Susan's Place Transgender Resources

In Christmas Speech, Pope Rants About Gender
BY Lucas Grindley
December 21 2012 4:02 PM ET

http://www.advocate.com/politics/religion/2012/12/21/christmas-speech-pope-rails-against-gender-roles (http://www.advocate.com/politics/religion/2012/12/21/christmas-speech-pope-rails-against-gender-roles)

The pope used his Christmas message today to warn of an "attack" on the "true structure of the family," which he defined as a father, mother and child. Debate all over the world isn't only about marriage equality, he seemed to say, it's about what it means to be human.

In the address, Pope Benedict rails about contemporary views of gender and says anyone who defends the old way of thinking is actually defending God himself. The message grows more alarming with each sentence.

[...]

Then the Pope goes on at some length to insist that God created a "duality" in gender that is "an essential aspect of what being human is all about." He said people are trying to "decide" their genders, calling transgender people a "manipulation of nature."

Well, Pope, guess who's not even mentioned in the bible...   ::)

Much of Christian theology and philosophy are not in the Bible.

I know. Half the time, people just make this stuff up, which is why I never saw religious bigots as people with credibility.  :P

Not much one can really say about that without going over ground which has been trodden many, many times.

It smacks of desperation just a little though. And someone who perhaps knows their antiquated ideology is on the wane yet is stubbornly resistant to change. The idea of coming to the Almighty's defense by insisting on living in the dark ages is almost comical.

"I'll defend you, God! By... um... living in a cave and thinking lightning is a sign of your fury, O Lord! Yeah, curse the evil of electricity generating power stations, for they are a manipulation of nature! Even though they allow your supposedly chosen representative to wax lyrical about the wrongness of manipulating nature! It's still wrong... somehow! And we need more exclamation points!!!"

I can just imagine God facepalming so hard at this right now.

Much of this could be avoided if the Pope just started his rants with the words "Okay, folks, here's what I personally think..." which is all it mostly amounts to.

The fundamental flaw in a lot of what he says, as far as I can see, and quite aside from the entire Adam and Eve premise itself, is the assumption that when something is created, it has to remain the way it was when it was created and cannot grow and change, learn and become more than it was when it was created. And so shall it ever be etc.

Humans give birth to children, who grow and learn, and adapt, and experience. The human race throughout history is like a child growing up, learning about ourselves, the world and how to exist within it to its, and our full potential. The pope seems to want everyone to stay as children, being told how the world is by a father figure who "knows everything and has to be taken at his word". He assumes that, or likes to believe that God doesn't want his children to grow up and think for themselves. Probably because then there'd be no need for a Pope, who knows.

I fail to see how God would become any less significant to anyone who utilises their self-determination to become their true selves. I mean the evidence of that is clear from our religious members here, who have no less love for, faith in, and belief in God. And nor should they. Being able to do something for yourself doesn't suddenly invalidate the idea of a God. And I suspect in some cases that faith and belief only gets stronger as those folks find the strength to do what needs to be done in spite of overwhelming prejudice and seemingly insurmountable odds. So quite why God needs defending is beyond me. I suspect it's more likely that the Pope's particular brand of doctrine and personal values are what are more in need of defense.

This comes from the mouth of Nazi man who maned a triple A gun against American bombers, just to later on claim he was forced to do it. The true Catholics in Nazi Germany did oppose the Nazis, they did not were forced to do any evil things, they did die before giving up. But not the PopenFuhrer

He distills evilness not only in his looks but in his words. In the most awful tradition of the Catholic church he willfully chooses to ignore advances on sciences.

Hopefully he will die soon

I wonder how he he feels about interracial marriage.

He's probably not a fan. Religious, conservative, and very old aren't qualities that normally don't come along with hatred of all sorts.  :-\

DAWWWWWWWW he looks like a panda :D *pets the pope and gives him some bamboo*

The Pope could actually be intersex and not even know it!

Quote from: Snowpaw on December 21, 2012, 09:33:46 PM
DAWWWWWWWW he looks like a panda :D *pets the pope and gives him some bamboo*

*Snowpaw gets arrested by Pope's bodyguards*  :-\

(Correct me if I used this slang wrong) --> The Pope rolls deep, yo!  :laugh:

Quote from: DianaP on December 21, 2012, 09:51:06 PM
*Snowpaw gets arrested by Pope's bodyguards*  :laugh:

(Correct me if I used this slang wrong) --> The Pope rolls deep, yo!

I can't help it, he just looks so non creepy in that pic.

Ohmahgawd he does make me think of pandas when I look at him. >.<

Quote from: peky on December 21, 2012, 09:23:14 PM
This comes from the mouth of Nazi man who maned a triple A gun against American bombers, just to later on claim he was forced to do it. The true Catholics in Nazi Germany did oppose the Nazis, they did not were forced to do any evil things, they did die before giving up. But not the PopenFuhrer

He distills evilness not only in his looks but in his words. In the most awful tradition of the Catholic church he willfully chooses to ignore advances on sciences.

Hopefully he will die soon

couldn't agree more!

also lets not forget the pope wears a dress at all the masses ;o

i went to catholic schools from preschool thru highschool, they say the darnedest things.

what the pope is saying sounds alot like the pre-ww2 nazi conformist propaganda

Nah even the emperor would be pro gay rights. The jedi's were punks who would stand by and say "it's not our war" if the nazis were there. Sith4life.

Oh yeah I said it too, Sith> jedi scum.

Quote from: Snowpaw on December 21, 2012, 10:21:02 PM
Nah even the emperor would be pro gay rights. The jedi's were punks who would stand by and say "it's not our war" if the nazis were there. Sith4life.

daaarksiiiide..... i love how you share my appreciation of the sith's. it seems all my friends like the jedi's and the light side and i'm the only one out of the bunch who thinks darth vader is the coolest. well, i guess he eventually turned to the light side in the end.... hmmm darth vader was trans! trans-force.

I love how everyone basically disregarded the Pope's hate!  ;D

Quote from: DianaP on December 21, 2012, 10:28:17 PM
I love how everyone basically disregarded the Pope's hate!  ;D

Eh, It's not exactly surprising, and I could care less what he thinks.

I wonder how many people in the world who were pro-LGBT rights actually became anti-LGBT rights just because the Pope said so. :o

I think it sad that a person who 'heads' a large number of people who believe what he says takes such a non-christian look at life. He has not been so outspoken on the sexual abuse committed by members of the church.

I haven't read the bible for at least 50 years but for those who have does it actually state what a family is?

Here you go Cindy.

Betty Bowers Explains Traditional Marriage to Everyone Else (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFkeKKszXTw#)


And for the life of me I sure don't understand why we treat people who have hallucinations and visions about Bronze Age stories and Medieval Institutions as something other than what they are.  Very, very ill.  In the head.  Religion is the next great mental illness.

Quote from: tekla on December 22, 2012, 01:01:59 AM

And for the life of me I sure don't understand why we treat people who have hallucinations and visions about Bronze Age stories and Medieval Institutions as something other than what they are.  Very, very ill.  In the head.  Religion is the next great mental illness.

LOL... My family represents that remark  :laugh:

QuoteVery, very ill.  In the head

I am not ill in the head, but the Pope is.

Jesus said it well about who his family is. Consider that 2nd law in the great commandment is to love your neighbor as you love yourself.

QuoteLuke 8:20-22 And he was told, "Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, wanting to see you." But he said to them, "My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word of God and do it."

QuoteMatthew 12:47-49 Someone told him, "Look, your mother and your brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you." But to the one who had told him this, Jesus replied, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" And pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers!

What I get from this that it doesn't matter about who is in your family, whether they be blood or not, nor what gender they are. It only matters that we follow the great commandment. The Pope has seem to forgotten that.

The Pope - he's cool, he's the man, he's the Pope, from the Vat-ta-can - thinks/believes that God speaks personally to him.  So do you.  What's the difference?

OK lets not get into personal religion stuff.

How exactly do you talk about religion without it being personal?  Isn't the entire point of religion all about the personal?



I mean I'm all down with all discussions dealing with religion being strictly theoretical, that's exactly how I consider it, but I bet that's not what your saying.

Quote from: tekla on December 22, 2012, 02:17:20 AM
The Pope - he's cool, he's the man, he's the Pope, from the Vat-ta-can - thinks/believes that God speaks personally to him.  So do you.  What's the difference?

QuoteThe difference? I'm posting here supporting folks who are marginalized like myself. The Pope doesn't look like he will be doing that anytime soon.

Tekla

I agree that religion is a very personal thing. I'm also very conscious that some members at Susan's have religious belief that is integral to them.

I respect that as I'm sure we all do.

I like this thread but if it becomes a slang match I will step in.

I'm happy for opinions on the pope's speech I see no reason for it to become a denigration of belief and religious opinion.

I felt sick when I read his comments - I can scarcely believe that a man of his post would openly make such comments.

There are some really great catholic priests and nuns who do a lot of good work for the community.

But it's people like him that make persons like myself impossible to live and exist as a Catholic.

It's because of views like these that even though I am still technically a Catholic - I am no longer one. Which leaves me without a religion although I still consider myself to be a Christian.

As a Christian - I find that the church's views on homosexuality and transgender  as wrong and unacceptable.
How can a religion founded on the principal that God is loving, kind and forgiving and created us in his own image also say that just because I am bisexual and transgender that I am doomed to go to hell?

I just don't get it. What have anyone of us done wrong - except wanting to be ourselves?

Let us think before we post.

Read your post and would would it break ToS would anyone be offended for no reason? If so don't post it.

Quote from: tekla on December 22, 2012, 02:17:20 AM
The Pope - he's cool, he's the man, he's the Pope, from the Vat-ta-can - thinks/believes that God speaks personally to him.  So do you.  What's the difference?

The biggest difference is that the Pope speaks as the voice of God and what  the pope says is as if God Himself were speaking. What other religious leader has a diplomatic corp? Name another one that countries send their leaders to as much as the pope. Name another that the press takes the amount of time to listen and print,televise,and youtube speeches and sayings from to the degree that the pope is. Name one other that is taken as seriously as the Pope. Name another that wields as much influence.
I don't about you but I think that might just be a really big difference.

Lets be careful.

Quote from: peky on December 21, 2012, 09:23:14 PM
This comes from the mouth of Nazi man who maned a triple A gun against American bombers, just to later on claim he was forced to do it. The true Catholics in Nazi Germany did oppose the Nazis, they did not were forced to do any evil things, they did die before giving up. But not the PopenFuhrer

He distills evilness not only in his looks but in his words. In the most awful tradition of the Catholic church he willfully chooses to ignore advances on sciences.

Hopefully he will die soon

Joseph Ratzinger was a Bavarian, born in 1927.  At the age of 14, he was enlisted, by law, into the Hitler Youth.  Soon thereafter he entered the Seminary, but in 1943 was drafted into an anti-aircraft unit (age16).  The National Socialist government and war machine were struggling with manpower shortages, and forced children into the ranks.  There was no such thing as a "conscientious objector" in Nazi Germany.  If you were fit, you fought.

Which advances in science to you believe he, and/or the Catholic Church, ignore?

Sorry,


*Being silly*

Getting back to the original post, I would say simply that the pope is lacking in Christmas spirit.

He doesn't like me,I don't care

I think that we must really be making significant progress toward acceptance by society to be perceived as such a threat... a few years ago we were nowhere to be found in the Pope's Christmas messages.

Z

 It is always upsetting to see the triumph of hatred over love.

My opinion about the Pope and his personal beliefs is probably best left unsaid, beyond that.

Quote from: Jamie D on December 22, 2012, 04:54:19 AM
Joseph Ratzinger was a Bavarian, born in 1927.  At the age of 14, he was enlisted, by law, into the Hitler Youth.  Soon thereafter he entered the Seminary, but in 1943 was drafted into an anti-aircraft unit (age16).  The National Socialist government and war machine were struggling with manpower shortages, and forced children into the ranks.  There was no such thing as a "conscientious objector" in Nazi Germany.  If you were fit, you fought.

Which advances in science to you believe he, and/or the Catholic Church, ignore?

The advances that indicates the gender identity is biologically determined and it is not a "life style"

The advances that indicates that sexual orientation is biologically determined and it is not a "life style"

These ^^ facts are recognized by most of the world and have resulted in the promulgation of laws that protect us LGBT people

But these facts of sciences are willfully ignored by religious extremists such as the pope, Romney, and other religious terrorist 

Quote from: peky on December 22, 2012, 09:07:56 AM
The advances that indicates the gender identity is biologically determined and it is not a "life style"

The advances that indicates that sexual orientation is biologically determined and it is not a "life style"

These ^^ facts are recognized by most of the world and have resulted in the promulgation of laws that protect us LGBT people

But these facts of sciences are willfully ignored by religious extremists such as the pope, Romney, and other religious terrorist

To be fair, these facts may not be wilfully ignored so much as they may be seen as irrelevant. One's sexual orientation may be set in stone, but this fact does not force a person to have sex with who they're attracted to. It 'merely' controls how enjoyable the activity is. Therefore, the sin is limited to having gay sex, as opposed to so little as simply being gay. A person who regularly has gay sex is then, of course,  participating in what is very much a "gay" lifestyle choice.

Beyond that is debatable. and this isn't really the right thread for debates. I don't agree with the Pope's position on this, but I can understand and respect where he is coming from.

This might be good for me actually. My father's family is very Catholic and is the side I'll have a major problem with when I come out. I've dreamt for years of telling him off. This may actually spark the conversation at Christmas dinner that sets me off. And it IS possible at Christmas dinner. Another one set them off on an Easter dinner over gays.

I'm also very conscious that some members at Susan's have religious belief that is integral to them.

How 'bout the rights of those who believe in reason, rational thought, and the unfolding enlightenment of science and who work to advance that over superstition and metaphysics?  How come we're always forced to politely suck it and basically fake it along with them while people talk about their imaginary friend?  Why are those who have been profoundly and deeply hurt by religion always being told they have to respect those who do nothing but apologize for it. 

Why is a guy who is dressed like Charlemagne and telling everyone that God has made him the Holy Roman Emperor locked up, but the other guy dressed strait out of Medieval Europe taken seriously when he's basically saying the same thing in similar vestments? 

So how come they get post, after post, after post, to preach it, and the rest of us just have to sit, listen, and nod and basically shove it when it comes to our talking about what it is that we think we know?

You are talking about people who think that an imaginary sky god watches over everything in the universe, created it all, and controls it all - despite absolutely no proof of that being true.  Fewer and fewer people believe that.  Heck, more people tour the great churches of Europe than attend them.

What would Cindy - the medical professional - do if someone walked in and started telling you that his 'friend', who speaks to him, who listens to him, who created and controls every aspect of the entire universe, that his friend - that no one can see - his friend Ed, is your Lord and Savior and you should bow down low before Ed and try to please Ed least you be put into a lake of fire for all eternity for spanking it to a Victoria's Secret catalog.  How's it any different if you change Ed's name to the name of the guy across the street from me who makes my Chimichanga (divine though Jesus's Chimies are)?

If Cindy were asked all the things that can help people with TG were would 'trust god' come in the list of medicine, psychiatry/psychology, surgery and chemistry?  Would you ever recommend such a thing to anyone as a medical professional?

Okay, while I don't agree that all religious people are loonies, I must agree that religion is unfairly favored in today's society in the US, despite the 1st amendment promising no law to be created that would be detrimental or favoring to any religion.

However, as a nonbeliever, you've got to be used to that by now.  :-\

I didn't create the Universe Tekla, but I can tell you for certain i have been in the presence of evil spirits, demons or negative energy, whatever you'd like to call it. If you had been through the things I had been as a child and as a teenager you'd be looking for some protection againts evil.

But just because I can feel good and evil, and know we are stuck in the middle of a battlefield, does not mean I am irrational. I can accept science and reason all at the same time. Please don't put me or other faith based people in a box. I am in 100% agreement with you that the pope is wrong about his ideas about gender.

But there are people who don't have any kind of religion whatsoever, and they can be just as ignorant and prejudice against anyone.

TBH as someone who has taken **** from both sides - atheists as well as religious people at some point in her life.

I could not care less as long as I am accepted for who I am.

As for the Pope's opinion and comments - I don't agree with it.

Ok, please don't take the following as a bash; I am just sincerely curious, so if any religious individuals read this, please try to respond to it as respectfully as possible.

Let's say some adult guy, let's call him Steve, goes to the polar bear exhibit at the zoo and starts preaching about how the polar bear exhibit is a magically disguised monitoring base for Santa to watch people and check to see who's naughty or nice. He claims that he is somehow immune to the spell and is thus the only person that can see through it. Steve then says that the polar bear exhibit must be destroyed for the sake of allowing people their privacy from Santa's peeping eyes.

The next thing you know, two guys dressed in white, one with a straightjacket and the other with a supply of neurodepressants come by and say, "Steve, we're going to take you to a nice, soft place now, okay?"

In this scenario, Steve is using some religion-esque claim to justify destruction of a polar bear exhibit. The Pope is using religion to justify hate, and past popes used it to justify WAR.

As for my question: what's the difference between any religious individual and Steve? Of course, other than:
-Religious people being more numerous.
-Religion being so engrained in society that no one dare challenge it for the sake of political correctness.

I'd appreciate an answer. Once again, I don't want to bash any religion. I'm just playing devil's advocate. (No pun intended)
_________________________________________________________________________

I don't think either side is better than the other. In fact, it's irrelevant. You say God created the universe, so who created God? The point is that no matter what you believe in, you must acknowledge that, at some point, something must have come from nothing at least once at some point in time.

Therefore, since we all share the common background of nothingness, can't we all just hold hands and get along?  :)

Quote from: tekla on December 22, 2012, 11:47:20 AM
If Cindy were asked all the things that can help people with TG were would 'trust god' come in the list of medicine, psychiatry/psychology, surgery and chemistry?

Very good point. Next time someone accuses me of being mentally ill, I may just have to counter with this.

Unlike Steve, I would never condone destroying anything or anyone because of faith. If you met me in real life you would know you could feel safe around me, I would offer my help, my love, my encouragement and my support and even give my life for you if you were in danger. That's just how I roll.

But your right people have done some stupid things in the name of God, but again so have people who just do it simply to do it.

Thank you, Shawn. Now, if you don't mind, what about Steve's claim to see magic spells and Santa vs. a religious individual's "visions" of God and angels? How are those different?

Once again, I'm just a curious individual. Don't take me trying to understand the other side's perspective as being hateful. It's what makes me a good debater.  ;)

The only demon/satan/evil is the ignorant creature bearing 46 chromosomes.

"Dogs and cats living together...mass hysteria!"

Yawn.

@shawna I wouldn't even say the devil is evil. he is the one according the bible who gave us knowledge equal to gods. Not only that he basically showed us that when you make a bet to ruin someone's life, god will abide and ruin that guys life. Poor lot. Poor lucifer.

Personally to each their own, however I see the god as being evil and satan as being a misunderstood entity.

Quote@shawna I wouldn't even say the devil is evil. he is the one according the bible who gave us knowledge equal to gods. Not only that he basically showed us that when you make a bet to ruin someone's life, god will abide and ruin that guys life. Poor lot. Poor lucifer.

Personally to each their own, however I see the god as being evil and satan as being a misunderstood entity.

Flawless Logic,

except everyone can pretty much agree on whats universally evil

Murder
Rape
Violence
Suffering

Satan does not care about you at all, he is selfish and wants you be as miserable as he is. Satan decided he was better than God who created him. He was a little kid throwing a tantrum at his parents or even worse attacking his Father. He wants to sift you as wheat. Oh My goodness.

Quote from: peky on December 22, 2012, 01:08:05 PM
The only demon/satan/evil is the ignorant creature bearing 46 chromosomes.

Eh Humans can have up to  49, XXXXX syndrome

Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on December 22, 2012, 02:35:11 PM
Flawless Logic,

except everyone can pretty much agree on whats universally evil

Murder
Rape
Violence
Suffering

Satan does not care about you at all, he is selfish and wants you be as miserable as he is. Satan decided he was better than God who created him. He was a little kid throwing a tantrum at his parents or even worse attacking his Father. He wants to sift you as wheat. Oh My goodness.

The history is written by the winners, or in this case worshipers of the winner. What I read in the bible lead me to believe that god did all those things.

He murders entire towns.
He allows rape to go on and on.
He is violence incarnate.
He certainly doesn't care if we suffer.

God does not care. He is utterly selfish and wants nothing more than blind worship. Satan questioned this and was sent below. Yes he hates us, if only because we still give blind worship to the very being whom he questioned. personally I worship neither, both are demigods at best. Nothing all powerful. Just little children with a bit of power, nothing more.

I'm sorry but it really hurts me when you say God is evil, you have the right to your opinions, but it still hurts me.

No need for the hostility. God would frown upon that. Wouldn't he?

The topic is about the speech made by the Pope, please stick to that. Also please refrain from posting anything that may be construed as a personal attack. Thank you, hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Snowpaw on December 22, 2012, 02:51:26 PM
No need for the hostility. God would frown upon that. Wouldn't he?

I am not being hostile , I already said I don't agree with the Pope at all, and yet I believe in God, I know hes full of bull when it comes to gender.

I apologize if it appeared that way.

I took my questions to another thread.

Kia Ora and "Reason's Greetings !"

::) I often wonder...Is the Pope the Devil's puppet, a double agent so to speak ? After all, the Vatican believes the Devil exists...

Food for 'religious' thought...

Metta Zenda :)

"religious thought" tends to be far more speculation than actual thought...

Quote from: tekla on December 22, 2012, 04:44:55 PM
"religious thought" tends to be far more speculation than actual thought...

Kia Ora Tekla,

::) So true  ;D

Metta Zenda :)

PS I guess when it comes to the Pope, he always speaks without 'thinking'....

::) And so I said to the Pope"If you stop preaching to society-I promise not to 'think' in your church!"

Quote from: Zenda on December 22, 2012, 03:54:55 PM
Kia Ora and "Reason's Greetings !"

::) I often wonder...Is the Pope the Devil's puppet, a double agent so to speak ? After all, the Vatican believes the Devil exists...

Food for 'religious' thought...

Metta Zenda :)

I guess the "Pope" resurrected you. In any case Mele Kalikimaka to you!!

Quote from: Zenda on December 22, 2012, 04:50:23 PM
Kia Ora Tekla,

::) So true  ;D

Metta Zenda :)

once you achieved that, then what????

Quote from: peky on December 22, 2012, 04:51:13 PM
I guess the "Pope" resurrected you. In any case Mele Kalikimaka to you!!

Kia Ora Peky,

Perhaps I'm the Devil's sporn...
And  "Mele Kalikimaka" [Merry Xmas in Maori ] back at ya...

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Zenda on December 22, 2012, 03:54:55 PM
Kia Ora and "Reason's Greetings !"

::) I often wonder...Is the Pope the Devil's puppet, a double agent so to speak ? After all, the Vatican believes the Devil exists...

Food for 'religious' thought...

Metta Zenda :)

I know you person! ^.^ You haven't been here in awhile, lolz

Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on December 22, 2012, 05:31:03 PM
I know you person! ^.^ You haven't been here in awhile, lolz

Kia Ora R toT,

::) I've been locked up in the real world, just out on parole ;) ... I hope life is treating you well :)

Metta Zenda :)

  Benedict XVI is undoing all of the positive things that John Paul II did to open pathways to other people other than Catholics.  This from a sect that once allowed castration of boys so they can grow up like a bovine steer and sing contralto! 

  Joelene

 I'm interested in how the Catholic church responds to this. How will church leaders in the USA, UK, Eurpope, Australia etc respond when the know that the people in these countries have progressed in concept and ideas. Spain, a Catholic country is one of the few places that conducts Gay Marriage. There is no way that Australians will accept this crap, we already have legal and open laws for Gay and TG people. \\Next year we will be mounting test cases for same sex marriage and will be taking the law on and we will get it changed.


Gender change may not be common but it is very well recognised in the (Australian) establishment. Passports, Driving licences etc etc are all changed to our gender.

Without wishing to be rude, I reckon the old guy just woke up and had a ramble. Probably back to sleep by now.

Most of us have to at some time or other in our transitions get a psychiatric clearance that we do not suffer from ongoing mental disorders that may affect our decisions.

Wonder it the pope does?

Quote from: peky on December 22, 2012, 09:07:56 AM
The advances that indicates the gender identity is biologically determined and it is not a "life style"

The advances that indicates that sexual orientation is biologically determined and it is not a "life style"

These ^^ facts are recognized by most of the world and have resulted in the promulgation of laws that protect us LGBT people

But these facts of sciences are willfully ignored by religious extremists such as the pope, Romney, and other religious terrorist

I think Freud had it right when he said we were all innately bisexual, but that is my own bias.  But if Freud was correct, then behavior is a matter of choice or preference.

What you believe to be "facts" are still equivocal.

I am surprised, however, that you would wish death on anyone.

Quote from: DianaP on December 22, 2012, 12:19:34 PM
Okay, while I don't agree that all religious people are loonies, I must agree that religion is unfairly favored in today's society in the US, despite the 1st amendment promising no law to be created that would be detrimental or favoring to any religion.

However, as a nonbeliever, you've got to be used to that by now.  :-\

The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment was written to that the Federal Government would not try to create a state religion, such as the Anglican Church in the UK.

In fact, individual states were free to support religion, and some states did so up until the 1830's.

Quote from: Jamie D on December 23, 2012, 02:57:43 AM
The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment was written to that the Federal Government would not try to create a state religion, such as the Anglican Church in the UK.

In fact, individual states were free to support religion, and some states did so up until the 1830's.

And the 1st amendment, a long with many others, were applied to the state government by the 14th amendment's due process clause (selective incorporation). Thus, states can't favor religion, either.

Quote from: Jamie D on December 23, 2012, 02:52:14 AM
I think Freud had it right when he said we were all innately bisexual, but that is my own bias.  But if Freud was correct, then behavior is a matter of choice or preference.

What you believe to be "facts" are still equivocal.

It is a well established fact that sexual orientation has no bearing on gender identity, so you remark about Freud is irrelevant. Furthermore, the work of Freud =although pioneer at that time- has been prove medically wrong. It no longer has any usefulness in modern psychiatry

There over 100 peer-reviewed publications that underscore the biological basis of gender identity dysphoria.

Yet, I suppose for those who need by demands of their faith or political views the biological basis of GID are as equivocal as:

the connection between cigarette smoking a small cell carcinoma of the lungs. Plenty of Reynold's scientists said so, right?

QuoteI am surprised, however, that you would wish death on anyone.

SIX YEAR OF DAILY BEATINGS -BETWEEN THE AGES OF SIX AND TWELVE- SOME WITH SEXUAL OVERTONES WOULD DULL  EVEN TO THE MOST GENTLE OF SOULS, MY CARING FRIEND

Quote from: peky on December 23, 2012, 08:11:41 AM

SIX YEAR OF DAILY BEATINGS -BETWEEN THE AGES OF SIX AND TWELVE- SOME WITH SEXUAL OVERTONES WOULD DULL  EVEN TO THE MOST GENTLE OF SOULS, MY CARING FRIEND

I am sorry to hear he beat you.

Quote from: Jamie D on December 23, 2012, 11:56:30 PM
I am sorry to hear he beat you.

and just a few posts ago you were wishing "you did not have a heart," so yeah, perhaps you do not have one at all

Quote from: peky on December 24, 2012, 12:00:20 AM
and just a few posts ago you were wishing "you did not have a heart," so yeah, perhaps you do not have one at all

Woah, time out. That was unnecessary.

You had it bad. I get that. I'm sorry you had to experience a rough childhood.

However, I didn't have shoes until I was 5. My dad worked away from home, so I rarely saw him as a kid (maybe 1 week per month). I lived poorly until my parents used their savings, which we sacrificed for years to obtain, to move to the USA. My parents split when I was 10; I get to see my dad once per week. My sister was taken from me by social services due to domestic violence on my mother's part; I can see her every once in a long while. My mom is an emotionally abusive jerk. She once got into a fight with my aunt, and now I barely get to see extended family in the US. My friends are busy during the school year, so I rarely get to see anyone that cares about me. I'm transgender on top of all of this.

You're not the only one that had it bad. If I can go through crap in my life and not snap at anyone who did nothing to deserve it like that, then so can you. Maybe an apology is in order.

OK people let us take a step back and a deep breath.

Count to ten and then have a think about what is important in life.

How fortunate we are to be able to discuss stuff and that we can express opinion in a none attacking way.

If not I will Moderate.

Cindy James

Quote from: peky on December 24, 2012, 12:00:20 AM
and just a few posts ago you were wishing "you did not have a heart," so yeah, perhaps you do not have one at all

No one should ever be beaten, in the name of God, or otherwise.  Parochial schools have the reputation for being tough disciplinarians.

My own kids went to an "Open School" where that sort of thing was not allowed.

Quote from: Zythyra on December 21, 2012, 07:45:56 PM
Then the Pope goes on at some length to insist that God created a "duality" in gender that is "an essential aspect of what being human is all about." He said people are trying to "decide" their genders, calling transgender people a "manipulation of nature."

I'm wearing glasses right now.  Talk about a manipulation of nature.