Susan's Place Transgender Resources

As usual I have something to say :P and I am not sure how it will be received so let me preface this with this....Often when talking to Brooke she says things critical about herself. Like she nit picks different traits or features that she deems masculine or unacceptable for passing etc. Ok so here goes...

So many of the things Brooke is worried about (and some of you from posts I have read) seem off base to me as a GG. For instance...Brooke thinks she can't wear spaghetti strap tops because her shoulders are too wide. While this MAY be the case for some it really is not the case for her. In fact, I am sure my shoulders are broader then hers and many of yours and I wear spaghetti strap tops all the time. I see what she is seeing, but I also see that the *view* she is looking from is skewed because of GD and what she *thinks* a GG is supposed to look like. I know there are charts and this and thats that say females are this and that etc, but the reality is we come in all different shapes and sizes.

I have an hour glass shape, very busty and hippie. I am not skinny, but I am not obese. I have a bit of an athletic build and am somewhat muscular from Martial Arts, but also that is the way my genetic makeup is. Do I look in the mirror and wish I was smaller? Prettier? Had a better nose? Straighter teeth? Longer hair? Narrower shoulders? Sure I do. Do I do things that negate my flaws? Of course. Everyone does. Do I dwell on them? NO and nor should any of you.

I understand how important passing is and granted as a GG it isn't something I have ever really worried about, but I think that many of you - Brooke included, worry about things you really do not need to worry about. I hate the fact you pick yourselves apart, because after a day of picking there has got to be little *positive* left. I am not an unattractive woman and I am also not a beauty, but most of what makes me attractive to others is my personality and my confidence level, not my appearance. I find when I let my flaws be magnified by myself then I am miserable and self loathing. I don't feel pretty or sexy or even female at those times. If I don't when I do that how can any of you?

Of course, no one is how or who they want to be.. part of life and being human, especially in our culture. My guess is that as TGs, we are so used to being self-critical, feeling wrong deep-down, in body and soul. Yes, everyone should be at peace with themselves, at some point.. not so easy.. but it's what we strive for, in therapy, with all the changes we make, all the obsessive thinking we all do. At some point, saying "knock it off!" is appropriate!
Blessings, Tara

Quote from: Tara on May 07, 2007, 11:45:52 AM
Of course, no one is how or who they want to be.. part of life and being human, especially in our culture. My guess is that as TGs, we are so used to being self-critical, feeling wrong deep-down, in body and soul. Yes, everyone should be at peace with themselves, at some point.. not so easy.. but it's what we strive for, in therapy, with all the changes we make, all the obsessive thinking we all do. At some point, saying "knock it off!" is appropriate!
Blessings, Tara

Tara I agree, but I think it is more than that. I really am getting the impression that some of what ya all think is the way it should be or has to be is incorrect.

I mean, yes I know that in general there is x-amount of space from the bottom of a mans nose to the top of their lip, or that a female chin is usually only so wide etc....but really....look at all the women you all encounter everday. The variences are huge! Do I look like a man because I have broad shoulders and muscular arms? I don't think so.

I cannot agree with you more.
I think part of the fault is kind of an inner dialog in the TG community, that by in large is NOT healthy.  I cannot count how many times I have seen people talk about BA or FFS, when in reality neither was necessary.  Basically I know some of the TS girls who are B cups who talk about BA.  I am sorry, at that point it is not necessary (though I may argue it may not be necessary at all in nearly all cases).  Or people who basically look dead on female talk about FFS.  There is an extreme amount of self criticism, and quite a bit of it comes from a type of social isolation coupled with certian ideas that are largely accepted in trans community. 
The thing is most TS look inward so much that they often forget to be observant to notice the wide variation in women out there. There is a point to being self critical, but sometimes there needs to be a bit of a reality check as well.  There would be a great deal of cost savings and less recovery time from surgery. 

The truth is because of the amount of social isolation there is rarely somebody there saying "you know that is completely unnecessary".

It is true women are critical of themselves at times, but trans women take it beyond a point of reason at times.  Because of this self acceptance is never really achieved by these people. 

I am fortunate enough to have quite a few of my close friends be GG and be very accepting.  They actually have been helpful about this. 

Quote from: Amy T. on May 07, 2007, 12:42:31 PM
I cannot agree with you more.
I think part of the fault is kind of an inner dialog in the TG community, that by in large is NOT healthy.  I cannot count how many times I have seen people talk about BA or FFS, when in reality neither was necessary.  Basically I know some of the TS girls who are B cups who talk about BA.  I am sorry, at that point it is not necessary (its not even necessary if you are an A cup and have a small frame).  Or people who basically look dead on female talk about FFS.  There is an extreme amount of self criticism, and quite a bit of it comes from a type of social isolation coupled with certian ideas that are largely accepted in trans community. 
The thing is most TS look inward so much that they often forget to be observant to notice the wide variation in women out there. There is a point to being self critical, but sometimes there needs to be a bit of a reality check as well.  There would be a great deal of cost savings and less recovery time from surgery. 

The truth is because of the amount of social isolation there is rarely somebody there saying "you know that is completely unnecessary".

It is true women are critical of themselves at times, but trans women take it beyond a point of reason at times.  Because of this self acceptance is never really achieved. 

I am fortunate enough to have quite a few of my close friends be GG and be very accepting.  They actually have been helpful about this. 

yep yep, that is what I am getting....I also think it has something to do with what each TG perceives as *pretty*. I mean obviously every woman (well most) wants to be pretty or sexy. That is just part of who we are. So for a TG transitioning and trying to reach their ideal of girlhood I think they are looking at the very images of women that make GG's wanna kill themselves. Unrealistic women.

Ironically, I had this same conversation yesterday with my wife... but about HER.

She has this delusion that she looks "weird" to people, like her various parts (nose, mouth, teeth, hair, etc.) are abnormal or something. She's actually a bit afraid to even be seen at times.

And I TRY to tell her she's adorable, cute... with a body and face most GGs and M2Fs would KILL for. But she just won't see it, she sees individual PARTS, taken one at a time and out of context... which makes ANYONE look odd. I mean, have you ever seriously studied a nose up close? I mean they are WEIRD things... just stuck on a face, sticking out... bizarre.

But that's not how people perceive others. They see a PERSON, not parts. They get an overall impression, make a snap categorization, and let it go at that. Unless you give them something REALLY incongruent (beard and skirts come to mind), they don't go any further. The impression "sticks" until invalidated by something WAY outside the norm.

Same with her being cute... it's not about her nose or mouth or anything as parts, it's how it all comes TOGETHER. Taken individually, anything can look odd out of context. But taken together as a whole, they can create incredible beauty.

~Kate~

Quote from: Kate on May 07, 2007, 01:17:13 PM
Ironically, I had this same conversation yesterday with my wife... but about HER.

She has this delusion that she looks "weird" to people, like her various parts (nose, mouth, teeth, hair, etc.) are abnormal or something. She's actually a bit afraid to even be seen at times.

And I TRY to tell her she's adorable, cute... with a body and face most GGs and M2Fs would KILL for. But she just won't see it, she sees individual PARTS, taken one at a time and out of context... which makes ANYONE look odd. I mean, have you ever seriously studied a nose up close? I mean they are WEIRD things... just stuck on a face, sticking out... bizarre.

But that's not how people perceive others. They see a PERSON, not parts. They get an overall impression, make a snap categorization, and let it go at that. Unless you give them something REALLY incongruent (beard and skirts come to mind), they don't go any further. The impression "sticks" until invalidated by something WAY outside the norm.

Same with her being cute... it's not about her nose or mouth or anything as parts, it's how it all comes TOGETHER. Taken individually, anything can look odd out of context. But taken together as a whole, they can create incredible beauty.

~Kate~

Maybe you should start having conversations with yourself and take a bit of your own advice. ;)

TWC,

You are so right, and I guess I'm one of the worst.  I confess.  As I sat in on Sandy's consultation with Dr. Z, and then with a professional makeup artist I learned all of those same things.  And I thought I should just give up.  But I learned that a lot of GG's fix those things with clothing choices or makeup!  So, in the end, what's the biggie?  I mean I want a new nose, higher cheek bones, eyelid surgery, and we could go on.  But will it make me more feminine?  Not really.  I am trying to be the best I can, then free myself to slavery to things I cannot change.  Than, in the end, WILL make me more feminine.

Thanks for a thought provoking post.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

Quote from: Kristi on May 07, 2007, 03:08:59 PM
TWC,

You are so right, and I guess I'm one of the worst.  I confess.  As I sat in on Sandy's consultation with Dr. Z, and then with a professional makeup artist I learned all of those same things.  And I thought I should just give up.  But I learned thaty a lot of GG's fix those things with clothing choices or makeup!  So, in the end, what's the biggie?  I mean I want a new nose, higher cheek bones, eyelid surgery, and we could go on.  But will it make me more feminine?  Not really.  I am trying to be the best I can, then free myself to slavery to things I cannot change.  Than, in the end, WILL make me more feminine.

Thanks for a thought provoking post.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

Kristi,
If that is your picture, you definately DO NOT need FFS. 

Some of the people who already posted on this I have read about them desiring FFS or BA, that do not need it (and I will be the FIRST to tell you if I have seen your picture that you do not need it).  Prime examples of how one can be extremely critical.  The truth is it is often absolutely not necessary.  There is a line with being transsexual and making yourself a victim of patriarchial ideas of ideal beauty as a female.  When you pass as female and begin taking on the bad societal concepts of beauty and feminity and obtaining surgery to obtain that...it is crossing that line where its not gender dysphoria anymore, and you become a victim of impossible ideals of feminity that are largely imposed by the patrairchy. 

I am sorry, if you pass, you do not need FFS or BA.  I may sound a little extreme in that opinion, but if you have a naturally feminine face and body, you are exchanging it for one that is not and just perpetuating a NEGATIVE stereotype with regards to TS whether you realize it or not. 

Quote from: Amy T. on May 07, 2007, 04:06:28 PM
Kristi,
If that is your picture, you definately DO NOT need FFS. 

Um, and get this: she's not on HRT or anything either, yet she is passing perfectly.  If she ever did decide to transition, she would be one of those people who had an easy time in regards to face and body.  I'm not sure about hair though since I've only seen her with wigs.

Quote from: Amy T. on May 07, 2007, 04:06:28 PM
I am sorry, if you pass, you do not need FFS or BA.  I may sound a little extreme in that opinion, but if you have a naturally feminine face and body, you are exchanging it for one that is not and just perpetuating a NEGATIVE stereotype with regards to TS whether you realize it or not. 

Yeah, I know.  For some of us it just takes a bit of time to accept ourselves.  I have gone back and forth on FFS because there is a certain way I would love to look, but then on the other hand I have many people tell my I look hot (even people who do not know I'm not GG).  But that is with makeup and my hair done how I like it.  Still, the second reason is really helping me change my opinion of myself.  It may yet be a while and perhaps may involve me doing bolder and bolder things while still passing to become confident enough in myself.  At this very moment, I'm quite happy with myself.

As for BA, I just need my breasts to fill out a little (not necessarily a bigger cup).  According to my doctor, this should happen with HRT still and SRS might be enough to give it the boost it needs.

Quote from: Amy T. on May 07, 2007, 12:42:31 PMpeople who basically look dead on female talk about FFS. 

>:D


One word: vanity.

There are things that bother me about my face, others consider them inconsequential, I pass flawlessly without question and according to many I'm rather attractive. However I know I'd be happier in myself if I had my forehead done, nothing else bothers me, just the forehead and some day when I have the money/time out from work/studies I'll do it.


Though I am in two minds about this, on the one hand I love that my look is very au natural and I don't want to loose that. I can't stand being percieved as fake or phoney so i have a strong aversion to cosmetic surgery, however what's there at the moment bugs me allot and i know it could be fixed.....


fyi this is a very raw picture of me: http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/8963/photo191xf8.jpg

When people expect lower of you, you just have to beat their expectations, and then them themselves. And demonstrate that their opinion is pure ignorance to the obvious facts.


I live my life like that, and I won't make exceptions for this. It's not about being perfect, not at all, you just have to beat the ones who look down upon you at their own game.

Quote from: Melissa on May 07, 2007, 04:32:13 PM

Quote from: Amy T. on May 07, 2007, 04:06:28 PM
Kristi,
If that is your picture, you definately DO NOT need FFS. 

Um, and get this: she's not on HRT or anything either, yet she is passing perfectly.  If she ever did decide to transition, she would be one of those people who had an easy time in regards to face and body.  I'm not sure about hair though since I've only seen her with wigs.

Quote from: Amy T. on May 07, 2007, 04:06:28 PM
I am sorry, if you pass, you do not need FFS or BA.  I may sound a little extreme in that opinion, but if you have a naturally feminine face and body, you are exchanging it for one that is not and just perpetuating a NEGATIVE stereotype with regards to TS whether you realize it or not. 

Yeah, I know.  For some of us it just takes a bit of time to accept ourselves. 

Melissa and Amy,

I was essentially agreeing with what you are saying, though I appreciate the compliments.  I think you have to realize that there is one element here that is crucial for some of us:  time   I am still pretty new at this and self-acceptance is not easy, nor is it accomplished overnight.  But I do think it's the most important thing about passing.  I'm learning.  I just sometimes ask for a little affirmation and patience.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

The popoular phrase is 'you are your own worst critic'. I can empathize with some of you in a way. I always want what I do to be perfect, but it rarely is.  Speaking from personal experience, self esteem is probably the primary building block of who we are. Its important that we do all we can to address the core root of the issue, be it therapy, confronting the people that hurt us in a manner that is safe for us, and finding healthy, non-harmful ways for us to move past the issues that cause the emotional pain. Hence, don't introspect, because you'll only depress yourself. Rather share your ideas and thoughts; accept yourself for who you are and, whilst trying to improve yourself, still know that you are not somehow inferior. You are only inferior if you let yourself be. :)

Quote from: Mawd on May 07, 2007, 04:57:03 PM
Though I am in two minds about this, on the one hand I love that my look is very au natural and I don't want to loose that. I can't stand being percieved as fake or phoney so i have a strong aversion to cosmetic surgery, however what's there at the moment bugs me allot and i know it could be fixed.....

fyi this is a very raw picture of me: http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/8963/photo191xf8.jpg

Actually, Mawd, I wouldn't know your birth sex if I didn't know you from these forums.

In myself, when I criticize how I look and obsess over minutiae that no one would ever notice besides myself, it seems to be a lack of confidence, a fear, that I try to overcome by being as perfect as I can be in my presentation.

This lack of confidence is directly related to my self-esteem as an evolving woman, rather than a finished one, and it feels a bit like what I've seen in my teen aged granddaughter's approach towards herself.  I hope that in time, and after many reassurances and validations, I will be able to accept myself as I am and know that no matter how I might look, I'm the woman on the outside that I am on the inside.

hugs & smiles
helen

Quote from: togetherwecan on May 07, 2007, 11:34:23 AM
As usual I have something to say :P and I am not sure how it will be received so let me preface this with this....Often when talking to Brooke she says things critical about herself. Like she nit picks different traits or features that she deems masculine or unacceptable for passing etc. Ok so here goes...

So many of the things Brooke is worried about (and some of you from posts I have read) seem off base to me as a GG. For instance...Brooke thinks she can't wear spaghetti strap tops because her shoulders are too wide. While this MAY be the case for some it really is not the case for her. In fact, I am sure my shoulders are broader then hers and many of yours and I wear spaghetti strap tops all the time. I see what she is seeing, but I also see that the *view* she is looking from is skewed because of GD and what she *thinks* a GG is supposed to look like. I know there are charts and this and thats that say females are this and that etc, but the reality is we come in all different shapes and sizes.

I have an hour glass shape, very busty and hippie. I am not skinny, but I am not obese. I have a bit of an athletic build and am somewhat muscular from Martial Arts, but also that is the way my genetic makeup is. Do I look in the mirror and wish I was smaller? Prettier? Had a better nose? Straighter teeth? Longer hair? Narrower shoulders? Sure I do. Do I do things that negate my flaws? Of course. Everyone does. Do I dwell on them? NO and nor should any of you.

I understand how important passing is and granted as a GG it isn't something I have ever really worried about, but I think that many of you - Brooke included, worry about things you really do not need to worry about. I hate the fact you pick yourselves apart, because after a day of picking there has got to be little *positive* left. I am not an unattractive woman and I am also not a beauty, but most of what makes me attractive to others is my personality and my confidence level, not my appearance. I find when I let my flaws be magnified by myself then I am miserable and self loathing. I don't feel pretty or sexy or even female at those times. If I don't when I do that how can any of you?

An 'occupational hazard'. While I do admit that this can become obsessive, there is merit in being 'situationally aware' and circumspect.

I find it [going to excess] almost impossible to avoid and this indeed, adds a great deal of stress to life.

It's a product of both condition and history.

Many of us have a healthier perspective of this; I do not and I have indeed, found this to be very stressful and painful.

Quote from: Mawd on May 07, 2007, 04:57:03 PM

Quote from: Amy T. on May 07, 2007, 12:42:31 PMpeople who basically look dead on female talk about FFS.

>:D


One word: vanity.

There are things that bother me about my face, others consider them inconsequential, I pass flawlessly without question and according to many I'm rather attractive. However I know I'd be happier in myself if I had my forehead done, nothing else bothers me, just the forehead and some day when I have the money/time out from work/studies I'll do it.


Though I am in two minds about this, on the one hand I love that my look is very au natural and I don't want to loose that. I can't stand being percieved as fake or phoney so i have a strong aversion to cosmetic surgery, however what's there at the moment bugs me allot and i know it could be fixed.....


fyi this is a very raw picture of me: http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/8963/photo191xf8.jpg

You look great. 

I am terminally jealous of those who still have quite a bit of hair on their head when they transition (it is my only regret with transitioning at 28).  See what you have is a little issue with yourself.  I have a big issue that will keep me from passing without a wig and eventually hair transplants (I am passable now, though flat chested, with a wig).  That is my only problem, and it is an expensive one to fix in a real way.  Luckily it is probably the only issue that is easy to cover up (literally) if you are smart about it and have good aesthetics.  (To tell the truth one of my GG friends has begun wearing wigs because she has basically killed her hair through extensive use of hair dye, and she is 21.)

Everybody has vanity, but it is knowing what is vanity and what is actually needed.  This is hard to distinguish for some.  I have a pretty good grasp on what I would like to look like with HRT, and I have no issue with it.    To me it would bring the small changes to push me into looking female.  I need HRT, I need SRS, and eventually I will get sick of wigs and will want to fix the hair problems.   

i believe it depends on the person. some people are very hard on themselves, they torture themselves over the smallest and most petty mistakes and make their own lives a living hell by not taking things easy. on the other side, some people never question themselves or the validity of their actions, and end up being selfish and insensitive jerks that only care about their personal welfare and harm everybody else around them. both extremes are bad. i'm trying to be in the middle.

Hmm... I'd like my spine shortened by five inches, my legs lengthened by about 4 inches, and my rib cage reduced by 10 inches.  I'd like a longer neck, smaller boobs, and a smaller head. Can you do that stuff? Otherwise, I look fab!  ;)

;)

Seriously, I don't worry too much how tom boyish I look. I don't worry much about what I wear around here either.  It's self confidence girls ... the way you walk, talk, and behave!  That's what gets you by.

Cindi

Quote from: Cindi Jones on May 08, 2007, 04:47:16 AM
Hmm... I'd like my spine shortened by five inches, my legs lengthened by about 4 inches, and my rib cage reduced by 10 inches.  I'd like a longer neck, smaller boobs, and a smaller head. Can you do that stuff? Otherwise, I look fab!  ;)

;)

Seriously, I don't worry too much how tom boyish I look. I don't worry much about what I wear around here either.  It's self confidence girls ... the way you walk, talk, and behave!  That's what gets you by.

Cindi

I was talking to another sister about dieting, just last night. I told her that I was fanatical about my figure and diet, but she topped me when she said that she was engaged in Bulimia and that she would stop the practice when she attained her 'ideal weight'.

I do not at all like the sound of this and I am concerned about her.

I know all about the Bulimia thing.

Quote from: Cindi Jones on May 08, 2007, 04:47:16 AM
Hmm... I'd like my spine shortened by five inches, my legs lengthened by about 4 inches, and my rib cage reduced by 10 inches.  I'd like a longer neck, smaller boobs, and a smaller head. Can you do that stuff? Otherwise, I look fab!  ;)

;)

Seriously, I don't worry too much how tom boyish I look. I don't worry much about what I wear around here either.  It's self confidence girls ... the way you walk, talk, and behave!  That's what gets you by.

Cindi

Cindi, don't take this personally, but you're a twit!  :D :D ;D

You're a twit, but I love and respect you.  :)

Rhonda, that's the best compliment I've had all week!  Of course it's only late Monday.... or very early Tuesday morning...  and I live alone out in the boonies... and my dog doesn't talk much let alone give me compliments!

Naw... my wish list is totally absurd!  I was just kidding.  You notice there's not anything on that list that most people mention when altering their body.

I'm tall and I'm proud.  I used to wear heels to work every day.  I fixed the thing that I didn't like and I'm fine with the rest of me for the most part.  I tend to worry much more about other things. 

Cindi

In another thread, I just put I looked pre HRT,
and seeing those pictures you'd understand why
I would think I needed lots of "help".

But, after 5 months on HRT, I looked female to most others, but not too myself... there was that long nose! That brow bossing that stuck my eyes in deep shadow in the sun. I always had hair accross my eyes outside.

Also, 3 times in a month, a guy read me and HAD to say something to his girlfriend in a voice high enough I was sure to hear (like that proved their masculinity, that sure pissed me off!) Women who read me, I'm sure there were some at that time, kept their opinions to themselves.

At the point of these photos. 5 months into HRT.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi199.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa85%2FKeirasthings%2Fatmonth4.jpg&hash=b3b6f025d2a8eeea90dae0394e9a03cbf495bda2)

As you can see, the angle and lighting makes a big difference in how "female" how looked and I was just tired of being self consciuous about it. I took the decision to do get a rhino+get my brow bossing done Would any one else had done it, who knows? All I know is that

I've estatic about the results. That angle picture right in the noon sun would have looked much different before. In this case, I don't think it was vanity, although my mother keeps saying that doing the brow bossing was useless... I beg to differ. BTW, initially, I only wanted to fdo the bossing, that's the one I was most self-conscious about; but, Brassard (yes the one who does SRS) convinced me to do the nose too (it cost a lot less when doing 2 ops at the same time, only cost $3000 extra to do the rhino).

That's me, last week, 10 months HRT, 4 months post surgery

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi199.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa85%2FKeirasthings%2FIMG_2516mod.jpg&hash=d5d0ede76af8fc4feabf2cb2b22fdbe23c28df5b)

That looks like good work keira.

The trouble I have with most FFS jobs is when they just look fake and when you do minimal bone work like that shown it works really well, it's like you're peeling back the effects of T. 


Someone mentioned wide shoulders a while back.... Ever noticed how supermodels have really wide shoulders? it's an attractive feature and it makes you look thinnerin proportion, my shoulders are not especially wide but they're about right for my frame, it's not worth getting obsessive about things like shoulders/height when most natal girls would kill to have that supermodel look, I'm 6'1 and instead of spending every waking moment hating how tall I am I just work with it and see it for the advantages it brings. 

Yes, I have the same criticism Mawd,
Many want (and some particular surgeons encourage it) try for a summun of facial feminity, not  the female version of themselves if T had not modified things. The results, range from fantastic (if that's the look that suits you) to a totally bland, generic female face. Esthetics is a subtle thing not to be triffled with lightly; most attractive female face are striking, to be striking there has to be some angles somewhere (jaw line, nose, eye orbit, etc.). Esthetically, a higher nose bridge is sought and many of the most beautiful women, have eyes accented by a significant orbital rim; It acts like a natural makeup. People with little orbital rims and low nose bridges often need makeup, so their eyes are not lost in their face.

In my case, I could have set back my orbital rim further (bensimon, who works in brassard's office, does the more aggressive FFS), but then I would have had to get a much lower nose bridge and a button nose (the basic doctor O look). With my strong cheekbones, and small upper eyelid, it would have thrown my whole face out of balance. I would probably have ended looking chineese. Which is fine, if you're indeed chinese; but that wasn't me.
.
Anyway, from straight on, in not too bright lights, I look subtly different, but mostly the same. I see that the eyes are much more open; before, I felt my brow crushed my eyes.  From the side or at an angle, I look much different and that coupled with the fact that most people have trouble remembering faces from angles means they won't recognize me until I face them straight on.

Quote from: Keira on May 08, 2007, 05:56:48 AM
In another thread, I just put I looked pre HRT,
and seeing those pictures you'd understand why
I would think I needed lots of "help".

But, after 5 months on HRT, I looked female to most others, but not too myself... there was that long nose! That brow bossing that stuck my eyes in deep shadow in the sun. I always had hair accross my eyes outside.

Also, 3 times in a month, a guy read me and HAD to say something to his girlfriend in a voice high enough I was sure to hear (like that proved their masculinity, that sure pissed me off!) Women who read me, I'm sure there were some at that time, kept their opinions to themselves.

At the point of these photos. 5 months into HRT.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi199.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa85%2FKeirasthings%2Fatmonth4.jpg&hash=b3b6f025d2a8eeea90dae0394e9a03cbf495bda2)

As you can see, the angle and lighting makes a big difference in how "female" how looked and I was just tired of being self consciuous about it. I took the decision to do get a rhino+get my brow bossing done Would any one else had done it, who knows? All I know is that

I've estatic about the results. That angle picture right in the noon sun would have looked much different before. In this case, I don't think it was vanity, although my mother keeps saying that doing the brow bossing was useless... I beg to differ. BTW, initially, I only wanted to fdo the bossing, that's the one I was most self-conscious about; but, Brassard (yes the one who does SRS) convinced me to do the nose too (it cost a lot less when doing 2 ops at the same time, only cost $3000 extra to do the rhino).

That's me, last week, 10 months HRT, 4 months post surgery

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi199.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa85%2FKeirasthings%2FIMG_2516mod.jpg&hash=d5d0ede76af8fc4feabf2cb2b22fdbe23c28df5b)

Kiera, you look a bit like Tori Amos

Quote from: Mawd on May 08, 2007, 06:37:08 AM

Someone mentioned wide shoulders a while back.... Ever noticed how supermodels have really wide shoulders? it's an attractive feature and it makes you look thinnerin proportion, my shoulders are not especially wide but they're about right for my frame, it's not worth getting obsessive about things like shoulders/height when most natal girls would kill to have that supermodel look, I'm 6'1 and instead of spending every waking moment hating how tall I am I just work with it and see it for the advantages it brings. 

That would be me talking about my wide shoulders and what I had said was I do not feel having broad shoulders makes me look any less of a woman.

TWC,

My wife always asks me, "Why do you hate yourself?"  I always answer, "I do not hate myself."
.......

BTW Keira  you are pretty.
................

W

I agree with Wendy. You are pretty, Keira.

Is this a new trend that so many people are posting photos? It makes me feel good to know that so many are coming along and are feeling confident about themselves. I also like the posts where the writers acknowledge some imperfections, but are handling them so well.

I just had a guy tell me I was beautiful yesterday while I was walking from my work to the train.

Apparently my face must be fine. :)  As for my body itself, other than the genitals, I'm pretty happy with it.

QuoteKristi,
If that is your picture, you definately DO NOT need FFS. 

Some of the people who already posted on this I have read about them desiring FFS or BA, that do not need it (and I will be the FIRST to tell you if I have seen your picture that you do not need it).  Prime examples of how one can be extremely critical.  The truth is it is often absolutely not necessary.  There is a line with being transsexual and making yourself a victim of patriarchial ideas of ideal beauty as a female.  When you pass as female and begin taking on the bad societal concepts of beauty and feminity and obtaining surgery to obtain that...it is crossing that line where its not gender dysphoria anymore, and you become a victim of impossible ideals of feminity that are largely imposed by the patrairchy. 

I am sorry, if you pass, you do not need FFS or BA.  I may sound a little extreme in that opinion, but if you have a naturally feminine face and body, you are exchanging it for one that is not and just perpetuating a NEGATIVE stereotype with regards to TS whether you realize it or not. 

Congradulations darlin', you have just crossed over to the real world.   ;)

Welcome sistah-grrrl, T.

So, getting back to the orignal question.
Others could I said that I looked fine,
and I didn't need to spend 10K to fix myself.

But, you have to remember that we have a big body
image problem, we KNOW we would not look like
this if T had not done its job. For some, T didn't
have too much effects and they can live with them; for
others, the effect have been traumatic for their self-image
and fixing them will bring congruence between mind and
body.

I don't think its being hard on yourself to abhore having
a significant brow bossing or a big honk nose.
To feel the bossing like a brick on my forehead
sticking out!!  Its the possibility, with the popularisation of FFS,
of fixing this problem, that gave me hope, that
helped me take the step forward to transition, I
did not want to see a male in a mirror; and in my
case, until doing the surgery, in spite of HRT, that's
what I saw.

I think being critical of oneself is only bad if its about something you cannot change. Our process is about so many changes that some find repugnant, or incredible, or whatever; why would wanting FFS be different than wanting SRS, they're both about matching mind and body.

There are things, like the possibility of having children, that we have to give up, and I can live with that.... Because I have too. But, if it was suddenly possible to have an uterus implanted safely, I'd be first in line.

BTW, I do think you look great Mawd. I saw the pre-photo and you look 10000 times better as a woman :-). The bossing looks very light in that picture, but its hard to judge it without having a light shining straight above (you saw the my middle picture in the sun, that's probably the least flatering picture I have; my bossing looked horrible in that one). A similar picture of you could tell if really you have a significant bossing, or its all in your head, or on your forehead... In this case ;-). I think its very light, because I saw your old male pictures in the sun and it wasn't really visible on them  (when its significant, its visible). One advantage of removing the bossing is that it opens the eye even more; you already have large beautiful innocent eyes, so I can't imagine how they could be more open :-) (my eyes are more the piercing mysterious type).

An example of a very  attractive female with significant bossing (and a significant jaw line) is the model/actress Molly Sims. It shows clearly in pictures of her; she's in the TV show Vegas.


Thanks, for the compliments everybody; many tell me this, but I still have my old depressed image in my head. Feeling pretty and also confident is something I'm working hard on. Tori Amos... A bit yes. I supposedly look like Molly Sims, though I think I look more like Vanessa Marcil (another actress on the same show), Jennifer Love Hewitt (Ghost Whisperer) or Rebecca Romijn (she has a very good jaw line). Maybe I look like everyone ;-).

Quote from: Keira on May 08, 2007, 12:27:20 PM

So, getting back to the orignal question.
Others could I said that I looked fine,
and I didn't need to spend 10K to fix myself.

But, you have to remember that we have a big body
image problem, we KNOW we would not look like
this if T had not done its job. For some, T didn't
have too much effects and they can live with them; for
others, the effect have been traumatic for their self-image
and fixing them will bring congruence between mind and
body.

I don't think its being hard on yourself to abhore having
a significant brow bossing or a big honk nose.
To feel the bossing like a brick on my forehead
sticking out!!  Its the possibility, with the popularisation of FFS,
of fixing this problem, that gave me hope, that
helped me take the step forward to transition, I
did not want to see a male in a mirror; and in my
case, until doing the surgery, in spite of HRT, that's
what I saw.

I think being critical of oneself is only bad if its about something you cannot change. Our process is about so many changes that some find repugnant, or incredible, or whatever; why would wanting FFS be different than wanting SRS, they're both about matching mind and body.

There are things, like the possibility of having children, that we have to give up, and I can live with that.... Because I have too. But, if it was suddenly possible to have an uterus implanted safely, I'd be first in line.

There is a point where a line is stepped over where it is no longer about being TS and looking more feminine.  By definition there are image issues that is true.  FFS is VERY differant than SRS though, because for many...it is never needed and it is just vanity, and it is sourced in a lack of perspective and observation, impossible societal standards and what I call "community isolation".  I am a person who views FFS as necessary for some (those who do not pass) and completely cosmetic for others (even when they say they still saw a male, especially when they are extremely feminine looking to begin with) where it does not stem from being trans anymore.  I know I am an outsider in this perspective in the trans community, but it is a perspective that I think is actually a bit more grounded.  I am by far the largest critic of FFS.  I don't necessarily see it as a congruence issue, and I don't see it as important as SRS.  I think this is where being overly critical of oneself, coupled with ideals of the patriarchy regarding femininity, coupled with the the idea of some in the trans community that FFS is as important as SRS come to create an unhealthy dialog regarding FFS.   

I don't think a real debate over FFS has really taken place where there is a critical perspective on the issue and a deeper analysis.  I think any commentary has come from those who are major supporters of it, many of who have the same "trans community capture" and lack of perspective that I mentioned. 

I understand the need for congruency (I have major major issues with it myself), but at the same time self criticism, community capture, and unrealistic ideals imposed on women in society do take over in a way that really should not be there, and as much it can be argued that it is congruence, it really is not anymore.  Sometimes outside or critical perspective on these issues can be very helpful, but this is where fear and shame do take over for many. 

Maybe all of my ideas have been schooled into me by my riot grrl and feminist friends over the years, along with my own perspective on these issues of being somebody with a gender studies background.  The trans community does fall into the worst traps of the patriarchy sometimes, and there really needs to be a dialog on these issues to break itself free.  There really is a lack of discussion with regards to what is congruence, and what stems from a lack of a wider perspective (looking almost exclusively inward without a meaningful outside perspective). 

As much as I understand the arguement you are stating (and the proponents of FFS) Keira, I still see major flaws in it.  Even if you can change something, the criticism of yourself may be completely unjustified and it is usually a lack of an outside neutral (yet supportive) voice that perpetuates that inner criticism.  As much as this can be personal, that societal element is what proves to be a barrier to self acceptance.

Keira wrote:

QuoteThat's me, last week, 10 months HRT, 4 months post surgery

Keira, it was worth every penny. The changes are subtle but make a world of difference.

Cindi

Keira, I am not going to criticize you for the minor amount of surgery on your face.  It was very subtle but it did make a huge difference in your profile, and I can see why you were self conscious about it.  If I just saw the front of your face I would have said it was not necessary, but looking at the old profile, I could see why you thought it was necessary. 

Amym, I don't take much personally anymore, I'm kind of getting mellow.
But, I do like a good discussion as long as it stays away from personal attacks.

Feminist theory (if I can call it that) is itself very provincial and insular and that's why it is withering in the general population.

A theoritical assault on patriarchy won't matter much if someone can't find a job or a partner because of their appearance

First, who decides that a TS passes enough, that alone has as many meanings and degrees as there are TS's and external point of views on TS's. The implication itself of not passing depends on the macro and micro environment the person lives in; someone living in TS aware SFO may have a difference perspective on this than someone living in India or Cleveland. In some places, people don't blink at a man in a dress with a beard (like in the gay village in Montreal), while in other places, someone who passes almost perfectly risks a beating and possibly death every day. At work it has a different meaning than in a private situation with a possible partner or with friends. It also depends on if you want to stay stealth or not.

So, passing is not simple, not a yes or no proposition in the absolute, but a rich cameleonesque tapestry.

So, should we cue ourselves on the person with the most sensitive TSdar on earth or just go for the average one in our local environment? Of course, there's no real way to find out what's that average is (though we can get an approximation), or who is this super duper TS detector person, so we take a guess, mix this with our own perception of how we should look (which itself is influence by society, may it be patriarchal or not...) and hope for this level of seemless integration into society. Since its so hard to really know, we leave ourselves a margin and may overcompensate.

The important part is that our goals are realistic and the disphoria ends once we've reached them. If that's not the case, and someone always want more changes without ever being happy; then we are entering the "michael jackson" territory and hopefully help will be sought for this problem before it gets out of hand.

Quote from: Keira on May 08, 2007, 04:02:54 PM
or who is this super duper TS detector person

I tend to be one of those people.  I had honed my "detector" to a very high level of sensitivity in order to evaluate myself so that I could look for my flaws that really stuck out and correct them.  Most of the time my appearance does not set it off, but every so often it does.  As for reading other people, they can look very female and I will still usually read them.  Voice is probably the number 1 thing that gives people away though, rather than the face.

Quote from: Keira on May 08, 2007, 04:02:54 PM
Amym, I don't take much personally anymore, I'm kind of getting mellow.
But, I do like a good discussion as long as it stays away from personal attacks.

Feminist theory (if I can call it that) is itself very provincial and insular and that's why it is withering in the general population.

A theoritical assault on patriarchy won't matter much if someone can't find a job or a partner because of their appearance

First, who decides that a TS passes enough, that alone has as many meanings and degrees as there are TS's and external point of views on TS's. The implication itself of not passing depends on the macro and micro environment the person lives in; someone living in TS aware SFO may have a difference perspective on this than someone living in India or Cleveland. In some places, people don't blink at a man in a dress with a beard (like in the gay village in Montreal), while in other places, someone who passes almost perfectly risks a beating and possibly death every day. At work it has a different meaning than in a private situation with a possible partner or with friends. It also depends on if you want to stay stealth or not.

So, passing is not simple, not a yes or no proposition in the absolute, but a rich cameleonesque tapestry.

So, should we cue ourselves on the person with the most sensitive TSdar on earth or just go for the average one in our local environment? Of course, there's no real way to find out what's that average is (though we can get an approximation), or who is this super duper TS detector person, so we take a guess, mix this with our own perception of how we should look (which itself is influence by society, may it be patriarchal or not...) and hope for this level of seemless integration into society. Since its so hard to really know, we leave ourselves a margin and may overcompensate.

The important part is that our goals are realistic and the disphoria ends once we've reached them. If that's not the case, and someone always want more changes without ever being happy; then we are entering the "michael jackson" territory and hopefully help will be sought for this problem before it gets out of hand.

I don't really agree with you with regards to feminist theory.  Its alive and well (thankfully the modern ones have dropped the awful opinions of trans people).  It has had a major resurgance with blogging (Pandagon, the Broadsheet, Feministing, I blame the Patriarchy).  Every time it gets dismissed and people write it off, it tends to come back in a better form. 

There is a point where overcompensation takes on an extreme form.  I would say many who go to Doctor O. and the 40k surgery at a young age when they are completely passing (and rather pretty) before hand is a prime example of this extreme form. 

You are right the environment is very key to how one passes.  Living in a major urban area will be much safer than those who live in Rural America.  For the most part transsexuals have not learned the lessons of thier queer brothers and sisters: pick a city that is queer friendly.  Because as much as you pass even visually, there may always be that one person who figures it out.  In other words nobody passes 100% of the time, no matter how much surgery. 

Passing though should not be the most important thing.  Self Acceptance should be. In many cases they are one and the same. Generally speaking this is up to the individual.  Some people have deeper problems outside of just the dysphoria, which make self acceptance very difficult.  Others just are more likely to achieve it no matter what they look like.  There are varying degrees of self acceptance.

Like I said, I am not critical of those who seek out FFS where appearance is a barrier for living a normal life. I will be the first to say, that whether the changes are minor or major, whatever is needed for that person to have a functional life.   I am extremely critical of those who have extremely feminine looks and pass without question, contemplate FFS.  This is where there is a critical lack of perspective and as you say "gets into creepy Michael Jackson" territory.  I only have a theoritical perspective on why this is the case.

Some of us do have issues that will keep us from passing and that needs to be "fixed" outside of SRS and HRT in order to maintain a normal life (I fall into this category myself).  That is not my issue.  My issue is when I see a beautiful trans woman talk about dramatic FFS, it breaks my heart, because it is often for all the wrong reasons.  It is often for at least some of the reasons I stated. 

Quote from: Melissa on May 08, 2007, 04:51:20 PM

Quote from: Keira on May 08, 2007, 04:02:54 PM
or who is this super duper TS detector person

I tend to be one of those people.  I had honed my "detector" to a very high level of sensitivity in order to evaluate myself so that I could look for my flaws that really stuck out and correct them.  Most of the time my appearance does not set it off, but every so often it does.  As for reading other people, they can look very female and I will still usually read them.  Voice is probably the number 1 thing that gives people away though, rather than the face.

This is absolutely 100% correct.  Vocal intonation will give you away more so than anything else. 

Ok, TWC.  I am going to argue out of both sides of my mouth here.

On the one side, there is the simple fact that we all, TG and GG alike are subject to gender stereotypes.  So some of our expectations have been imposed on us from the outside, and those expectations involve placing the value of a woman soly in her physical beauty.  The degree to which we have internalized those stereotypical expectations, controls to some extent how much we can accept ourselves as we are and how much we compare ourselves to some impossible ideal.  Perhaps TGs have internalized those stereotypes more than GGs, but that's not to say that GGs are immune.

On the other side, it is easy for GGs to criticize TGs for being sensitive about their looks.  After all, you have never walked a mile in our shoes.  If I could think of a way to create the equivalent of a Black Like Me experience for GGs, I would.  But how can I make you understand what it is like to not pass?  The best I can say is to try to imagine not passing as your gender for a whole year, and try to imagine how it would make you feel.  If that really happened to you, then you would become conscious of your appearance.  See the thing is, you just are a girl and when people look at you, you don't have to worry that they are judging you.  We do.  Every day.  Day after day.  A life-time's worth of days.  I have no desire for BA or FFS, and I pass, period.  But I spend alot of time looking over my shoulder expecting that I don't.  Until you've had to live like that, it's best not to throw stones.

Quote from: Lisbeth on May 08, 2007, 07:27:52 PM
Ok, TWC.  I am going to argue out of both sides of my mouth here.

On the one side, there is the simple fact that we all, TG and GG alike are subject to gender stereotypes.  So some of our expectations have been imposed on us from the outside, and those expectations involve placing the value of a woman soly in her physical beauty.  The degree to which we have internalized those stereotypical expectations, controls to some extent how much we can accept ourselves as we are and how much we compare ourselves to some impossible ideal.  Perhaps TGs have internalized those stereotypes more than GGs, but that's not to say that GGs are immune.

On the other side, it is easy for GGs to criticize TGs for being sensitive about their looks.  After all, you have never walked a mile in our shoes.  If I could think of a way to create the equivalent of a Black Like Me experience for GGs, I would.  But how can I make you understand what it is like to not pass?  The best I can say is to try to imagine not passing as your gender for a whole year, and try to imagine how it would make you feel.  If that really happened to you, then you would become conscious of your appearance.  See the thing is, you just are a girl and when people look at you, you don't have to worry that they are judging you.  We do.  Every day.  Day after day.  A life-time's worth of days.

Apparently you didn't get the jest of the OP Lisbeth. If you want to call my post criticizing TGs so be it, but you are mistaken.

And just for the record, what makes you think that people do not look at me and judge me harshly? Didn't you just do that?

Quote from: togetherwecan on May 08, 2007, 07:47:06 PM
And just for the record, what makes you think that people do not look at me and judge me harshly? Didn't you just do that?

Exactly, I think that it's just part of being a woman.  You get sized up and scrutinized by everyone.  However, because we *know* that we started at a disadvantage it causes us additional worry.  Here's a thought that comes to my mind "If I was born as male, how can people possibly see me as a GG?"  I have yet to answer that question, but none the less that's how people see me.

.... taking a step back for the macro perspective.....

You know, TSism is an odd duck right?  I mean can anyone really explain it?  It is completely irrational.  Isn't it?  It seems almost comical that we can assign real logic to those things that we want and desire which lead to the actions we take.

I'm not trying to convey any real attitude or message here.... I'm just stepping back for a lookie see ;)

Cindi

Quote from: Keira on May 08, 2007, 12:27:20 PMBTW, I do think you look great Mawd. I saw the pre-photo and you look 10000 times better as a woman :-). The bossing looks very light in that picture, but its hard to judge it without having a light shining straight above (you saw the my middle picture in the sun, that's probably the least flatering picture I have; my bossing looked horrible in that one). A similar picture of you could tell if really you have a significant bossing, or its all in your head, or on your forehead... In this case ;-). I think its very light, because I saw your old male pictures in the sun and it wasn't really visible on them  (when its significant, its visible). One advantage of removing the bossing is that it opens the eye even more; you already have large beautiful innocent eyes, so I can't imagine how they could be more open :-) (my eyes are more the piercing mysterious type).

I know! it's like the HRT fairy waved her magic wand and I went from ugly boy to pretty girl just like that, I kinda feel like I'm in a dreamworld.

When I posted previously I must not have had my head screwed on, It's not that bad. I can't walk down a street without having a guy obviously show that he's attracted to me so obviously I don't look that bad, just we are our worst critics and it's easy to get wrapped up in wanting to get rid of all male assosiated features even though what I should really do is step back look in the mirror and move on with things.

Quote from: togetherwecan on May 08, 2007, 07:47:06 PM
Apparently you didn't get the jest of the OP Lisbeth. If you want to call my post criticizing TGs so be it, but you are mistaken.

And just for the record, what makes you think that people do not look at me and judge me harshly? Didn't you just do that?

Tich! Tich!  It sounds like I struck a nerve... like you did for some people.

IMNSHO, if it was a jest, then it was in extemely poor taste made at the expense of those who are most vulnerable to that kind of criticism.  I don't see how I can have "looked" at you to judge you.  I judged your words only.

Quote from: Lisbeth on May 09, 2007, 09:40:55 AM

Quote from: togetherwecan on May 08, 2007, 07:47:06 PM
Apparently you didn't get the jest of the OP Lisbeth. If you want to call my post criticizing TGs so be it, but you are mistaken.

And just for the record, what makes you think that people do not look at me and judge me harshly? Didn't you just do that?

Tich! Tich!  It sounds like I struck a nerve... like you did for some people.

IMNSHO, if it was a jest, then it was in extemely poor taste made at the expense of those who are most vulnerable to that kind of criticism.  I don't see how I can have "looked" at you to judge you.  I judged your words only.

No you reacted to your mood of the moment without taking into consideration what I actually said nor what the meaning and intent of the OP was (which was obvious to everyone but you apparently).
If you have an issue with me I suggest you take it up in PM and not in the public forums.

A typo seems to have inflamed this further. TWC meant 'gist' when she typed 'jest'. She is trying to explain that her intentions were good.

Please leave the argument be, ladies.

Dennis

Mawd,

I am critical and I now have all the vanity in the world while before I could have walked in rags with greasy hair and not cared what the hell people tought!! I took hormones in my 20's and had residual breasts from that time; I wore clothes 2 times to big too hide them, to hide myself! Even my pants were much too big, I had a 32inch waist but wore 36 inch pants that fell to my hips. Funny enough, In spite of all this neglect, everybody kept telling me I was a good looking man, and objectivelly, I suppose it was true; but I didn't care, I didn't feel it, it meant nothing to me!! An attractive women could have draped herlself all over me and I would not have known what to do about it; I was a walking zombie disconnected from my inner feelings and from my own body.

Interestingly, when I finally wore fitting female clothes, everybody was surprised by how slim and thin I was (I have a very slight frame with a substantial amount of muscle on it). Nobody had seen my real body contour since I was about 20.

I'll admit that I used to be very jealous of every single TS who I felt looked more feminine  than me!!!!  Before my surgery, I would have been jealous of you! Seeing the effect of HRT and surgery on many others gave me hope that maybe that could be me; I was moving forward regardless of HRT results, but I had a heavy heart that I would be unpassable.

Yet, just 3 months into HRT I went full time!!  Now, after 10 months of "therapy", I feel much better about myself, that eternal longing for something more has calmed down; I walk with a smile on my lips and a bounce in my step.

Quote from: Keira on May 09, 2007, 08:24:14 PM

Mawd,

I am critical and I now have all the vanity in the world while before I could have walked in rags with greasy hair and not cared what the hell people tought!! I took hormones in my 20's and had residual breasts from that time; I wore clothes 2 times to big too hide them, to hide myself! Even my pants were much too big, I had a 32inch waist but wore 36 inch pants that fell to my hips. Funny enough, In spite of all this neglect, everybody kept telling me I was a good looking man, and objectivelly, I suppose it was true; but I didn't care, I didn't feel it, it meant nothing to me!! An attractive women could have draped herlself all over me and I would not have known what to do about it; I was a walking zombie disconnected from my inner feelings and from my own body.

Interestingly, when I finally wore fitting female clothes, everybody was surprised by how slim and thin I was (I have a very slight frame with a substantial amount of muscle on it). Nobody had seen my real body contour since I was about 20.

I'll admit that I used to be very jealous of every single TS who I felt looked more feminine  than me!!!!  Before my surgery, I would have been jealous of you! Seeing the effect of HRT and surgery on many others gave me hope that maybe that could be me; I was moving forward regardless of HRT results, but I had a heavy heart that I would be unpassable.

Yet, just 3 months into HRT I went full time!!  Now, after 10 months of "therapy", I feel much better about myself, that eternal longing for something more has calmed down; I walk with a smile on my lips and a bounce in my step.

I kinda had the same thing with the clothes, though that pic you saw was from a period when I was acctually quite fat I remember one time the ftm kid at my school (yeah I know, lucky bastard got to transition at school and didn't get much attention for it) for some reason acctually felt my shape and was like "holy ->-bleeped-<- you're thin" I just wore massive baggy t shirts and jeans all the time.


Oh and I went FT six weeks into HRT :P, I went out as me one night with some friends passed flawlessly and didn't go back. I've not really had any trans related therapy though, I see someone once every four months (seen her twice) but no therapy really takes place seeing as the first time I saw her I was a reasonably happy functional girl already, I just filled her in on things and she now does my 'mones for me.

Quote from: togetherwecan on May 09, 2007, 09:53:53 AM
No you reacted to your mood of the moment without taking into consideration what I actually said nor what the meaning and intent of the OP was (which was obvious to everyone but you apparently).
If you have an issue with me I suggest you take it up in PM and not in the public forums.

My "mood or the moment?"  I don't see how that is possible, since I spent the night deciding what to say and how to say it.  It was never intended as an indictment of you.  It was a general comment of principals.  As far as I know I've never had an issue with you.  I don't understand why you have an issue with me.  I think you need to chill.

I read this thread yesterday and, quite frankly, it gave me a headache, but I was rather depressed yesterday, I have bouts of Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome, but reading the  FFS pros and con BS is tiresome. I don't think one can truly understand the benefits of FFS unless she has had the procedure.

My experience relates only to late transitioners.  I see and know a lot of TS women and almost all of the later transitioners would benefit from FFS. There is a lot of rancor because some women can't afford it and make rationalizations as to why they don't need. It's called denial which I know a lot about now being a recovering alcohol and addict. I think it is ludicrous to pontificate that "passing" doesn't matter and, to me, it's not about making  myself up like I am doing a glamour shot it's about putting on a t-shirt and jeans and no make-up and looking passable.

One thing though, one needs to be prepared for what one wishes, having to listen to comments from the men in the TL everytime I walk down the street gets old too. Sometimes, I feel like wearing a burka.

Anyway, I have always been a woman, the point of transitioning is about getting the outside to match the inside, isn't it?

Quote from: Lisbeth on May 08, 2007, 07:27:52 PM

On the one side, there is the simple fact that we all, TG and GG alike are subject to gender stereotypes.  So some of our expectations have been imposed on us from the outside, and those expectations involve placing the value of a woman soly in her physical beauty.  The degree to which we have internalized those stereotypical expectations, controls to some extent how much we can accept ourselves as we are and how much we compare ourselves to some impossible ideal.  Perhaps TGs have internalized those stereotypes more than GGs, but that's not to say that GGs are immune.

On the other side, it is easy for GGs to criticize TGs for being sensitive about their looks.  After all, you have never walked a mile in our shoes.  If I could think of a way to create the equivalent of a Black Like Me experience for GGs, I would.  But how can I make you understand what it is like to not pass?  The best I can say is to try to imagine not passing as your gender for a whole year, and try to imagine how it would make you feel.  If that really happened to you, then you would become conscious of your appearance.  See the thing is, you just are a girl and when people look at you, you don't have to worry that they are judging you.  We do.  Every day.  Day after day.  A life-time's worth of days.  I have no desire for BA or FFS, and I pass, period.  But I spend alot of time looking over my shoulder expecting that I don't.  Until you've had to live like that, it's best not to throw stones.

:( for some reason, your post made me sad.  I agree with you though.  Beautiful words.

Quote from: melissa90299 on May 10, 2007, 12:39:32 PM
I read this thread yesterday and, quite frankly, it gave me a headache, but I was rather depressed yesterday, I have bouts of Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome, but reading the  FFS pros and con BS is tiresome. I don't think one can truly understand the benefits of FFS unless she has had the procedure.

My experience relates only to late transitioners.  I see and know a lot of TS women and almost all of the later transitioners would benefit from FFS. There is a lot of rancor because some women can't afford it and make rationalizations as to why they don't need. It's called denial which I know a lot about now being a recovering alcohol and addict. I think it is ludicrous to pontificate that "passing" doesn't matter and, to me, it's not about making  myself up like I am doing a glamour shot it's about putting on a t-shirt and jeans and no make-up and looking passable.

One thing though, one needs to be prepared for what one wishes, having to listen to comments from the men in the TL everytime I walk down the street gets old too. Sometimes, I feel like wearing a burka.

Anyway, I have always been a woman, the point of transitioning is about getting the outside to match the inside, isn't it?

Actually my issue is not with those who transition later in life and FFS is pretty much needed to be passable.  My issue with those younger TS who think they need FFS especially when they go beyond just being passable (they basically look like they were always female, and are in fact hypercritical) or those who get dramatic FFS when it is never needed because   HRT did its job.  FFS is a wonderful thing for older TS because it does allow them to live a normal life.  If you would have read my posts in detail you would understand my critique of FFS.  For those who transition younger (under 30), the dramatic surgery (40 K the works, Dr. O) seems to be done mostly by those who are hypercritical of their own appearance and are going after an ideal which is unhealthy.  These individuals often exchange a natural feminine beauty for something that does look artificial.  This is where it gets into the creepy cosmetic surgery territory and there are generally deeper problems other than TS going on.  My opinion comes not out of jealousy, largely because I am transitioning before T has done any damage to my face (its wrecked havoc on my hair line though).

I have absolutely no issue though with FFS for those who transition in their later years and it is done to correct the damage of Testosterone, and it is the only way to be passable.    My issue is with those who never needed it in the first place.  Beautiful women who can pass without issue. 

We have to step well beyond the mark, to move past the imperfections that we perceive, to be better than we otherwise would have to be. We have to be super feminine, we have to find the absolute best clothes that de emphasize our odd sizes.  We are afraid to go out into public unless we are confident that we totally pass.

We dote on every little imperfection. We worry what everyone else will think. We can't stand rejection.

We take it all to the extreme and want every possible procedure or gimmick that will help us better fit in.  We pay the scammers. We read too many online posts. We waste too much money on therapists... just so we can live the "normal" life we perceive.

Unfortunately, what we perceive is not natural. It is a combination of our fears, self doubt, and real rejection.  And for this reason, we over compensate.  We worry too much. We go too far.

TWC, I learned a long time ago to finally be me.  I am a tomboy.  It's the perfect mask!  No one ever expects a tomboy to be a ->-bleeped-<-. I enjoy being comfortable.  I enjoy doing things that are by many considered activities that most men never do, let alone women.  I am not terribly feminine but definitely not masculine.  I managed to pass on many of the surgeries available to us.  I still wish I'd gone for the trache shave though....  Sheesh... thanks to Jerry Springer... everybody now knows about that tell.

Quote from: togetherwecan on May 07, 2007, 11:34:23 AM
........ I am not sure how it will be received.

How will it be received? 

Thank You!


Bev

Quote from: Amy T. on May 10, 2007, 07:33:11 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on May 10, 2007, 12:39:32 PM
I read this thread yesterday and, quite frankly, it gave me a headache, but I was rather depressed yesterday, I have bouts of Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome, but reading the  FFS pros and con BS is tiresome. I don't think one can truly understand the benefits of FFS unless she has had the procedure.

My experience relates only to late transitioners.  I see and know a lot of TS women and almost all of the later transitioners would benefit from FFS. There is a lot of rancor because some women can't afford it and make rationalizations as to why they don't need. It's called denial which I know a lot about now being a recovering alcohol and addict. I think it is ludicrous to pontificate that "passing" doesn't matter and, to me, it's not about making  myself up like I am doing a glamour shot it's about putting on a t-shirt and jeans and no make-up and looking passable.

One thing though, one needs to be prepared for what one wishes, having to listen to comments from the men in the TL everytime I walk down the street gets old too. Sometimes, I feel like wearing a burka.

Anyway, I have always been a woman, the point of transitioning is about getting the outside to match the inside, isn't it?

Actually my issue is not with those who transition later in life and FFS is pretty much needed to be passable.  My issue with those younger TS who think they need FFS especially when they go beyond just being passable (they basically look like they were always female, and are in fact hypercritical) or those who get dramatic FFS when it is never needed because   HRT did its job.  FFS is a wonderful thing for older TS because it does allow them to live a normal life.  If you would have read my posts in detail you would understand my critique of FFS.  For those who transition younger (under 30), the dramatic surgery (40 K the works, Dr. O) seems to be done mostly by those who are hypercritical of their own appearance and are going after an ideal which is unhealthy.  These individuals often exchange a natural feminine beauty for something that does look artificial.  This is where it gets into the creepy cosmetic surgery territory and there are generally deeper problems other than TS going on.  My opinion comes not out of jealousy, largely because I am transitioning before T has done any damage to my face (its wrecked havoc on my hair line though).

I have absolutely no issue though with FFS for those who transition in their later years and it is done to correct the damage of Testosterone, and it is the only way to be passable.    My issue is with those who never needed it in the first place.  Beautiful women who can pass without issue. 

Doesn't T do most of it's damage by the age 25, bone structure wise? I have seen a lot of DR O's patients and haven't seen a really bad one yet. (unnatural) And the only reason I see so many is that I used to live two minutes from his office and my chiropractor has an office next door (who I was seeing twice a week for a long time)

I wonder how you have seen so many of many of Dr O's patients, enough to conclude that these woman don't need the surgery. (BTW I have also seen a lot of before's and haven't seen one who didn't need it)

Again, there is awful alot of denial on behalf of those on the anti-FFS side. I would have no idea whether or not that would apply to you as I haven't seen your face. Anyway, as a recovering alcoholic and addict, I am learning not to "take other people's inventory" which is what you are doing and what I am doing by pointing it out to you. (Still learning)

I think that a lot of times, the antagonists are ones who really want it but don't have the wherewithall to get it ;)

I see this in my business all the time.  I offer some fairly advanced equipment.  I'll hear people say that "I don't need that." from a "purist" attitude.  In reality, if they could afford it, they'd have it.

In this, our context, we do whatever we can to improve ourselves.  I don't think that anyone condems anyone else for what they want. But the quesiton to each individual remains... do you need it?

If I could afford the trache shave... I'd go have it done that's for sure.  As far as FFS, I've lived my life for so long as I am, I'd hate to make significant changes.  I think that people would notice... and then start asking questions.  You see.. it isn't that I wouldn't want it.  I'm afraid.  Pure and simple.

Isn't that what pushes our lives around in this "secret" we live?  We live in fear.

Cindi

Quote from: melissa90299 on May 11, 2007, 03:51:14 PM
Doesn't T do most of it's damage by the age 25, bone structure wise?

You decide.  I posted my latest pic as of last night on my profile.  I didn't start HRT until age 28, I've been in it for a little over 15 months and I've never had any kind of facial surgery.  Does my bone structure look completely masculine?

Quote from: Melissa on May 11, 2007, 04:40:00 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on May 11, 2007, 03:51:14 PM
Doesn't T do most of it's damage by the age 25, bone structure wise?

You decide.  I posted my latest pic as of last night on my profile.  I didn't start HRT until age 28, I've been in it for a little over 15 months and I've never had any kind of facial surgery.  Does my bone structure look completely masculine?

No Melissa, you do not.  The difference is your confidence level within yourself. I believe that.
And I think yer cuter the helly!

Quote from: togetherwecan on May 11, 2007, 05:04:29 PM
And I think yer cuter the helly!

Awww, thank you. :)

You don't need FFS honey. You are soooooooo cute as you are.
Rashelle

Quote from: Rashelle on May 11, 2007, 07:22:03 PM
You don't need FFS honey. You are soooooooo cute as you are.
Rashelle

I agree Rashelle.  What is that girl thinking about? :)

tink :icon_chick:

Okay, I'll admitt....last year, I did have blapharoplasty on my upper eyelids, but I needed resection of the levator muscles badly, so badly, that my insurance paid for the resection, unfortunately, not the blepharoplasty. 
I used to look like Garfield!
Now, I look like a thin-haired dumpy oldish woman.

Still Happy, Bev

Quote from: Tink on May 11, 2007, 07:36:31 PM

Quote from: Rashelle on May 11, 2007, 07:22:03 PM
You don't need FFS honey. You are soooooooo cute as you are.
Rashelle

I agree Rashelle.  What is that girl thinking about? :)

tink :icon_chick:

I agree, too.  What would make Melissa confident and happy?  FFS doesn't seem to be necessary in her case.  I've seen her feminize a lot lately.

Kristi

Quote from: Kristi on May 11, 2007, 11:02:54 PM

Quote from: Tink on May 11, 2007, 07:36:31 PM

Quote from: Rashelle on May 11, 2007, 07:22:03 PM
You don't need FFS honey. You are soooooooo cute as you are.
Rashelle

I agree Rashelle.  What is that girl thinking about? :)

tink :icon_chick:

I agree, too.  What would make Melissa confident and happy?  FFS doesn't seem to be necessary in her case.  I've seen her feminize a lot lately.

Kristi

That is what I told Melissa a few weeks back.  She looks cute.  I don't know why she is so worried. 

Quote from: Melissa on May 11, 2007, 04:40:00 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on May 11, 2007, 03:51:14 PM
Doesn't T do most of it's damage by the age 25, bone structure wise?

You decide.  I posted my latest pic as of last night on my profile.  I didn't start HRT until age 28, I've been in it for a little over 15 months and I've never had any kind of facial surgery.  Does my bone structure look completely masculine?

It's tough for people to give friends objective advice, especially on a touchy subject like appearance. Everyone told me that I didn't need FFS but the way people react to me now is like night and day. (and the skin around my jaw is still settling in, it takes longer when one is a senior citizen like me!:)

Melissa, you are very cute, no doubt about it. But, honestly, you would benefit from it. Do you "need" it? Probably not (I would have to see clinical poses) but I can imagine you with higher brows and a narrow jaw. You would be beyond fabulous.

Quote from: Cindi Jones on May 11, 2007, 04:06:54 PM
I think that a lot of times, the antagonists are ones who really want it but don't have the wherewithall to get it ;)

I see this in my business all the time.  I offer some fairly advanced equipment.  I'll hear people say that "I don't need that." from a "purist" attitude.  In reality, if they could afford it, they'd have it.

In this, our context, we do whatever we can to improve ourselves.  I don't think that anyone condems anyone else for what they want. But the quesiton to each individual remains... do you need it?

If I could afford the trache shave... I'd go have it done that's for sure.  As far as FFS, I've lived my life for so long as I am, I'd hate to make significant changes.  I think that people would notice... and then start asking questions.  You see.. it isn't that I wouldn't want it.  I'm afraid.  Pure and simple.

Isn't that what pushes our lives around in this "secret" we live?  We live in fear.

Cindi

You would be surprised how people react.

You look so different, did you "lose weight" or whatever. Trust me, no one (except another trans) would guess you had "FFS" No one even knows what it is.

Quote from: Lisbeth on May 08, 2007, 07:27:52 PM

The degree to which we have internalized those stereotypical expectations, controls to some extent how much we can accept ourselves as we are and how much we compare ourselves to some impossible ideal.  Perhaps TGs have internalized those stereotypes more than GGs, but that's not to say that GGs are immune.

On the other side, it is easy for GGs to criticize TGs for being sensitive about their looks.  After all, you have never walked a mile in our shoes.  If I could think of a way to create the equivalent of a Black Like Me experience for GGs, I would.  But how can I make you understand what it is like to not pass?  The best I can say is to try to imagine not passing as your gender for a whole year, and try to imagine how it would make you feel.  If that really happened to you, then you would become conscious of your appearance.  See the thing is, you just are a girl and when people look at you, you don't have to worry that they are judging you.  We do.  Every day.  Day after day.  A life-time's worth of days.  I have no desire for BA or FFS, and I pass, period.  But I spend alot of time looking over my shoulder expecting that I don't.  Until you've had to live like that, it's best not to throw stones.

terrific post lisbeth.  i also get livid when people, who have no clue of what we go through, have the audacity to criticize us.

QuoteYou look so different, did you "lose weight" or whatever. Trust me, no one (except another trans) would guess you had "FFS" No one even knows what it is.

Nope.  The current black and white avatar is of Terry Farrell. She played in Deep Space 9 and a couple of B movies.  She's a babe!  I like to change my avatar frequently.  Usually the black and whites are other people. The color shots are of me.

Cindi

I hate my nose , its not narrow and i dont like the shape of my jaw and i feel like i have a really big head and face. It kills me and makes me very insecure about looking up to people. I keep my head down when i dont feel confident which is alot of the times heh.