Susan's Place Transgender Resources

http://unchainprometheus.wordpress.com/2012/11/15/lgbs-in-a-t-month/ (http://unchainprometheus.wordpress.com/2012/11/15/lgbs-in-a-t-month/)

QuoteI have been really bothered for a long time by the LGBT tag. This is because what is actually happening is that two issues are being conflated. There is 1) Sexuality, and 2) Gender/Sex. I prefer LGBS (lesbian, gay, bisexual, straight) and TMCI (Trans, Metro, Cis, Intersex).

Note from Dalebert: Don't take my posting this as an endorsement. I'm just sharing his thoughts. I haven't even finished reading it all yet but I intend to. I don't feel good at all about separating the T from LGB. I see the two as very closely related personally. We talked about it on my latest show. Oh, and btw, it blew my mind when I discovered a blog called Unchained Prometheus. My radio show was called Prometheus Unchained when it started before it became Flaming Freedom! Don't know if that's just a coinky-dinky or something else. Either way it doesn't bother me at all. Just thought it was funny when I noticed it.

Metro?

Quote from: Padma on November 15, 2012, 01:22:11 PM
Metro?

Huh?

Quote from: Padma on November 15, 2012, 01:22:11 PM
Metro?

Metrosexual I think.

I couldn't read the whole blog post because I don't agree with a lot of what the persyn is saying.

I believe however that the T should be separate from LGB.

I'm going to explain exactly why I feel that way.

Cisgender folks tend to put T at the end of LGB when they're only talking about gay marriage. Um, that has nothing to do with being trans*. While yes, there are trans* folks that are also queer, it's a separate issue altogether. I persynally dislike when people put the T at the end but only end up talking about issues and problems that only related to the LGB community.

I also don't think that trans* "allies" should be given so much credit. You want a cookie for being a decent humyn being? Naw, don't think so.

Did you know that trans* allies get a whole WEEK, whereas trans* day of rememberence (spelling) is only... Well ONE DAY of the whole year?

And I've had issues with cisgender LGB folks. Tons of issues. Just because someone is LGB doesn't mean they can't be trans*phobic. And actually, I know tons of trans*phobic LGB folks.

Which is another reason I think they should be separated.

I've just read it through. Some points are well made.

Transgender is about identity.

Being transgender doesn't mean we necessarily have to completely transision to the opposite sex. It doesn't necessarily mean our sexuality will, based upon our birth sex, be gay or straight or anything else. It is simply a need within us to express our identities is ways that are not generally conforming to a norm. It may manifest itself in our appearance or availablity permitting, a total SRS.

LGBS is largely about sex. For some, the identities of those we make love to can be very important. Some partners of those who have come out as transgender have said they cannot deal with what, to them, is a 'homosexual' relationship. That much aside, LGBT is still about sex.

Where I take issue, serious issue with this writer is where I take the same issue with other. Their assertion of some genetic absolute.

They quoting of the XX and XY rules, for example. I doubt many who do this, do so from the point of knowledge. But accept that their motives are largely motivated by ignorance.

The issue is, in reality, considerably more complicated than XX and XY. Those are terms for high school. They are simple to explain and understand.

One of the most feminine young women I have ever seen was, at the age of 15, diagnosed with Androgen insensitivity syndrome. I'm sorry, but the mere detail that she is sterile dosn't make her a man.

That she would be just as sterile as a man should demonstrate that these things are a lot more complicated than can be explained by the teenager's first book on genetics.

Let's see, a trans only movement.  Don't you think it might suffer from the little matter that most of our best advocates want nothing to do with the label and won't come within a mile of it as a stand-alone deal?  Of course the whole 'strength in numbers' thing - well, you must have been absent that day in school.

I believe wanting to separate them is silly, this isn't some sort of sexuality club. The reason there's a T in LGBT is because it makes no difference to a bigot if he sees a group of drag queens and attacks them. Unless you're straight and cisgendered like most of the population, they hate you, and standing alone makes us weaker. I also think that wanting to add an S is silly. Straight people (and when I say straight in this case it's meant to describe someone who's both straight and cisgendered) are not beaten up by other straight people for being straight. The entire point of LGBT is acceptance.

Quote from: geoangelcandybutch on November 17, 2012, 06:18:46 AM
And I've had issues with cisgender LGB folks. Tons of issues. Just because someone is LGB doesn't mean they can't be trans*phobic. And actually, I know tons of trans*phobic LGB folks.

I'd like to point out that there's also tons of homophobic transsexuals (some of which have been here), lesbians who hate gay men, gay men who hate lesbians, radical feminist lesbians who hate everyone with XY chromosomes, gay men who hate everyone who isn't a gay man, bisexuals who feel superior to gays and lesbians, and there's definitely a ton of gays and lesbians who don't like bisexuals.

Quote from: geoangelcandybutch on November 17, 2012, 06:18:46 AM
persyn

persynally

humyn

All I saw was this and it was really annoying. Please don't do that.

A reminder  :police:

Quote10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.  This includes but is not limited to:

    Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term
    Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more legitimate, deserving, or more real than any others

Quote

Quote from: Zythyra on November 17, 2012, 08:55:04 AM
A reminder  :police:

Quote10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.  This includes but is not limited to:

    Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term
    Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more legitimate, deserving, or more real than any others

In case this was also aimed at me, I will take this opportunity to point out that I was not advocating anything. Simply agreeing with the assertion that gender is between the ears while sex is between the legs.

I did strongly take issue with the writer over their unnecesary use of psuedo science to embelish their argument.

But since the point of the discussion was the two subject matters of the blog then it hardly seems like bashing to agree with one and disagree with the other.

Seems the comment wasn't directed at me after all. Apologies for the misunderstanding

Quote~RoadToTrista~ I'd like to point out that there's also tons of homophobic transsexuals (some of which have been here), lesbians who hate gay men, gay men who hate lesbians, radical feminist lesbians who hate everyone with XY chromosomes, gay men who hate everyone who isn't a gay man, bisexuals who feel superior to gays and lesbians, and there's definitely a ton of gays and lesbians who don't like bisexuals.

I'm very well aware that there are homophobic trans* folks. I know some myself. But this doesn't mean that I should just be okay with trans*phobic cisgender LGB folks. Or that I should just automatically want to have the T included in the LGB.

I have no problem with folks wanting the T to be included. That's up to other folks. But for me, and for my feelings, I think they should be separated.

QuoteMaidofOrleans All I saw was this and it was really annoying. Please don't do that.

I would appreciate it if you didn't tell me how to spell words. I persynally spell these words differently. When I refer to other people directly and they ask me not to refer to THEM specifically with an alternative spelling, I'll do that. But when talking in general, I use the alternative spellings.

QuoteZythyra A reminder 

Quote
10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.  This includes but is not limited to:

    Advocating the separation or exclusion of one or more group from under the Transgender umbrella term
    Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more legitimate, deserving, or more real than any others

In case this is in reference to what I said: I'm not saying that there should be any separation or exclusion within the transgender community. I was talking about separating the T from the cisgender LGB. I'm sorry if I came across as wanting to exclude or separate those within the trans* community.

And in case I came across as bashing any one, not what I was trying to do. I was just trying to state that I've had many problems with LGB cisgender folks, and how I have a hard time with the T being tacked to the end when it's usually silent.

Quote from: geoangelcandybutch on November 18, 2012, 02:50:12 AM
I would appreciate it if you didn't tell me how to spell words. I persynally spell these words differently. When I refer to other people directly and they ask me not to refer to THEM specifically with an alternative spelling, I'll do that. But when talking in general, I use the alternative spellings.

I personally find it offensive. It comes off as misandry. If you actually understood the etymology of those words you might not have cause to do it.

Quote from: MaidofOrleans on November 18, 2012, 03:05:08 AM
I personally find it offensive. It comes off as misandry. If you actually understood the etymology of those words you might not have cause to do it.

I don't think misandry exists, as do a lot of other people I know.

But let's agree to disagree with our opinions.

I'm sure there's a block feature if you have too much of a problem with my spelling of these words.

Yeah... if anyone wants to detach from the group, by all means feel free. I however stand by the GLBT because I feel I am better off there than I am alone. Many of us have a sexuality that falls under it so yes I feel the T should stand tall and proud where it is :)

~proud Transgender woman and ally.

QuoteI'm inclined to think that we're grouping together not because we're similar, but because we experience similar prejudice. We're under the same umbrella because we're largely being spat on by the same people.

This is also very true.

I'm inclined to think that we're grouping together not because we're similar, but because we experience similar prejudice. We're under the same umbrella because we're largely being spat on by the same people.

I also agree that sometimes people bandy about LGBT when they really just mean G, with a bit of L (and a smidgeon of B).

I'm uncomfortable with spelling designed to exclude men, for the same reason that I'm uncomfortable with 2nd-wave feminism that excludes trans women - or any exclusivity.

Quote from: Padma on November 18, 2012, 03:48:44 AM


I'm uncomfortable with spelling designed to exclude men, for the same reason that I'm uncomfortable with 2nd-wave feminism that excludes trans women - or any exclusivity.

Yet many men (especially cisgender men) exclude womon all the time! And have for many years. Sexism isn't over. I don't see the problem.

However, I do have a problem with feminism excluding trans* womyn (and other DMAB [designated male at birth] trans* folks) yet include trans* men and other DFAB (designated female at birth) trans* folks (like myself). I also don't like that WOC (womyn of colour) are also excluded within feminism. This is why I usually avoid calling myself a feminist.

Quote from: geoangelcandybutch on November 18, 2012, 04:18:59 AM
Yet many men (especially cisgender men) exclude womon all the time! And have for many years. Sexism isn't over. I don't see the problem.

I understand that - but this site is all about inclusivity and support. So I wouldn't want to see anyone put off using this site because of exclusivist language.

Quote from: Padma on November 18, 2012, 04:28:56 AM
I understand that - but this site is all about inclusivity and support. So I wouldn't want to see anyone put off using this site because of exclusivist language.

So does this mean when I'm on this site I have to change the way I spell things? Even though that's what I feel most comfortable with? Is spelling those words the way I spell them?

And to be honest, those words aren't meant to exclude men. They're just a different way to spell the words. It means the same thing as before.

You're right, people who don't like how you spell things should read other posts or threads, or set their account to ignore you. Anyone who needs assistance with ignoring threads or individual members should contact a Staff member. Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on November 18, 2012, 06:19:31 AM
You're right, people who don't like how you spell things should read other posts or threads, or set their account to ignore you. Anyone who needs assistance with ignoring threads or individual members should contact a Staff member. Hugs, Devlyn

Thank you for saying this.

I find it better to ignore something that bothers someone, than to argue because then no hard feelings come of it.

I continue to benefit from the partnership between the gay/lesbian and trans communities in my area. The Gay and Lesbian Community center in Baltimore has its own building where my biweekly Trans support group meets. It's unlikely that a "Trans community center" could muster the support for its own building.

I've benefited from Hearts and Ears, a resource for Gay, Lesbian, and Transgender populations supported by our state. It has a full-time and several part time staff members. It's unlikely the state would award a similar sized grant only for the benefit of the Trans community alone.

I sponsor the Gay/Straight alliance at the school where I work. It's also a safe place for a couple of Transgender students who come there. If it were just the Trans/Cis alliance, it's unlikely it would exist at all.

I'm hoping the discussion of whether Trans people should sever our ties with the Gay/Lesbian community remains a purely academic exercise. There would have been far less support for me available had it been a reality.

Quote from: geoangelcandybutch on November 17, 2012, 06:18:46 AM
And I've had issues with cisgender LGB folks. Tons of issues. Just because someone is LGB doesn't mean they can't be trans*phobic. And actually, I know tons of trans*phobic LGB folks.

Which is another reason I think they should be separated.

Absolutely! We just talked about some of those hypocritical bigots on the show while discussing the Trans Day of Remembrance. Hypocritical bigots are even worse than the regular ones because they should know better. They've experienced bigotry themselves and still don't learn.

The irony here is that the cisgendered LGB folks most likely to agree with you about separating the T are the transphobic ones and the ones who want to keep it there are the trans-friendly ones.

Do you feel that separating it would help more of those LGB folks to stop being transphobic or would it enable them? Do you feel keeping it as it is would mean fostering alliances and a faster path to understanding and equality or is it better to be isolationist? Does that figure into your opinion at all? If not, shouldn't it?

Quote from: geoangelcandybutch on November 17, 2012, 06:18:46 AM
I also don't think that trans* "allies" should be given so much credit. You want a cookie for being a decent humyn being? Naw, don't think so.

I like cookies and I don't mind a little pat on the back now and then. I don't think anyone minds those things when they do a good job, but that's not why I do it. I do it because I want allies helping to spread the message that we're all individuals entitled to the same rights and respect. We are stronger together, but more importantly we are practicing what we preach and being consistent and avoiding hypocrisy when we behave in an inclusive manner instead of a separatist and isolationist manner. That makes the liberty message resonate so much more clearly.

QuoteDid you know that trans* allies get a whole WEEK, whereas trans* day of rememberence (spelling) is only... Well ONE DAY of the whole year?

Did you know that November is the trans month of remembrance? This cisgendered gay man did and I talked about it on my LGBT show, a show in which we probably give the T more than 25% coverage. And we don't do it to get a cookie or a pat on the back. We do it because that's where the heat is right now. There's a lot more trans-related bigotry crap going on right now than there is LGB crap. There's just not as much work to do on LGB issues. It feels like a downhill path at this point. And my gut is telling me that we will get past the hump on trans issues much faster because of all that progress that has been made which we can learn from the LGB activism and which the people we're trying to reach and educate have also learned from.

On a simpler level, the relationship seems obvious to me. We're all facing bigotry based on rigid and tyrannical expectations of people based on biological/assigned gender. I have gotten crap all my life for being attracted to men. Why? Because I'm biologically/assigned male and with that comes rigid expectations of who I am allowed to love. That's one facet of a person's personality tied to gender expectations. Gender expression is another. We should all be free to live as our true selves.

Quote from: dalebert on November 18, 2012, 01:29:50 PM
Absolutely! We just talked about some of those hypocritical bigots on the show while discussing the Trans Day of Remembrance. Hypocritical bigots are even worse than the regular ones because they should know better. They've experienced bigotry themselves and still don't learn.

The irony here is that the cisgendered LGB folks most likely to agree with you about separating the T are the transphobic ones and the ones who want to keep it there are the trans-friendly ones.

Do you feel that separating it would help more of those LGB folks to stop being transphobic or would it enable them? Do you feel keeping it as it is would mean fostering alliances and a faster path to understanding and equality or is it better to be isolationist? Does that figure into your opinion at all? If not, shouldn't it?

The reasoning for me wanting it to be separate (and I'm a trans* persyn by the way), is because of the fact that the majority of focus is on the LGB. Mainly gay marriage. I don't care about gay marriage right now (not saying I don't want it to happen, it should, but that's not my priority right now).

And there are TONS of cisgender LGB folks that speak over trans* folks. I've had a cisgender ex-girlfriend try to tell me she's not trans*phobic because she dated me. People can date trans* folks and still be trans*phobic. There are cisgender folks (and a lot happen to be LGB) that will EXPECT cookies and "pats on the back" for being friends with a trans* persyn and being "nice" to trans* folks and all that. And then when they DON'T get cookies and "pats on the back" they get furious and say rude things like "but I'm a GOOD trans* ally!" etc etc. I see it over and over and over again.

There are trans* womyn (mainly TWOC [trans* womyn of colour]) being murdered and the majority of cisgender LGB folks don't care about that. "Oh let's worry more about gay marriage and stuff like that instead". This is why I have a hard time being friends with cisgender folks. I don't get along with straight cisgender folks, and I have an even harder time getting along with LGB cisgender folks because they expect more because "we're all apart of the same community".

Just because we're all apart of the LGBT thing, doesn't mean our experiences are the same. White gay men are going to have different experiences from gay men of colour. White lesbians are going to have different experiences than lesbian womyn of colour. White trans* folks (this includes me because I'm white) are going to have different experiences than trans* people of colour will. And DFAB (designated female at birth) trans* folks are going to have different experiences than DMAB (designated male at birth) trans* folks will.

White gay men are going to have it the easiest. It's true. That may be hard for folks to hear, but it is true. And white folks in general (regardless of LGB or T status) are going to have it better in general.

Look at the majority of trans* womyn being killed. Most of them are TWOC (trans* womyn of colour).

I hear more about trans* folks being murdered, than I do white gay men right now.

QuoteI like cookies and I don't mind a little pat on the back now and then.

I'm sorry, but I'm not here to give you cookies. Nor a pat on the back. Regardless of how good an "ally" you may be. I'm not trying to be rude here, and if I'm coming across as such, I'm sorry. But that isn't going to change how I feel. And I have a hard time with gay cisgender men too. And I'll explain why: I've been turned down by so many gay cisgender men because of the fact that I don't have a penis. And there are cisgender men that'll date a pre-op trans* womon just because she hasn't had the surgery yet and still has a penis.

There are tons of cisgender folks out there, especially cisgender LGB folks, that only care about getting that pat on the back or cookies. You may say you're not one of them, but I'm not going to easily trust a persyn just because they say something. I don't trust easily.

People get turned down for lots of reasons.  Sometimes said, or sometimes unsaid.  I'd never say "hey honey I don't date women who don't have real jobs..."... but I don't, and I've had to find ways to dance around that.  Just because someone rejects you, even based on genitals/or lack there of, does not equal a phobia, which has to be irrationally based.  It's more likely they just know what they like and want, and that's not irrational.

And gay marriage (which, in the big, bad end is simply changing the marriage contract from 'husband' and 'wife' to 'party a' and 'party b') provides a benefit to lots of trans persons.  And with the end of that battle in sight, it will be interesting to see what direction the community takes, if it takes one at all.

Quote from: geoangelcandybutch on November 18, 2012, 10:53:20 PM
And there are TONS of cisgender LGB folks that speak over trans* folks.

Yeah, I've already agreed with you on that and I'm trying to look at it from the point of view of that being a problem that needs to be solved and what is the best way to solve it. You've keep making sweeping statements about groups of people categorized by a particular trait and you're projecting a lot onto them by the category they fall into. You've mentioned cisgender gay men several times in a very negative light, and it's fine to point out there's a big problem in general but...

Quote
There are tons of cisgender folks out there, especially cisgender LGB folks, that only care about getting that pat on the back or cookies. You may say you're not one of them, but I'm not going to easily trust a persyn just because they say something. I don't trust easily.

...but people deserve a basic benefit of the doubt to begin with. Okay, sure--don't loan me any money or go out on any dates with me or whatever until you've gotten to know me better (not asking, obviously. Just making a point). That's common sense. But if you don't extend that basic respect to another person that you would like them to extend to you, then you're being prejudiced which is overtly hypocritical. You're making a lot of sweeping statements about people based on a category they belong to like cisgender gay male and you seem to start off with a different level of trust of a total stranger based on those categories before you've even gotten to know them.

I don't need pats on the back from anyone as I said. That's not why I do what I do. Obviously just being decent doesn't call for it. I agree. When I mentioned it, I was talking about when someone actually makes an honest effort to do positive activism for equality. And that's what I'm trying to address. If you want LGB folks to work for T rights and vice-versa, it's more effective IMHO to not work to separate us and file and categorize us.  It's particularly hypocritical and unhelpful to your cause to tell people "I don't care about your issues but you should care about my issues". It won't change my attitude, fortunately, because I'm not going to project the impression you're making on me onto other trans people.

It's even mistaken to look at them as completely separate issues because they are really issues that affect everyone. I have trans friends I care about and it's a big issue to ME if they get hurt. Trans-related violence is based on perceptions and there are plenty of LGB folks who are gender-bendy and might be subject to such violence if someone perceives them as trans even if they don't self-identify as such. It's a big issue for trans folk if they can't get married to someone they love because the government won't change their gender marker or is putting them through the ringer and taking a long time to do it and the government won't respect their choice of who they want to marry due to their government-assigned gender. For these reasons, what is commonly referred to as "gay marriage" but is more accurately referred to as "marriage equality" will positively impact a LOT of trans people, including the completely straight ones.

There is a lot of negativity here even by my normal standards... A lot of projecting and a lot of unneeded ire directed at our allies. In the few groups I went to that were glbt I have to say I felt nothing but acceptance there even if I was one of 3 trans in my particular day going there.... something something about looking a gift horse....

/sad snowpaw :<

EDIT

almost let my real name slip :O

I think this is going to be my last post on this.

I've been through a LOT. I've dealt with a LOT. None of you know ANY of my stories.

I may judge a group of people right off the bat, but that's to PROTECT myself. I'm going to assume everyone is the same, until proven otherwise. Because if I just trust every new persyn I meet, I'm going to be the one hurt in the long run. And that's not something I can afford. I may only be 21 years old, but I've been through a lot.

I can't sit here and trust someone just because they say they're a good persyn. I can't sit here and trust someone just because they're new to me. Sorry, but I can't. I've trusted the wrong people in the past, and got hurt because of it.

And me assuming a certain group of people is all the same, is to protect myself. And there's nothing wrong with that.

And I said gay marriage isn't my PRIORITY. I didn't say I didn't want it to happen. I didn't say it shouldn't happen. I said it shouldn't be the priority and it's not MINE.

Like I said, this is probably going to be the last post of mine on this topic.

My views are still the same.

Hi,

When one looks at the dieversity we have in the world is it any wonder people have problems with each other,

If this is about every one being the same i think we need to look out side of our selfs, im not a dresser or trans. & really have nothing in common with the gay people wether they are women or men.

What i have in common is we are human we eat many foods the same some like sports as i do just maybe not yours because i live here in New Zealand, we drive cars that are similer  so you get the idear,

i dont have much to do with any trans or dresser's or gay people & iv no need to, as a group im out numbered any way, in fact the gay people unless some are my friends & thats very few, most dont wont any thing to do with us who are different.  so theres no point. not where i live, im the only one whos intersexed, pop 3,500  that is a member of our community, or our groups our membership is about 1000 people with in those groups, & most know me any way,

And as far as it goes im just a woman & most of my friends are women.

As to the L G B T we dont have one or in our two Towns pop of 16,000 & 38,000 i know of 4 dresser's, heard of two trans, & thats it,

The other point ill make is im  involved with in our community here, so really theres no point of a group made up of gays  trans or dresser's & as for my self i would not have much in common ,as a normal woman. unless they beccame a member of our groups & i dont see that happening here.

...noeleena...

I've been through a LOT. I've dealt with a LOT. None of you know ANY of my stories.

Nor, apparently, do you know ours.  It could be that your stories are not the norm.