Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I remember somebody around here sarcastically proposing something like this: To discern the people with real GID from the ones that only have some sort of sexual fantasy, etc... Start them on Spiro or a similar antiandrogen, and when they start losing the male libido, erections, having testicular athrophy... See if they are truly interested on transitioning or they chicken out.

Has been something like this been done in real life? Or a case of somebody that started HRT and then discovered that it was not exactly waht he/she was expecting and stopped immediately?



BTW, how long it would take for a low starting dose to kill the libido?

Do natal women have no libido? Cyproterone acetate never killed libido for me, it just handed me the controls. I'm guessing there are countless who started HRT and decided it wasn't for them or backed off just enough. I met a few. Everyone reacts differently, so a difficult one to answer.

15A. How long does it take, if at all, to determine a reaction from hormones?

There is ALWAYS a reaction to taking cross sex exogenous hormones. If the individual has a history of gender dysphoria or as I would prefer to call it, Gender Expression Deprivation Anxiety, the primary reaction is a relaxing one. That is the individual experiences feelings of well being as the anxiety is relieved. If a non gender dysphoric person is exposed to cross sex, exogenous hormones, the opposite occurs; a state of anxiety is induced that goes away once the hormones are no longer being taken. The time period for all of this to occur is very short, ranging from hours to no more then a few days.

http://www.avitale.com/FAQ.htm#category%204 (http://www.avitale.com/FAQ.htm#category%204)

Quote from: bev2 on November 13, 2012, 12:01:56 PM
[If the individual has a history of gender dysphoria or as I would prefer to call it, Gender Expression Deprivation Anxiety, the primary reaction is a relaxing one. That is the individual experiences feelings of well being as the anxiety is relieved. If a non gender dysphoric person is exposed to cross sex, exogenous hormones, the opposite occurs; a state of anxiety is induced that goes away once the hormones are no longer being taken. The time period for all of this to occur is very short, ranging from hours to no more then a few days. [/i]

That's what I wanted to know. It makes me want to do some sort of experiment, like to get a real proof... Too bad I already have too many legal chemicals in my body at this time.

That thing is getting on my nerves, specially at night.

Quote from: Apple Seed on November 13, 2012, 12:25:29 PMThat thing is getting on my nerves, specially at night.

???

What 'thing'? 

Quote from: Apple Seed on November 13, 2012, 12:25:29 PM
That's what I wanted to know. It makes me want to do some sort of experiment, like to get a real proof... Too bad I already have too many legal chemicals in my body at this time.

That thing is getting on my nerves, specially at night.

There isn't a litmus test as such for GID. It would be great if there were. There are many who take HRT, feel great and then come to realisation only after they've done RLT and even SRS that it's not for them.

Quote from: bev2 on November 13, 2012, 12:59:15 PM
???

What 'thing'?

The one-eyed monster.I had a bit of peace while the body adjusted to the DHT blockers and it slept, but now...

Quote from: Tesla on November 13, 2012, 01:00:17 PM
There isn't a litmus test as such for GID. It would be great if there were. There are many who take HRT, feel great and then come to realisation only after they've done RLT and even SRS that it's not for them.

Having said that, the 'regret' rate is often quoted as 2% or less.

Personally I rather think that the litmus test for having GID is simply wanting to transition. Who would voluntarily turn their entire life upside down, expose themselves to medical risk and social ridicule and potentially lose all their friends and family for an uncertain outcome of unpredictable efficacy?

IMO transitioning is an act of desperation - tried after everything else has failed.

Quote from: Apple Seed on November 13, 2012, 01:21:22 PM
The one-eyed monster.I had a bit of peace while the body adjusted to the DHT blockers and it slept, but now...

Ah... that!  :o

Quote from: bev2 on November 13, 2012, 01:31:50 PM
Ah... that!  :o

Yup. I have ended discovering that the days on the drug adjustment period with libido reduction were quite great on tems on mind peace (and better sleep). No need to milk the cow for mental relief. If anti androgens would give me a bit of peace by keeping it under control, I would sign for a low dose. Although I don't think it would do much more than dutasteride for hair regrowth.

I think that's not a bad idea. Not perfect and not suitable as single criteria, but already better than sitting in an office for half an hour every few months and pit against each other the impatience and feeling of urgency of the patient and the psychiatrist's threat of enfing everything if hurried.

Ahem.

I have never taken a starting dose of cyproterone acetate per se - I started on a medium dose and went up to a relatively high one in a week. But in my experience, libido pretty mmuch died after about 1.5~2 weeks. A great relief.

Though it's mostly the physical part of it, the uncontrollable animal need that dies. "Mental" libido, the kind you consent to, can still appear. So I guess people who actually get enjoyment from sexual acts can still feel aroused pretty often.

And it varies depending on your anti-androgen. If you're put on spironolactone, it probably won't be as drastic or quick. Spiro, whilst nicer on your body, is a bit less effective, and more gradual than cyproterone.

Personally, I don't think that it would work as a sole gatekeeping technique.  As Tesla said, there have been too many cases of people getting HRT, going full time, SRS, and then living to regret it.  (Even though the numbers are few, and details are sketchy).

I've been on low dose for 8 months now, libido has dropped way down, and although some changes have occurred, I don't feel an overwhelming need to transition at this point in time.  If I didn't have to deal with all the social/career upheaval, I possibly would, but low dose HRT has been enough to keep the gremlins at bay enough that I can continue as is - it's just not worth it for me at this point in time.

It's so hard then...

Anyways, I wonder if anti androgens only before full HRT (to keep the T from doing more nasty things) would be good or detrimental for the transition.

Quote from: Apple Seed on November 14, 2012, 06:01:38 AM
It's so hard then...

Anyways, I wonder if anti androgens only before full HRT (to keep the T from doing more nasty things) would be good or detrimental for the transition.

I can't see how this would have a negative impact on transition. AAs would lift the pressures on the psychotherapy. Uncoupling your needs from your libido would give you clarity of mind. Personally, in your position, I'd be saying anything they wanted to hear to get them. The worries of T damage are understandable.

Quote from: Apple Seed on November 14, 2012, 06:01:38 AM
It's so hard then...

Anyways, I wonder if anti androgens only before full HRT (to keep the T from doing more nasty things) would be good or detrimental for the transition.

If it was going to take 5 or 10 years to start the transition then you would have a point, but in less than 12 month T is unlikely to make much more 'damage' than it already has done. If T worked as rapidly as you seem to worry about then we would all be craggy  faced baldies by age 21.

The AAs are more important for mental relief.

Dunno, If doing this would make the full HRT later less effective, or cause damaging effects. Having an extra of T on the body thanks to the DHT blockers and the fear of losing more voice pitch and other issues (I don't know if things can get worse at 30) makes me want to run and rush things.

Could be just me imagination, but it is as if I am getting far more vellus hair than a few months ago. Last year by this time I already noticed more changes (I never had hair on my fingers and toes before)

Quote from: Apple Seed on November 14, 2012, 06:28:42 AM
Dunno, If doing this would make the full HRT later less effective, or cause damaging effects. Having an extra of T on the body thanks to the DHT blockers and the fear of losing more voice pitch and other issues (I don't know if things can get worse at 30) makes me want to run and rush things.

Could be just me imagination, but it is as if I am getting far more vellus hair than a few months ago. Last year by this time I already noticed more changes (I never had hair on my fingers and toes before)

Make the full HRT later less effective? I can guarantee this cannot be so. Sounds like something that would be said by some dubious gatekeeper.

The body convert excess T to oestrogen via the aromatase enzyme

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromatase#Function (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromatase#Function)

Do not worry about excess T. In any case only 5% of T gets converted to DHT

Quote from: bev2 on November 14, 2012, 06:41:52 AM
The body convert excess T to oestrogen via the aromatase enzyme

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromatase#Function (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromatase#Function)

That's what happened to me when I was taking T and drinking heavy.
Within three weeks I started developing breast buds and had welcome emotional changes.

The only way anti-androgens alone, before initiating real HRT, can be harmful, is if you stay that way for years and years. Then, having no significant dose of either sex hormone, you'd start having issues.

But in the short and middle term, no issue.

It can be a huge help. Once you're freed from the overwhelming pressure of how your body's going to worsen (and yes, in a matter of just a year, things can get surprisingly worse - my Adam's apple appeared between 19 and 20, just as I was seeing the psychiatrist waiting for him to refer me to an endo), of the despairing libido, of the depressing aggressivity, you can engage in psychotherapy and pre-transition assessment effectively, with another idea in mind than telling them what's most advantageous so you can stop the damage ASAP.

Actually, I think everyone who's willing to transition should take anti-androgens after no more than 2-3 therapy sessions. It's just the right thing to do.

And deprived from testosterone, most real men will not feel very good. It's not absolute, but it's an additional marker/signal.