Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Why would it be such a powerful trade with the female part of the species?

Lying, to oneself, to one's spouse, to friends, girl- and boy-friends, on the web, the list goes on and on.

I have (as usual) my own ideas about this, as a lie well told – one got away with it – is a kind of power-trip, alas a power-trip for the possessors of low self-image.
How great to 'feel' you fooled someone 'above' you? I guess rather good... or?

What would you say?

Axélle
PS: "outing oneself" so as not to lie, actually was the last thing on my mind...
OMG, am I such an innocent?  :angel:

I posed this question with my ethics and therapy professor.

A little background on this: I am stealth now in every aspect of my life except for dating. I will still tell a person who wants to be romantically involved I am trans before it even gets to the point of anything more serious.

However, with my profession, I am in stealth and I have been lying on a few issues of my life. I was troubled by this and I emailed my professor.

Here is what he had stated to me and I hope this helps:

Hi Annah:  You raise a very sensitive issue here. I guess I'd approach it from the perspective that protecting your privacy is the first value and sometimes a discretionary response is indicated.

You can't always know in advance when you have inadvertantly set in motion a line of inquiry that threatens to "out" you unintentionally, as you illustrate here.

It is good that you are bothered by misrepresenting yourself, especially when you also try to be an advocate for gender justice when you can. My view is that it is not unethical to "fabricate" to protect your privacy, since so much is at stake. The only thing you can do is to try to minimize the occasions on which it is necessary.

This may mean, among other things: know where you are and who you're with; how honest you can be; how and when to "bail out" of a conversation before you have to "fabricate." All of this is vastly easier to say than to do, and I can only barely imagine the difficulty it imposes on you. Let me know if this makes sense.

Feel free to follow up. I'd like to know if I've really understood the concern you raise. Remember: you are brave and resourceful. Trust that. Blessings,

Trolls...

;)

Quote from: Annah on September 20, 2012, 02:35:27 AM
I posed this question with my ethics and therapy professor.

A little background on this: I am stealth now in every aspect of my life except for dating. I will still tell a person who wants to be romantically involved I am trans before it even gets to the point of anything more serious.

However, with my profession, I am in stealth and I have been lying on a few issues of my life. I was troubled by this and I emailed my professor.

Here is what he had stated to me and I hope this helps:

Hi Annah:  You raise a very sensitive issue here. I guess I'd approach it from the perspective that protecting your privacy is the first value and sometimes a discretionary response is indicated.

You can't always know in advance when you have inadvertantly set in motion a line of inquiry that threatens to "out" you unintentionally, as you illustrate here.

It is good that you are bothered by misrepresenting yourself, especially when you also try to be an advocate for gender justice when you can. My view is that it is not unethical to "fabricate" to protect your privacy, since so much is at stake. The only thing you can do is to try to minimize the occasions on which it is necessary.

This may mean, among other things: know where you are and who you're with; how honest you can be; how and when to "bail out" of a conversation before you have to "fabricate." All of this is vastly easier to say than to do, and I can only barely imagine the difficulty it imposes on you. Let me know if this makes sense.

Feel free to follow up. I'd like to know if I've really understood the concern you raise. Remember: you are brave and resourceful. Trust that. Blessings,

Annah, I love you.

English is a difficult language and love is a difficult word.

I stand by my statement.

That was a man "trying" to understand... and failing.

That was not your gospel. Nor was it a man interpreting said gospel.

That was OLD SCHOOL getting YOUR boot!

Quote from: Abracadabra on September 20, 2012, 02:55:28 AM
Ah... say WHAT?!

A joke. ;)

Yeah, I see.

English is a terrible language.

Jerk. :p

Quote from: Tori on September 20, 2012, 02:57:42 AM
Annah, I love you.

English is a difficult language and love is a difficult word.

I stand by my statement.

That was a man "trying" to understand... and failing.

That was not your gospel. Nor was it a man interpreting said gospel.

That was OLD SCHOOL getting YOUR boot!

I don't understand what you mean by that statement.

I actually found his response to be wise and respectable.

I think you must have read a different message from my professor other than the one I posted. If you honestly thought he was giving me the boot or failing then you must get offended easily.

He even wrote in the letter, "I can only barely imagine the difficulty it imposes on you" so he doesn't presume to know all the answers.

I'm still perplexed about your gospel comment.

yeah, i was thinking it came from a Google translator because the response did not make much sense....and her statement was as if I had posted something completely different

  I am sorry Annah.

I am taking some very strong night time medication right now, and delusions are a side effect. It has come to the point where I turn my computer off before I take it. I made the mistake of browsing on my phone past night.

What I saw in that letter last night is not what I see today with a clear head.

Again sorry, I thought the side effects were minimizing. I guess they aren't. Can't wait to get off this stuff.

Annah,

You ever read a book called: "the people of the lie." That book is pretty good at separating the good lies from the bad lies. I would agree with your professor that when it comes to your privacy, omissions and misdirections (what you may call good lies) is the best way forward

sometimes we don't have a choice but to lie to protect ourselves and those we care about

I believe that if you have to choose between a lie that protects yourself and your family/ friends/ loved ones and the truth that makes us feel better but puts everything we hold dear at risk and endangers not just ourselves but those we care about the choice is obvious.

We can either choose to lie or somehow escape the situation where we have to lie.

Annah, your professor sounds really smart and awesome.

Tori, it's ok sometimes to see things differently because our situation and mindset at the time may not always be the same as others so it's difficult to make the choices we would normally always make and then we find ourselves wondering why on earth did we do that

ps : an typing on the phone so sorry if things get messy

I've always struggled with the morality of this.

However, as my Professor pointed out, fabricating the details of my past to certain people will not hurt them and I do keep the responsibility with letting the people who need to know my past know.

For example, in the church setting, I told my Conference. I told them them because they are the equivalent of Bishops and the ones who ordains me. They also need to know to weigh the outcome of any possible ramifications if a local church member were to find out and complain, my "higher ups" will already know and had already accepted my gender presentation.

I am a female, through and through. My past will not harm my congregation members. If they were to find out and disagree with it, they simply find another church to call home. This is where I believe there is a difference with lovers. For me, not telling a lover may harm him. It is a strong emotional betrayal and not easy to just walk away from when someone shared their most intimate and vulnerable moments with you.

Likewise, with my congregation, they know where I stand with LGBT issues. They know I embrace everyone who walks through our doors. So, me not telling them of my past isn't really me trying to avoid controversy. It's me not having to desire to disclose the specifics of my sex. Me being a female, a pluralistic church, has no bearing on my ability to minister.

My professor is also right about another thing. If a discussion looks like it may head towards an encounter in which I may need to fabricate, I simply change the subject or not involve myself with any unnecessary disclosure.

It is an interest issue.

This winter, I need to spend three weeks in an Amish Community. I will dress like them, I will live them, I will work alongside them and worship with them. While they will know I am not Amish and I am doing this for a requirement in Seminary, they will never know my birth Gender. I just cannot. If I did, I would not be welcomed. These are times when I need to avoid certain discussions so I will not have the need to fabricate.

In the end, the issue isn't a low self esteem issue. Nor is it an issue of me being ashamed of being transgender or my sexuality. It is more along the lines that I need to protect my interests, job safety, and those who have confided within me.

I may need google translator to understand that. :)

Annah, I thought your mentor was telling you to NEVER lie about your past, but to never tell the truth either. This really upset me. Delusions are like that. They feel real. I even read your post several times before replying. I was convinced I knew what I was talking about.

Oops.

Also, sorry Abra.

You are both tremendous assets to this community.

Quote from: Tori on September 21, 2012, 12:41:56 AM
I may need google translator to understand that. :)

Annah, I thought your mentor was telling you to NEVER lie about your past, but to never tell the truth either. This really upset me. Delusions are like that. They feel real. I even read your post several times before replying.

Also, sorry Abra.

You are both tremendous assets to this community.

no worries

My professor was saying that it is ok to fabricate in order to protect your privacy/sexuality/etc when things may create confusion, hostility, hurt, or any other emotion that isn't very productive....just be aware of your surroundings and if you feel bad about fabricating things then gauge the conversation and make the decision to carry forward or to end the conversation.

Annah:

Clearly, that is the case. Your professor is very knowledgeable and thoughtful.

Still haven't taken the crazy pill.

Need to soon though. So, goodnight.

Again, sorry.

Quote from: Abracadabra on September 20, 2012, 10:06:16 PM
How to know what is a "good" lie and what is a "bad" one?

Once you lie the jig is up... as one lie tends to lead to the next, right?

Also the German saying: "Wer einmal lügt dem glaubt man nicht und wenn er auch die Wahrheit spricht"

In prosaic English: "A liar is not believed even when he speaks the truth..."

Once found out to be a liar, something happens... a bond of trust is broken... not easily restored, if ever... and THAT, will add to and confirm a liars feeling of low self-image, yes?

Once such low self-image is accepted by the self (becomes normative)... lying can become a habit. I have seen this to be most prevalent in substance abusers... lying as much to themselves as to anyone else. Self-delusion and low self-image seem very good companions.

Therefor the second part that goes with lying seems low-self-image... unless we pity the person we're lying too. It will be equally devastating and undermining trust...

If this is getting too heavy, please ignore my reflections,
Axélle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie) 

best example of a good and bad lie that I can think of:

well, if you had a choice of telling the truth and putting your loved ones and ourself at risk where they/we could be murdered in our sleep cause of some i****'s hate or telling a lie, to ensure your own and your loved ones safety = good lie...
it could also be something as simple as not telling the truth about Santa to your kids so they don't loose their childhood innocence and are able to enjoy a few more years before the seriousness of life, that comes when we become teens, sets in.

a bad lie is something that harms a person either in the future or at present or in the past, its something lie when someone asks us if we would be there to meet them at a particular time but then we ditch them at the last moment and that person/persons have to spend their entire evening just waiting for us to turn up but we don't.

Quote from: Abracadabra on September 20, 2012, 10:06:16 PM
How to know what is a "good" lie and what is a "bad" one?

Once you lie the jig is up... as one lie tends to lead to the next, right?

Also the German saying: "Wer einmal lügt dem glaubt man nicht und wenn er auch die Wahrheit spricht"

In prosaic English: "A liar is not believed even when he speaks the truth..."

Once found out to be a liar, something happens... a bond of trust is broken... not easily restored, if ever... and THAT, will add to and confirm a liars feeling of low self-image, yes?

Once such low self-image is accepted by the self (becomes normative)... lying can become a habit. I have seen this to be most prevalent in substance abusers... lying as much to themselves as to anyone else. Self-delusion and low self-image seem very good companions.

Therefor the second part that goes with lying seems low-self-image... unless we pity the person we're lying too. It will be equally devastating and undermining trust...

If this is getting too heavy, please ignore my reflections,
Axélle

There are two kinds of men and only two. And that young man is one kind. He is high-minded. He is pure. He's the kind of man the world pretends to look up to, and in fact despises. He is the kind of man who breeds unhappiness, particularly in women. Do you understand?

I guess what Peky is trying to say - I hope you don't mind Peky -

is men who are brutally honest are sometimes despised because they can sometimes do more damage than good.

Especially to a woman's self-esteem, self-image.

am sure you must have heard of and even asked this question to a guy:
"Does this dress make me look fat?"
"Do you think I should try loosing weight?"
"Do my thighs look big/small?"
And the list goes on - as a woman - there is a point up-to which I DON'T want a guy/girl I am in a relationship to be brutally honest especially when its about something I am sensitive about.

edit: People who are sometimes brutally honest sometimes risk the lives, jobs and relationships of those around them.

Quote from: Alexia6 on September 21, 2012, 01:17:45 PM
I guess what Peky is trying to say - I hope you don't mind Peky -

is men who are brutally honest are sometimes despised because they can sometimes do more damage than good.

Especially to a woman's self-esteem, self-image.

am sure you must have heard of and even asked this question to a guy:
"Does this dress make me look fat?"
"Do you think I should try loosing weight?"
"Do my thighs look big/small?"
And the list goes on - as a woman - there is a point up-to which I DON'T want a guy/girl I am in a relationship to be brutally honest especially when its about something I am sensitive about.

edit: People who are sometimes brutally honest sometimes risk the lives, jobs and relationships of those around them.

Rigth on! You go girl!

The quote it from the character Komarosky who is speaking to Lara in the movie Dr Zhivago.

I do not preach or practice the art of lieying, but yes, I have told a few. Almost all -but few stupid ones- were said to protect someone or myself.

Trough out my life, I found that self-rightous, brutally honest, high-minded people are very hard to live with, so I avoid them.

The Torah's treatment of the topic of truth and falsehood is exquisitely sensitive.
The mitzvah to "distance ourselves from falsehood" is not only a prohibition
against outright verbal lies that cause direct or indirect loss to another, but includes
a prohibition against any gesture or even an act of silence that results in a deceptive
message being understood by the observer.
Even so, the Torah allows one to alter the truth for the sake of pursuing peace,
fulfilling a mitzvah, praising a bride, and maintaining one's humility and modesty.
This leniency is only permitted where the falsehood does not affect anyone else
adversely, there are no other means available, and one does not do it regularly. Finally,
one who strives to be truthful in all his affairs is "walking in God's ways" and helps to
sustain the entire world.

You ever seen a chimp get scared or hurt? He/she would invariable run to another chimp to request and receive reassurances. This is a basic need of mammalian social animals. In you example, my dear Axelle, the fat lover is hurt by her fatness, in pain she/he seeks reassurance from her/his lover.

So, yeah, manipulations, misdirections, omissions, exaggerations, and plain lies....It is not about what one says but how you make another person feel, that is the way we made an impact in other people's -most often our love ones- life.

Perhaps one cannot lie ever, but I am sure that would lead to a  pretty lonely and sterile life.

Just my beliefs

Quote from: Abracadabra on September 22, 2012, 11:23:54 AM
As I said... "Games People Play" ...
Are we staying with basic mammalian responses - or at least attempt to transcend some of this ?!

Axélle
PS: we tend to have moved on just some from Chimps and some other cousins... I hope...
In the end it's a question of awareness – more or less, that is my understanding ;)

If we TG folks have learned anything is but the futility of trying to "transcend" biology

Quote from: Abracadabra on September 22, 2012, 12:07:18 PM
:D I'm a woman with a TS history, 'transcending' my male body, not sure you feel to include me :P

Axxx
PS: BTW... you may notice we are playing a "Game" right now :D

You, like many of us, can transcend the anatomy, that is a piece of cake. However, what I am talking about is the BRAIN biology that determines Your gender identity, or your sexual orientation. Current data on ethology clearly indicates that altruistic behavior is in our biology. Obviously there are pathological states, such as psychopathy, which results in individuals with no altruistic capabilities.

Do we really need to divulge our life history to every person that we meet? Is it all that important to those that don't know us for them to know it? If it isn't is it really any of their business,where is it written that just because someone wants to know something about me that I am required to tell them in the first place? Is it a lie if I don't tell them anything in that case,if I do not give them any information?

Then those that are closest am I going to tell them everything? If they ask a question how much information is really needed to answer the question? Do they really need to know every little detail?
On the other hand is it a deception to leave it out?

Therein lies the dilemma.

Quote from: Alexia6 on September 21, 2012, 01:17:45 PM
I guess what Peky is trying to say - I hope you don't mind Peky -

is men who are brutally honest are sometimes despised because they can sometimes do more damage than good.

Especially to a woman's self-esteem, self-image.

am sure you must have heard of and even asked this question to a guy:
"Does this dress make me look fat?"
"Do you think I should try loosing weight?"
"Do my thighs look big/small?"
And the list goes on - as a woman - there is a point up-to which I DON'T want a guy/girl I am in a relationship to be brutally honest especially when its about something I am sensitive about.

edit: People who are sometimes brutally honest sometimes risk the lives, jobs and relationships of those around them.

There is two sides to those.  All of those are based on an opinion. Every single one of those is a loaded question.  Just taking the first is it better to hear it before going out or is it better to hear it in a public place from someone else? From a married perspective,if it happens either way the one that will end up on the couch is the poor guy. It's the no win situation. (Especially with someone who is ultra sensitive to those questions) Been there.

Better way to defuse it to is to lay the ground work before hand. What women want is positive reinforcement of their looks. Does it hurt to have someone say that they really like an outfit and that it makes them look good and that it's one of the favorite outfits and to that on a number of outfits.
Then they can make a comparison and say I think this other outfit makes you look like a knockout and you know it's one of my favorites.

Or on the other hand have two outfits and you can ask which one looks better on me?

Is it a bad thing to change the parameters of the question? Is it a bad thing to avoid a direct answer to the question in the first place?

Quote from: Abracadabra on September 23, 2012, 12:39:37 AM
Altruism... oh my... a subject for another thread, um.
Altruism is essentially self-serving...

Why?
Because it makes one feel good to help others... transcending ones most immediate needs tends to do just that.
Certain pathologies excluded... some folks like to hurt themselves in preference to feeling joy, they like pain instead.

Not sure what it has to do with lying... maybe lying to make one feel good?
I would think so.
It surely has to do with self-image issues - having to lie to make one feel feel good...

I think it actually happens a lot, come to think of it.
Simple self-deception will of course prevent us to acknowledge that...

Axxx
PS: of course nothing at all wrong with being altruistic, nothing at all, so long we can see it in a perspective other than making us self-righteous... i.e. "you've got to give for what you take..." see below ->

Some altruistic behavior involves telling a lie. Bu that aside

How many times we have to lie to our children to protect them from horror, etc? Of course you could be the kind of parent who do not do that, and just let them be exposed to what ever or tells them like it is, right?  Well, that is your right, to be brutally honest and never lie.

I will rather be not so pure, and tell a fib every now and there for the well being of my love ones. I guess my dear Axelle, we stand apart on this one, so I guess we can agree to disagree OK

It's interesting to note here, the reflections of a guy I know (see, I'm not lying about him being my friend or something, but I do know him and have talked to him many times) who is a pretty well known lyricist for a famous rock band, but beyond that - and pretty much unknown - he has a real calling for translating the poems of Rainer Maria Rilke from the original German into English.  And he says something interesting about German, that's worth noting here.  Asked why he thought that the great (classic) German works did not sell well anymore, and why people don't seem to pay attention to German Culture the way they once had (and it was damn near worshiped).  His reply is/was:  There were so many lies told in German in the Twentieth Century that it will take hundreds and hundreds of years before anyone believes that language again.  Sad really.

So lying does have profound downstream consequences, for people, for countries, for languages, for entire cultures.  But lets remember another pretty profound notion from the Twentieth Century that truth (in in perception as the viewer sees it) is not universal, but relative.  And, along the lines of saying things which the speaking person knows is not the whole truth, intentionally - well perceptions change over time.  Many of the notions we had as kids seem pretty dumb now, or - at the very least - not really well thought out.  So it could be one of those things where the song used to go like that, now it goes like this.

Not always so easy. No, not at all --- depending on the orator.

I was reminded while I was watching Clinton's speech that there was a reason that the classical Liberal Arts college education began the reading of The Cannon with Plato's Gorgias.  It was - and remains - one of the most awesome warnings ever, telling the student that in all the stuff they are about to try to learn and understand that: Just because some schmuck is real good at saying/writing it does not make it true.  Which, as it turns out, is a lesson that our current political/religious/media/social/cultural etc. etc. overloads would sooner not have us learn, hence the demise of 'the classical Liberal Arts education'.  Of course it wasn't much more popular back in the Golden Age of Greece either, which is why they put a cap in the ass of old Socrates for teaching it to people then.

And you skipped the greatest fairy tale of all, the one that is one of the basic foundations of Western Civilization itself, you know the one that starts out with talking snakes and only gets more surreal as it goes on.

And its not just the Germans that love their fairy tales.  Brother's Grimm ain't got nothing on Horatio Alger, rugged independence, 'the myth of the self-made man', 'they hate us for our freedom' and a host of others in the wonderful collection of American fairy tales.  Our own time, in this nation - and even frequently on these boards - people promote the American version of Kinder, Küche, Kirche like it's some immortal truth, and totally uniquely American at that.

/////////

And... the only reply to the question "Does this dress/pants/suit/skirt/whatever make my ass look big" is: It's hardly fair to blame the dress for that.

our current political/religious/media/social/cultural etc. etc. overloads

Heh, we need a circuit breaker of some kind :).

...and connecting a couple of your statements, surely the counter-question is:

Does this dress/pants/suit/skirt/whatever make my ass covetable by neighbours?

Quote from: tekla on September 24, 2012, 09:38:53 AM
Not always so easy. No, not at all --- depending on the orator.

I was reminded while I was watching Clinton's speech that there was a reason that the classical Liberal Arts college education began the reading of The Cannon with Plato's Gorgias.  It was - and remains - one of the most awesome warnings ever, telling the student that in all the stuff they are about to try to learn and understand that: Just because some schmuck is real good at saying/writing it does not make it true.  Which, as it turns out, is a lesson that our current political/religious/media/social/cultural etc. etc. overloads would sooner not have us learn, hence the demise of 'the classical Liberal Arts education'.  Of course it wasn't much more popular back in the Golden Age of Greece either, which is why they put a cap in the ass of old Socrates for teaching it to people then.

It goes back to the old adage / Test everything; retain what is good.

Quote from: Abracadabra on September 24, 2012, 12:57:11 PM
Sorry to say some of those "tests" might just have had you leave the venue via a chimney...
Not everything is that easily tested after all... just saying.

One great way to keep any opposition from spreading their "test-results"...

I agree not everything can be tested by direct imperical eveidence. But in the snow belt I can check the roof to see if I can see footprints on the roof. No footprints well.... (Something's up maybe)

Another way can be testing the one saying it. Do they have agenda? Do they just disagree because they don't believe the other side? Is the evidence forced to fit the facts? Can both sides take the facts and make them say something different? (Did I say I drive myself crazy with all these questions?) AGGGGH another question.

Subjective is the hardest of all to either prove or disprove.

Quote from: Abracadabra on September 24, 2012, 12:57:11 PM

Some lies can go on for quite some time; therefore the old adage:
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time"

Hum,
Axélle

Agreed

Most people who do competitive debate and write professional-level rhetoric will tell you it's a hella lot easier to take the opposite position.

Quote from: tekla on September 24, 2012, 10:19:22 PM
Most people who do competitive debate and write professional-level rhetoric will tell you it's a hella lot easier to take the opposite position.

It sure is. I had a couple of teachers that would have us debate both sides of the issue. We had take first the pros than the cons. The con was always easier to take.

it's A) because you know the opposition arguments before you start, and B) with less emotional investment you have access to greater intellectual rigor.

Quote from: Abracadabra on September 24, 2012, 11:30:15 PM
But isn't it true, as soon as self-image (EGO) gets into it, a "false" position, a lie - even if known somehow... is defended with greater vigour?

Because now it is not so much a question of not to tell a lie/falls position - but a question maintaining self-image...

If self-image is low... the lie has to proof that the opposite is the case...

Unless done with great oratory skill... it is transparent to the listener...
Unless the listener likes to hear the lie - to support their own low self-image.

I hope this makes sense,
Axélle
PS: This is starting to sound more and more philosophical. Time to move the thread?

If self-image is low does it really help in the long run to keep telling the lie? Does the lie itself feed into the low self image?

What I found in myself was that I was comparing myself to everyone else. It doesn't work to well.
No matter how hard I try I will not be a Meg Ryan,a Nancy Wilson,or the latest Cover Girl model.
Neither will 99.99% of the world's population fit those role models. I fit in well with the 80% of the
of the world that is considered average and there's nothing wrong with that.

I would rather be one of the ones that if someone tells me I am looking fat in a dress,that I could be OK with that statement. It could mean one of two things the cut of the dress is wrong for my frame,or I may be gaining weight and it may be a good idea to deal with it now instead of letting it go on for too long when it will be harder to deal with. I can't change something in me if I do not realize that I may have a problem,and no one lets me know. But I can change something if I am made aware of it.

Quote from: Abracadabra on September 25, 2012, 02:02:23 AM

Wow... NOW you hit the nail right on the head!
It may be painful - as most learning happens to be - but it will be healthier in the long run...

Just my own finding... count to ten, walk around the block. Figure out if it was an appropriate thing you've been told, cry if you wish, than go clean the self-deception of your slate - then take it from there.

Thank you for sharing,
Axélle

Getting there is easier said than done. You have to train yourself to be able to learn how to accept those statements. It's still a work in progress for me. I was hypersensitive. All you had to do was look at me "wrong". My poor cat was "watered" far more often then he should have been. Not to sure he appreciated it. At one point it happened every single day for well over two years.
It's a miserable way to live.

It's nowhere near as bad now,but I do notice I am far more sensitive if I am having a really hard time. What do I find I'm doing? I'm starting to play those all too familiar,well worn tapes that I have heard a thousand times before. (They really are getting annoying)

Quote from: tekla on September 24, 2012, 10:51:41 PM
it's A) because you know the opposition arguments before you start, and B) with less emotional investment you have access to greater intellectual rigor.

The pro side can be argued effectively only if one does two things. A) Emotion needs to be left out,and B) Knowing the weaknesses of your own arguments.

With this I will leave it for Axelle's sake because we are starting to get off track.