Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I'm more than sick to hear everything on the streets 'It's a MAN, it's a DUDE, it's a GUY, TRAVELO, ->-bleeped-<-, what's this CREATURE, what's this THING, what is THIS, so DISGUSTING, BERK, ->-bleeped-<-, it's a MAN WITH SILICON TITS, PERVERT' and other crap more

I'm more than SICK, SICK N SICK hearing those every day!  >:(

I generally ignore and make as if I don't hear but the amount this has accumulated in me has become at a critical  unbarable point now and dunno how to evacuate this heavy negative feelings trapped inside me. Every effing day I go out in public is like I have to confront the entire hostile world EVERYDAY! pffff!!

I wish I could be like her, I ADMIRE her a lot and is my idol. But I'd never have the guts to do that, fear of being beaten, at least I could defend verbally but that too I'm too weak mentally.  :embarrassed:

REALLY WISH I COULD BE LIKE HER
Video here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rXSS4hWswk#)

Do you get the same as me too? What do they tell you? What do you do in turn?

I look at it that every time I'm clocked and called out I have to be an ambassador for my trans brothers and sisters.  I need to demonstrate that I'm just a normal woman trying to live my life, I'm not special.  Nor worthy of ridicule.  That's also why when I'm out I suck up every ounce of confidence I have.

Does that mean I don't later try to find mental relief by thinking things like, "at least I'm more lady like than she was, calling me out like that!"?  No.

Yeah it's lousy.  I was on a bus and for several blocks this nasty woman derided me saying, "if men were meant to be women he'd of given em' t**s". Packed bus too.  No one came to my aid.  Same when this other woman tried angleing her smartphone at me so she could take my picture without me noticing.  I just gave her a knowing look and thought to myself, "Want to know what it's like to be a celebrity? BE TRANS!"

As I'm sure you know, the main thing bullies are looking for is a reaction.  So I will not do anything to them but be a good ambassador for my people.  But I'll also come here and grouse.  Or go to my trans group and grouse.  Violence only leads to bad times.

Trans women are tough. Some of the toughest people I know are trans women. We have to be.

But we don't need violence to show how tough we are.

That being said, if anyone threatens you with violence or lays a hand on you, that's a crime, whether you're trans or not. Report it.

I've been fortunate, only middle-aged men have glared at me, no one has taunted me (yet).

Part of my job is to understand people, and "read between the lines" of what they're saying/doing in order to find out what it is that they need, and then (if possible) provide that need.

I think most people are simply reacting with fear (which is read as "hate"--hate is a better form of fear for them than merely cowering in a corner), and that fear is not based on reason, but on what they *imagine* us to be like.

Possible responses:

Camera lady: Turn toward her, smile, and say, "If you'd like a picture, just ask so I can smile."

Glaring men: Make eye contact, smile and nod or wave (not flamboyantly, but how a woman would wave).

Woman who said "...given 'em tits": "But God did give men tits. Men have nipples, they have mammary glands, they're just not active because of the testosterone."

And of course, there's always the stoic response of not saying or doing anything...like when a small dog is yapping, one ignores it lest the dog think he's more important than he really is.

Can't say I've ever had it happen to me. But I'm fairly sure if it did, I'd come up with some kind of pithy retort - that's just the kind of person I am.

I have only ever had two incidents.  One was with two teen girls, who would point and laugh.  It was in Walmart so I made sure I passed them several times.  Each time I passed them, I would just smile and wave.  They stopped.

The other time was the same store.  A woman saw me, and motioned to her friend.  They had the look of shock and discuss on their faces.  As I passed, I said "Take a picture.  It lasts longer!"

I confront them if I see them.  They always seem to just back down.

Keep in mind that many of these people have issues of their own.

They openly attack others in attempts to hide their own insecurities.

If you're sick sick sick of it then why are you continuing with your transition? People say they transition to live a happy life socially, but how can this be true when you are being abused 24/7 and no one is treating you like a woman?

Quote from: 8888 on October 01, 2012, 12:04:22 PM
If you're sick sick sick of it then why are you continuing with your transition? People say they transition to live a happy life socially, but how can this be true when you are being abused 24/7 and no one is treating you like a woman?

because being true to yourself is better than appeasing the insecurities of others.

AFAIK I have never been clocked but that sounds awful  :-\

Maybe you could work on your makeup, outfit and stuff so you pass better. Cause unfortunately people are jerks.

People tend to treat me like a kind of celebrity, whether they know I am a man or not. They like me, and I have never met any person giving me negative comment. I think people here are very accepting.
Some of my photos with my old frineds or strangers.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi943.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fad278%2Fbarbie_pictures%2FOutdoors%2F20120916.jpg&hash=7006509c063ca7e8608c90a89fc3498197a4b1bc) (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi943.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fad278%2Fbarbie_pictures%2FOutdoors%2F20120927n.jpg&hash=2a4118ac6e4ea3badfc6c9ec5a19c32cb5a405df) (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi943.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fad278%2Fbarbie_pictures%2FOutdoors%2F6951002B-609E-4F72-88D6-624ECDAA885C-365-0000001CB703469E.jpg&hash=90946f730506b53cdb68db00109dcb19d753e368) (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi943.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fad278%2Fbarbie_pictures%2FOutdoors%2F158A4002-8125-4BDD-8412-3DCC34BF49E2-365-0000001CAFAB6874.jpg&hash=bd6e29defaf604d8452263501b0dcadc12b12971) (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi943.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fad278%2Fbarbie_pictures%2FOutdoors%2F20120815in.jpg&hash=dbbce20ccf7a60588baa3d360c8213788aecaf0e)

Barbie~~

I haven't had those problems, though I am sure I would confront it if I did.  Not physically or verbally abusive but I kind of have a charm when dealing with those people ;)  I know how to win the battle.  Much like the above poster who just waved and smiled.

I an Puerto Rican, with very light white skin.  So I kind of had to deal with people bothering me about being "gringo".  Saying I wasn't spanish ect ect.  I kind of found my own way of dealing with them  ;D in a way that they would laugh and I would laugh and all would be friendly.

People tend to want to get violent, but most can be pacified to actually smiling about their own stupidity.  Humbled if you will.

Just smile & wave or say "Thanks!" Letting them know you aren't phased by it, or at least pretending you aren't, will take out any sort of pleasure they get from hurting someones feelings.

People like that are messed up themselves. Recently a boy in high school who tormented me ended up committing suicide, which is really sad. & I thought maybe he had a rough life & he bullied me to let out his frustration & sadness? No one is a bully, or racist or transphobic because they wanna be. Don't let them make you feel bad about yourself because they feel bad about themselves & wanna take it out on you.

Quote from: TessaM on October 01, 2012, 12:43:46 PM
LMAO people putting you down cause your white :p

Yes, even white people get descriminated against. I have had many people assault me because I am white. I hate all forms of social injustice.

Quote from: TessaM on October 01, 2012, 12:19:08 PM
-1
Why would you NOT continue with transition? What if you were born with a face deformity, and people ridiculed you in public. Or if your were paraplegic. It is THEIR problem, not yours. They are the inconsiderate jerks, not you.

Bad example, face deformity cannot be hidden while your mindset can. Besides she can always try androgynous.

Quote from: TessaM on October 01, 2012, 02:12:15 PM
k
I dont think anyone should have to hide who they are, it is the people that are ridiculing you who have the problem. It seemed really weird from my perspective to see someone on a trans forum telling someone else to stay closeted or take a step back with transition. Speaking for myself here, I would much rather be hated for who I am than loved for what I am not. I can imagine that the OP would rather present as female and deal with the consequences (presumably just immature brats calling her out in public) than have to suffacate in the closet. (Suicide?)

Perfectly said!  :)

I seem to get weird looks or comments once or twice a year. I am lucky I am not as tall as that lady in the video. I also make sure to wear flats as I seem to get more comments when I wear the heels. Flats make me a little shorter.  ;)
Best we can do thought is grin and bear it as we do are damned best to save up for facial feminization surgery. Unfortunately the more unpassable you are then the more confrontations you are going to have with rude jerks. Work 2 jobs if you have too, but get the surgeries you need to make your life better.

Quote from: 8888 on October 01, 2012, 12:04:22 PM
If you're sick sick sick of it then why are you continuing with your transition? People say they transition to live a happy life socially, but how can this be true when you are being abused 24/7 and no one is treating you like a woman?

you've missed the point of transition if you believe that.

The point of transitioning is because you will curl up and die if you live another day in your birth gender.
The point of transitioning is to become the gender you identify with

The point of transitioning IS NOT to feel all happy inside all the time and skip and dance and expect everyone to hug, love, and embrace you all the time. Transitioning is not always about other people either...it's about the person who is transitioning as well.

If you believe that, you will have a very difficult transition.

Quote from: ShaunaNinjagirl on October 01, 2012, 02:17:48 PM
I seem to get weird looks or comments once or twice a year.........best to save up for facial feminization surgery.

Really? You look damned good already in those photos you posted. FFS on top of that? They'll be queuing.  :laugh:

 ;D
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1166.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq619%2FShaunaNinjagirl%2Focean_zps071be477.jpg&hash=ecc26526286b45214ccc5ec53e80cac3d4e24ad1)

Thanks. I do have my good days, but there are still days were I sometimes get a comment like, Is that a man, or something equally depressing. Doesn't happen more that twice a year but still it does hurt. Usually leaves me depressed for a day and then I am fine after a good nights sleep. I still want to be as passable as I can and so I think that FFS is a great idea for any MTF

Quote from: TessaM on October 01, 2012, 02:12:15 PM
k
I dont think anyone should have to hide who they are, it is the people that are ridiculing you who have the problem. It seemed really weird from my perspective to see someone on a trans forum telling someone else to stay closeted or take a step back with transition. Speaking for myself here, I would much rather be hated for who I am than loved for what I am not. I can imagine that the OP would rather present as female and deal with the consequences (presumably just immature brats calling her out in public) than have to suffacate in the closet. (Suicide?)

She has the power to stop this from happening. There is no switch to flick that will suddenly make everyone tolerate her, if she wants it to stop she can only do it by changing herself, which could mean detransitioning, presenting androgenously or improving her passability.

Quote from: 8888 on October 01, 2012, 03:39:18 PM
She has the power to stop this from happening. There is no switch to flick that will suddenly make everyone tolerate her, if she wants it to stop she can only do it by changing herself, which could mean detransitioning, presenting androgenously or improving her passability.

Or, by doing what she can to educate the ignorant. It will not stop all the hate, but it will help a lot.

Quote from: 8888 on October 01, 2012, 03:39:18 PM
She has the power to stop this from happening. There is no switch to flick that will suddenly make everyone tolerate her, if she wants it to stop she can only do it by changing herself, which could mean detransitioning, presenting androgenously or improving her passability.

again, you miss the point of transitioning.

People don't transition to make people smile at them more. They transition to become the gender they feel identified with. Transition should never be judged on how the public reacts.

That would be counter productive

I've never heard anybody say things like this out loud... but I can hear all of their thoughts and they are mean!
..  but then I can't tell if I'm sookie Stackhouse or I'm crazy? its exhausting either way

Quote from: oZma on October 01, 2012, 04:48:32 PM
I've never heard anybody say things like this out loud... but I can hear all of their thoughts.
..  but then I can't tell if I'm sookie Stackhouse or I'm crazy? its exhausting either way

Do you have a fairy vagina? It's a prerequisite for mind reading.  :)

I've never once experienced anything like what the OP is talking about and frankly I'm horrified that such things would even occur. The closest I've ever seen to anything like this is, on a public bus. There was an older trans woman who didn't really "pass"and her clothes were an interesting choice. A couple of young school girls s->-bleeped-<-ed at her. The lady didn't seem aware, or didn't care. Young school girls seem spend about 87% of their lives s->-bleeped-<-ing about something.

Quote from: Annah on October 01, 2012, 02:21:29 PM
The point of transitioning is because you will curl up and die if you live another day in your birth gender.
The point of transitioning is to become the gender you identify with

Now I feel weird for not being suicidal.  ???

I guess it's because I know transition will be coming soon.

Anyway, I haven't ever been insulted for being trans (maybe because I'm only out to 5 people). However, I've been assaulted for being "gay". I took 4 punches to the head before doing anything. I tried really hard not to resort to violence, but I realized that no one was going to help me, so I broke the guy's arm.... I wasn't proud of it, but no one at school is going to attack me ever again now.

What really pissed me off was that one doodyhead smiled and pulled out a camera. What the hell?! I wanted to break his jaw.  >:(

Quote from: Tesla on October 01, 2012, 04:52:06 PM
Do you have a fairy vagina? It's a prerequisite for mind reading.  :)

Yo, I laughed so freaking hard when I read this

you deserve +3,000,000 points! :P

I've had my fair share of snickers (not the chocolate kind) and pointing in the daytime, but this is mostly from teenagers who have yet to learn how to behave properly. It doesn't happen any more. I am very lucky.

In the first week of going full-time a nasty drunk man came and told me I was sick, pretending to be a woman. I Just ignored him, and my friend told him to go away and made him feel guilty for picking on people.

There are some terrible videos of people verbally abusing trans women in public that I found online pre-transition. I guess I went looking for them wondering what to expect for myself, though nothing that bad has ever happened to me. It is probably something to do with the fact that I avoid going out at night much. It's a pity, people should be able to go anywhere without fear of being abused, and I am a bit scared to do it sometimes.

Wow....I love all your photos Barbie. I think Koreans and East Asians in general tend not to react to this sort of thing with anything other than curiosity. Westerners are more likely to yell out nastiness at strangers. That said, the social pressure on trans women in the Asian countries I have lived in (Japan and Taiwan) seems a lot worse, and there is less legal protection overall against discrimination.

Quote from: ShaunaNinjagirl on October 01, 2012, 03:32:48 PM
;D
Thanks. I do have my good days, but there are still days were I sometimes get a comment like, Is that a man, or something equally depressing. Doesn't happen more that twice a year but still it does hurt. Usually leaves me depressed for a day and then I am fine after a good nights sleep. I still want to be as passable as I can and so I think that FFS is a great idea for any MTF

You could be one of my Italian cousins. I'm coming from a different direction to you as I had my FFS done first, 15 years ago. Passing was more important to me. I'm only now going for SRS.

Verbal insults are devastating. It would be difficult for me to laugh off something like that.

If your Italian you could pretend you are the mafia,  ;D That could end negative comments, lol.
I am mostly french with a little bit of (1/16) north american indian. I used to work for Italians though. They worked - all the time. When I worked for them - I worked very hard. They were very good people though. Plus I loved the homemade Italian cooking I got sometimes. Did you have any pics of your FFS you'd be willing to share privately Tesla. I am curious now 8)

Quote from: ShaunaNinjagirl on October 01, 2012, 03:32:48 PM
;D
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1166.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq619%2FShaunaNinjagirl%2Focean_zps071be477.jpg&hash=ecc26526286b45214ccc5ec53e80cac3d4e24ad1)

Thanks. I do have my good days, but there are still days were I sometimes get a comment like, Is that a man, or something equally depressing. Doesn't happen more that twice a year but still it does hurt. Usually leaves me depressed for a day and then I am fine after a good nights sleep. I still want to be as passable as I can and so I think that FFS is a great idea for any MTF

If anyone sees you as anything other than a lovely lady I might as well slap em real hard.  Their eyes aint working right.

Thanks  :angel: I generally have things pretty easy. I do have bad days sometimes, everybody does. I don't take it personally. I usually have the 24 hour blues. Then I feel good again. I do feel tempted to slap them myself though  :D

Clubbing, yay, I'll be right over (You're right about Italians, work work work)

I feel awful for everyone from all walks of life who get bullied. Let me say that I have yet to get actually into transition and get out in public, and so reading all of this gives me good ideas for being able to handle it well. There is indeed a time to openly advocate for oneself, and there is a time for a person, whether trans or lesbian, bi, gay, pan, whatever they are...to defend themselves if they should be in danger.

When it comes to the fact that we live in a world where coming to defend someone else is starting to trend a bit more, there are those times where people refuse to play the good samaritan just because it's the right thing to do. Let me tell all of you that you each carry worth and value into this world. Each of you is someone special here on earth, and each of you have one or more people who care about you.

In my time prior to acknowledging that I am trans, I have had many problems in the form of people having negative reactions to me, blaming all sorts of non-sense for their reasoning. What I have recently found out when I look at myself through other people's eyes, I find that they see something and / or someone different and that observation scares them. They knew something about me that I was repressing, and I think it was my voice (mostly a female quality) and my mannerisms which were not really the male alpha type.

In that light, I can in some ways, identify with all of you who have been bullied or "clocked". I think I am just discovering that a trans person can be clocked without even dressing or looking the part of a MTF or FTM, and even prior to transition if certain things just stick out if only because it's who you are and you are only being yourself. Back in grade school, people started calling me "Mr." followed by my last name. I told them I hated it, and had real vile reactions to it. THAT was probably when I should have picked up on the fact that I shouldn't repress it anymore. I did anyway.

In any case, I want to pass on this video to all of you because it goes right along with this topic. John Quinones at ABC TV does a show called "What Would YOU Do?" This episode features Carmen Carerra as herself in a restaurant where a customer clocks her and well..watch to see what happens: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MF6XrANu0w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MF6XrANu0w)

Quote from: ShaunaNinjagirl on October 01, 2012, 06:08:28 PM
If your Italian you could pretend you are the mafia,  ;D That could end negative comments, lol.
I am mostly french with a little bit of (1/16) north american indian. I used to work for Italians though. They worked - all the time. When I worked for them - I worked very hard. They were very good people though. Plus I loved the homemade Italian cooking I got sometimes. Did you have any pics of your FFS you'd be willing to share privately Tesla. I am curious now 8)

My ancestry is more like 1/2 Italian+1/4 Russian+1/4 British. I never took any clinical photos of my FFS, but I'll see if I can dig out some other photos of me that I like. However, I'm going back for further FFS refinements this and next year as I'm not completetly satisfied with the aesthetics.

Quote from: Ms. OBrien on October 01, 2012, 10:12:45 AM
It was in Walmart so I made sure I passed them several times.  Each time I passed them, I would just smile and wave.  They stopped.


I confront them if I see them.  They always seem to just back down.

OMG!! Wal-Mart is like the clocking station. I hated working there. I worked in the electronics section and I swear people would come to Wal-Mart JUST to see ME... not buying a damn thing. It was so annoying. Even had fights with a few customers.

Quote from: Kadri on October 01, 2012, 05:33:11 PMWow....I love all your photos Barbie. I think Koreans and East Asians in general tend not to react to this sort of thing with anything other than curiosity. Westerners are more likely to yell out nastiness at strangers. That said, the social pressure on trans women in the Asian countries I have lived in (Japan and Taiwan) seems a lot worse, and there is less legal protection overall against discrimination.

Yes. Kadri. I agree.

There are several factors that may explain why people here accept me so well.

One factor  is that Korea is a very homogeneous country in ethnicity. I heard that some people discriminate against foreign workers whose number has been increasing dramatically recently. Korean goverment also tries hard to minimize bully against students of foreingers, but bully has been chronic problems even among Korean kids. Nevertheless, most people here do not know how to assault strangers verbally or physically.

The second factor is religion. When I was in the US, I met a few Catholics who directly expressed their hatred to me. In Korea. Catholics, together with Buddhists, are one of the most open-minded group of people. Here nobody gave me negative comment based on their religion.

Third is that I am old and have a socially-esteemed job (university professor). Even very weird teen girls can not dare to say anthing to me in Korean society where hierarchy is primarily based on age. And, I found that young people here are more open-minded and do not care so much about what I wear. However, some of my colleagues recommend me to wear conservatively at least within the campus, and I generally accept their request.

Legal system to protect gender minority is still being developed here in Korea, but current law is already enough for me to face any worst case.

Barbie~~

Quote from: Dawn Heart on October 01, 2012, 06:44:18 PM

In any case, I want to pass on this video to all of you because it goes right along with this topic. John Quinones at ABC TV does a show called "What Would YOU Do?" This episode features Carmen Carerra as herself in a restaurant where a customer clocks her and well..watch to see what happens: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MF6XrANu0w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MF6XrANu0w)

Best video ever!
Honestly, I would have done something similar to the last guy.

Quote from: TessaM on October 01, 2012, 12:43:46 PM
LMAO people putting you down cause your white :p
Arent most Puerto Ricans "white?" Ive read that a lot have pure spanish or Corsican heritage...
ANYWAYS...
Similar to you, ive never EVER had to deal with this in public... maybe its because I pass so well... BUT also like you ive been given crap for other things. Ive had people give me serious crap because I was speaking english (God dam Quebec!) and because I have an Italian sticker on my car, im apperantly a "wop b**ch." So in a way, im kinda happy? LOL!

What do you mean "you pass so well...," no big accomplishment, you are a beautiful girl alright

Quote from: Kadri on October 01, 2012, 05:33:11 PM
There are some terrible videos of people verbally abusing trans women in public that I found online pre-transition. I guess I went looking for them wondering what to expect for myself, though nothing that bad has ever happened to me. It is probably something to do with the fact that I avoid going out at night much. It's a pity, people should be able to go anywhere without fear of being abused, and I am a bit scared to do it sometimes.

Yes. Kadri. Precaution is always better. At any insecure place, I seldom go out alone. While wearing 5-inch heels, I am so much noticeable, but I can not run fast to escape from any potential threat. In this case, I have friends and colleagues who gladly go out with me. Still a few guys sometimes try to make a pass at me, but I just enjoy or ignore it.

Barbie~~

Sometimes it can be seriously frustrating to get comments and weird looks from people.

The other day while out in boy mode at work there 3 women about my age maybe younger who started staring at me while in the cafeteria.

They were like is it a boy/girl? one was like he is a girl the other was like no he's gay!

I almost choked on my food but didn't give any reactions to them and just ignored them.

As for need to transition - transitioning is not just about other people and how they react to you but also about how they you see yourself.
which is why while out in boy mode I am just an awkward mess especially since I find it very suffocating to be in boy mode.

Shauna - you totally pass!!!

Where I live, appearances mean a lot, so most people will act polite and respectful to your face at least, but once out of sight, many of them resort to the jokes and crap that really bother me as they have no problem outing me to whoever. I've already decided that trying to make friends where I live is just not worth the bother because of it all. 

It's rare I get clocked any more. Walking with confidence is a big help. That said, it's also a good thing to invest in something else to walk with in case things go south. Also sometimes those looks we get may not be what we think they are, we are so accustomed to thinking people are always out to get us that that look may be one of attraction. You never know. However when it comes to people throwing out insults, it's best to just let it roll off your back. Words hurt, but not as much as being beaten and left for dead.

Quote from: Alexia6 on October 01, 2012, 11:09:25 PM
Sometimes it can be seriously frustrating to get comments and weird looks from people.

The other day while out in boy mode at work there 3 women about my age maybe younger who started staring at me while in the cafeteria.

I was immune to staring and laughing because of living in odd parts of China. People would laugh at me just because I was a huge tall man with a big nose and oddly coloured hair. This made me immune to the frustration of starers in the early stages of transition. Actually I found hardly anyone looked at me as a woman compared to some places I had lived when i was a man. 

I have to admit that now I would be upset about it now, after a year of being full time.  It might knock me out for a few days.

I totally and completely don't care what people say about me.

I don't react and I don't follow through because I don't care what they say.

How does that help?

Firstly I'm a very confident person and being so means that people 'pick up' on that. I refuse to be intimidated and people pick up on that. I really don't get insulted buy mindless jerks, and people pick up on that.

I practiced and practiced being confident. It works, keep testing your self, it gets easier.

Today I took a cab to another place I work at for a meeting. The driver was rude and sexist to  me, IMO, I told him to reverse to the cab rank immediately as I had left my purse behind and couldn't pay. He did. I got out and went to the next cab.

I told that cab driver that the previous one was a sexist jerk that I didn't feel safe with him. He immediately radioed my comment in to the base.

I'm a human being. I have rights. No one has the right to insult me. If some sexist jerk suggests that I can 'help him out' I'll rip his testicles off and feed them to it, if I feel kind.

You have rights. Be strong, but PRACTICE being strong.


JMO
Cindy

Lol yup, I got lots of gay guy comments when I was at around 5 months hrt, i think I was beginning to look quite feminine at that stage and it threw some people a little. No one said anything rude but, at parties I was asked a few times if my friend was my boyfriend, or was I gay, do you like boys or girls etc lol. Androgynous people can be quite confusing for some people :)

I think I recall seeing this observation elsewhere but the people who have given me grief have typically been from a low socio-economic status.  It's like they clock me and think "Ooooh!  There is someone I can get!"

I'm not making a blanket startement here.  Some have been kind enough to say, "Excuse miss, do you have some change?"  Course then there was that time when the guy clocked me soon after begging and started to make vey scary and dirty propositions to me.  I was like 1 block from my apartment at the time.  Definitely an argument for carrying pepper spray or something.

Golly I've been through a lot. It would be nice to blend in better.  All this clocking sucks. (-_-)

Anyone says anything to me they will get similar treatment to that which Cindy dished out or "6 million of my relatives left via the chimney so you can just F*** off!"

To be clear, I didn't have pepper spray for that guy.  I was able to walk away.  Still, feel I was lucky.

Well I don't pass, doubt that I ever will, but I dress better than they do so I can feel superior and turn and walk away, with my head held high

I would recommend using an mp3 player. I don't really get insults or ever cloaked but it's just advice. Turn the volume on it up so you hear your favorite music rather than insults. =)

I put insults into several groups to deal with them easier:

1: Teenagers, as has already been mentioned teenagers havn't developed social skills, they constantly feel the need to belittle others to raise their social standing amongst their peer group. I therefore believe that teenagers aren't worthy of my attention.

2: Drunk people, drunks are obnoxious to many people who don't deserve their scorn, I see abusive drunks as lower than pond scum so once again not worthy of my attention.
I socialise with some heavy drinkers & they are great, they are the kind of people that get happy when drunk & love the world & everything in it but woe betide anyone that gives me abuse when they're around.
My only concern is that in their efforts to ensure my safety & prevent abuse they may escalate an incident, i've voiced this concern to a few of them & they let me decide if abuse needs to be dealt with or ignored, whatever my choice they support it.

3: Strangers in the street, these are the ones that annoy me, they don't have the excuse of being drunk to cover their rudeness & they are mostly adults, if they stare then I stare back with raised eyebrows & it makes them uncomfortable (good).
Most comments get ignored, recently if I respond I will simply ask what gives them the right to judge me for having a medical condition treated, if there are other people around i'll raise my voice so others can hear, so far everyone asked that has shuffled away.
People don't like their intolerance being put on display for everyone around to see.

If people say you should give up transition because of the ignorant, rude comments they are wrong, wrong, wrong!
It's not a case of working harder on make-up, no matter how good my make-up is my big nose & slightly masculine jaw can't be hidden by any amount of make-up, most people recommend waiting until you've been on HRT for quite a while before undergoing FFS & this is with very good reasons.
I know i'll have to put up with this kind of ignorance for quite a while longer as i'm not on HRT yet & even when I start HRT it will take time to have any noticable change but I refuse to be chased into hiding due to small minded people, I also refuse to give up on transition because of these people, i'm doing this so I can be comfortable with myself, this is not for the benifit of others so whilst their comments can be hurtfull they will not have any long lasting effect on me.

Don't let them wear you down
Best wishes wrapped in a big hug

Jayne

never get that kind of comment,but if they dare mess with me i'll treat them the same as how exactly they treat me ;D

i'll treat them the same as how exactly they treat me

So, you let other people control your behavior?

Quote from: tekla on October 02, 2012, 01:39:18 PM
i'll treat them the same as how exactly they treat me

So, you let other people control your behavior?

Hmmm I didn't see that at all. I would refrain from reading into things that may not be there, its a bad habit.

Quote from: tekla on October 02, 2012, 01:39:18 PM
i'll treat them the same as how exactly they treat me

So, you let other people control your behavior?

So, you let other people feel free to mess with you huh?:icon_pissed: that's the way i am,i don't insult people first,that means i won't act like a dick curse random people for fun,but i won't be quiet if anyone starts to mess with me,that's it :icon_wave:

Saya19, there seems to be an enormous yellow block  every time you post. Any chance you could make it smaller?

Quote from: Isabelle on October 02, 2012, 03:06:52 PM
Saya19, there seems to be an enormous yellow block  every time you post. Any chance you could make it smaller?

i'll try to find a smaller one ;)

Quote from: SaYa19 on October 02, 2012, 03:08:56 PM
i'll try to find a smaller one ;)

here ya go

http://imageshack.us/a/img688/3959/mosh.jpg (http://imageshack.us/a/img688/3959/mosh.jpg)

That's much better, thank you :)

you're welcome :D

What I'm gonna say will probably be considered a mean cis-supremacist comment but in all honestly if you know for a fact that you will never really pass for a woman, never be treated as such and always suffer deeply from it how can dysphoria, however severe ever be considered worst than the life of suffering and misery transition will bring? This is an honest question please don't be angry at me.

Quote from: Seyranna on October 03, 2012, 11:05:43 AM
What I'm gonna say will probably be considered a mean cis-supremacist comment but in all honestly if you know for a fact that you will never really pass for a woman, never be treated as such and always suffer deeply from it how can dysphoria, however severe ever be considered worst than the life of suffering and misery transition will bring? This is an honest question please don't be angry at me.

For me, I would much rather live as a masculine looking woman, then a woman in a man's body. I would rather suffer through insults than suffer with being trapped. Just my opinion.

Quote from: Seyranna on October 03, 2012, 11:05:43 AM
What I'm gonna say will probably be considered a mean cis-supremacist comment but in all honestly if you know for a fact that you will never really pass for a woman, never be treated as such and always suffer deeply from it how can dysphoria, however severe ever be considered worst than the life of suffering and misery transition will bring? This is an honest question please don't be angry at me.

If their dysphoria is severe enough, I imagine they will learn to deal with it. And besides, no one knows how passable they will become with time.  I never thought I would be able to, but for the most part, so long as its sort of dark, I do ok with vision impaired people. Either way, I think the op has likely gone over this in their heads enough and probably don't need it hashed out so much on here.

Quote from: Seyranna on October 03, 2012, 11:05:43 AM
What I'm gonna say will probably be considered a mean cis-supremacist comment but in all honestly if you know for a fact that you will never really pass for a woman, never be treated as such and always suffer deeply from it how can dysphoria, however severe ever be considered worst than the life of suffering and misery transition will bring? This is an honest question please don't be angry at me.

Honestly I don't understand your response enough for it to be offensive. I think though you are responding with another one of those "why bother if you won't pass" spiels. My response to that is this, why should one give up over that? There are a bevy of ways to pass, confidence being one of the biggest ones. There are plenty of masculine women out there. Hell I go out full fem minus the makeup and this 6'2 girl passes all the time now. Here's the secret. Confidence. Something I honestly don't understand why so many here want to tear down in others.

Quote from: Seyranna on October 03, 2012, 11:05:43 AM
What I'm gonna say will probably be considered a mean cis-supremacist comment but in all honestly if you know for a fact that you will never really pass for a woman, never be treated as such and always suffer deeply from it how can dysphoria, however severe ever be considered worst than the life of suffering and misery transition will bring? This is an honest question please don't be angry at me.

I know a number of trans women who will never pass, yet daily they celebrate their opportunity to live while expressing their true gender. Too early to tell, but I may end up being one of these. To me, that would still be preferable to being seen by everyone as a cis male.

Quote from: Seyranna on October 03, 2012, 11:05:43 AM
if you know for a fact that you will never really pass for a woman, never be treated as such and always suffer deeply from it how can dysphoria, however severe ever be considered worst than the life of suffering and misery transition will bring?

I don't know but I'm guessing, even if someone is totally unpassable, they find the discomfort from their dysphoria to be lessened when they feel they are presenting as female, regardless of how they're perceived. For those whom the opposite to is true, again just guessing, I imagine they detransition, one way or another.

When I was waiting at the council today I had a woman sat either side, I wasn't presenting as female but I had my bright pink nail varnish on.
The woman on my right saw it & moved about 5 seats away! The one on my left didn't have another seat to move to so she shuffled across her seat to get as far away as possible, by the time I was called she was almost falling off her seat.
This woman & her friend were speaking in a language i'm not familiar with but they seemed oblivious to their universal body language, here's a tip, regardless of what language you speak if you & your friend point at someone when you think they're not looking & giggle or laugh at them then congratulations, you've just broken through the language barrier you ignorant *******

Edited to remove swearing, sorry

Quote from: Seyranna on October 03, 2012, 11:05:43 AM
What I'm gonna say will probably be considered a mean cis-supremacist comment but in all honestly if you know for a fact that you will never really pass for a woman, never be treated as such and always suffer deeply from it how can dysphoria, however severe ever be considered worst than the life of suffering and misery transition will bring? This is an honest question please don't be angry at me.

For all but the most fortunate people we all have to go through a very difficult transition stage, do you wait until you're getting looks or abuse for being a feminine man or do you put up with looks & insults for being a butch woman who's unfortunate to have certain male features?
If passing is a requirement of being female then i know several women who should be forced to transition to being men.
To find people on a forum such as this saying that people should give up if the going gets hard is gob smacking, people come here for support not to be made to feel worse about themselves

QuoteTo find people on a forum such as this saying that people should give up if the going gets hard is gob smacking

She never said anything of the sort. She asked a simple question about the nature of other peoples dysphoria. jeeze lady, cool your jets.

(also.. calling people bitches in a (public) thread about how bad public insults are, is as hilarious as it is ironic )

Quote from: Jayne on October 03, 2012, 05:30:58 PM
When I was waiting at the council today I had a woman sat either side, I wasn't presenting as female but I had my bright pink nail varnish on.
The woman on my right saw it & moved about 5 seats away! The one on my left didn't have another seat to move to so she shuffled across her seat to get as far away as possible, by the time I was called she was almost falling off her seat.
This woman & her friend were speaking in a language i'm not familiar with but they seemed oblivious to their universal body language, here's a tip, regardless of what language you speak if you & your friend point at someone when you think they're not looking & giggle or laugh at them then congratulations, you've just broken through the language barrier you ignorant bitches

*hugs* sorry you had to deal with that, some people are just totally mean.

Quote from: Isabelle on October 03, 2012, 05:43:35 PM
She never said anything of the sort. She asked a simple question about the nature of other peoples dysphoria. jeeze lady, cool your jets.

(also.. calling people ******* in a (public) thread about how bad public insults are, is as hilarious as it is ironic )

How is saying that I consider these 2 women ******* hilarious? please enlighten me what's so funny about this?
You'll have to excuse me if i'm not full of the joys of spring but after waiting for about half an hour having to try to ignore this despicible behaviour whilst fighting back the tears i'm hardly going to be full of praise for these people.
I've lost my home due to recieving threats about being trans, my belongings have been stolen, the police won't take action & i've been made redundant in the space of 2 months so my tolerance levels for people like this is close to zero right now, the person I saw today strongly recommended that I seek medical attention because of my emotional state.
I'm right at the end of my rope right now & find someone saying my intolerance of this intolerance is hilarious is beyond insulting.

QuoteHow is saying that I consider these 2 women bitches hilarious? please enlighten me what's so funny about this?

I didnt say it is hilarious, I said it is as hilarious as it is ironic. If you cant see the irony then, for the same reason, you wont see the humour. I'm sorry you've had a tough time. I really am. I didn't mean to offend you.

Quote from: Seyranna on October 03, 2012, 11:05:43 AM
What I'm gonna say will probably be considered a mean cis-supremacist comment but in all honestly if you know for a fact that you will never really pass for a woman, never be treated as such and always suffer deeply from it how can dysphoria, however severe ever be considered worst than the life of suffering and misery transition will bring? This is an honest question please don't be angry at me.

I don't understand either, that sounds very terrible.  :-\

Quote from: Snowpaw on October 03, 2012, 11:49:11 AM
Honestly I don't understand your response enough for it to be offensive. I think though you are responding with another one of those "why bother if you won't pass" spiels. My response to that is this, why should one give up over that? There are a bevy of ways to pass, confidence being one of the biggest ones. There are plenty of masculine women out there. Hell I go out full fem minus the makeup and this 6'2 girl passes all the time now. Here's the secret. Confidence. Something I honestly don't understand why so many here want to tear down in others.

I'll second the confidence idea. I believe myself to be less than physically passable, but I pass. And the only reason I can find for this is that I am confident - 100% confident in my identity as a woman.

Luckily in the periods I transitioned I have only had two incidents at being "outed" in public. Both in the United Kingdom. One was in Exeter crossing the street on a pelican crossing on route to my beautician and the second time in Oxford Street.

I think the first was the worse. As I was crossing the road, I got caught in a huge gust of wind, there were two young men in a car stopped at the crossing to let me cross, and I started over in my heels in a green shirt dress and leggings (I think I was en route for a full leg and bikini leg wag and IPL on my back) so comfortably dressed for the session, anyway back to the story, the wind caught me in the face and lifted my wig off my head. It was  tres tres (as the French say) embarrassing. I actually cried with embarrassment. The boys shouted, hooted their horns etc. Just Gross!!. Luclkily my beautician was right opposite the crossing and I dashed in, the girls were very good when I explained what happened. My therapist gave me a kiss on the cheek telling me I looked wonderful and gave me a cup of tea..

The second time was I was waiting at a bus stop outside Selfridges in Oxford Street. I had just had a wonderful make over by a Beauty Saleswoman at the Dior Cosmetics counter in Selfridges and felt a million dollars. Sheer pantiie hose, pink open toe 3.5" heels and a floral A line dress with me with bare shoulders and arms. I felt a million dollars. Anyway I was waiting fr a bus back to Tower Hamlets as I was up in London meeting friends that night in the Way Out Club and standing at the bus stop, this scruffy rumanian/gypsy boy was begging at the stop. Something about me twigged and he started shouting this is a man, this a man at the top of his voice,

I turned said to him you silly boy, look I have no adam apple pointing at my throat and made a bee line for Bond Street Tube station as quick as I could get across the road. What relief to be lost in the crowd. Oh I remember one thing, my feet hurt like hell from those heels. I should have worn my wedges that day.

Quote from: Seyranna on October 03, 2012, 11:05:43 AM
What I'm gonna say will probably be considered a mean cis-supremacist comment but in all honestly if you know for a fact that you will never really pass for a woman, never be treated as such and always suffer deeply from it how can dysphoria, however severe ever be considered worst than the life of suffering and misery transition will bring? This is an honest question please don't be angry at me.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: in your dreams!

Even at my advance age I am more beautiful, and attract  a lot of attention from the male folks, than 80% of the so called cis-females I encounter on my daily live.

Speak for yourself dahrling

You know we are more than just trans or cis, gender is but one component of who we are.

In my male role -I had to play- I was an alpha dog, now, true to myself,  I am an alpha bitch, that is. Nothing  has changed!  :angel:

Quote from: judithlynn on October 03, 2012, 09:46:11 PM
I think the first was the worse. As I was crossing the road, I got caught in a huge gust of wind, there were two young men in a car stopped at the crossing to let me cross, and I started over in my heels in a green shirt dress and leggings (I think I was en route for a full leg and bikini leg wag and IPL on my back) so comfortably dressed for the session, anyway back to the story, the wind caught me in the face and lifted my wig off my head. It was  tres tres (as the French say) embarrassing. I actually cried with embarrassment. The boys shouted, hooted their horns etc. Just Gross!!. Luclkily my beautician was right opposite the crossing and I dashed in, the girls were very good when I explained what happened. My therapist gave me a kiss on the cheek telling me I looked wonderful and gave me a cup of tea..

If that ever happened to me, I would probably laugh hysterically.  :laugh:

Quote from: peky on October 03, 2012, 09:55:54 PM
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: in your dreams!

Even at my advance age I am more beautiful, and attract  a lot of attention from the male folks, than 80% of the so called cis-females I encounter on my daily live.

Speak for yourself dahrling

In case you aren't that perceptive this question was not oriented at people who pass effortlessly pre-HRT... Besides that's a question, you don't answer such a question by"In yo dreamz lulz".

I asked this question because I was one of those who passed pre-HRT and I don't think I would've had the strength to transition had I known that I wouldn't blend seamlessly. The emotional turmoil of gender incongruency to me seems more manageable than a life of struggle and constant vulnerability but that's highly subjective. Part of this may be because even after a year of being full time, I still deal with my own internalized transphobia. I admire these trans women who can go out there knowing full well that they aren't passable but I'd still be uneasy around them nonetheless.

and yes there is much more to passability than genetics.

I'm with Seyranna. It's a totally legitimate question she's asking. I asked myself that very same thing every day (still do occasionally) before I transitioned.

Quote from: Seyranna on October 03, 2012, 10:48:04 PM
In case you aren't that perceptive this question was not oriented at people who pass effortlessly pre-HRT... Besides that's a question, you don't answer such a question by"In yo dreamz lulz".

I asked this question because I was one of those who passed pre-HRT and I don't think I would've had the strength to transition had I known that I wouldn't blend seamlessly. The emotional turmoil of gender incongruency to me seems more manageable than a life of struggle and constant vulnerability but that's highly subjective. Part of this may be because even after a year of being full time, I still deal with my own internalized transphobia. I admire these trans women who can go out there knowing full well that they aren't passable but I'd still be uneasy around them nonetheless.

and yes there is much more to passability than genetics.

I think it is just different perspectives. Being trans means different things to different people. Idgi personally but people are gonna do what they feel like doing I guess. But then sometimes I read about people who had a perfectly successful, well-integrated male life that they kind of suddenly threw away only to be constantly miserable and on the verge of suicide and I just wonder why.  :-X

I thought I should come back on & apologise to Seyranna & Isabelle for my replies yesterday, i'd had a terrible day & I was lashing out at the wrong people, sorry :embarrassed:

Quote from: pretty on October 04, 2012, 03:31:22 AM
... sometimes I read about people who had a perfectly successful, well-integrated male life that they kind of suddenly threw away only to be constantly miserable and on the verge of suicide and I just wonder why.  :-X

Honestly I think transition is NOT for everybody who decides to do it. Kinda like somebody with no feet wanting shoes. You aren't designed to have it. This doesn't go to those who don't pass, but to those who are happy before they transition, only to be miserable and bitter after they do it. It's just a poor decision and they should go back to doing whatever makes them happy.

But let me get this straight: nothing I said means happiness = easier life. It was easier to not worry about if people are going to figure out and discriminate against me when I get a house, job, car etc... but I'm much more happier now regardless of how many obstacles come in front of me. But I am one of those that people are more comfortable being around (in general) after I transitioned than before....

well the question I guess is more for someone like me I guess - I am stuck in boy mode cause of my job, parents, country and because my laser appointment got postponed... but all that's a different story.

the answer is quite simple what would you say to someone who has a kid who is sick and needs medical help or to someone who doesn't have legs but wants to walk - yes its easier if they give up on their kid and easier for someone to keep using a wheelchair - but that doesn't mean that we are going to be happy. It means giving up a kid you love or all your dreams of being able to walk again.

most people who are around soldiers or people who have become disabled because of an accident  sense a feeling of loss of who they really are and that loss more simple than just a lost limb or loss of an ability like sight, sound, walking, etc. But aside from that most have a sense of fear and hope for their future that things could not get more worse.

Each one of us feels a burning desire to be ourselves and each one decides to react to it differently. After 25 years of trying to avoid it - out of which 1 and half I spent with a wonderfull partner - but that didn't last because I needed to be myself and even small parts of my true self started to leak into our relationship and that freaked her out at the time more than anything else despite me trying to explain who I was to her since the start it was her realization of who I really was that changed things in our relationship. During these 25 years I have tried /been forced to try alot of things to convince myself of who am not.

Prior to that I had spent about 6 maybe 7 months on HRT.

Ok so am rambling... long story short I know I will NEVER forgive myself if I don't try now - No matter how much I try to avoid it - I only make things more difficult for myself by postponing the inevitable.

The only way I can pull something like this off is if I time it perfectly - i.e. laser and HRT have to work together and my plan and ability to leave my country have to come together to work at the same time  and I must not loose my job till then or find  a better paying job. There must not be any period of not passing and if I don't pass its immediately back to boy mode that's why at least for the next year (or 3 years) I would have to pray that everything works out.

The only way this could have been worse for me is that if I was stuck in a country that penalizes us for being trans with the death penalty.

And yes am not following the standard procedure for treatment of GID/transitioning - but that's because the standard procedure could cost my job without which I can't pay for therapy, HRT, Laser and could even force me into begging, prostitution and becoming homeless, or worse. There are some places where a standard set of procedures just don't apply and is simply not possible.

and yes it could be easier if I didn't try, but I don't care what anyone thinks - I like what HRT and laser is doing to my mind and body and am doing it anyway.

Aye - I gave up "passing" when I stopped trying to be a man. Now I'm me, and any problems with that aren't my problems.

If there's something I learned these past few months: it's that if things were meant to happen - the opportunity will present itself and it will happen with more ease than you expected. You don't need to live life by a script, life will pan out how it's suppose to and if you don't go down that path, life will give you so much crap until you just give in one way or the other....

My therapist made me write out a script when I started therapy... where I planned to be in 5 years. I threw it in a folder and haven't looked at it in a long time.. long before I even started hormones. I found it the other day while I was packing, and read it. I was amazed at how much stuff on there happened without me even trying to make it happen. I planned to move something like 3 years after starting hormones... I planned to do it after going full time. Didn't happen that way, because I'm moving tomorrow. EVERYTHING on that script happened out of place, happened faster, and happened way easier than I ever could've dreamed. Many things happened after a tragic point (IE losing my job led to me going full time - being evicted led me to sell my property and move to the city I have loved my whole life).

If it's your fate to transition, you will know it and life will work out for you when you do... considering life is ready for you to do it at the moment you do it! Everything will fall into place. Try to fight it, and it'll be like standing in front of a steamroller. I think people should just throw away their scripts and live life :) Let it take you down the path of least resistance. Your heart will tell you where to go.

When I first went out, I had to watch my back because I would get insults like that. Now if I bother to wear makeup and dress a bit alluringly, I catch men watching me.

Quote from: Jayne on October 04, 2012, 07:52:01 AM
I thought I should come back on & apologise to Seyranna & Isabelle for my replies yesterday, i'd had a terrible day & I was lashing out at the wrong people, sorry :embarrassed:

Yes, we should watch what we say here. This is, after all, a support forum.

Jayne, all is well, no harm done :) sorry if I wound you up

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on October 04, 2012, 09:37:17 AM
If there's something I learned these past few months: it's that if things were meant to happen - the opportunity will present itself and it will happen with more ease than you expected. You don't need to live life by a script, life will pan out how it's suppose to and if you don't go down that path, life will give you so much crap until you just give in one way or the other....

My therapist made me write out a script when I started therapy... where I planned to be in 5 years. I threw it in a folder and haven't looked at it in a long time.. long before I even started hormones. I found it the other day while I was packing, and read it. I was amazed at how much stuff on there happened without me even trying to make it happen. I planned to move something like 3 years after starting hormones... I planned to do it after going full time. Didn't happen that way, because I'm moving tomorrow. EVERYTHING on that script happened out of place, happened faster, and happened way easier than I ever could've dreamed. Many things happened after a tragic point (IE losing my job led to me going full time - being evicted led me to sell my property and move to the city I have loved my whole life).

If it's your fate to transition, you will know it and life will work out for you when you do... considering life is ready for you to do it at the moment you do it! Everything will fall into place. Try to fight it, and it'll be like standing in front of a steamroller. I think people should just throw away their scripts and live life :) Let it take you down the path of least resistance. Your heart will tell you where to go.

I soo totally agree. For so much of my life I had no support. I thought I could never transition without supporting family & friends. I thought I was gonna die without ever living my life, or if anything I would get all old before I even started trying but then life happened and only a couple years after that I hopped on a plane and moved across the country and went FT. And now everyone that knows has been wonderful to me and nobody else has to know.  :) My life is far from perfect but it really is true that when you feel so deep in a hole there is probably a way out much closer than you think.

I was with my therapist today and was asked: Do you think how you're dressed reflect who you are? I had to stop and think, and I was thinking...well, what is a woman supposed to wear and what is the expectation of the women's look in this instance?

I had to stop and pause for a few moments before answering, and said "No, it doesn't".

I was wearing female jeans today, though I don't think she noticed. As we went on, I really felt tension and fear about going beyond the feeling of being who I am and carrying through with it and being scared about how people will react in public. I'm not sure if this hurt my credibility with her, or what.   

I hope not either, the question can go either way depending on your personality.  I would say no, the clothing does not but what I feel does.

What does that mean? Well quite simply you don't put face value on someone based on what they wear.  Of course if someone is dressed like a man, and looks like a man than you are going to make the assumption.... and vice versa.  Female jeans are feminine  ;D

"You are not your job. You're not how much money you have in the bank. You're not the car you drive. You're not the contents of your wallet. You're not your f---ing khakis" Tyler Durden, Fight Club :)

Quote from: Brooke777 on October 03, 2012, 11:12:37 AM
For me, I would much rather live as a masculine looking woman, then a woman in a man's body. I would rather suffer through insults than suffer with being trapped. Just my opinion.

I would do the opposite  ;D

Barbie~~