make my voice sound at all deep during that time.

Wishful thinking I know, and it was probably in my head, but it does have me wondering.

Kathe Perez
(http://www.exceptionalvoice.com/voice-feminization/voice-feminization-therapy/) Has helped a lot of women.

Quote from: Firecat on September 16, 2012, 10:32:38 AM
Ugh x.x this really does scare me more than the SRS and tossup between Electrolysis or laser or any of it really.

Why? This hurts less.

Quote from: Firecat on September 16, 2012, 10:32:38 AMIs the vocal training something I can teach myself? Or is this something I require a specialist for?

Yes, you can teach yourself to do it. The fundamentals are simple enough, but it requires practice, practice and more practice. Expect it to take a minimum of 6 months. A specialist would undoubtedly help but I can tell you the two basic things you need to do in  a dozen words

- Lose your male chest resonance

- Up your pitch by about 50 Hz

That's it. Those are the two biggest changes. It also helps if you can learn to change your intonation - how you stress and pronounce the words.

Quote from: Firecat on September 16, 2012, 10:32:38 AMI have been practicing my pitch and tone when I've been alone a bit, singing and whatnot, seeing how long I can keep to a higher pitch. Its pretty difficult, and runs me out of breath.

Ahem! Practice, practice, practice.

Quote from: Firecat on September 16, 2012, 10:32:38 AMI recently had a reaction to a certain medication that caused me to lose a bit of weight (168 down to about 160-162 in just a couple of days) and about a few other curious side effects. One of them, I swear, was my voice was a bit different. I don't know how or why, but I really couldn't speak in a low tone at all for a few days... as if someone had cut the cord to the bottom of my voice. I'm not saying my voice was high pitched and different, but I just couldn't make my voice sound at all deep during that time.

Pitch is not that critical. The difference between male and female is as little as 50Hz. Men speak around 110Hz and women at around 220Hz but anything over 167Hz gets classed as female. My voice is generally around 180Hz but because I am tall for a woman (5'8") people expect a lower pitch. If I was squeaking away at 250Hz everyone would stare at me.

Get rid of male resonance - that is the real killer. Put your hand on the top of your chest and talk - you will feel vibration in your chest. Now talk in a high falsetto voice and you will feel no vibration in your chest. You need to remove that vibration at a lower pitch because nobody talks in a falsetto. One way to do it is to learn to lift your Adams Apple (AA).

Put your fingers on your AA and swallow. Your AA moves up so there are muscles attached to your AA and you need to learn to use these muscles. Keep your fingers on your AA and move your tongue up and to the back of your mouth and you will feel the AA move up. Experiment with this. Once you can lift your AA try talking with it lifted and using a slightly higher pitch. The chest resonance should be greatly reduced.

Practice, practice, practice.

Then work on intonation. Listen to women talk. In particular pay attention to the dentals - t and d and also the letter s. Women tend to pronounce their t's and d's quite hard and clearly. Listen to the letter s - it tends to be quite sharp. Men mumble these letters.

Get that lot sorted out and working for you and you will more than halfway there, but it takes practice and there will be a lot of frustration and failure on the way.

Does this come to feel more natural over time? Will it one day be possible to do this without thinking about it?   ALSO! Is there a way to measure those numerical readings on your voice from home? That would be so handy!

On the other hand, FtM Hormone therapy will turn a natural girl voice in to a deeper masculine voice rather quickly. I recall a young FtM that used to attend gender group meetings that was very feminine with a very female voice. He went on Testosterone and wound up with a face full of whiskers and a basso voice within half a year. I was astounded!

Quote from: Firecat on September 16, 2012, 11:48:00 AM
Does this come to feel more natural over time? Will it one day be possible to do this without thinking about it?

Yes it does. You just need to train you muscles. I take it you have been trying it yourself?

Quote from: Firecat on September 16, 2012, 11:48:00 AMALSO! Is there a way to measure those numerical readings on your voice from home? That would be so handy!

Yes - you can use PC based software called a Spectrograph. Go here http://www.transforum.org.uk (http://www.transforum.org.uk) and scroll down. Plug a microphone in and you are all set. The image below shows my female voice on the left and my male voice on the right and it was virtaully the same phrase for both. One was this is my female voice and the other was this is my male voice.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1081.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj349%2Fbev1970%2Fvoice1.png&hash=6d6760c5d852efa471db34f7660b9713a1b0093e)

A number of differences are immediately obvious. The male voice is lower in tone and the overtones are about 70Hz apart. The female voice has less to work with (no chest resonance) and the overtones are spaced further apart (about 200Hz). This is why a female voice sounds different. In terms of pitch it is not that much different. Resonance and intonation are what make the big differences.

Hormones may help a little with the voice, gradually and over time but you can't count on it.  I know that I can no longer tell my mother's voice from my father's voice on the telephone anymore, they are older, menopause has probably made my mother's voice deeper and my father's own lack of testosterone production due to age has caused him to sound a bit more like my mother.

Voice is part physical and part training.  Think of when you began going through puberty (if you can remember) and how you had to train your developing voice.  Also some people put more development into their voice than others, think radio announcer.

Training your voice may seem daunting but if you can learn to simply keep your voice up in the top of your head with the famous Rach technique over time you will just develop a female voice without effort.  (In my experience)  That and perhaps a little help from hormones or elfin magic

By the way, my psychiatrist says that in his experience, HRT has a modest effect on voice. Nothing that will change your voice from non-passable to passable in all realism, but he says it has a small effect.

But yeah, you'll have to train and try. Some manage without professional training; some need it. If you don't want to spend the fortune voice therapy costs, you can still try by yourself. Just make sure you don't overdo it, damaging your vocal cords.

I've been training since my voice began to change in the beginning of my adolescence, so I don't have much to say in terms of tips for starting from scratch. All I can advise is to try to imitate singing patterns and voice actors. It made me realise some key elements that made my singing better, and my speaking more confident.

It may take me a bit to learn how to use that program, but it looks very promising. Vocalization really is the scariest part to me... I'm very withdrawn, extremely shy about hearing my voice on recording, and have lots of trouble speaking "normally" in public... not to mention just last year I moved back in with my incredibly biggotted (in all things gender) mother, and have had a hell of a time keeping this all a secret from her after a botched attempt at a "hypothetical" question regarding cross-dressing...

I'm going to do my best to try training my voice, starting with the very basics on a PDF I found in the Spectrograph zip folder. Honestly, I'm just thankful my voice only just sounds male, and its not too husky or harsh or horse or any other H words you can think of.  Does anybody perhaps know of any other online tutorials I can look at, just so I can judge the common methods and see what works best?

Your therapist is an idiot. Sorry but they are. Getting a female voice was far and away the most important part of my transition. You can look like a Disney princess, but if you have a guys voice people are gonna treat you like a man. If you really are a woman, you do not want to look like a woman yet sound like a man and be treated as such. Been there done that. Also HRT will not change your voice. Your vocal chords have developed and HRT doesn't change them. I would venture to say you could not really be very passable but if you have a great voice, everyone would gender you as female. It's that important.

I had a professional therapist help me but you can do it on your own. I used this program called sing and see, helped me a lot and was simple to use. it just takes a LOT of practice and listening to yourself. I got this simple "pitch pipe" electronic box off ebay to hear my target pitch before I started and a digital voice recorder to listen to myself. Females do have different speach patterns so it helps to go somewhere and just listen or listen on TV closely for the differences in how they pronounce words. I did most of my practice when driving but did some at home too. I was living full time at this point so could practice in real life too. It took be about 6-8 months to get a really good voice and no, I never have to even think about it. It's my natural voice now and I would have to make an effort to try to sound like a guy now. I do "tune up" in the morning in the shower to stretch my vocal cords but that's it.

Couldn't agree more Stephe.  My voice and intonation is in my mind the most crucial part of my transition.  There is no point in looking passable if you sound like a docker.

I addressed this with the gender clinic and my GP.  Both agreed and requested speech therapy, only to be turned down by the local NHS trust.  I was told I could go to London for treatment (directly through that trust) but the cost would be more than going private.

I have been told that GP commissioning should solve this and that the new national commissioning body will create a level playing field.

Quote from: Pippa on September 17, 2012, 11:28:47 AM
I have been told that GP commissioning should solve this and that the new national commissioning body will create a level playing field.

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

I would love to think you are right.... I hope you are right, but we are dealing with NHS bureaucracy here.

BRC.

My GP wants to commission voice therapy for me but is being blocked.  When she is in charge of the commissioning the only stumbling block will be if the national commissioning body blocks speech therapy.  As this is a relatively cheap and quick fix, offered by many trusts, hopefully they won't block it.

I hope it works out Pippa. I managed to do my voice on my own and with some help from my local TS group. I am sure it can be improved but in day-to-day use it seems to work well enough.

I just wish I could get over my shyness of hearing myself on tape, it would make things so much easier. Don't know why, I've always just hated my voice, even though others seem to like it.

It's because it sounds like the wrong gender or at least for me that was the problem. I like the way my voice sounds now that it fits me. I do think it is pretty normal that people don't like how their own voice sounds because is sounds VERY different than how you hear yourself. -That- is why it's so important to record your voice and listen back for feedback.

But know that different recording devices, microphones and playback devices will make you sound different. I highly recommend getting a decent quality recorder and if you're at home, use a decent quality microphone and external speakers for this. You'll know you have a female voice when 100% of the time you are ma'amed when you answer the phone or order at a drive through :)

THAT would be nice, currently its like a knife in my heart every time I hear someone say "thank you, (sir, dude, man, etc)", even over the phone. Hopefully I'll be doing this properly to get the results I'm looking for.

Quote from: Firecat on September 17, 2012, 01:21:57 PM
THAT would be nice, currently its like a knife in my heart every time I hear someone say "thank you, (sir, dude, man, etc)", even over the phone.

Exactly and why I'm shocked when anyone discounts voice. Like how is it going to feel to someone else when you order at the drive through, they hear a man and then a woman comes to the window? It's this sort of disconnect that makes people uncomfortable. I'm not saying it is wrong to be a gender queer or that we should be "stealth", but my goal is to be seen and treated as a woman and having a voice that matches my appearance was important to reaching this goal that I had.

I went into therapy feeling 100% confident of just who I should be... I've been seeing her for a few months now, and I still have every sign and indication in my heart that its what I want, but really all my therapy has done is show me how afraid I am of being judged by others and making my own decisions or even trusting myself.  I think really learning how to speak again would be a great place to build my self esteem a bit.

Quote from: Firecat on September 17, 2012, 01:47:26 PM
I went into therapy feeling 100% confident of just who I should be... I've been seeing her for a few months now, and I still have every sign and indication in my heart that its what I want, but really all my therapy has done is show me how afraid I am of being judged by others and making my own decisions or even trusting myself.  I think really learning how to speak again would be a great place to build my self esteem a bit.

Self confidence however you gain it is key. I would say 99% of my self confidence has come from living in the world as a woman. Every time some young guy holds a door and waits for me to get there, every compliment etc just adds to it. Even if you can only do it part time, start just being a woman and your self confidence will grow. But I do believe a good voice will take you a LONG way. Even if someone thinks they clock you and toss out a "Sir", come back in a female voice "excuse me?" and they will trip all over themselves apologizing.

I'm a long ways from being able to do that, but it is a nice thought  :)   And yeah, self confidence and anxiety are really all that is holding me back now.  I think I overdid it with playing with my voice at work tonight, my upper chest and back are both fairly sore now lol

I had heard however that lemons were supposed to soften up the vocal cords for singers, might that also help with this process a bit?

Quote from: Stephe on September 17, 2012, 06:34:15 PM
Even if someone thinks they clock you and toss out a "Sir", come back in a female voice "excuse me?" and they will trip all over themselves apologizing.

^^^^ this

Voice is so important.

I trained my voice by finding a female singer (I chose Amanda Palmer) whose range I could hit, and sang along.  Then, instead of singing, I started talking in the same range.  I recorded myself doing this, and practiced, practiced, practiced.  I think I even gained an octave over time.  My voice is very passable, and I have never had any problems, either in person or on the phone.  It took time (several months), it was a lot of work, and like most things about transitioning, it was maddeningly frustrating along the way, but it was totally worth it. 

Has anyone else here ever have an issue with a very sore back after working with their voice? I spent a few hours alone playing with mine at work and noticed my chest and back were feeling like they'd had quite a workout, and woke up today to find my back was painfully stiff.

Drink plenty when doing it and rest your voice for at least 24 hours. If it is still sore tomorrow give it another 24 hours. Your throat has to get used to this.

Also, however long you spent on it today, cut to half that and see how it works out. Your throat cannot do everything on day 1 any more than you can do a 26 mile marathon which no practice or training.

So just like exercising the body, its okay to go with a one day on, 1-2 day off routine at times like these? I want to make sure progress is safe and steady, with minimal regression

Simple rule - if it hurts then stop it.

I bet you are breathing wrong if your chest hurts. Using a female voice requires more air and you have to breath from your diaphragm not the chest. You should see your tummy rise and fall when you breath not your chest. It sounds crazy but most people breath wrong :P

I had no honest idea what a diaphragm was, to be honest >.< Anatomy wasn't a strong suit for me.
I guess that is probably the best place to begin practicing then!

My voice therapist had me spend the first week breathing practice only. Lay on my back and breath with my hand on my belly to make sure I was breathing there and not my chest. It's a must given you have to add some breathiness to many words/sounds to get rid of the male staccato type speech pattern. Words flow and aren't chopped but at the same time aren't mumbled.

 :) Yeah I'm totally going to go see a voice therapist as soon as my budget becomes a little more lenient, I totally learn better with someone there to guide me. In the mean time I'll try to take it slow and safe.
For the time being I need to figure out how I can work this into my daily routine so I don't just start forgetting for days on end, its very important after all!

I do better too for things like this where someone can listen and say "no, more like this" and then I can try again instead of practicing wrong. IMHO this is no different than say trying to teach yourself to play golf. Sure you can do it but are you learning the right way to do it where it becomes effortless and consistently good?

My voice coach also helped with other social issues and simple things women do that men don't. Of course you can over do the "stereotypes" but I have noticed many things she was right about, like women sit closer together than men usually, they often will do something like touch the other woman's arm to make a point, guys would never do that. I hear people say "that's being fake" but it's just how women are socialized. Men are socialized differently and if you want to fit into women's space, you should behave like a woman does. Being a woman is more than just being female or looking female. You can look 100% passable but if you act like a guy, there would be a disconnect just as strong as if you use a guys voice. Sure there is a lot of variation in how women act but even a natal female that acts extra manly isn't accepted as "one of the girls" in many circles.

An example of things women do that men would never do. I was at the post office and the lady at the counter said "You smell great what are you wearing?" I happened to have a small bottle of the scented lotion I use in my purse, showed her and told her "try some, it feels really nice too." The lady next to her joined in the conversation, wanted to try some and I told them where to get it at the mall. We exchanged names, I finished up my business and waved bye.  Two guys would NEVER have an exchange like that. Nor would a woman with a man. Men would never compliment each other on something they were wearing or their hair etc either. It really is just a different world being a woman and it's so much nicer :)

I've developed a strong biased to how men act and socialize in the world around me--always trying to act tough or strong or like they don't care, or poke fun at each other non-stop. Its awkward and uncomfortable, I'm too sensitive, and always try to be mindful and respectful of others feelings whenever I can, but there is a side of me that has been so conditioned to do just those things to try and fit in, and I do it badly, and it always winds up with me feeling like a total ass. My "friends" would always pick on each other for anything they found was different about them, and were always super competitive, and I could never really relate to them, I've always been one for more personal and open-hearted conversation, something I can never really get as a male.

Now, in my online life, I feel way more at ease, I have a lot more friends, about 90% of them are female, I can talk to them about just about anything, and I feel like I can really connect. some of them I try to pass for a female, others know just about everything about me. I've made one or two friends in real life I can do that with, and once I get going on the subject of crossdressing or trans life, I can talk a mile a minute, but otherwise I'm generally awkward and withdrawn.

Honestly, I have no idea whats supposed to feel "right" to me, sometimes I feel desperate for making the transition, other times it just feels like I'm being driven by it whether I like it or not.  I've made more positive changes in myself in the year since I started to truly realize this side of me, and all the while I have no earthly idea if this is something I could do. Its like my deepest desire (for over 8 years now) is also the biggest taboo in my mind.   (Waaaaay off in a tangent...)   Needless to say, I have a LOT to learn, and I need to find a way to stop being so self conscious so that I may figure some of this stuff out, and obviously a new shrink may be in order.

-Edit- I did talk to her today, and brought up some of these issues... suddenly, she agrees that the voice is important, but its still far more important, in the end, to express myself for who I am, and not to try act like someone else apparently.

Quote from: Firecat on September 19, 2012, 12:29:39 AM
-Edit- I did talk to her today, and brought up some of these issues... suddenly, she agrees that the voice is important, but its still far more important, in the end, to express myself for who I am, and not to try act like someone else apparently.

"Who we are" is a combination of nature and nurture. Parents and others see male body and buy us a fire truck to play with. We are told "boys don't do that" and "Act like a man". We want to fit in so try, at least, to emulate the males around us. We might find out we fail at it but some of it sinks in. For trans people, we know this is wrong or at least I did from when I was very young. But we are socialized in this manner anyway.

We all are "acting" as we socialize with other people no matter what we do. If I was going to just "express myself" I would tell anyone I didn't really like talking to "Go away, you are a bore" but we don't act like that. That isn't acceptable behavior and the people you do like wouldn't approve. It's why to be accepted as a woman by other women, we have to socialize ourselves as women.

Here is another example, men will almost always be talking about something they own or something they accomplished that they feel makes them look Superior. It's why they have to win an argument or at least thing they do.  That or talking about something else manly like sports and only if their team won. They NEVER talk about feelings they had or ask another man to open up about how they have been feeling in casual conversations. Women on the other hand compliment other people trying to build them up rather than themselves. Regularly total strangers compliment me or if I compliment them, a nice little conversation then happens (see the above example). They share more of their feelings and family type events rather than "I got this new porshe" type of news. It's about making other feel good not about making yourself look good. If a guy acts like that, it's just weird and it's perceived as "There is just something wrong with them".

I don't consider educating myself on how to talk, behave and act as a woman "acting" or not being myself because I was never socialized to be a woman. As a man, you have no idea how to behave in a women's bathroom. The only way you can ever really fit into women's space is to learn these details we were never taught growing up. Being a woman isn't something they were born as, they -learn- to be women and we must as well.

Quote from: Firecat on September 16, 2012, 12:50:59 AM
Voice training seems incredibly daunting to me, I'd be so worried about slipping up. Strangest thing is I brought the topic of voice training up to my therapist and she basically looked at me aghast and gave me the whole "Why would you want that? You don't need voice training, the whole point of doing this is to be yourself! Besides the hormones should soften your voice a little, it effects the voices of natural women!" 

*facepalms*  More and more I'm wondering if she might be a bad fit

if your voice therapist told you that, then you need to drop that person....quickly. My therapist told me it should be the first thing I should start working on ..even before HRT.

Quote from: Annah on September 19, 2012, 10:56:29 AM
if your voice therapist told you that, then you need to drop that person....quickly. My therapist told me it should be the first thing I should start working on ..even before HRT.

No no, my normal "gender" therapist told me that, though its still just as crazy and incomprehensible regardless.

Quote from: Annah on September 19, 2012, 10:56:29 AM
if your voice therapist told you that, then you need to drop that person....quickly. My therapist told me it should be the first thing I should start working on ..even before HRT.

I run into this a lot.  I'm mostly stealth, and I've had several friends and family members who know me before tell me that I should just be me, be proud of what I am, and not care what other people think.  It's a lovely sentiment, but it so profoundly misses the point.  I *am* proud of what I am, but I didn't transition because I wanted to be a transsexual.  The point is for the world to treat me as a woman, not as something different. 

I've also had a lot of doctors tell me a lot of weird things over the years that are just so profoundly not true.  It can be a little frustrating. 

Right, and here I am at the beginning of all of this, not even sure if my face would pass, or if my voice could ever truly fit the bill, or whether to go with electrolysis or laser, or if any of this will really turn out to be what I truly hope it will be for me in improving my life. Its like they don't even understand how important any of this is for our self esteem.  My greatest fear is actually being seen as just that, a transsexual, a man who became a woman. Physically, yeah okay it will be true, but mentally, as we all understand... far from it, and all I really want is just the same as you Erica, to be treated as a woman. I loathe being male.

Oh back onto the topic of voice, after you reach said new octave, will it be possible for one to maintain it through regular (female) speech, or is further vocal practice necessary?

Quote from: Firecat on September 19, 2012, 12:40:24 PM
Right, and here I am at the beginning of all of this, not even sure if my face would pass, or if my voice could ever truly fit the bill, or whether to go with electrolysis or laser, or if any of this will really turn out to be what I truly hope it will be for me in improving my life. Its like they don't even understand how important any of this is for our self esteem.  My greatest fear is actually being seen as just that, a transsexual, a man who became a woman. Physically, yeah okay it will be true, but mentally, as we all understand... far from it, and all I really want is just the same as you Erica, to be treated as a woman. I loathe being male.

Even four to five years ago, I was in exactly the same place you are in now.  I was sure I would never pass without major surgery.  I just couldn't see it.  I couldn't hear it, either.  Voice was frustrating. I recorded myself endlessly.  I was sure I would never get there.  Thank god, I did.  I've never seen a photo of you, give the hormones and the electrolysis time to work.  Electrolysis/laser especially can make a world of difference.  It did with me.  If you need surgery to truly pass, you won't be even close to being alone.  The most frustrating part of this is how slow it goes, and not being able to see the end result. 

If it helps, this is where I started: http://i1241.photobucket.com/albums/gg515/elindber/cc29586e.jpg (http://i1241.photobucket.com/albums/gg515/elindber/cc29586e.jpg)

If someone had told me then that I could look like I do now....  I couldn't even begin to see it. 

Quote from: Firecat on September 19, 2012, 12:50:39 PM
Oh back onto the topic of voice, after you reach said new octave, will it be possible for one to maintain it through regular (female) speech, or is further vocal practice necessary?

Me?  I think I gained about an octave through maintaining my normal speaking voice.  I noticed that when singing one day, that I could suddenly hit notes in full voice that I never could before. 

Quote from: Firecat on September 19, 2012, 12:40:24 PM
Right, and here I am at the beginning of all of this, not even sure if my face would pass, or if my voice could ever truly fit the bill, or whether to go with electrolysis or laser, or if any of this will really turn out to be what I truly hope it will be for me in improving my life. Its like they don't even understand how important any of this is for our self esteem.  My greatest fear is actually being seen as just that, a transsexual, a man who became a woman. Physically, yeah okay it will be true, but mentally, as we all understand... far from it, and all I really want is just the same as you Erica, to be treated as a woman.

Too many worries. Take the first steps and the rest will sort itself out. Here is my advice and a lot of it is 'reversible'

Stage 1:
- Grow out your hair
- Grow your nails
- Start dressing more androgynously
- Pluck your eyebrows
- Practice your voice.  (Here - have a laugh...  https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,126967.msg1000608.html#msg1000608 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,126967.msg1000608.html#msg1000608) )
- Start waxing arms and legs. After about 6 months move to an epilator

Stage 2:
- If you have dark hair and light skin, get laser else get electro

Stage 3: (getting irreversible)
- Hormones
- Name change
- coming out

Quote from: Firecat on September 19, 2012, 12:40:24 PMI loathe being male.

Well then... stop doing it :D

Many of us find that the process is not as bad as we fear.

Dark dark brown hair, olive skin (pale from lack of sun)... been shaving my legs for over a year, and alternating nair and razor on my chest. My eyebrows are still a mess, and my beard stubble never truly goes away, even with makeup.  I have been growing my hair out for about 9 months now, and was actually the first time I ever changed my hair in my life. 

Will my hair / skin color make for better laser chances? And by extension is laser permanent?  Also I have no idea what an epilator is.

I apologize for all the questions, researching by myself only leads to having more worries and questions, so its nice to hear it from somebody. I do really appreciate all the advice you are all giving, thank you!

Quote from: Firecat on September 19, 2012, 01:27:27 PM
Dark dark brown hair, olive skin (pale from lack of sun)

Hmm.. Difficult to call. It may depend on the laser used. Make an appointment and get a test patch, it is the only way to know.

Quote from: Firecat on September 19, 2012, 01:27:27 PM... been shaving my legs for over a year, and alternating nair and razor on my chest.

Neither shaving nor Nair will do you much good. Waxing and epilating will damage the hairs and over time they wil get thinner and probably stop growing. Epilating hurts like hell. Waxing hurts less and I found that waxing an area for a while weakened the hair and then epilating hurt a lot less. Now I epilate everything below the neck twice a week whether it needs it or not.

I wish it worked on bristles...

Quote from: Firecat on September 19, 2012, 01:27:27 PMMy eyebrows are still a mess,

In what way?

Quote from: Firecat on September 19, 2012, 01:27:27 PMmy beard stubble never truly goes away, even with makeup.

Laser. Electro. etc.....  :(

Quote from: Firecat on September 19, 2012, 01:27:27 PMI have been growing my hair out for about 9 months now, and was actually the first time I ever changed my hair in my life. 

:)

Quote from: Firecat on September 19, 2012, 01:27:27 PMAlso I have no idea what an epilator is.

An epilator is a device to inflict extreme pain. After about 6 months it becomes a merely unpleasant way to remove hair. After a year it works just fine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epilator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epilator)

Quote from: Firecat on September 19, 2012, 01:27:27 PMI apologize for all the questions, researching by myself only leads to having more worries and questions, so its nice to hear it from somebody. I do really appreciate all the advice you are all giving, thank you!

Do not worry, we were all in the same situation once.

My eyebrows? Just thick and bushy, having a hell of a time just keeping them from growing together  :(

Shaving my legs I'm fine with, but I want something a little longer lasting anywhere above. Is waxing something I can do myself?

As far as Electrolysis vs Laser, I heard Laser has far less chance of serious scarring (not saying there won't be any chance) from what I've read... Electrolysis potentially leaving discolored skin kind of scares me in itself.

The biggest scare of all, however, is my family history with baldness. My brother started losing his hair when he was 24, and is now 28 with that evil horse-shoe showing. I'm currently 24 and have had a bit of hairline recession (not tooooo much). I like to believe that its just a maturing of the hairline, but one can never be too cautious. I've always had much thicker hair than him. So on top of it all, I'm looking for a good diet or hair product that might give me an edge and at least slow it down until I get on hormones, as I heard that those will at the very least drastically slow down further hair loss.

All in all, I've been desperate to get myself situated and under way, and I've been nothing but a worry wart for this and that for months on end

Quote from: Firecat on September 19, 2012, 01:51:20 PM
My eyebrows? Just thick and bushy, having a hell of a time just keeping them from growing together  :(

In that case, just keep plucking. The hairs give up eventually.

Quote from: Firecat on September 19, 2012, 01:51:20 PMShaving my legs I'm fine with, but I want something a little longer lasting anywhere above. Is waxing something I can do myself?

Yes, easily. Buy wax strips. http://youtu.be/tAWGGciopI8 (http://youtu.be/tAWGGciopI8)

Quote from: Firecat on September 19, 2012, 01:51:20 PMAs far as Electrolysis vs Laser, I heard Laser has far less chance of serious scarring (not saying there won't be any chance) from what I've read... Electrolysis potentially leaving discolored skin kind of scares me in itself.

Both have to be done by experienced people but electrolysis should be less or a problem because it is done in small patches so if there are problems only a small spot wil be affected. You really need to try it and see, there is no other way to be sure.

Quote from: Firecat on September 19, 2012, 01:51:20 PMThe biggest scare of all, however, is my family history with baldness. My brother started losing his hair when he was 24, and is now 28 with that evil horse-shoe showing. I'm currently 24 and have had a bit of hairline recession. I like to believe that its just a maturing of the hairline, but one can never be too cautious. I've always had much thicker hair than him. So on top of it all, I'm looking for a good diet or hair product that might give me an edge and at least slow it down until I get on hormones, as I heard that those will at the very least drastically slow down further hair loss.

You could try using Saw Palmetto which is a herbal product that is supposed to interfere with the production of DHT which makes your hair fall out. Spearmint tea is meant to have a similar effect. Try the Saw Palmetto but watch out for sore nipples as some report it gives minor breast growth. You can buy Saw Palmetto at any health store. It may make no difference at all or it might but hair is sloooowwww to grow and it would probably take 6 to 12 months before you know.

Another option is Minoxidil. Go for the generic rather than Rogaine / Regaine which is the same stuff but at 4 times the price. It can cause some shedding of hair but this is supposed to be caused by fresh growth pushing out older hairs. Once again, allow 6 months before judging whether it works.

Quote from: Firecat on September 19, 2012, 01:51:20 PM
All in all, I've been desperate to get myself situated and under way, and I've been nothing but a worry wart for this and that for months on end

To finish, you actually have to start...... I know it is not easy (been there, done that) but it does get easier.

Firecat

Hopefully, this can help alleviate some tension

This was me three years ago:

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm9.staticflickr.com%2F8319%2F8003938857_d5d9b99cde.jpg&hash=81b29f939b83e696ae97c2c05baaa630a3cd125f)

Here I am a couple years later:

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm9.staticflickr.com%2F8179%2F8003948687_584bab6916_z.jpg&hash=da5dad90560d5fc212476d66df91c5a02e1306f8)


The simple truth is you will never know how you will turn out...it's like a girl who is pregnant. She will never know what the baby will look like until it's born. When it's born, she wont really know what the baby will look like when she is 5. Again when she graduates high school. However, when you look back you can see the similarities. You just really have a harder time seeing it in a future perspective.

And I agree with the others. Being who I am also requires me to have changed my voice. My older voice wasn't who I was. Now, I know there are those who do not want to change their voice and they are ok with that. However, everyone is different. If you changing your voice is important to you, do not let any therapist or other transgender tell you otherwise.

Also, about whether or not to do electro or laser: I opted for laser. It was much much cheaper. It was quicker and two year later I haven't shaved my face once. My laser..got a deal for 990 dollars with a lifetime guarantee. When I looked into electro, it would have taken longer, costs me over 8000 dollars and I would had to grow patches of beard on my face for them to treat it. For me, it wasn't a hard decision.

Your face looks great after Laser, I must say.  I'm pretty envious of that actually, did they say whether it was permanent, or if you'd have to go back down the road?

Laser is "permanent", with quotes. It -shouldn't- grow back. But a little bit of it can come back to say hi after a couple of years. Many just don't care about that and pluck the little bit there is. Personally, even though I paid way too much for laser, my package includes extra sessions on my face, if desired, at about 50 $, so if I see any significant regrowth, I'll go back.

That is great ^.^ I think after I get myself situated, that will be the first think I look into as far as hair removal

As i stated...its been almost 3 years and i nvr needed to shave

Quote from: brc on September 19, 2012, 02:18:48 PM


You could try using Saw Palmetto which is a herbal product that is supposed to interfere with the production of DHT which makes your hair fall out. Spearmint tea is meant to have a similar effect. Try the Saw Palmetto but watch out for sore nipples as some report it gives minor breast growth. You can buy Saw Palmetto at any health store. It may make no difference at all or it might but hair is sloooowwww to grow and it would probably take 6 to 12 months before you know.

Only out of curiosity, what dosage is usually recommended for this herb?

Quote from: Firecat on September 19, 2012, 11:09:00 PM
Only out of curiosity, what dosage is usually recommended for this herb?

I have no idea. It will say on the side of the bottle.

herbal hormones has been hotly debated. Personally, I find no evidence how herbal hormones can altar the gender of a person.

Quote from: Annah on September 20, 2012, 02:30:54 AM
herbal hormones has been hotly debated. Personally, I find no evidence how herbal hormones can altar the gender of a person.

This is not about gender Annah, it is about hairloss.

Quote from: brc on September 20, 2012, 03:26:40 AM
This is not about gender Annah, it is about hairloss.

I beg to differ.

The thread started about HRT and voice, then about passing, then to hair loss. So, in a sense, the subject matter is all over the place in this thread...it just depends on what time of the day you read the thread.

For Firekat: Do you have medical Insurance? If you do, see your doctor about the possibility of Avodart. I took Avodart and I went from very little hair to a bushy full head of hair in a little less than 2 years. With insurance, I did not pay much. 11 dollars a month.

Without insurance, the generics are 40 a month.

Quote from: Annah on September 20, 2012, 05:02:11 AM
I beg to differ.

I will re-phrase it then: That particular question was not about hormones, but hairloss.

Okay... I renamed the topic, simple fix, I apologize. I was overzealous.

If you are serious about not having hair loss, I wouldn't depend on herbals. I was on finasteride for about 10 months or so, saw a major reduction in body hair but I also started feeling depressed which I have never been in my life. When I quit I also noticed my vision was clearer, like a fog was lifted. Colors were brighter etc. I know not everyone would have this reaction but I did (I do seem to by hyper-sensitive to meds and have oddball side effects). No idea on avodart, it might be the way to go on this.

These herbal ones -might- do something but I wouldn't count on it. They likely would have less side effects but again, if they are actually doing something, they can have side effects too.

I actually asked a doctor about finasteride but he outright refused because of potential side effects (though given he put me on zoloft, and after 3 doses I had 8 out of like 9 of the possible side effects of that, so... yeah.)

Now that you are talking about dutasteride / avodart... How long before the first side effects? It's been a week still nothing. No decrease in libido, pain, different sperm, etc... Currently using Dutas from Dr Reddy's (I wanted to get avodart, but the card payment system in Pharmacy Network is down). I wonder if it is fake or what. I can't buy even generics on pharmacies, so I have to resort to internet (the site at least it is legit and with good reviews).

BTW dermatologist ->-bleeped-<-ed me nicely. "Finasteride will do you great, don't worry about the side effects,  just a bit of libido decrease."They sent me to get some blood tests prior to finas, and after getting them...  "We won't be able to attend you and check the results until five months later". Oh, and it is not covered by social security.


Are you kidding me? So, self medicating myself, there is no other way around if i want to try and keep the hair until therapy advances. It is on a dangerous level of thinning.

Quote from: Crt.rnA on September 20, 2012, 12:53:56 PM


Are you kidding me? So, self medicating myself, there is no other way around if i want to try and keep the hair until therapy advances. It is on a dangerous level of thining.

Exactly what I'm trying to be wary of; blatant self-medication.  Teas and a change of diet on the other hand, I don't mind trying. I know tea, at least, is basically the same thing, but I'm sure the effects of said spearmint tea for instance are much safer than some of the potential side effects of highly concentrated doses of herbs (gelcaps, etc). At least, that is my thinking. That said, I'd heard of Green Tea having a similar effect, is this true? I love the taste of Green tea.

Not yet, anyways http://imgur.com/9B9mN (http://imgur.com/9B9mN)
Honestly I'm not sure if I am or not. My father has had a receded hairline for most of his life, which is common on his side, but there is no baldness there.  My mothers side they mostly all went bald at some point. My brother physically seems to resemble her side more, whereas I tend to resemble his side more.

Quote from: Firecat on September 20, 2012, 11:49:45 AM
I actually asked a doctor about finasteride but he outright refused because of potential side effects (though given he put me on zoloft, and after 3 doses I had 8 out of like 9 of the possible side effects of that, so... yeah.)

yeah if your doctor would not put on finasteride then there is no way he'll put you on Avodart (which is a shame because it is mind boggling how fast Avodart regrew my hair).

For those who had PMed me and asked on this thread about avodart/dutas:

When i started to take it, I noticed results as quickly as 3 weeks. I even took cell phone pics during that time because others (who never heard of Avodart) was utterly blown away over how quick the growth came back.

Clinical studies have shown Avodart provided better results (at a fraction of the dosage) of finasteride. One of the main reasons why I convinced my Dr to prescribe it for me.

About side effects I had experience: I really do not remember anything major. My libido was a;ready diminishing because of HRT.

Known side effects of Avodart is:

    Erectile dysfunction (ED) or impotence -- up to 4.7 percent of people
    A decreased libido (sex drive) -- up to 3 percent of people
    Abnormal ejaculation, including decreased ejaculate amount -- up to 1.4 percent of people
    Breast enlargement or breast tenderness -- up to 1.1 percent of people.

Which you wouldn't be able to tell if you're on HRT since HRT has the same side effects

Quote from: Firecat on September 20, 2012, 02:30:11 PM
Honestly I'm not sure if I am or not. My father has had a receded hairline for most of his life, which is common on his side, but there is no baldness there.

hairline is more or less the same, but less firm.

Ugh, I had to dig my old photos from five years ago, and remembered why I don't like to be photographed. And why I want as much FFS as possible. I don't know if I want my face to fill again, it was quite hideous when it was not all bony. I looked like a freaking retard.

I seriously doubt I am a good candidate for MTF, to be honest. Whenever I think that it have an oportunity, is mostly because I have not looked at my face for a long time. No matter how much FFS, a mid  longface is a big hindrance. Lately I keep thinking that it would be much better if I was dead. A bad way of thinking, but it starts sounding as an attractive idea, it can't be good.

did you see my before and after pics?

The truth is you wont know how you will look until you tried it. The first step is taking the first step on faith

Quote from: Annah on September 20, 2012, 03:29:24 PM
did you see my before and after pics?

The truth is you wont know how you will look until you tried it. The first step is taking the first step on faith

Dunno, to me you already had a cute face before.

Was the depression between the dutasteride effects? Maybe I AM getting side effects. I mean, I just got confirmed that I will be keeping my job and I can't feel happy in the slightest.

Quote from: Crt.rnA on September 20, 2012, 03:32:38 PM
Was the depression between the dutasteride effects? Maybe I AM getting side effects. I mean, I just got confirmed that I will be keeping my job and I can't feel happy in the slightest.

Remember that GID makes you unhappy with things too. It might not be Dutasteride causing the 'downer'

Quote from: Annah on September 20, 2012, 03:29:24 PM
did you see my before and after pics?

The truth is you wont know how you will look until you tried it. The first step is taking the first step on faith

I reached the point that that however I turn out I will deal with it. I simply needed to transition.

Quote from: brc on September 20, 2012, 03:36:26 PM
Remember that GID makes you unhappy with things too. It might not be Dutasteride causing the 'downer'

Probably is the feeling of being at a crossroad. Ignore the GID and hope I get fixed in some magical way (with danger of remaining sad, bitter for the rest of my life), or bet on transition and hope for the best.

When I first thought about the transition, I was happy that I knew that it was going to be difficult and incredible work, but i also saw it as something that would completely change my life style for the better. I would have to put an effort to make my life better instead of just sitting in my room watching paint dry while I lamented not having done a single decent thing in years.



Seeing the transition timelines, before/after, from that face filled with sadness at the beginning and compared to the current photo, and the faces being so different, it is what gives me hopes to continue, but after a few moments I am back to "I am a monster, it won't work. You start ugly and you will end uglier, you are old and yu have not aged well". Somebody even said something like "it is a mid longface, it always sucks".  It is hard to know when you have self-steem and autoimage problem. It is my dark passenger.


Would you believe if I told you that I even considered being a monk in one of those places with little or no contact with the world? When you consider resorting to religion again, that must be the lowest you can fall.


Well, I am in for another night of anxiety and distress, and again to the point of crying. I wish this would end once and for all. Life is a b*tch, specially when it gives you the wrong set of chromosomes.

Quote from: brc on September 20, 2012, 03:36:26 PM


I reached the point that that however I turn out I will deal with it. I simply needed to transition.

same here.

Quote from: brc on September 20, 2012, 03:36:26 PM
I reached the point that that however I turn out I will deal with it. I simply needed to transition.

Me three on that one.

I failed at being able to do electrolysis (horrible skin reactions), I am still fighting with HRT and side effects (The two things I hear over and over you MUST do before being full time) but I have been full time now for almost 5 years. You can deal with it if you need to and I did.

Well, I got in to a new clinic today, and have myself scheduled with a new therapist... the person who interviewed me has fixed me up with a shrink she says specifically works with gay, lesbian, and those with gender identity issues, so I'm hoping for the best!  :D  It's a real counseling center as opposed to a private practice this time.

Quote from: brc on September 19, 2012, 02:18:48 PM

You could try using Saw Palmetto which is a herbal product that is supposed to interfere with the production of DHT which makes your hair fall out. Spearmint tea is meant to have a similar effect. Try the Saw Palmetto but watch out for sore nipples as some report it gives minor breast growth. You can buy Saw Palmetto at any health store. It may make no difference at all or it might but hair is sloooowwww to grow and it would probably take 6 to 12 months before you know.

Does Saw Palmetto really work for that? If so, how high of a dose are we talking? And also is anyone aware of the chances of side effects are, and if they'll disrupt the chances of HRT?