Susan's Place Transgender Resources

i work at a church school, it's an anglican one but linked to so high an anglican church they are more like Catholics, they even have a picture of the Pope.

Most of the children, however go to churches with nutty names like 'The Church of God who does miracles and will revitalise your soul if you send us money'. Or "The Church of Christ the thrice blessed and all his angels who are in eternal war against satan" and other such crazineness.

Today we did the feeding of the five thousand and we were talking about the story and the message of sharing (my class is of five-year-olds, learning to share is very important to us). One of the girls decided to inform me of what her daddy said. Her daddy said that if a girl wears men's clothes or a boy wears women's clothes that they will be punished. I know this is in the Bible but it did spark a question, which I asked the girl.

1) Why would God; an all-powerfull, all-knowing, all-benevolent being far removed and above the psychology of the human mind be offering fashion tips?

May I ask what you would consider a non nutty name for a church?

ive never heard of names like those before...

They are a largely African import to London.
Mine are slightly exaggerated but not much. There is also a church called GodZone.

I doubt that god gives fashion tips - at least based on the way I see most priests, nuns, and ministers dressed.  Yeesh. 

Really, doesn't it trivialize god to think that god would care about fashion?

pff i dress good on Sundays lol. This is the set I own (the Chausible is during Advent....so we wear different colors depending on the year)

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.womenspirit.com%2FImages%2FProducts%2FFitted-Shirt-Neckband-collar-3106-1.jpg&hash=b87b165b4c38e0b56a4d1892365c4fe41fbe1e49)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.womenspirit.com%2FImages%2FProducts%2FEsther-1050-1.jpg&hash=26c3b4bf162c449ca3caa9135a601a84b888d08e)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.almy.com%2FUI%2FCMAlmyImages%2FVestHang_6%2Fp_290554_e.jpg&hash=6ebd5d2a788552de872895fa7cb92de25a36d3be)

One of the reasons why I love Sundays because i love what I wear!

Also, if God were "perfect", then would it have technically made a mistake by creating trans people in the first place?

Quote from: DianaP on October 02, 2012, 05:47:01 PM
Also, if God were "perfect", then would it have technically made a mistake by creating trans people in the first place?

that's in the eyes of the beholder. I find my trans status a unique blessing in which I have experienced both male and female lives in every way possible.

So, for me, it was not a mistake.

May I ask how the child's question got from "sharing" to "what people wear"?

Also (I'm curious), where is it in the Bible that it says "...a girl wears men's clothes or a boy wears women's clothes that they will be punished"?

Quote from: Beth Andrea on October 02, 2012, 08:54:55 PM
Also (I'm curious), where is it in the Bible that it says "...a girl wears men's clothes or a boy wears women's clothes that they will be punished"?

I doubt it says that anywhere. A lot of religious folks take things out of context and make stuff up to get their way. Annah here is one of the good ones.

Quote from: DianaP on October 02, 2012, 08:59:52 PM
I doubt it says that anywhere. A lot of religious folks take things out of context and make stuff up to get their way. Annah here is one of the good ones.

It is in the OT. It would take me a while to look it up, so give me a bit.

Quote from: Beth Andrea on October 02, 2012, 08:54:55 PM
May I ask how the child's question got from "sharing" to "what people wear"?

Also (I'm curious), where is it in the Bible that it says "...a girl wears men's clothes or a boy wears women's clothes that they will be punished"?

Dueteronomy 22:5  KJV


5 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God.

Quote from: SarahM777 on October 02, 2012, 09:15:07 PM
Dueteronomy 22:5  KJV


5 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God.

Thank you, SarahM777 (she of the same "last name" as Brooke777  ;) ).

Good thing that when I was Christian (pre-TS), I saw the Bible (with the exception of the 10 Commandments and the Salvation) as more of a "guide" than actual, literal Thou Shalt/Shalt Not's. That is just me, though. To each his/her own, just don't kill me.

Quote from: Beth Andrea on October 02, 2012, 09:24:11 PM
Thank you, SarahM777 (she of the same "last name" as Brooke777  ;) ).

We must be related  ;D

Quote from: Beth Andrea on October 02, 2012, 08:54:55 PM
May I ask how the child's question got from "sharing" to "what people wear"?

"I doubt that god gives fashion tips - at least based on the way I see most priests, nuns, and ministers dressed.  Yeesh.

Really, doesn't it trivialize god to think that god would care about fashion?"

Quote from: Beth Andrea on October 02, 2012, 08:54:55 PM
May I ask how the child's question got from "sharing" to "what people wear"?

She's 5, it could have gone anywhere.

Her father is a bigot and the god his mind has created is a bigot against all the same things.

Imagine that.

Quote from: Brooke777 on October 02, 2012, 09:45:03 PM
We must be related  ;D

Could be  ;)

Quote from: Beth Andrea on October 02, 2012, 09:24:11 PM
Thank you, SarahM777 (she of the same "last name" as Brooke777  ;) ).

Good thing that when I was Christian (pre-TS), I saw the Bible (with the exception of the 10 Commandments and the Salvation) as more of a "guide" than actual, literal Thou Shalt/Shalt Not's. That is just me, though. To each his/her own, just don't kill me.

It's harder coming the other way for sure.

Don't worry it's not something I even want to get involved with.

Biblical speaking i think men and women wore the same things. Robes. Except women's  head coverings and Men's soldier armor.

That's how it looks to western eyes, but what's not to say that hanging your robe over your left shoulder was male and your right female? Such distinctions look small from far away, but as we know, they are big deals to the people living there and then.

if male and female fashion were the same, and had all the same variations, it wouldn't be possible to dress wrong.

we all usually dress sinfully anyway:
"Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together." (Dueteronomy 22:5  KJV)
nowadays we even mix different materials in the same textile, that can't be good for us.

i really wish the bible revealed more of the context in which the different texts were written. why did someone have to forbid men from wearing women's garment and women from that which pertains to a man? something must have happened to earn it a line right there, but only those who lived at the time will know what.

Quote from: Taka on November 01, 2012, 07:37:21 AM
i really wish the bible revealed more of the context in which the different texts were written. why did someone have to forbid men from wearing women's garment and women from that which pertains to a man? something must have happened to earn it a line right there, but only those who lived at the time will know what.

In another thread (sorry, I don't know which one it was), someone posted a link to an organizations website where it went through the translations of some passages that pertain to trans* people. It demonstrated how the translation for men's and women's garments had changed over time. How, originally the translation for the men's garments was a soldiers uniform and how women and people with disabilities should not be made to wear them. I don't know exactly how accurate it is but, I have seen in many languages how translations can get messed up a little.

Quote from: Brooke777 on November 01, 2012, 08:30:59 AM
In another thread (sorry, I don't know which one it was), someone posted a link to an organizations website where it went through the translations of some passages that pertain to trans* people. It demonstrated how the translation for men's and women's garments had changed over time. How, originally the translation for the men's garments was a soldiers uniform and how women and people with disabilities should not be made to wear them. I don't know exactly how accurate it is but, I have seen in many languages how translations can get messed up a little.

I believe that it may have been GenderTree (They do have the passages that you are referring to under the heading Christian view.)

Quote from: SarahM777 on November 01, 2012, 08:36:01 AM
I believe that it may have been GenderTree (They do have the passages that you are referring to under the heading Christian view.)

Thank you. That does sound familiar.

I've never considered the bible to be against Gender Variance. "Dueteronomy 22:5" In my opinion is against women going to war and like many passages in the bible is surplus in this society. I stood by my faith when I was a gay man and I'll stand by it as a woman.

As I am moving from an agnostic/atheist position towards Progressive Judaism it's not something that will be a problem apparently.
As I understand it the Torah is viewed as something that is continually evolving in interpretation, and can never be made to stand still, because we don't.

Karen.

i really wish the bible revealed more of the context in which the different texts were written

I'm wondering if the writer is at fault, or, like Ayn Rand, god needed an editor real bad.

Quote from: tekla on November 01, 2012, 01:26:35 PM
i really wish the bible revealed more of the context in which the different texts were written

Isn't that the traditional role of the priesthood?

Isn't that the traditional role of the priesthood?

I thought that was fundraising.

Quote from: Brooke777 on November 01, 2012, 08:30:59 AM
It demonstrated how the translation for men's and women's garments had changed over time. How, originally the translation for the men's garments was a soldiers uniform and how women and people with disabilities should not be made to wear them. I don't know exactly how accurate it is but, I have seen in many languages how translations can get messed up a little.

Another site I have been on took this a bit farther by adding that the context of this passage which is important was neighborly duties and activities.  My own paraphrase is that you don't put armor on a woman  or a frail man that you know can get whupped about too easily because they are not stong enough, but neither do you work over the frail man by forcibly treating him as you normally treat women.  The site makes the point that Women were the primary point of this, but we know women got kicked around in those days any way, but don't kick her around for this thing. -- Cannon fodder!!    Another interpretation that makes it clear that CDing was not the culprit.