Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Does anybody else have this?

Ok I love my bf and trust him immensely but for people I have never met before I find it very hard to trust or be comfortable around men... do you think this is kind of a normal MTF thing or am I just crazy??  :-\ I do have a little general anxiety but usually I am mostly fine around other girls, but with guys I just feel like they are judging me a lot and that if I talk to them they are going to hurt me or something... I get really anxious interacting with them and just want to make an excuse to leave ASAP.

It feels like it must be because of growing up scared that boys would expect you to be "one of them" and having your femininity made fun of... but yeah so I wonder am I alone on that?? And does anyone have any ideas on how to fix it?  :-\

I think it's normal for anyone who has been victimized by guys. I'm a guy, and I felt the same way for a long while.

I fit in pretty well with the guys when I was in elementary school, and was often the only "girl" in any given group of boys. But when we all hit puberty I had a handful of men that I could trust, and the rest bullied me and ostracized me. I also didn't have a lot of involved or positive male role models in my life outside of school. So I began to associate exclusively with women, and it's been that way ever since. I'm starting to feel a little bit better about it now that I am on T, though, because I understand some of what's going on.

I've always felt somewhat intimidated by males, whether boys in school or men nowadays. Hell, when I see a group of young men (perhaps high school age) I still feel a little nervous.

I think .caleb nailed it with: "I think it's normal for anyone who has been victimized by guys."

Not fearful but somewhat disdainful having had to deal with a bunch of Neanderthals looking like walrus's with all that hair sticking out of their faces, food stuck in their moustaches stained by nicotine, a big wad of chew, blowing stinking breath that smells like sh** in my face, a mix of chew and last nights barf from too much booze. As they lean over and tell me about their great sexual exploits with women.
I go really??? :icon_yikes:

Quote from: TessaM on October 13, 2012, 12:53:23 PM
When I was little I had the same feelings. Men scared me with their beards and attitude. The way they would generally comport themselves was disgusting to me, scary even. Maybe I was sub consciously being intimidated, iuno, but in my head men were "bad" and women were "good." All of my friends in preschool until the end of elementary school were girls.

As time progressed I kinda got over it. Put yourself in situations where youll have constant interaction with men, and youll see how nowadays most are more than acceptable  :laugh: Now I think of other things  >:-)

Are you in school? Im sure theres lots of guys there, try to befriend some with similar interests! They don't have to be the football stars, they can be the lady gaga monsters, painters, etc.

I am not in school now but when I was a yr or so ago it was kinda tough...

Actually I was in a night class once that only had 2 other girls in it and the other like 19 were guys. I think that just added to my anxiety because it was pre-transition and a lot of things they said about women especially during breaks, really bothered me and I got really avoidant because I was afraid they were gonna expect the same from me and because I was too afraid to bitch at them about it. But they would insult the female teacher behind her back and call her a slut and whore and demean her just because they didn't like the way she taught the class.

I know there are better guys than that out there but sometimes it feels like almost all guys think about is sex and that is all they can see in a woman, and even guys you thought weren't like that would surprise you if they said what they REALLY thought.

Lol Lady Gaga monsters, I love that, I guess I never met many guys like that.

Quote from: .caleb on October 13, 2012, 01:12:12 PM
I think it's normal for anyone who has been victimized by guys. I'm a guy, and I felt the same way for a long while.

I fit in pretty well with the guys when I was in elementary school, and was often the only "girl" in any given group of boys. But when we all hit puberty I had a handful of men that I could trust, and the rest bullied me and ostracized me. I also didn't have a lot of involved or positive male role models in my life outside of school. So I began to associate exclusively with women, and it's been that way ever since. I'm starting to feel a little bit better about it now that I am on T, though, because I understand some of what's going on.

Thanks Caleb  :)

I can understand that perspective too. It must be so hard growing up as the "girl" in the boys' only club, especially if you are a boy inside. It seems like after puberty everyone just took sides and girls and guys couldn't have real friendships anymore...  :-\

Yep. I'm way less comfortable around guys. I think it's just bad experiences with being physically intimidated. Guys make me nervous because somewhere in the back of my head is the fear of getting hurt. Guys that I know or are over-60 or are visibly queer get a pass, but otherwise I can feel my body start tensing up.

I find if I'm with someone that I trust or I'm in a space that I'm used to, I'm a bit more relaxed. And if talk to the same guy a few times, I get used to them and then I'm fine. It also depends on their body language - if they are tense or nervous or aggressive that makes it so much worse.

Quote from: Connie Anne on October 13, 2012, 01:52:03 PMHell, when I see a group of young men (perhaps high school age) I still feel a little nervous.

Groups of younger guys are the worst of anything. I used to have to walk home in the evening past this group of young guys hanging out and smoking pot on the path to where I lived. They were never anything but polite to me. But seriously. So so scary.

A whole lot of fear here. (But understandable) Even when I was a kid there was no way I would spend time during the holidays with the men folk. Including my father and grandfathers. I spent my time in the kitchen with the ladies. PE was a nightmare.

hmmm, not all guys intimidate me, but certain types at my school do if they're especially masculine. I just find their presence overbearing and annoying.

 I am fearful of most people, but it's generally on an individual basis. I start out being untrusting and distant, but if they show that they are a good person, then I will be able to grow closer. And, of course, if they show that they can't be trusted, or that they're not a good person, I will remain distant, maintaining a relationship only if I need to deal with that person for work, or some personal advantage.

There are many good people, but there seem to be even more hurtful ones. That is my experience, so far.

Yes.. especially when they "notice" me. I'm into men and only men... but the anxiety I feel towards them now is more scary than it used to be pre transition. I just feel much more vulnerable around them now. Even when they open the door I find it hard to look them in the eye. Some of that, however, is a result of learning that if you look them in the eyes long enough they'll think you're flirting with them or something.

I suspect it might be normal to be wary of unknown men just from a female point of view. Not saying guys are evil or anything but just from a female point of view you would feel safer around other girls and wary of guys you don't know. Just my thoughts on this. Also if you were bullied by guys or made fun of by guys your view on this would also be skewed. As such I feel much safer coming out to other women as opposed to men.

I think it's mostly related to life experiences. In my childhood, my female cousins, and some of my very first classmates, excluded me, mainly because I was a boy trying to fit in with girls, and also because I have the habit of just doing everything wrong when it comes to social contacts... They rejected me and made me feel like I was "out of their clique". To be fair, though, most of my cousins are mean to begin with.

So I stuck with boys, mostly. Girls wanted nothing of me, anyway, and my association with them was always discouraged by my father. And well, I always need to get used to things to try them. Even now, almost always, someone has to take my hand and do something with me, explaining each step, at least once, or I won't feel comfortable doing it alone.

Life hadn't taught me how to be friends with girls. Indeed, most summers, my mother was subscribing me to a summer day camp that had the weird idea of separating boys and girls at almost 100 %. Since such a place is the best occasion to socialise...

So now, even though I don't really feel like I fit with them, I'm mostly okay with boys. Boys, that is. Men, they've always repugnated me (though of course that's a strong word to describe how I feel now - even I evolve!), because they were what I absolutely did not want to become. And since I have this habit of always needing to put an absolute value on things because at some point I stopped allowing myself to have an opinion, men became evil in my mind.

So with my male classmates who still somewhat look like boys/teenagers, I'm pretty comfortable. But those who look more like men - one of them, for example, is fat, hairy and bearded - I don't like to be with them much, out of my will. I can get used to them, and for some of them, I do, but even in those cases, I feel the need to make efforts to interact with them.

Almost the same rule applies to men. The softer, the nicer they seem, the more not-so-masculine or young their voice sound, the higher their "baby face factor", the less hairy or bearded they are, the less uncomfortable or fearful I am.

And similarly, the more females still look like girls/teenagers, the more I'm uncomfortable with them, because they and I once teamed up to teach my brain not to be with them. At high school, it was roughly the same. Most of my female friends were, in appearance and mind, more like women, whilst the few girls I stayed away from were younger-looking.

The problem is much less present now since females grow to look very much like their adult selves younger, and it was already not so present in high school for the same reasons, but still: I'm always more comfortable, in terms of first impression, with girls who appear older and/or more mature than I.

And of course, I've always felt much more comfortable with women, so much that considering my average not-so-social self, it's surprising.

So uhm, yes. My life has shaped me to be with boys and women, and away from girls and men, and that's how I still am to a degree.

I think being a transsexual and thus loathing to become a man has a relatively high chance of triggering a fear of men, but it greatly depends on how you lived it. In the end, all of that is just a persistence of who we learned to fear or like in the past.

Fear no one, and fear them all. (make no exceptions, this goes for man, women and children, young, adults or old, able or disable)

Everywhere, you are to maintain discreet scanning and remember: who, where, surface type, lightening, furniture, doors, windows. Brief eye contact with all, "I see you, no challenge," then ask yourself "what I am prepared to do?" 

Have fun, enjoy yourself, but keep sending the "I am not a victim, I see you" energy.

One big exception are the drunks, I put as much distance between drunks and myself, as they are unpredictable; I also avoid bars and disco places unless I go with a large crowd.

Heh, I felt like adding this. It's funny how it seems to be common to be more fearful of teenagers and young men, while I have the exact contrary. I guess it really is based on experience. That, or I'm just weird.

not for men, But I do have alot of people I feel rather phobic about.

I have bad fellings for cisgenders who is very hetronomative somethimes because im unsure how they will react to me when they know, or my friends. this is not as bad now but there had been times where I found it very hard to trust unless they already was my friends.

but mostly I got a big fear of therapist because I had alot of bad experience there, I tried to go to a therapist some years ago and no matter how friendly she was I still felt very uptight and horrible about the visit.

so no I dont have fear of men but I do understand that you with bad experience feel certain people are harder to trust than others.

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on October 13, 2012, 03:28:20 PM
Yes.. especially when they "notice" me. I'm into men and only men... but the anxiety I feel towards them now is more scary than it used to be pre transition. I just feel much more vulnerable around them now. Even when they open the door I find it hard to look them in the eye. Some of that, however, is a result of learning that if you look them in the eyes long enough they'll think you're flirting with them or something.

Yeah, that's how cis women initiate a flirt, and if the guy acknowledges the eyeball contact by connecting his gaze with hers, then comes the smiles both ways followed by "Hi!" Been there too many times in the past life, I could write a book on the subject.

I had a bad experience at a gay bar once and always watch out for that strange personality gay, male, female, cis ect that says
"I can use you" >:(

Quote from: Joann on October 13, 2012, 08:22:20 PM
I had a bad experience at a gay bar once and always watch out for that strange personality gay, male, female, cis ect that says
"I can use you" >:(

I hate that, heard it from potential employers as an independent type, it always created a mental picture of being bent over a log out back somewhere like in the movie Deliverance.
My reply was always: "Uh - I think not!"

Like anything in life, it is all based on the situation at hand and the individuals involved  :)   I generally do my best to be polite and unassuming, but if the red flags start popping up I will distance myself

I was picked on a lot in school and at church (Gee, wonder why she's not the religious type) ::)  After awhile you begin to pick up on various basic personality traits  :)  This awareness helps you to avoid obviously bad situations without being paranoid

I also started studying martial arts and learning to defend myself, this took a lot of the fear out of the equation  :)  When a bully realizes that you are not afraid of them, they will usually move on to other things

Sure, sometimes I still get nervous or feel intimidated around some individuals but I do my best to not let it show

 Caution is always advised when in unfamiliar areas or situations. For me the anxiety comes from no longer having the physical ability to seriously defend myself without hardware.  Local situations are no problem.  I have never been able to relate to men from the git go and as a result I have become wary of the younger crowd. If I believe it may be unwise to go someplace I simply avoid the area or situation.

I intimidate men way too much to be scared of them lol...

Most men are spineless tools I don't fear them I pity them. They barely dare make eye contact with me and those who dare are often over-confident douchebags. I guess if I was clockable I would be more self-conscious around men or maybe it's just because I'm not hetero and since I don't want to please them in any way( getting hit on/cat called is already annoying enough) I don't apprehend how they are perceiving me so there's no fear involved.

I guess everyone has different experiences  :)

It feels like a phobia. Like way beyond what is reasonable. Well I can't be reasonable about it... how do you even get over that :( I swear I can't even talk to the men in my own family!!

I have no fear of men. They are just men.. But then, I have no interest in them, at least not as a possible partner. I have friends who are men. Some who knew me before and some that I've met since transition. The ones I knew before all treat me the same - as their friend.. And the ones I've met since all treat me as a woman. :)

The majority of men I interact with are at my work sites., and they all knew me as a 'guy' before I went FT. They have all been very very charming and well mannered. Totally accepting and if I'm in any way joked or insulted about I have never heard it. I do find it a little odd that guys wait for me to enter the lift, open the door for me, and treat me in exactly the same way as they treat other woman.  There is BTW nothing sexist in my opinion about male - female courtesy.

I was surprised in the differences between how woman to woman interact and men and woman interact in public, I was warned of this and very happy to experience it as it validated my acceptance as female.

I have been very fortunate in social circles of not having the drunken lech move onto me.  But I am cautious about my physical safety, something I didn't think about when I was presenting as male. Indeed sometimes I looked for trouble.

I feared men because of a very abusive puberty physically , sexually and mentally. I never knew what caused it , I use to try and act as manly as possible and it never worked. Up until the age of 20 I would not look men in the eye, I avoided talking to them at all costs , I wore a hood over my head ,  I got anxious whenever I had to do group projects with men.  I could not talk to brothers/sisters male friends if they come over , I refused to answer door when I was only one home. I literally had the most intense fear of men that caused me to just get lost in anxiety and depression. So I got help , I talked to a lady who put me in a self esteem program with men in it.

I noticed them talking to me , and I would just be as shy and awkward as usual , but they were "cool" in the fact they didn't pick on me or move away from me because of it. I went to tafe and had this teacher come into class and make sure I wasn't stressing about men... yes that's right I needed a person in my own class to make me feel safe from them. Then guys would hang around me at the tafe, cause the girls + teacher sat with me , and they'd talk to me, and ofc I'd be fearful and awkward and they just wouldn't care. I eventually just avoided the bad apples , and not all the bad apples are masculine by the way. My 2 best friends boyfriends talked to me because prob from their request, and I actually get along with them pretty well.

I went online talked to guys through my friends on skype and guys can be alright, when you take away all that boy stuff they talk about =). I have a pretty healthy relationship with a guy , I have lots of male friends , that always wanna talk to me and they are straight. Since i'm new into transition obvious not over the net its harder , but my brother's friends talk to me, don't really mention it. My sisters boyfriends don't care. Males on the street, I just walk head up high, the good thing about being 6 feet tall is that you feel a bit empowered sometimes if you had to take on a teenage smart mouth male. Of course I don't put myself into situations where I'd be at super risk of a drunk guy or a group of guys that I couldn't avoid because of that being responsible in my town without being 100% stealth*which I don't ever plan to do*. I don't know when I feared men, I could never have a conversation and just felt how different I was , when I tried my best to stop fearing them, I could talk to them about different things , and they would think i'm alright to talk to. Fear , just don't fear if its not necessary , it will just  cause ya to have anxiety and depression from my experience anyway.

I don't fear them, but I am wary of them, especially when they have been drinking. I really don't have to deal with many outside of my job though.

I've always feared men, even as I've lived as one. Combination of being bullied when younger, physical vulnerability, and the attitudes a lot of men have toward gender variance.

I don't necessarily have a fear of men, but i am afraid of most teenage boys my age.

I'm curious, where does this fear of young guys in particular come from? Were you picked on by them? Because in my own experience, at least, they start being bad - if they do - when they become adults, mostly. Did you live the contrary? :/

Quote from: pretty on October 14, 2012, 01:20:25 AM
I guess everyone has different experiences  :)

It feels like a phobia. Like way beyond what is reasonable. Well I can't be reasonable about it... how do you even get over that :( I swear I can't even talk to the men in my own family!!

If it is this^^ hard, then you should seek the help of a psychiatrist dear

Quote from: pretty on October 13, 2012, 12:48:48 PM
Does anybody else have this?

Ok I love my bf and trust him immensely but for people I have never met before I find it very hard to trust or be comfortable around men... do you think this is kind of a normal MTF thing or am I just crazy??  :-\ I do have a little general anxiety but usually I am mostly fine around other girls, but with guys I just feel like they are judging me a lot and that if I talk to them they are going to hurt me or something... I get really anxious interacting with them and just want to make an excuse to leave ASAP.

It feels like it must be because of growing up scared that boys would expect you to be "one of them" and having your femininity made fun of... but yeah so I wonder am I alone on that?? And does anyone have any ideas on how to fix it?  :-\

Nope your not alone! I have the same problem. I have always felt like I had to prove myself on how macho I was and had to act twice as much growing up and in my current life. When at work if two males walk onto the car lot to shop for cars I won't talk to them just because I get a high level of that same anxiety that your referring too.  When the guys at work break off into a typical "guy conversation" I just walk away or start zoning myself out. I'm really not concerned about it going away in all honesty I'm sure many cis-females get jitters around men.

Quote from: A on October 14, 2012, 08:51:05 AM
I'm curious, where does this fear of young guys in particular come from? Were you picked on by them? Because in my own experience, at least, they start being bad - if they do - when they become adults, mostly. Did you live the contrary? :/

Well they do pick on me quite a bit (calling me weird and all sorts of stuff), but i also think it's because they tend to do things that are so rude and inappropriate. I'm also easily frightened, so just being rough can scare me. I'm not really afraid of older men because they're normally well behaved.

Quote from: Shantel on October 13, 2012, 02:06:21 PM
Not fearful but somewhat disdainful having had to deal with a bunch of Neanderthals looking like walrus's with all that hair sticking out of their faces, food stuck in their moustaches stained by nicotine, a big wad of chew, blowing stinking breath that smells like sh** in my face, a mix of chew and last nights barf from too much booze. As they lean over and tell me about their great sexual exploits with women.
I go really??? :icon_yikes:

Hahaahaha! From one mtf andro to another, you nailed it.

Quote from: Shantel on October 13, 2012, 02:06:21 PM
Not fearful but somewhat disdainful having had to deal with a bunch of Neanderthals looking like walrus's with all that hair sticking out of their faces, food stuck in their moustaches stained by nicotine, a big wad of chew, blowing stinking breath that smells like sh** in my face, a mix of chew and last nights barf from too much booze. As they lean over and tell me about their great sexual exploits with women.
I go really??? :icon_yikes:

LOL! I find men sweet <3, maybe since I'm attracted to them also I find those traits endearing,,,

except the tobacco chewing and stinking breath, and sexual exploits...I've never experienced that with a guy ever, BUT I have experienced a few girls that I know talking about how their man is so good/hung in bed lol.

darn my involuntary inclusion in womyns spaces ::)

Quote from: Ave on October 14, 2012, 11:02:13 AM
LOL! I find men sweet <3, maybe since I'm attracted to them also I find those traits endearing,,,

except the tobacco chewing and stinking breath, and sexual exploits...I've never experienced that with a guy ever, BUT I have experienced a few girls that I know talking about how their man is so good/hung in bed lol.

I live in the Northwest where there are fewer refined metrosexuals than live there in New York. They drive pickups with a rifle and NRA stickers in the back window and their dogs in the truck bed. They wear Levis so filthy that they stand up on their own. LOL you haven't lived yet Ave!

Quote from: Shantel on October 14, 2012, 11:18:51 AM
I live in the Northwest where there are fewer refined metrosexuals than live there in New York. They drive pickups with a rifle and NRA stickers in the back window and their dogs in the truck bed. They wear Levis so filthy that they stand up on their own. LOL you haven't lived yet Ave!

LOL omfg these aren't "refined" metrosexuals, they're thugs and drop outs and been in jail already twice guys, they're usually nice to me though so *shrugs*

Quote from: Shantel on October 14, 2012, 11:18:51 AM
I live in the Northwest where there are fewer refined metrosexuals than live there in New York. They drive pickups with a rifle and NRA stickers in the back window and their dogs in the truck bed. They wear Levis so filthy that they stand up on their own. LOL you haven't lived yet Ave!

Oh NO!!!! That sounds just like one of my brothers! My father did the same thing with his gardening clothes. He would come home from work,change into his work clothes,sweat like a pig,then take them off throw onto a chair,on TOP of his other clean grubby clothes,and do that for three days straight before changing them. EEEEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!

Quote from: Cindy James on October 14, 2012, 02:20:41 AM
I do find it a little odd that guys wait for me to enter the lift, open the door for me, and treat me in exactly the same way as they treat other woman.  There is BTW nothing sexist in my opinion about male - female courtesy.

I love it when a gentleman opens a door, lets me go ahead in a line or elevator(excuse me, a Que and a lift LOL). Makes me feel good about myself!

I know exactly what you mean. I feel the same way even though I'm attracted to men. Funny thing is I've always been uncomfortable around men, even as a kid. I guess it's due to the fact that I never know how they perceive me. It's sort of unfair to pre-judge but I find myself doing it with regards to men. I always expect them to judge me or come off as hostel. Unless a man proves me wrong by his actions I'm usually reserved around them. The weird thing is I get very nervous and uncomfortable around them. It's much easier to interact with women though. I feel like they are a lot less likely to react to me negativity.

First off congrats Giselle on starting your transformation! Im jealous. lol.

I can honestly say that i am afraid of men. I can interact with them, and its been easier since i started hanging out with gay men, but I dont know when any of them are trying to hit on me, I always take the advances in a bad way and distance myself until we resume normal conversations. For someone who wants to be with a man, and would honestly prefer a dominant man, Im far to afraid of them to let any come near me. (one of my friends joked and said that I would need to meet him by having him grab me and just kiss me. as exhilerating as it sounds, I think id knee him. lol) I think that I will be more confident when I begin taking hormones and truly start changing, but for now even if i did meet someone interested, how would I know that he would really want me? straight men want a woman and im not there yet physically. Gay men want a man and I certainly dont intend to stay as one. knowing this I cant really trust any of them.

To complement my first post in the thread I'd like to point out that I was scared of men a lot prior to transition but mainly because I grew up in the ghetto where I was constantly at risk of being mugged and stabbed... As a guy if you pass in front of a group of thugs you will most likely experience bullying or get mugged or worse but as a woman when I pass in front of a gang of thugs they simply check out my ass, whistle at me and stuff like that I don't feel vulnerable or anything.

Quote from: Seyranna on October 14, 2012, 04:22:49 PM
To complement my first post in the thread I'd like to point out that I was scared of men a lot prior to transition but mainly because I grew up in the ghetto where I was constantly at risk of being mugged and stabbed... As a guy if you pass in front of a group of thugs you will most likely experience bullying or get mugged or worse but as a woman when I pass in front of a gang of thugs they simply check out my ass, whistle at me and stuff like that I don't feel vulnerable or anything.

So far so good, fortunately there hasn't been any rapists in the crowd. Nothing wrong with being self assured though, good for you lady!

Quote from: jacqueline_rose on October 14, 2012, 02:35:03 PM
First off congrats Giselle on starting your transformation! Im jealous. lol.

Thanks Jacqueline!!

Don't be, I still have a loooooong ways to go. LOL

There are several of us who have a fear or anxiety around men. Now and in the past. That's interesting.  Is this a common theme for us?  Looking retrospectively, could it be this may have been a contributing factor to our GD? Never thought about that before. Perhaps the inability to relate to men, the anxiety over men or the recognition of our significant differences with them somehow influenced our feelings of alienation from the male gender. I can say I have always felt disconnected from men.

Quote from: Seyranna on October 14, 2012, 04:22:49 PM
To complement my first post in the thread I'd like to point out that I was scared of men a lot prior to transition but mainly because I grew up in the ghetto where I was constantly at risk of being mugged and stabbed... As a guy if you pass in front of a group of thugs you will most likely experience bullying or get mugged or worse but as a woman when I pass in front of a gang of thugs they simply check out my ass, whistle at me and stuff like that I don't feel vulnerable or anything.

Ooo guhl! Let me hollatcha. Oh u gon walk away? That's right behbeh shake DAT ass!!"

I feel the same, usually a bit anxious mainly because I can never relate to any typical male conversations so i just smile and nod. My biggest fear is that some men I'd come out to would take it as a challenge to their masculinity or something. Hoping I won't meet many people who would try to do anything bad but just got that fear

Quote from: Christine on October 15, 2012, 11:30:23 AM
There are several of us who have a fear or anxiety around men. Now and in the past. That's interesting.  Is this a common theme for us?  Looking retrospectively, could it be this may have been a contributing factor to our GD? Never thought about that before. Perhaps the inability to relate to men, the anxiety over men or the recognition of our significant differences with them somehow influenced our feelings of alienation from the male gender. I can say I have always felt disconnected from men.

But how are we supposed to date them? (those of us that want to.) I want to be with a man in the end, but I cant interact with them. Added to that the fact that our bodies are changing and most of them have a very founded sense of male and female. Id love to know that theres someone out there for me, but the few I have met that are interested are just looking for sex. filthy perverts just piss me off and I ignore them, but is there anyone else?

Quote from: Christine on October 15, 2012, 11:30:23 AM
There are several of us who have a fear or anxiety around men. Now and in the past. That's interesting.  Is this a common theme for us?  Looking retrospectively, could it be this may have been a contributing factor to our GD? Never thought about that before. Perhaps the inability to relate to men, the anxiety over men or the recognition of our significant differences with them somehow influenced our feelings of alienation from the male gender. I can say I have always felt disconnected from men.

It's always hard to say with certainty which of two correlated phenomena causes the other. There might be in-between responses, too, where they each promote each other.

Though from the little I know, I think fear of men affecting GID is less likely than GID affecting fear of men. The reason to that is that mostly, social preferences and such are often learned. People with a fear of dogs often, whether they remember it or not, have a triggering event (or more) in their past that caused or exacerbated it, for example.

Another reason is that although not so many and still not established in the scientific community, there is quite a few studies that show that the root cause of transsexualism might be mismatched sex hormone rates in the womb when the sex organs and brain developed, independently of environmental factors. So if the situation is that simple [doubtful], we'd be more or less doomed from birth, whether or not men scare us when we're old enough to know what a man is.

PS: Okay, grammar help, please. There is a few, or there are a few?

Quote from: A on October 15, 2012, 05:08:43 PM
PS: Okay, grammar help, please. There is a few, or there are a few?

Are. The subject "a few" is plural. There is one. There are a few.

Okay. It's "there is a lot" that confused me, since there's one lot of many things.

Quote from: Christine on October 15, 2012, 11:30:23 AM
There are several of us who have a fear or anxiety around men. Now and in the past. That's interesting.  Is this a common theme for us?  Looking retrospectively, could it be this may have been a contributing factor to our GD? Never thought about that before. Perhaps the inability to relate to men, the anxiety over men or the recognition of our significant differences with them somehow influenced our feelings of alienation from the male gender. I can say I have always felt disconnected from men.

I don't want to dismiss or invalidate the special feelings and experiences that come with being MTF, but as someone who's been raised as a girl, I can tell you that if you were to gather a hundred cis women in a room and ask them "raise your hand if you're the least bit afraid of men" less than a handful of them would keep their hand down. I only ever knew one woman who I'm sure wouldn't have raised her hand - she once sent a guy to the hospital after bludgeoning his face with her stiletto heel because he tried to steal her purse in the street.

In the society we live in, assuming the worst of men in the back of your mind when you present as a woman is not a case of paranoia or an irrational phobia, it is a basic survival skill. I'm not saying that all men are dangerous or pigs, but statistics can't be ignored. It's better than going in assuming they're all decent human beings and finding out they aren't the hard way.
If this fear is new and appeared post-transition, I'm afraid you may be just discovering one of the less pleasant aspects of the universal woman experience. It sounds awful but you do get used to it.

If the fear some of you experience is in any way related to your physical safety, I strongly recommend self-defense classes - there's a bunch of good videos on youtube if you can't afford them too. Having the intimate knowledge that you could very well defend yourself should the need arise gives a tremendous boost of confidence :)

(Sorry ladies for butting in if this thread/forum section is implicitly MTF-only, or if my input was unwanted and unneeded! I'm still learning the ropes around here and can't ever tell when people actually just wanted a friendly ear to vent  :-\ )

Welcome and you certainly haven't stepped on my toes with your post. That's good information to know. Thanks. Maybe we are realizing we are targets as female and feel a natural anxiety.

I love men too damn much to fear them ;)

I don't have any fear towards a person because of their gender.

And btw...no...i dont think it's a common theme for trans people to fear men....nvr heard of that until i read this thread...and ive been around quite a bit of transgender people

And honestly...some of "you alls" comments are about as offensive as someone saying "transgender people scare me because they could rape me in a bathroom" (some of the comments makes me want to facepalm). Ive seen women do horrible things too. My argument isn't directed towards those who fear men (u should get that looked into) but for the armchair statistical experts

In conclusion, i do fear people who assume too much

Quote from: A on October 15, 2012, 07:31:11 PM
Okay. It's "there is a lot" that confused me, since there's one lot of many things.

"There is a lot" would depend on the thing there is a lot of. There is a lot of studying. There are a lot of studies. "A lot of" is being used as an adjective referring to quantity.

But "there is one lot of many things" is also correct. Because in this case you are using "lot" as a noun. Meaning: A particular group, collection, or set of people or things.

"There are a few" is simpler because "few" can only modify a plural subject. And... there is a typo in my original post which probably isn't helping. Should say "the subject of 'a few' is plural." Sorry.

I don't think you should fear men, so much as bad people//actions. A man in and of himself isn't scary. The possibility that he might stab me after pulling a knife on me, however, would be, for example. I know a lot of good, albeit weird, men. Then again, I've never been one to talk.  ;) I love good men (in love with a great one now), dislike the bad ones, but never really feared any, if that makes sense.

Oh, and in regards to the original post--> I don't think men are all judging you. Just remember that people honestly don't care about judging every detail of every person they meet, especially men with their 5-second attention span. (Kidding  ;)) Maybe you're just being paranoid and looking for things that aren't there?  ???

As for me, I don't really fear men because I think they might be violent towards me. Who knows, it might stem from the questionable things my father did, but not consciously. I'm just uncomfortable with them, just because. It's hard to explain.

Quote from: Christine on October 15, 2012, 11:30:23 AM
There are several of us who have a fear or anxiety around men. Now and in the past. That's interesting.  Is this a common theme for us?  Looking retrospectively, could it be this may have been a contributing factor to our GD? Never thought about that before. Perhaps the inability to relate to men, the anxiety over men or the recognition of our significant differences with them somehow influenced our feelings of alienation from the male gender. I can say I have always felt disconnected from men.

I guess but I think it might be the other way around (GID causing fear of men). I just feel like being expected to behave like a man but having nothing in common with men really gave me a complex. Idk. It felt like... being a spy in a hostile place? Or something. + I was bullied a little as a child/preteen because my body looked feminine. I still haven't been to a swimming pool since (but then I am just self conscious about my body as a pre-op anyway). Lol

Quote from: Sia on October 15, 2012, 07:31:57 PM
I don't want to dismiss or invalidate the special feelings and experiences that come with being MTF, but as someone who's been raised as a girl, I can tell you that if you were to gather a hundred cis women in a room and ask them "raise your hand if you're the least bit afraid of men" less than a handful of them would keep their hand down. I only ever knew one woman who I'm sure wouldn't have raised her hand - she once sent a guy to the hospital after bludgeoning his face with her stiletto heel because he tried to steal her purse in the street.

In the society we live in, assuming the worst of men in the back of your mind when you present as a woman is not a case of paranoia or an irrational phobia, it is a basic survival skill. I'm not saying that all men are dangerous or pigs, but statistics can't be ignored. It's better than going in assuming they're all decent human beings and finding out they aren't the hard way.
If this fear is new and appeared post-transition, I'm afraid you may be just discovering one of the less pleasant aspects of the universal woman experience. It sounds awful but you do get used to it.

If the fear some of you experience is in any way related to your physical safety, I strongly recommend self-defense classes - there's a bunch of good videos on youtube if you can't afford them too. Having the intimate knowledge that you could very well defend yourself should the need arise gives a tremendous boost of confidence :)

(Sorry ladies for butting in if this thread/forum section is implicitly MTF-only, or if my input was unwanted and unneeded! I'm still learning the ropes around here and can't ever tell when people actually just wanted a friendly ear to vent  :-\ )

Thanks :)

I think it is both physically and psychologically motivated. I understand why a lot of other cis girls would fear men too. I think it's just that plus the added stress of being forced into the male social role which WOULD normally mean interacting with men a lot (but not in my case because it just meant avoiding men in the end...) while not having any common ground with them.

Self-defense classes are probably a good idea but tbh I hate fighting type things  :-\ it really sounds unpleasant so I will just be careful.

Quote from: DianaP on October 15, 2012, 09:53:34 PM
I don't think you should fear men, so much as bad people//actions. A man in and of himself isn't scary. The possibility that he might stab me after pulling a knife on me, however, would be, for example. I know a lot of good, albeit weird, men. Then again, I've never been one to talk.  ;) I love good men (in love with a great one now), dislike the bad ones, but never really feared any, if that makes sense.

Oh, and in regards to the original post--> I don't think men are all judging you. Just remember that people honestly don't care about judging every detail of every person they meet, especially men with their 5-second attention span. (Kidding  ;)) Maybe you're just being paranoid and looking for things that aren't there?  ???

Well I think it's just like... around a girl I know we will probably have at least something in common and probably be both willing to get along and there's not gonna be any weird feelings but with men it just feels so unpredictable.  Well it's better and worse now that I am FT... before I was afraid they would think of me as like their "buddy" or something and start expecting things.

I guess now it is the opposite, I don't know what they are going to think about me but maybe they will be too into me/creepy... luckily right now I go everywhere with my bf  :)

In the society we live in, assuming the worst of men in the back of your mind when you present as a woman is not a case of paranoia or an irrational phobia, it is a basic survival skill. I'm not saying that all men are dangerous or pigs, but statistics can't be ignored. It's better than going in assuming they're all decent human beings and finding out they aren't the hard way.

Statistics are being ignored.  Violence is not equalized geographically, nor in terms of class/social standing.  Though some people live in constant fear, there are large amounts of people who live lives with little to no fear.  Down on Turk and Taylor I don't trust anyone (outside of my crew).  Not the men, not the women (1/3 harmless, 1/3 crack/drug dealers, 1/3 drug addicted whores), not even the police - because the cops don't need you / and man they expect the same.  I'm hyper-aware at all times and I try to know where everyone within 10 yards of me is exactly and where they are moving to.  Nothing is more conducive to getting in trouble than walking around dazed and confused.

But hey, get me back in Sonoma Country, West Sonoma County in particular, and none of that stuff is in my head - not even anywhere near it.

Parking lot of a concert two hours after the show is over can be bad, research library at a major university, not so much.  Mostly it has to do with being alert and being aware of where you are and knowing that all things are not equal.  All men don't act the same, and in fact, few act the way you depict.





I strongly recommend self-defense classes - there's a bunch of good videos on youtube if you can't afford them too. Having the intimate knowledge that you could very well defend yourself should the need arise gives a tremendous boost of confidence
Me too, but in order for them to work you really have to work at it - hard - for a long time.  Sure you might get a trick move in on some drunk fool, but against any real thug you better be practicing it at the same level and rate your attackers do if you hope to come to a draw.   And skip the video, anyone you could defeat by watching a video could have been defeated without just as well.  Self-defense works only if you do it seriously, and constantly. 

QuoteI think it is both physically and psychologically motivated. I understand why a lot of other cis girls would fear men too. I think it's just that plus the added stress of being forced into the male social role which WOULD normally mean interacting with men a lot (but not in my case because it just meant avoiding men in the end...) while not having any common ground with them.

Self-defense classes are probably a good idea but tbh I hate fighting type things  :-\ it really sounds unpleasant so I will just be careful.

Oh definitely, as I said I didn't want to imply that it was the same thing for you, sorry if I came off as insensitive. I can't possibly know what it's like to walk in your shoes, but I understand why it might be different for trans women. I've always been really uncomfortable in all-women situations too, but I guess it's probably not the same thing at all.

Tekla > Yeah, I know that there's a lot of unexpressed variables in those stats, and of course context should be taken into account. I'm not saying that it's okay and expected for women to be afraid of all men all the time regardless of the relative safety of the actual situation. I just meant that, on average, women (or assigned-as-woman people) tend to be more wary of strange men than other men tend to be.

I don't really know what you meant by "few act the way you depict" because I didn't give any examples or mentioned specific behaviors. Of course only a few men truly are bad, but more than a few don't always realize when they're being too pushy in their attempts to be helpful/friendly/flirty - and when you're on the other side and can't tell which category they fall into, it's natural to be cautious (it can become a vicious circle though).

As for the self-defense videos, I didn't mean just watching them and expecting to get anything from it, I meant using them to practice with someone. It's not as effective as taking classes, but you can still get something from it.
I mentioned it more for the boost of confidence one can gets from it than for actually expecting to put it into practice.


Anyway, sorry for butting in and derailing the thread, I'll go back to my semi-lurking  :P

QuoteAnyway, sorry for butting in and derailing the thread, I'll go back to my semi-lurking- Sia

No need to go into lurking Sia  :)  Welcome to Susan's, your opinions have just as much value as anyone's

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Hey, like I said, I'm all for self-defense, not just as a video, or a class, but as a way of life.  It's good for you physically, mentally, and the better ones work on a spiritual level too.  As for confidence, I think that comes from putting the stuff into practice in the day to day, and it's more like enhanced awareness.  That whole 'spy' deal of knowing - feeling almost - when someone has entered that circle around you. 

I also think it's awesome for motivating people to learn how to run like hell.  We began, and ended classes with the guy I studied with for 15 years by running.  Part of that was strength, conditioning and getting all warmed up - but a bigger part was as Master Chu always said there were three rules for fighting on the streets.  One, don't fight - RUN.  Two, there is no such thing as 'a fair fight' outside of the Olympics - there are no rules.  Three, if you must fight, when you put that person down, make sure they stay down no matter what you have to do to accomplish that.  And that's pretty brutal stuff, stuff the average person won't/can't do for the most part.

And I just want people to be safe/safer, and I worry about too little knowledge being a dangerous thing.

Time and time again people start martial arts thinking that it will enable them to take on people bigger than them and win and what you learn in a class that has lots of real-time sparring is, more than likely, not.  If I have 50lbs. on someone if I can close the distance then that 50lbs is a HUGE advantage - one your training is not likely to overcome.  (Also, keep in mind that a lot of martial arts training is dedicated to overcoming pain, so even if you land a few good ones its not likely to stop me.)  Much better if I have 50lbs on you that you know you could most likely outrun my fat ass.  And that that is the best possible outcome.

Confidence is good (sexy in fact) so long as its kept in check, but even a touch too much leads to overconfidence and that's a killer.

And I say that because those guys who are bad, the thugs and thuglettes, the few who cause all these problems are real low-lives. I mean, not like this place here. No, I mean bad.  And they grow up practicing that kind of violence, they are skilled at it, they are used to it - thrive on it in fact (it is/can be it's own super-drug) - and getting to a level where you can take them on, at their game, on their turf, is in fact, a pretty high level.  Some piece of scum, human flotsam and jetsam, who is going to rape someone is going to need something more than a single Monkey Steals The Peach trick to stop them.

I've spend over 40 years now working in close proximity to highly over-agitated people awash in massive amounts of alcohol (and whatever else) and so I get to see a couple of those fights every year.  And contrary to the movies and TV where people slug it out, trading punches and such, pretty much 95% of the bar fights I've seen in my life last exactly one punch.  (Yeah, its one of the fun parts of the job.)

And, every now and then I also get treated to the 'Mister suburban dojo Taekwondo' putting their rule-based techniques into real life practice against some street thug, or security person, and it don't turn out so good for them.  Yeah, go ahead and gimmie that Bruce Lee Walker Texas Ranger roundhouse kick, I can't wait.  Because I'm (or whoever) going to catch that foot of yours up there in the air and then it's all over.  Because - going back to the stuff you learn in real time sparring - the LAST thing you ever want to do is take your feet off the ground.

So the advice about taking martial arts is good, sound and solid.  But it's serious stuff, and if your going to do it you have to be serious about it.  And then, after years of training and practice you'll know...

You better make your face up in your favorite disguise
With your button down lips and your roller blind eyes
With your empty smile
And your hungry heart
Feel the bile rising from your guilty past
With your nerves in tatters
As the cockleshell shatters
And the hammers batter down your door
You better run

Quote from: pretty on October 13, 2012, 02:12:36 PM

I know there are better guys than that out there but sometimes it feels like almost all guys think about is sex and that is all they can see in a woman, and even guys you thought weren't like that would surprise you if they said what they REALLY thought.

Lol Lady Gaga monsters, I love that, I guess I never met many guys like that.

Thanks Caleb  :)

I can understand that perspective too. It must be so hard growing up as the "girl" in the boys' only club, especially if you are a boy inside. It seems like after puberty everyone just took sides and girls and guys couldn't have real friendships anymore...  :-\

Well I know from personal experience that Tigger and .Caleb are really great guys. I think in, in a way, Caleb growing up on the girl's side of the fence has helped him become a gentleman and Tigger was born before kids became the spoiled brats they are today. :P

And actually, since I was bullied so much and seen as a 'gay male' thoughout my entire life, I've felt a lot of negative things against men for many years. It's taken a number of guys being friends with me before I've let go of those feelings. And I'm glad I did. I feel blessed to have Tigger and .Caleb in my life and finally not felt at odds with my Dad.

But I still have to deal with those jerks at work. And my patience with them ran out last night.

absolutely terrified... its like just the fact we missed out on being socialized in a high school setting as girls we are kind of stuck in this 13 year old girl fear of boys.  or at least thats how I feel sometimes.  going on dates with boys I just pretend to act like I know what I'm doing and try to be cute but inside I'm terrified

Quote from: oZma on October 16, 2012, 01:17:55 PM
absolutely terrified... its like just the fact we missed out on being socialized in a high school setting as girls we are kind of stuck in this 13 year old girl fear of boys.  or at least thats how I feel sometimes.  going on dates with boys I just pretend to act like I know what I'm doing and try to be cute but inside I'm terrified

Mmhmm it always feels like something is missing... like it is impossible to be as innocent as a cis girl relating to guys.. because even if you know how that they see you as a girl now there's still this ugly memory in your mind of a time when they treated you different and expected different things of you because they thought you were a boy... I wish I could forget that :-\

Quote from: pretty on October 16, 2012, 01:56:24 PM
Mmhmm it always feels like something is missing... like it is impossible to be as innocent as a cis girl relating to guys.. because even if you know how that they see you as a girl now there's still this ugly memory in your mind of a time when they treated you different and expected different things of you because they thought you were a boy... I wish I could forget that :-\

exactly, it's like I can't let go of this boy I used to be.  I can't imagine that a guy will ever like me, just being a ->-bleeped-<-.  if he saw what I used to be, he would be turned off and never want to talk to me.

so maybe its not a fear of men, but a fear of what they would think if they know I'm trans? like I can't imagine why a guy would even like me! just for sex?

Quote from: oZma on October 16, 2012, 02:07:49 PM
so maybe its not a fear of men, but a fear of what they would think if they know I'm trans? like I can't imagine why a guy would even like me! just for sex?

Well, that's more rational than a fear of men in and of themselves. Once again, not all guys are scumbags. One could genuinely like you for your personality.

I also have it. I dont know if its a natural thing, or if it was something to do about my past.

My mother and I lived 14 years of domestic violence until they got divorced and we went to live somewhere else. Besides my father, which I dint see ever again since we left, boys and even teachers were very abusive and aggresive towards me at school. I felt constantly humilliated every day of my "old life", so maybe that is why Im so insecure with myself and scared of men, as you say.