Susan's Place Transgender Resources

In my previous life, I used to always be the possessive one falling for the Hot Babe who I would objectify and place on a pedestal.

Now I am the Hot Babe who is possessed, objectified and placed on the pedestal and do not know how to deal with it! Being a lesbian ain't easy without alot of practice.  ::) ??? >:(

Find a better partner that won't objectify you.  :P

I'm with Diana on this one.  Find people that are more down to earth.

Enjoyed while it last!!!

Quote from: girl you look fierce on November 18, 2012, 08:47:34 PM
Karma sucks...

+1

Well, here's what Cameron Diaz, who knows a thing or two about being hot, had to say on the subject to the London Sunday Times this weekend. She was asked about doing sexy photo-shoots ...

"It's empowering. I'm not some young girl with the photographer going, 'Will you take your clothes off?' I'm like [mimes stripping], 'How does this look?'

"They're like, 'Today we're not going to put anything other than bras and heels on you,' and I'm like, 'These heels are not high enough.'

"I'm a woman, I know how to handle myself. I know what I feel comfortable doing and I know my sexuality. I think every woman does want to be objectified. There's a little part of you at all times that hopes to be somewhat objectified, and I think its healthy."

Quote from: Carlita on November 19, 2012, 09:04:38 AM
"I'm a woman, I know how to handle myself. I know what I feel comfortable doing and I know my sexuality. I think every woman does want to be objectified. There's a little part of you at all times that hopes to be somewhat objectified, and I think its healthy."

Objectified: 1: to treat as an object or cause to have objective reality
Desired: 1: Strongly wish for or want (something).

I think Cameron may be confusing two different concepts. People have a tendency to forget that "objectified" is not a synonym for "desired." I want to be wanted. I don't want to be treated as inanimate and without agency.

In fact Cameron makes it very clear that she is NOT being objectified. That she is maintaining control over her experience.

I think Cameron might understand her situation better than outsiders do, I'll give her the benefit of the doubt that at least that she knows what's she's doing.  And in things like photo shoots she sure is an object.  It's not about what a smart girl she is, how great a GF she's make, how awesome she is as a mom - it's about her body as canvas and that's pretty much it (and at that, it's a pretty small window where she gets to do that).  In much the same way that I heard a designer once refer to the runway models as 'moving hangers.'  It's not about them, it's about the clothes, and the ones that are successful do not get there by wearing the clothes as much as they have the ability to let the clothes wear them.  If you - as the audience - are focused on the model and not the clothes, then they just did the job wrong.  It's not saying anything else about them, their personality, their other interests, the rest of their lives, it's about doing a job - that specific job - that's all.  BTW, that's why so much of the fuss over "plus size" models gets coverage in the press, but not on the job - to the degree that you're focused on what size she is (and not what the clothes are like), then the point is being missed.  The job is to sell the clothes, not to sell the model.  She's just a moving hanger.  Just like Ms. Diaz is pretty much a canvas to be painted, covered and shot.

And at points we're all objects.  Everything in life does not take into account the totality of our existence, but might just be one thing about you - and that's it.  In the way that one of my crew people on a tour once told me that I treated them like they were gear - and I had to remind them that, in fact, I treated the gear much better as the gear was the show, and they were not.  I'm sure they were wonderful people with a myriad of skills - but all I needed was a warm body with a strong back to move crap from point A to point B and back again later.  The rest of didn't matter - nor should it have.  And when anything outside of a warm body with a strong back became an issue, then it was to the detriment of the job, not to it's enhancement. (Which is why I (and just about every other boss type in the world, does not really want to hear about anyone's problems/issues/personal life at work - at least when were working)

In fact, a vast number of the people you'll interact with - well you do it as objects, and vice-versa.  They are staff, you are customer, teacher/student, crew/rock star, doctor/patient.

The point isn't whether Cameron is being objectified. That is certainly arguable. The point is that she said she WANTED to be objectified, and that ALL women want this.

Cameron is also making the argument that she is the artist who is controlling her body as canvas, that she has agency. Whether you agree with the argument or not, it runs counter to her point that she wants to be objectified. Which indicates to me that she is using the word incorrectly.

So, while your argument that at certain points we are all objects is interesting... it isn't really on point. Unless you also want to argue that we all desire to be objectified?

I'm with Tekla ... I think Cameron knows what she's saying and means it. And I think she's right: it does mean an awful lot to a great many women to be the object of male desire and (just as, if not more important) female approval, admiration and even envy. This is a deeply un-PC thing to say, but it's indisputable that women scrutinise one another very intently as objects, comment (often very bitterly) and compete ... why else would women's magazines and female-targeted websites be full of images of female celebrities in their new dress (often with a tick or cross), on the beach, looking too fat or too thin, walking down the street with (gasp!) no make-up on looking a little dowdy, etc, etc? It's ingrained incredibly deeply in female culture and I don't think that blaming it on an oppressive, patriarchal society - the old-school feminist response - is either an accurate or adequate explanation.

That said, I agree with Sarah that Cameron, like a lot of more mature women, understands the process a lot better, is much more in touch with herself, much more assured in knowing what works and what does not and, to that extent, an active agent in her own self-objectification.

One final thing - and I've said this before, but I think it bears repetition: a lot of what MTFs experience as being 'clocked' or 'read' may just be the experience of being scrutinised at the same level as any other woman, both by men and women alike. The only men who normally experience anything like that - as men - are either famous, or gay.

So, while your argument that at certain points we are all objects is interesting... it isn't really on point. Unless you also want to argue that we all desire to be objectified?

I would argue at points, yes, we all do want it in some degree.  It's liberating to just be that warm body with a strong back once in a while, and not have to be all that, all the time.  It's also part of a basic coping mechanism that you really can't treat every single person you encounter like a fully actualized human being, sometimes you just have to take them in the role they are in - which, to be sure, reduces them to objects.  I'm sure the bellboy who carries our stuff up to the room in Vegas has hopes, dreams, a much fuller life, perhaps they have aspirations reaching far beyond being a bellboy.  I'm also sure that so long as the bags get to the room, I'm really not caring much either.  It's Vegas baby, I've got other things to occupy my mind - and bellboy doesn't have the time to have a long involved conversation anyway, he's got more bags to move.  It's not like I'm the only person checking in that day.
 

And the point is...that you're OK with all that.  You're fine with your own objectification of people, it's just that in this one area you're against it.  And in that area, there are lots of people who are just fine with it too.  Some even find a way to make huge money off of it.  (And even the ones who don't bank on it, have found ways to it work for them.  It's why Pretty Girls Rule the World - and they do.  Trust me on that one.  A 'pretty girl' can get a bunch of guys to do just about anything she asks them to do.  Some LA Babe® shows up with the band to sell merch and I can't keep my guys from helping her, make it some dude from Los Angeles and I can't threaten them into helping that guy.)

Of course, that's exactly to what people are objecting to.  That pretty girls get treated one way, the other girls, another way.

The only men who normally experience anything like that - as men - are either famous, or gay.
Hardly.  Have you never hung out with 'the girls'?  The ones I know I've heard objectify men frequently (different body parts, different clothing standards, same behavior) or you've never hung out with some really good looking guy.

Quote from: DianaP on November 18, 2012, 07:57:28 PM
Find a better partner that won't objectify you.  :P

My young friend, but that it were so simple.

Quote from: Jamie D on November 20, 2012, 04:00:18 PM
My young friend, but that it were so simple.

What?

Quote from: tekla on November 20, 2012, 03:35:32 PM

The only men who normally experience anything like that - as men - are either famous, or gay.
Hardly.  Have you never hung out with 'the girls'?  The ones I know I've heard objectify men frequently (different body parts, different clothing standards, same behavior) or you've never hung out with some really good looking guy.

My bad ... what I meant was that straight guys, going about their everyday lives aren't aware of the degree to which women objectify them, because it's not nearly to overt and obvious to them as objects.

But, yes, I've got two sisters, two daughters and I've spent years working with predominantly female staffers in the features sections of newspapers and magazines. I know EXACTLY what the girls are saying! :)

Quote from: DianaP on November 20, 2012, 04:04:50 PM
What?

Finding a better partner.  It is not that easy.