Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Well I came out fully to my wife yesterday, she's known about this as long as I have (8 months).

I told her first while she was pregnant because I was troubled but didn't think it would go anywhere, then it came up again 2 weeks before our son was born and again when he was about 6 weeks old. I keep trying to bury it but it hasn't worked. I know my timing is awful but each time it felt like I couldn't cope.

Before our son was born it seemed we may have been able to make it work, now she doesn't want to know. Here's the highlights of our talk:

I'm selfish
I don't love her and our son enough to stop this, if it was her just looking at his face would be enough.
My son will be beaten up every day at school because we live in an intolerant place.
I'll lose my job
She'll lose all her family and friends
She'll have to be a single mam in a council house
Our dogs will have to go in a shelter
She wishes our son wasn't born
She feels like taking him and driving off a cliff
I've dragged this on to try and manipulate her
I'm doing this as a subconscious attempt to get back at my mother who has been very difficult during our 10 year relationship (married for 3)
I can't promise I won't decide to leave her for a man

She never once mentioned how I feel or cope.. But I'm selfish.

Now after all that I've said I'll go to a therapist but she doesn't think she can trust me. She basically expects me to go to a therapist so I can find a way to get back to normal.

I don't know what to do, I desperately want to make this work, and if we have to split I would hope to be friends, I feel like the worst person in the world.

Am I being horrible here, brutal honesty please!

I am sorry to hear how your wife reacted, she sounds a lot like mine. It is tough enough to come out and then to receive that kind of reaction just seems to validate our fears of coming out in the first place.

I don't know a solution unfortunately. I can just say I can feel your pain.



Hopefully as they see us transition and see the real person come out they will come around. But they might not and that is sad. 

Sent from my Windows 8 device using Board Express

Possibly not the best time to tell your wife.

Difficult for her on many levels.

I think a bit of planning could have gone into this.

Actually a lot of planning

I'm sorry.
I have to revisit this thread.

This is a personal opinion and I have to express at it.

I was extremely angry but that is no excuse for my harsh words.

I have a dear friend with a child of the same age and it hit me hard.

That is no excuse for my tirade

I apologise.

Cindy James
Global Moderator

Umm..... That was a bit unexpected Cindy.

Cindy thats's probably fair, I don't deserve any better. Feel free to delete this thread and ban me.

I'm going to try and bury this and that'll be the end of it. Thanks for the wake up call.

Cindy, WTF?

Wait!

I agree with the, "that was unexpected Cindy". 

Was this handled poorly Gemma_D?  Yes, you bet.  I had a real problem with being impulsive myself that let me do some really stupid things along with diving into situations I didn't prepare for.  Take this and learn from it.  And I'll say, this one time anyway, ignore Cindy.  I'm here wondering if her account was hacked?

Wow, I've never seen you go off on anyone Cindy.

I agree that the timing was bad. But calling someone names? Isn't that against the rules of this forum too? :(

Gemma_D,

Coming out while your wife is pregnant is not exactly a good thing. It is not easy to carry a child to term and can be quite stressful.  Between morning sickness and all the little aches and pains throughout, I can understand your wife going off on you. Had you chosen a better time to come out, she may not have been as angry.  Above all else, no matter what you do, no matter what the outcome of a divorce if there is one, and if you should transition, your child has to come first. A child should know that no matter what happens, they are loved and they come home to a safe environment.

Oh, and many of the things your wife mentioned are very real fears that many of us have had to go though. so if you think you are just going to dive in without any planning, you will fail in a really epic way.

So, stop and think the next time you feel impulsive, because it's not just you that transitions, your family will too.

Is there context I'm missing?

The timing sucks.  We agree it seems on that.  But I recall hearing of transwoman colliding with themselves when their wives got pregnant because they, the transwoman, could never.  Couple that with being impulsive and you have the recipe for a mess.

I'm looking at this line as maybe, possibly as Cindy's trigger:

Quote from: Gemma_D on December 30, 2012, 03:11:11 AM
She never once mentioned how I feel or cope.. But I'm selfish.

OP, I saw your handle as viewing this thread, if in fact you are still here could you clarify?

I'll add that line I quoted doesn't sound good and leaves me unsettled.  But I would rather know more before jumping to conclusions.

Quote from: Cindy James on December 30, 2012, 04:28:49 AM
I'm sorry.
I have to revisit this thread.

This is a personal opinion and I have to express at it.

I actually thought exactly the same!!

Well regardless of her bad timing, I don't think she did anything so bad that she deserves to be treated with downright cruelty.

Quote from: Misato33 on December 30, 2012, 06:04:39 AM
when their wives got pregnant because they, the transwoman, could never. 

That's a bit of a silly thing to say, isn't it? Conceiving a baby as a cisman is the most masculine thing a cisman can do in his life.

So, if you feel you're a woman then how can you live with that?

Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on December 30, 2012, 06:19:14 AM
Well regardless of her bad timing, I don't think she did anything so bad that she deserves to be treated with downright cruelty.

I don't either.

Quote from: Dahlia on December 30, 2012, 06:25:52 AM
That's a bit of a silly thing to say, isn't it? Conceiving a baby as a cisman is the most masculine thing a cisman can do in his life.

So, if you feel you're a woman then how can you live with that?

Are you talking about those of us who have children who do transition?

I'm just sad someone may have been driven away from the site because of this.  I do think Gemma_D needed help and perspective.  If she's out there, alone now...

I'd of rather had her here venting vs. not.  Hopefully, if indeed gone, she'll still find clarity.

This feels like it could have been handled better.

I'm probably not reading/writing the best.  My cat had a major stinky throw up that woke me up extra early.  My point Dahlia, was I heard of people not equipped with a uterus getting upset/envious when someone who is equipped gets pregnant.  That was it.  But maybe I was in err for tring to make excuses for the OP.  Especially when I know nothing about having kids of my own.

Well, the timing was bad, for sure. Nonetheless, your desire to transition is selfish, just like ALL OF OURS. Admit it people, it is selfish to transition, and frankly, I'm not ashamed of it. My parents would be better off if I chose to just not go through with it, yet I still plan on it. We're all selfish in that regard. You're not a horrible person for deciding to go through with what would be right for you (although your timing could have been better).

However, I don't think your wife is completely in the right, either. She can be upset without ripping your head off. Plus, what does driving her and your son over a cliff have to do with anything?  ???

Quote from: Cindy James on December 30, 2012, 05:32:15 AM
And your attitude is about me me me.

Yes, because I can see how taking remorse over hurting someone else is a selfish attitude. (Sarcasm)

Quote from: DianaP on December 30, 2012, 06:43:57 AM
Plus, what does driving her and your son over a cliff have to do with anything?  ???

Yeah.  That's alarming too.

I know all too well what coming out, or even accidental discoveries, can do to a wife. Even to a wife that knew knew from day 1 of dating about your gender issues. On most points Gemma's wife is dead on target. Transitioning is not an easy decision to make and it especially is not easy to execute. I've been wrestling with the Cost-Benefit analysis for years. There is no good solution if the decision over transitioning is anything other than suicide or....

I also know pretty well how Cindy feels. I was similarly appaled hearing of a new member to my TG group in much the same situation, with child #2. It is not like the gender issue suddenly came up after the wife became pregnant. While I understand the whole "Let's try doing normal" routine well, do guy stuff, get married, maybe that will fix me. To the best of my knowledge neither hardly ever works, perhaps makes things worse. Especially since it is not just your life in the balance. Going as far thinking maybe a baby will fix me and within weeks do a 180 is totally selfish. Not well thought out at all.

Surprised by Cindy's bluntness - Yes
Disagree with her - No

Gemma, I'm not going to address your question directly. You have my support. You have a mess to work out, as many here have had to do. I hope you find a good solution. Hugs, Devlyn

Well... not much sense in beating yourself, or being beat, over what's been done - can't take it back; and it's a waste of time and resources...

Reckon from here you'll just have to search for a way to make the path forward as painless as possible for all involved...

I wish you, and your family, clear minds and steady hearts.

Sadie out.

I kept trying to see both sides here and the more I read that first post, the less I can do that. A mother that would commit suicide with an infant has got some issues, but it sounds like you suddenly realized you might be trans and immediately came out with it. Most people don't do that, especially not to a woman that's 3 months pregnant. Sounds like you told her on a whim without seeking professional guidance first. No sense worrying about the past now, but definitely take the time to see a therapist before making anymore rash decisions.

Quote from: Gemma_D on December 30, 2012, 03:11:11 AM
She wishes our son wasn't born
She feels like taking him and driving off a cliff

First, this ^^ two sentences -if accurately quoted- should be taken very seriously. I strongly suggest you take steps to get some family psychotherapy. Second, I would advice you tell somebody about this threats, like a social worker, pediatrician, OBGYN, clergy. IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY AS THE FATHER TO PROTECT YOUR BABY!

It is possible that your disclosures combined with a post-partum depression may be at work here.

It is not unheard that pregnancy and delivery tend to exacerbate the dysphoria of TG/TS fathers.

Based on what you posted I would not think you acted maliciously, so i would not characterize you as a "bad" person. In a a highly emotional situation you failed to exercise a bit of common sense. This kind of of bad timing due to immaturity and inexperience happens to all of us, so do not beat up yourself, seek a way to fix up the situation.

I hope you do not get ban because you do need some help and advice at this juncture.

At this point I would advice you put your child and spouse well being first; approach her with love, apologize for your thoughtlessness. Seek therapy, and wait for a more propitious time and place.


Courage!

Thanks everyone, I appreciate your concern. We're all fine and working through things, I rushed the first post and probably didn't put things across properly, anyway it's not worth going into much more. We are all going to be ok.

I actually want to thank Cindy in particular, I really did need that kick in the arse.

Now that I'm awake, and since I got myself so deeply involved in this already:

Quote from: Gemma_D on December 30, 2012, 03:11:11 AM
I can't promise I won't decide to leave her for a man

I'd say this line needs a lot of attention too, given how recently you've had a child together. Edit: exclude the "for a man" part.  Focus on "I can't promise I won't decide to leave her" and how that sounds to her.

Get help Gemma_D, for the sake of your child because it seems like both your wife and you really need it.  I regret you got name called when you reached out here, by a moderator no less, that still bothers me now that I'm awake.  I see you're cool with it now that I've previewed my post.  I still don't feel good about it and I am concerned you'll leave this taking away, I'm going to call it a naïve lesson.

Quote from: Gemma_D on December 30, 2012, 05:02:55 AM
I'm going to try and bury this and that'll be the end of it.

Over the long haul, odds are burying will not be a viable solution.  I suspect this because I tried that.  I also was impulsive for a very long time and that let me do things I now very much regret.  That's why I felt like I had to jump in on this thread in the first place.

But after recognizing I've been impulsive (Big thank you to my therapist for that) I've learned to think, and plan, and my life and my transition have improved markedly for it.  So the potential most egregious sin here Gemma_D, is if you didn't learn anything from this or you just quit or bury, and didn't try to find some healing.  Indeed, I'd say everything here is worth going into much, much, more detail about. Not all with us, but with a therapist, at the very least just to be on the safe side for everyone involved.

I don't think anyone in their sane mind would disagree with Cindy on this.

But the timing of it is extremely bad, your wife is going through hell right now. Having a baby is not an easy task, giving birth to a child is not easy and in all cases extremely painfull and her body is going bonkers. So yeah, she was without a doubt terrified that her partner might leave her or worse just after the child is born, and it would not be possible for her in her present condition to be looking at you being TG in a rational manner.
And from her statements that you've quoted it seems she feels that she is tied you via her child and she really is desperate which any mother who's just gone through pregnancy would be.

I know am probably pointing out the obvious thing that a lot of people may have brought up.

Whether you may realise it or not you both need serious counselling on how to handle this and you BOTH need to visit a therapist. Things like a potential suicide could be a very real possibility for both wife and child, and if she has said that she wants to end both their lives then it's a very real possibility.

Personally I would die rather that let my kid suffer. And there are a lot of things you need to consider from now on and you need to start taking things seriously.
And please don't beat yourself up over this but for the sake of your wife and child - and yourself - be there for them.

Yeah, this is really sad and unfortunate. I'm sorry but I have my whole sympathy for the wife and the innocent baby here. I hope you get help from professional counseling and I wish you the best of luck with your family issue.

Guess my timing was bad when i came out to my family friends on facebook and caused my mother to disown me.Wasnt on a whim or just out of the blue,it was something i dealt with ALL of my life and i was tired of hiding.If you look into the future and you say *now what if one would have waited for the perfect time.what would be the outcome?* for some of us,there is no perfect time because the longer we wait,the more we die inside.For some of us,huge life changes can kick us in the face with reality.do you agree? for example.you propose to someone and of course your nervous about it but its not until your standing up there and you realize *...ok things have really just changed* and many frankly pass out or throw up,and even worse-some run away and leave the other standing at the alter.Yes its sad but its true.she could have held it in but also think,what if that was all bottled up inside-even with a baby on the way? I am taking no sides but pointing out ALL aspects of how a person deals since we are all diffrent.So in my opinion,the timing should not be an issue but how the timing was dealt with and the outcome.Because in all reality,there is NEVER a perfect time for one to come out.EVER and if one claims there is then they have never dealt with the prosecution it brings.Oh sure one can *try* and ease the pain by coming in slowly,maybe even doing it in a loving manner and educating those around them but the reality is,it depends on the person your coming out to.nothing else.One who is open minded can accept it well while another -no matter how easy,loving or education you give- will always be cold,heartless and push you away.take my mother for example-she was the first i came out to,i tried to educate her on everything by giving her the information,she refused it bluntly and coldly,rebuked me,damned me and demanded i *fix it* or allow *her to fix it* and when she thought it was gone,she went back to her normal ways,until she found it wasnt.she then *when i offered the information agian and let her know nothing has changed about me otherwise and im still her child* she coldly acted like she didnt know me at all and walked away.So for me in this and my opinion,depending how she came out-the reactions she got was uncalled for and cold,regardless if the woman was pregnant or not.of course you also have to think *what is really bad timing?* I can give a few examples to this.1) standing at the alter with your soon to be wife/husband and saying *oh btw this is my coming out and in a few years ill be mr/mrs soon* 2) while having sex and trying to have a baby *hun im coming out to you and i hope its ok* and MANY more i can name.and even then,depending on how it was dealt with-is what matters.standing at the alter,and saying it out loud so the whole place can hear-yes is wrong,bad timing and in bad taste BUT if out of guilt you pull them to the side and say in private *i have to do this* then the reaction of the person determines.for many people they hide it even years before they get with that someone special and once they fall deep in love,it makes it even harder as they want that person to love them for who they really are-not a fake image.this is my personal opinion and to the OP-yes realize there is a way things can be handled and ways they can not but if you felt that you couldnt keep hiding,knowing a baby was coming and for me,idk if i could myself-not come out,knowing my life was about to change to such a high degree,then do not feel bad.only YOU know the motives behind why you did it then and do not beat yourself up for her reaction.just know that you have friends here.

<3

I'm shocked and appalled by Cindy's comments. Should we be free to tell people when they've made a mistake? Of course, but calling someone despicable is awful and wholly unbecoming of a staff member. Just because you made better decisions in your life does not give you the moral right to cast stones.

Gemma, you were being naive and unrealistic if you thought your wife would take this well, but don't let anyone here demonize you for going through a period of self-denial. MOST trans individuals try to repress and lead a normal life, you're not an exception. It's sad that it came to this, but you should not be vilified for getting married or conceiving. Your timing sucks, yes, but there really wouldn't be an ideal time anyway. Should you wait until your child is a toddler? A teenager? An adult? There's no way to avoid hurting your family, but that doesn't mean you should let yourself suffer with gender dysphoria. Do what you need to do to make sure your wife is emotionally and mentally stable, but don't pretend you're something you're not just to please others.

Shame on the negative people. Where's your empathy?

Welcome to the board Gemma. There's people on here who's come out after years of marriage yet managed to stay together, or peacefully went their separate ways, so don't feel too disheartened right now. I agree with people above who say that you and your wife should seek counseling, either together or separately. Coming out while pregnant may not have been the best timing, but what's done is done and it's time to try to repair fences. There is a part on this forum dedicated to significant others, maybe your wife would be willing to talk to some of the people on that board? It would be nice if you two could manage to stay together somehow so you both can enjoy your baby's young years together and manage to help each other out for awhile.

I hope things work out.

Your timing sucks, but you have my support Gemma. Please get help for yourself and your family, and do what is best for your child first.

Also remember that the best thing may not be the clearest to see, or the easiest to do, but must be done. You and your wife need to both be there for your child, in some form.

Personally, I do not think it is a selfish thing to transition.. I think it is selfish of the others who tell people they shouldn't. It is YOUR life. You only get one and it is horrible for people to try to tell you how to live it. Honestly, I don't understand why it should affect someones loved ones, friends, or family, because it is not a big deal. People go through changes their whole life, why is this one so different? Now for Gemma's situation, obviously not a good time to do it, but I think I can understand why. I don't think anyone comes out 'on a whim'. I'm sure it was eating away at her and she just couldn't handle it anymore. To say you don't know if you would stay with your wife, obviously that is quite awful. If my gf had come out to me with those words, I wouldn't have wanted her to transition either! I want her to live the way she wants, but I adore her beyond words and it would devastate me to lose that in my life (male or female, it doesn't matter!). I can understand why your wife is freaking out, with having just had a baby and opening a new chapter in her life, you've just scrambled it all up. Your biggest mistake was prolly telling her you don't know if you'd leave her. Other than that comment, I can't see why she would care what you chose to do with your body, as long as you are devoted to her and your family. This is a mess you've gotten yourself into, but it doesn't mean you're a bad person or shouldn't transition. These are choices you're gonna have to live with and make the best of. Good luck!

Gemma, your timing may have been poor but what's done is done and all you can do is make the best of things.  I came out to my wife quite badly as well.  She was by turns furious, depressed, ambivalent and hostile for the next months.  She still has issues now and then.  I know this because we didn't split up.

Give your spouse time to digest this news.  Don't sweep it under the rug and don't keep constantly bringing it up.  Provide her with education, information that she can use to make sense of what has happened.  If you find a therapist it might be a good idea if she could see one too, and not necessarily the same one.

Above all else give her time and patience, even though patience is the last thing you want to practice.  Indeed, get a qualified therapist, even if she won't go, so you can receive good assistance in dealing with your issues.  it's an unfortunate fact that most committed relationships do not survive a gender transition but that doesn't mean all will fail.  Plan for the worst and hope for the best.

I've always felt that the wives and husbands of trans people who married before transition are the biggest losers from the process.  Trans people do lose a lot - their entire lives sometimes - but they get an authentic life in return.  Their spouses, however, don;t get much of any reward.

Be patient, be kind (although that is hard a lot of the time), and above all else make sure you don't completely sacrifice your self in service of her needs.  It won;t work anyway and neither of you will be happy if you try.

hugs & smiles
Emelye

You picked a bad time to tell her, now from her perspective it looks like you don't love her and the baby, you need to get some help for your family fast, and please do not just run off and forget you have a child now. It doesn't work that way. You are a parent and you will need to deal with that 1st.

I don't see how some of you form your ideas...Yes, the timing was "bad", but as she said, "I couldn't cope."

We all know that one of the many problems with transitioning is depression, and that can go all the way to some form of self-harm...yet without knowing the extent of "I couldn't cope", you dare to suggest that Gemma should stay silent?

What I see here is a lack of empathy from the wife; her only saving grace is that she was pregnant at the time. But, if Gemma had cancer and was going to die in a few months...should she consider "timing" to be an issue? Best to let Mrs. Gemma know about significant, life-changing events as soon as possible, yes?

I don't see Gemma's issue as being "lack of timing", it's lack of encouragement and support to the new mom; specifically reassuring her that she will be with her and the baby regardless, and if that's not possible (due to the mother's rejection of Gemma), then whole-heartedly giving of financial support to both of them to the best of her ability. This is not something one can say just once or twice, but it must be said, and said often...and put into action as well.

I do agree on counseling for both of them, it sounds like there's an ongoing communication issue going on, as well as the current drama.

Gemma, please stay here and seek whatever knowledge or...*snort*...wisdom may be found...but also please seek out a counselor (non-religious; they tend to be hostile to transpeople) for everyone's sake on your side of the keyboard.

I think we have all done things that we later realized could have been handled in a better way.  None of us asked for this F**ked up condition and we all deal with it differently depending on our education, social circles, intelligence and life experiences. Lots of trans-people know something is wrong but they can't really put the pieces together because pieces of the puzzle are missing or hidden due to lack of knowledge or denial.

The unwitting trans-person then tries to navigate through life doing what family, friends and society expects them to do. They move forward with the expectation of things working out like they do for most people but they don't realize that this alter ego of a person ,that has been created for self protection and meeting societies expectations, has a terminal condition. 

For some, the condition is  apparant as soon as they can grab a barbie and point to the "princess dress" and then others can't manage to keep up with the gender expectations and constraints and give up even trying while still a teen. Others make it further and try harder to be normal by following societal cues and expectations but at some point the "condition" intensifies. The condition has a "break-point and we have as about much choice in where that break-point is than if we had a cancerous tumor growing in our body. For some, that break-point comes with very bad timing for us and or others, or it may come after our wife leaves us (in one way or another) and some of us manage to hold out and just die before it gets us.

If you die of cancer while you have small children, does that make you a selfish person?  I don't think so. The biggest choice many of us have in all of this is how do we manage this condition between the point of where we get all the pieces together and come to the full realization of who and what we are and the the breaking point/ terminal point.  I have studied this condition for the last 2 years with an intensity that I have NEVER put into studying ANYTHING. It has been an interesting two years to say the least and I have thought about putting a gun to my head "thousands of times during that period. I've prayed to god to change me one way or another and I've cursed him for my very existence and asked him to please just end my cowardly life.

Sometime during that period, I silently said to myself "I'm a transsexual". I couldn't even say it out loud and I'm a very strong person mentally and physical (not so much physically now) and I never backed down from a fight or challenge. I have climbed mountain peeks, jumped out of planes, drug machine guns and people through miles of forest, deserts and wilderness and pushed myself way past the point that many people break. But..... I wasn't strong enough to fight this though. Over the next few days I was able to actually say it out loud without stuttering and then a few days later I could look in the mirror and say it.  What does all that mean? It means that if some of the smartest, strong-spirited, educated people in the world with the the most to loose can't overcome this, how can anyone else?

For me, I know my terminal point is at least a couple of years out. That means that if I do nothing and continue as "him" and pretend everything is fine, I will be a very angry, bitter shell of a person that will either put a bullet in my head to everyone's relief,  have a complete breakdown and loose the capacity to support myself or anyone else or transition without any preparations such as HRT, therapy, hair removal or anything else which will be MAGNITUDES harder for me and everyone else than if I take this window of opportunity (that you may call a "Choice") to prepare for the inevitable conclusion.

With that said, I can understand the feelings of shock and horror that some have had to the original post but I'm absolutely disgusted that anyone would respond in such a harsh and demeaning manner (especially without knowing a LOT more of the story) to someone who is obviously distressed by their own acts of blindly floundering through this and making mistakes that are most likely a result of her coming to her own breaking point without any or enough preparation.  It's a really heartbreaking post and stories like this are the biggest reason that transsexualism needs to be demystified and destigmafied so that people don't have to go through such a personal hell to even look in the mirror and say "I'm a transsexual" and get the help they need before hurting others or becoming a severely broken and damaged person that is the fate of so many trans-people.

Gemma, please read this article which may give you some more understanding and acceptance of yourself and it may be something helpful for you to share with others in you life.  I found it to be quite an eye opener even after I read countless other things. 

14 Stages of Transsexualism
http://web.uvic.ca/~ahdevor/14StagesBLOCK.pdf (http://web.uvic.ca/~ahdevor/14StagesBLOCK.pdf)

Maybe my usage of the phrase "on a whim" was a bit too much in my first post. The content of the original post seemed like there was enough information to determine that there was no prior struggle with this issue. That 8 months ago, she realized she was trans and immediately told her wife, then continued to bring it up over the next 8 months. When most spend years struggling with it before coming to the conclusion of being trans and telling their loved ones finally, the rate at which she apparently told her wife seemed extremely fast to me. I apologize if it was too much, but at least the rest of my post was supportive.

Quote from: Beth Andrea on December 30, 2012, 04:10:16 PM
What I see here is a lack of empathy from the wife; her only saving grace is that she was pregnant at the time. But, if Gemma had cancer and was going to die in a few months...should she consider "timing" to be an issue? Best to let Mrs. Gemma know about significant, life-changing events as soon as possible, yes?

Gender Dysphoria isn't cancer.  And I get what you're driving at Beth, I do.  I, we here, all know how it eats at a soul like a tumor, but it's not a real physical tumor that will kill you and is beyond any of your restraint.  Darn it, the impulsive thing I regret is telling my SO I was a crossdresser (cause at the time I thought that's where I peaked) right after her grandpa died.  I'm talking within 24 hours of him dying of Mad Cow so you can imagine how well that was going already.  I regret that.  My timing sucked.  We survived so far, but coming out then and WRONGLY was really stupid on my part.  I could have waited seven days.  I could have waited, and paid-- nothing.  Cindy, I don't need you coming down on me for my long past actions by the way.  I know my mistakes, and I have my regrets that I live with.

I maintain, the wrong lesson is at high risk of being learned by Gemma_D here because of the words of a moderator and some general members.  Anger & name calling, was not the right response.  The perspective of:

Quote from: JessicaH on December 30, 2012, 04:15:35 PM
With that said, I can understand the feelings of shock and horror that some have had to the original post but I'm absolutely disgusted that anyone would respond in such a harsh and demeaning manner (especially without knowing a LOT more of the story) to someone who is obviously distressed by their own acts of blindly floundering through this and making mistakes that are most likely a result of her coming to her own breaking point without any or enough preparation.

strikes me as a more appropriate place to base a reply from.

Quote from: Gemma_D on December 30, 2012, 03:11:11 AM
Well I came out fully to my wife yesterday, she's known about this as long as I have (8 months).

I told her first while she was pregnant because I was troubled but didn't think it would go anywhere, then it came up again 2 weeks before our son was born and again when he was about 6 weeks old. I keep trying to bury it but it hasn't worked. I know my timing is awful but each time it felt like I couldn't cope.

Before our son was born it seemed we may have been able to make it work, now she doesn't want to know. Here's the highlights of our talk:

I'm selfish
I don't love her and our son enough to stop this, if it was her just looking at his face would be enough.
My son will be beaten up every day at school because we live in an intolerant place.
I'll lose my job
She'll lose all her family and friends
She'll have to be a single mam in a council house
Our dogs will have to go in a shelter
She wishes our son wasn't born
She feels like taking him and driving off a cliff
I've dragged this on to try and manipulate her
I'm doing this as a subconscious attempt to get back at my mother who has been very difficult during our 10 year relationship (married for 3)
I can't promise I won't decide to leave her for a man

She never once mentioned how I feel or cope.. But I'm selfish.

Now after all that I've said I'll go to a therapist but she doesn't think she can trust me. She basically expects me to go to a therapist so I can find a way to get back to normal.

I don't know what to do, I desperately want to make this work, and if we have to split I would hope to be friends, I feel like the worst person in the world.

Am I being horrible here, brutal honesty please!

Kia Ora Gemma,

::) Simple answer "NO"  It's done now ! No more worrying over 'spilt milk', you can't pour it back...All you can do is clean it up as best as you can...

BTW " Let those 'without' sin cast the first stone!"

Metta Zenda :)

Thank you for the supportive comments everyone. I'd like to clear a few things up.

My initial post was rushed and I wasn't in a good place while it was written. There are a lot of points that were glossed over that made both of us look worse.

I initially 'came out' in a moment of confusion, attempting to be open and communicative. I had just started having confusing feelings and thought it best to talk it through, I thought they would just pass. Obviously that failed. I never married or had a child to 'fix me' as I didn't know there was anything to fix.

The second time, I had a bit of a breakdown while in the bath, pulled myself together enough to get out. My wife noticed something was wrong and asked me what, I said it was nothing (I'm a lousy liar) and she asked over and over, obviously worried. This continued until the next morning when  I gave up trying to convince her and spat it out. It was hard afterwards but we reached an acceptance and she was super supportive, as long as it was kept behind closed doors.

When our son was born it felt like a taboo again, and I purged. We aren't great communicators as we're always worried about upsetting each other so I bottled things up rather than talking. Eventually it got too much and we had a 'coming out' similar to the previous one.

Since then it's been hanging over us, and I've agonised over the hurt I've caused her and would cause in future to her and our son. If it wasn't for them this would have been an easy decision but I can't bring myself to hurt them like that. We have had the odd fight where we almost split and I wanted to give up and just leave and start transitioning but always chose to stay and fight for us. I have thought about this every day for 8 months, never managing to accept or completely reject it, driving myself mad and becoming distant from my family, which was unfair.

I have been selfish in that I wanted to do what I thought I needed to, and try to keep our family together. I naively thought that with enough time we could make it work.

I didn't want to do anything before Christmas, but thought that the break before I go back to work after would give us a good block of time to talk, knowing it would be rough but that we should have time to try and talk it out. I couldn't bring myself to do it though, but I was so on edge we had another 'dragging out' session.

This is stupid of me and I know it.

Her saying about killing herself and our son was idle talk said in despair, she would never. Ever.

I promised I wouldn't leave her for anyone, she felt I couldn't make that promise. That obviously wasn't clear in what I wrote earlier.

I understood all of her worries, I just didn't necessarily agree with them all, but they are her worries and so they matter to me. Some of them I definitely did share.

We have been talking now and are in a good place, it's early days but I genuinely believe we can find a balance that we are both happy with. This is *not* me burying everything. It's also not a transition.

Once again, I just want to say I was in a terrible place when I posted, and I rushed it. I was hurting and yes I was being incredibly selfish. I'm not proud of it. If nothing else hopefully this can show people what not to do.

I will probably check in on this thread because I care more than I should about what people think of me. I don't think I'll be posting again though. I hopefully won't need to.

Wish us luck?

Of course we wish you luck. Hugs, Devlyn

I wish you mega good luck!

You should have been given the opportunity to explain yourself, not vilified right out of the gate.  Those of us further along in the process especially should know better than to do that.

I think your path is familiar.  That's probably why this is all bugging me so much.  Maybe you don't need to transition, maybe you're some place else on the gender spectrum than I, but from my experience and that I've gleaned from others I feel compelled to implore you to recognize there's probably something real inside you here that needs to be dealt with professionally.

Again, mega good luck.  To you and all yours.

Gemma, as many have said this was poor timing on your part.  Does anyone expect you to live a lie? NO ...you can't just ultimately bury this part of you within or you'll continue to have break downs.but, I would suggest waiting..I remember for me that(after having a baby) was a HUGELY emotional time for me and then probably for at least 3 or 4 months after my son was born.  Your wife, while I'm sure you do love her, needs you to love her more than you love your self right now.  I'm not saying don't transition, I personally think it would be in the best interest of your wife & son to put this off for 6 months.  Give her time to recover from giving birth, post partum is a very REAL thing and this coming out of yours may just add to her emotional turmoil.  She's worried about you 'leaving her' because many women after giving birth have very low self esteem and feel a lot of dysphoria of their own.  There's a time to put yourself first, but this isn't it.  I know it's hard to wait, but your time will come.  You really need to focus on just getting through these next few months with infant sleep/eat schedules and her physical recovery from labor as well. I would like to say what Peky wrote earlier is very real, if your wife has even hinted about doing something drastic like hurting herself or the baby take action.  I know you say 'you know her and she never would' but I can tell you that after childbirth women sometimes have very irrational thoughts.  It's not their fault, it really is like they're a different person for a little while.  I am a very sane person, but after childbirth even I had some wacko thoughts...obviously I didn't act on them, but the things that go through a post pregnant womans mind can just really be off the wall, so please take it seriously. I wish you luck and will be hoping you, your wife and your precious son get through this!

Gemma, I am glad you are still here. I completely understand where you were coming from and had a feeling it went something like that from your op. This is a support forum and to get slammed by a MOD right out of the gate without them knowing the full story, I don't know what to say about that (that won't get me banned).
 
I had the unfortunate timing of coming out fully to my wife at dinner on our 19th anniversary.
Like you I had been struggling with "it" for some time, she sensed something was wrong and asked me about it.

Were we supposed to lie and cover up for a while longer?

Best wishes for you and your family...*hugs*

But, keep your account here...sounds like you may want to talk to someone about trans stuff, whether or not you go further in your journey. Please keep us in mind if you get to a difficult "place."

:)

A few points:

1. Timing could've been a lot better (I think we've established that).
2. By dictionary definition, transition is selfish. We're doing something to make ourselves feel better. That's selfish. Not to say it's bad, but it's selfish. So's telling someone not to transition. They're both selfish. I'm just being realistic.
3. Don't expect your wife to stay with you. She didn't sign into a marriage with a woman. Not to say it's impossible for her to stay, but she most likely won't.
4. Post partum depression is real. I would keep an eye on your wife in case she tries anything funny.
5. I'd seek counseling for both of you, although I think that you have different issues to work out.

Good luck. Sounds like you need it.

Quote from: JessicaH on December 30, 2012, 04:15:35 PM
I think we have all done things that we later realized could have been handled in a better way.  None of us asked for this F**ked up condition and we all deal with it differently depending on our education, social circles, intelligence and life experiences. Lots of trans-people know something is wrong but they can't really put the pieces together because pieces of the puzzle are missing or hidden due to lack of knowledge or denial.

The unwitting trans-person then tries to navigate through life doing what family, friends and society expects them to do. They move forward with the expectation of things working out like they do for most people but they don't realize that this alter ego of a person ,that has been created for self protection and meeting societies expectations, has a terminal condition. 

For some, the condition is  apparant as soon as they can grab a barbie and point to the "princess dress" and then others can't manage to keep up with the gender expectations and constraints and give up even trying while still a teen. Others make it further and try harder to be normal by following societal cues and expectations but at some point the "condition" intensifies. The condition has a "break-point and we have as about much choice in where that break-point is than if we had a cancerous tumor growing in our body. For some, that break-point comes with very bad timing for us and or others, or it may come after our wife leaves us (in one way or another) and some of us manage to hold out and just die before it gets us.

If you die of cancer while you have small children, does that make you a selfish person?  I don't think so. The biggest choice many of us have in all of this is how do we manage this condition between the point of where we get all the pieces together and come to the full realization of who and what we are and the the breaking point/ terminal point.  I have studied this condition for the last 2 years with an intensity that I have NEVER put into studying ANYTHING. It has been an interesting two years to say the least and I have thought about putting a gun to my head "thousands of times during that period. I've prayed to god to change me one way or another and I've cursed him for my very existence and asked him to please just end my cowardly life.

Sometime during that period, I silently said to myself "I'm a transsexual". I couldn't even say it out loud and I'm a very strong person mentally and physical (not so much physically now) and I never backed down from a fight or challenge. I have climbed mountain peeks, jumped out of planes, drug machine guns and people through miles of forest, deserts and wilderness and pushed myself way past the point that many people break. But..... I wasn't strong enough to fight this though. Over the next few days I was able to actually say it out loud without stuttering and then a few days later I could look in the mirror and say it.  What does all that mean? It means that if some of the smartest, strong-spirited, educated people in the world with the the most to loose can't overcome this, how can anyone else?

For me, I know my terminal point is at least a couple of years out. That means that if I do nothing and continue as "him" and pretend everything is fine, I will be a very angry, bitter shell of a person that will either put a bullet in my head to everyone's relief,  have a complete breakdown and loose the capacity to support myself or anyone else or transition without any preparations such as HRT, therapy, hair removal or anything else which will be MAGNITUDES harder for me and everyone else than if I take this window of opportunity (that you may call a "Choice") to prepare for the inevitable conclusion.

With that said, I can understand the feelings of shock and horror that some have had to the original post but I'm absolutely disgusted that anyone would respond in such a harsh and demeaning manner (especially without knowing a LOT more of the story) to someone who is obviously distressed by their own acts of blindly floundering through this and making mistakes that are most likely a result of her coming to her own breaking point without any or enough preparation.  It's a really heartbreaking post and stories like this are the biggest reason that transsexualism needs to be demystified and destigmafied so that people don't have to go through such a personal hell to even look in the mirror and say "I'm a transsexual" and get the help they need before hurting others or becoming a severely broken and damaged person that is the fate of so many trans-people.

Gemma, please read this article which may give you some more understanding and acceptance of yourself and it may be something helpful for you to share with others in you life.  I found it to be quite an eye opener even after I read countless other things. 

14 Stages of Transsexualism
http://web.uvic.ca/~ahdevor/14StagesBLOCK.pdf (http://web.uvic.ca/~ahdevor/14StagesBLOCK.pdf)

That is such a great explanation Jessica. Looking forward to reading that paper after taking a little mental break needed from reading this thread.

@Gemma_D - Good luck to you and your family.

Gemma - I understand your situation.  I guess I was lucky, in a way.  My dysphoria was not so great as to completely consume me.  At the time though, I thought they were sexual orientation issues - I had little or no concept of gender issues.  I married and fathered children, and lived in that role for decades. My eldest is now 26; my youngest 19.

I could deal with my undiagnosed gender issues during that time with some coping behaviors, and not a small amount of denial.  But here's the thing ... I did not not flee from my responsibilities.  We have several members here to have transitioned with small children in the home.  It complicates things, certainly.  It may break up your relationship, depending on how you wife reacts.  But it may not.

I would urge you to have your wife join the SO group here, or seek out some counseling.  I urge you to get/continue counseling as well.  Best of luck to you.

EDIT:  Let me also remind the commentors in this topic, and those who have reported posts, the OP (Gemma) asked for "brutal honesty."  You should not complain when it is given.

I am not sure if transitioning is selfish in of itself, I have been told here by a few mods and staff that it is not selfish to be an authentic you. I am sorry things have worked out this way so far for you Gemma.

Quote from: Pleasingly Plump Jamie D on December 30, 2012, 07:36:17 PM
EDIT:  Let me also remind the commentors in this topic, and those who have reported posts, the OP (Gemma) asked for "brutal honesty."  You should not complain when it is given.

Well, there's a difference between brutal honesty ("you're wrong, no if's, and's, or but's about it) and being insulting//callous//inappropriate. Just my two cents.

Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on December 30, 2012, 08:07:28 PM
I am not sure if transitioning is selfish in of itself

*Runs of to start new thread to discuss an interesting point*

Quote from: DianaP on December 30, 2012, 08:12:33 PM
Well, there's a difference between brutal honesty ("you're wrong, no if's, and's, or but's about it) and being insulting//callous//inappropriate. Just my two cents.

/me does a matching 2 cent dontion.

Take care, Gemma.  For both you and the family.

Quote from: DianaP on December 30, 2012, 08:12:33 PM
Well, there's a difference between brutal honesty ("you're wrong, no if's, and's, or but's about it) and being insulting//callous//inappropriate. Just my two cents.

*Runs of to start new thread to discuss an interesting point*

Well, Diana, Cindy's post was brutally frank anf honest.  I think that is exactly what the OP asked for.  And a number of other posters agreed with Cindy, though it was seeming out of character for her.

Sometimes we all need a pat on the back; other times we need a kick in the rear.  The kicks hurt more, I can tell you from experience.

Living your life as you isn't selfish.  It is baseline humanity.  As for your wife.  You two should go to couples therapy and have a professional calm things down a few notches.  Transitioning is nowhere near as exciting as she thinks it is.  Sure at first it will be different but eventually it all normalizes.

Also why does she think your dogs will get taken away?  That's a weird one.

Quote from: Cindy James on December 30, 2012, 04:28:49 AM
I'm sorry.
I have to revisit this thread.
*I edited this because Cindy edited her original post*

Cindy James
Global Moderator

I was thinking similar things when i first read this original post.

Telling her when she first got pregnant, then again shortly after your son's birth....that's really really really poor timing.

I have to agree with your wife's thoughts on this one.

However, everyone pretty much made that clear and i don't want to continue to beat a dead horse with a stick.

But i do want to say some things:

Some feel that it's best to come out of the closet as it were. While I do agree with this statement, I also agree with the mentality than when someone does come out of the closet one needs to use tact, courtesy, planning and sympathy. Like telling one's wife on their wedding anniversary or telling their wife after they give birth is just poor judgement. That doesn't mean you shouldn't be true to yourself..but that type of action can be construed as very selfish...in a bad way.

For me...and this is simply my own personal walk and in no way a measuring rod of morality; but when I first had sex with my wife on my wedding night I realized it was a brutal mistake. I married her for religious pressure and other reasons...and yes I did love her. But when we made love I realized our love was not as lovers at all.

At the same time, I realized that the oath of marriage was an oath I took seriously. I knew I was a girl before I took the oath of marriage ...it is along the lines of "I made my bed now I must sleep in it."

We had children and I had every intention remaining a man. For me it was for the sake of my family. This was my choice.

Then my wife's bi polar and schizophrenia grew stronger and in her religious beliefs she thought God would heal her. God didn't. I came home one day and they were gone.

She left. The oath was broken by her and I transitioned.

As I said, this is my own personal journey and mine alone.

With that said, I would never be able to understand how someone would have this conversation with a woman who was pregnant...and then shortly after giving birth.

If you thought this strongly...why did you have a baby? Or why did you tell her when you did? It doesn't make any sense to me.

I know people have given Cindy a lot of flack for her outburst but she was honest. If i was your wife I probably would not have called you an ->-bleeped-<-....i probably would have said and done much, much worse.

Nevertheless, I do wish you well and I pray that your wife can be comforted in this

No matter  my personal opinion I was wrong in reacting the way I did.

I apologise for allowing my anger to overwhelm me.

I control it but sometimes it flares.

I aplogise

Quote from: EmmaMcAllister on December 30, 2012, 03:06:15 PM
Should you wait until your child is a toddler? A teenager? An adult?

Just come out BEFORE marrying an unsuspecting wife AND conceiving children with her.

Leave  your future wife a choice.

Dear Gemma,

My heart just breaks for you, your wife, and the new baby. I think most of us knows there are times when we reach a breaking point with regard to our dysphoria, a point that takes us beyond our ability to choose rationally, to select a better timing for hard decisions, and some "unspeakable" things, once spoken, cannot ever really be taken back.

My thoughts as you described this were of my own journey. For better or worse, I first wanted to transition in my mid twenties before I met my wife, but that was so many years ago there was no internet and I didn't know where to turn for information. Completely unaware of any sort of FFS capability, or much understanding even of what HRT could accomplish, I resigned myself that transition was not possible for me, that I could never pass, and I tried mightily to repress my feelings. Desperately lonely, and completely broken hearted, I found another needy person and we constructed a "love" on this unsure footing. Soon after we were married I discovered that I could not repress my feelings, and came out to my wife. She was compassionate, and tried to be understanding, but in the end, she could not accept this from me and I somehow went back into the closet to try to save the marriage (I am not particularly recommending this, but it is what I did). I continued to cross dress frequently and fantasize almost constantly, but I did my very best to hide my feelings for thirty years. Finally with two grown children in their twenties, I reached a breaking point where I was about to walk in front of a commuter train, but fortunately found the courage to call local gender therapists till I got someone on the phone, literally sitting in my car less than a hundred yards from the train tracks. I finally decided I could either write my family a transition letter or a suicide note. I have now come out to my wife and one of my children. My wife moved out but we are still friends. My son loves and accepts me for who I am.

I totally understand what could drive you to take ill-considered actions. We do not choose the time and place that these things happen in our lives. We do the best we can to play the hand we are dealt.

You did not choose to be trans any more than your wife chose to marry a trans person, or your baby chose even to be born, but here you are, the three of you in the crux of this terrible / wonderful thing we call life. I dare say this is going to require the greatest depths of love, devotion, compassion, and understanding from both you and your wife. I suspect both you and your wife recognize that your actions must be considered in terms of how best to care for your helpless innocent child that is depending on you, and to preserve as much as possible of the relationship which conceived him. Professionals may prove extremely valuable as you try to sort this out, but in the end it is likely to require greater depths of character from both of you than any other experience either of you have ever lived.

Cling hard to every joy you find that they may sustain you through the difficult times, which will surely come. Love your wife as completely as you can. The hormonal storm that ravages a new mother's body through pregnancy and childbirth is difficult to believe, she will need your love and support, just as you will need her's to see you through dysphoria. No one has more at stake than the two of you. I am sure every member of this board wishes you, all three, every blessing and success that is possible. I pray that your child will grow up confident of the love of his parents.

Sincerely,

- Heather

I read once that the selfishness of transitioning is the same as the selfishness of eating - we help ourselves to survive by doing it.  I agree.  I think being selfish when you have a viable choice to do otherwise is a problem but when all the options are bad then it's hardly selfish to choose the one that adds to physical, mental and emotional survival.

Don't let other people charge you with being selfish when the consequences of acquiescing to their wishes causes you serious harm.

I made the commitment not to transition until the kids were through college.

I did tell my wife about myself before we married, she accepted things then, over the years she supported me, then later when I actually wanted to transition she changed her mind and was not as supportive.

But I was the one who decided to marry her, to have kids, etc. (there are so many different reasons we do things, some good reasons, some Bad reasons), I decided to wait until the kids were grown, I have transitioned now, luckily (I guess) my wife and I came to an understanding and are still together.

Quote from: Sarah Louise on January 02, 2013, 10:17:43 AM
I made the commitment not to transition until the kids were through college.

I did tell my wife about myself before we married, she accepted things then, over the years she supported me, then later when I actually wanted to transition she changed her mind and was not as supportive.

But I was the one who decided to marry her, to have kids, etc. (there are so many different reasons we do things, some good reasons, some Bad reasons), I decided to wait until the kids were grown, I have transitioned now, luckily (I guess) my wife and I came to an understanding and are still together.

My ex and I agree that I would not to transition until the kids were adolescents.

I did tell my wife about myself long before we married when we were just plain co-workers. She not only fully accepted things but even encourge further expression. Then, over the years the encouragement turned into tolerance, then later when I actually wanted to transition she changed her mind and was not as supportive but brutaly hostile.

My kids who knew all along and live with me are just peachy

Quote from: girl you look fierce on January 02, 2013, 10:07:13 AM
Except when you chose to enter a marriage as a man, to me it seems like you promised someone else food for life, but when it got a little hard you stole it all for yourself and let them starve. 

The vows say man and wife, you make a promise.  I know people would say life happens regardless of vows but god, the poor wives.  I'm so sick of hearing this story over and over again, I wish I could block these threads.  I feel like I can hardly visit Susan's anymore without another horror story of a poor woman who was lied to all her marriage, and then everybody responds to it like it's ok cause they did it to their wife and/or children too and they wanna ease their guilt.

If I married my bf and built my life around our relationship and several years in he took that all away from me and crushed that identity.... I would want to drive off a cliff too.  :-\

I totally understand how you feel

I never told my ex about my feelings but we got married. When we got married I pushed those feelings aside because I made a vow to her. I take the covenant of marriage very seriously.

I transitioned because she left me ( I would not attend a holiness church with her). It had nothing to do with transition. But yes, I hear way too many stories of trans people coming out to their wives AFTER they got married...I'm sorry...butno one should EVER make the wives feel or sound like the bad guys in this because they are the innocent ones...I don't care how angry they are. When they married their husbands they weren't asking or wasn't ready for theirworld to be turned upside down...these important life decisions need to be ironed out before getting married.

If she knew about the trans feelings before marriage then the wife knew what she was getting into.

And telling the wife when she's pregnant and right after she gave birth is just beyond my level of comprehension.

Am I misreading the original post and her follow-up? Both of them seem to say that she had no idea about being trans until her wife was 3 months pregnant. That means she didn't wait for the worst moment to bring it up and she didn't marry and get her pregnant while knowing either. The timing was bad and she jumped the gun by immediately bringing it up without thinking it through first, but I didn't get that she intentionally withheld that information. I got the feeling the exact opposite was true.

In the very beginning of her post she stated she had these feelings long before marriage page 3

Annah, Peky, and Sarah, I really just have to say to you, wow you are amazing women & truly selfless parents!
And to Gemma, again I hope your family can find their way together.

Just a reminder to everyone posting in the topic, please keep the discussion civil.

We have had to remove a few posts.  This is an important topic.  Thanks.

Kia Ora,

::) The pressure cooker known as gender dysphoria as a habit of letting off steam at the most inappropriate times...However some are able to keep a lid on it longer than others...

BTW Jamie, it would seem, Civil is never around when you need her ...But her sister Anger is always ready to jump in !

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Gemma_D on December 30, 2012, 05:06:39 PM
I initially 'came out' in a moment of confusion, attempting to be open and communicative. I had just started having confusing feelings and thought it best to talk it through, I thought they would just pass. Obviously that failed. I never married or had a child to 'fix me' as I didn't know there was anything to fix.

I must either be tired or reading the wrong post. This statement, particularly the bold section, coupled with the statement on the first post about only having known for 8 months still makes me think she had no idea about this until during the pregnancy.

Quote from: spring0721 on January 02, 2013, 03:44:08 PM
Annah, Peky, and Sarah, I really just have to say to you, wow you are amazing women & truly selfless parents!
And to Gemma, again I hope your family can find their way together.

Thank you Spring!!

What I would do knowing what I know if I could go back to the past? I would be more honest, less arrogant, but as far as the marring and the kids, so yeah I would do it all over again.


Sometimes I see the younger TS, they get their puberty blockers, early HRT and SRS, and wow, just wow...I am dieing with envy...here I am stuck in this old, chubby body with a deep voice...but then I smile and say: "good for them" ... but then I think...they still will not be able to bear kids of their own...and just like me and you they will always have to live with that nagging past...

So, at the end...poor wives...poor parents...poor siblings...poor children...they all did not ask to have us for husbands, fathers, brothers, and sons...

and so we go on with this "hole" in our souls for having caused so much pain and despair...How selfish of me my God to want to be myself so bad as to ignore the pleas of those who love me!!!

How can I fix it of God? Is there enough penitence out there for me to fulfill? Or should I just take the swift escape of oblivion and join the other fallen angels?

Quote from: peky on January 02, 2013, 07:50:44 PM

So, at the end...poor wives...poor parents...poor siblings...poor children...they all did not ask to have us for husbands, fathers, brothers, and sons...

and so we go on with this "hole" in our souls for having caused so much pain and despair...How selfish of me my God to want to be myself so bad as to ignore the pleas of those who love me!!!

How can I fix it of God? Is there enough penitence out there for me to fulfill? Or should I just take the swift escape of oblivion and join the other fallen angels?

Thank you Peky. it is hard to think what will happen to all the people I love when I come out. Even worst is how they would feel if I refused to confront my problems and took the easy way out. I'm still grappling with those questions, but I know that I would rather be here to console them.

Kia Ora,

Time heals all wounds ! Regrets can make them fester !

Even though one might re-live the event/experience again and again in ones mind, no matter how hard one would like to, they can never go back to change it, but they can change how they think about their future...

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Dahlia on December 30, 2012, 06:25:52 AM
Conceiving a baby as a cisman is the most masculine thing a cisman can do in his life.

So, if you feel you're a woman then how can you live with that?

Um...I am a man, who gave birth twice.

Does not make me any less a man.

And I love my children.

Live with it just fine.

Just saying.

OP, I feel you. I told my now ex three weeks after our son's first birthday, right before Thanksgiving. It was not pretty.

I would try and remember the hormonal changes she is going through right now. You both are suffering. Unfortunatelty, hormones after pregmancy and childbirth can lead to depression and aggression, and lots of regretful reactions.

Time is needed for both of you. Try to support her and your child, as best you can, without compromising yourself.

It can ne done...it just takes time.

Quote from: Dahlia on December 30, 2012, 06:25:52 AM
Conceiving a baby as a cisman is the most masculine thing a cisman can do in his life.

So, if you feel you're a woman then how can you live with that?

As someone who has three children of my own from the way I conceived them (as a male), I totally disagree with your comment.

I am a woman. I have three children that I helped conceive as a man and I am just as much as a woman today.

Also, I am sure the transman who got pregnant to carry a baby would disagree with you too

So, no. Having a baby as a cismale is not the most masculine thing one can do. Masculinity is what is determined in the eyes of the beholder. What is the pinnacle of masculinity for you is not the pinnacle of masculinity for others.

I am really surprised by a lot of these posts. The anger poured on the idea of a TG coming out after marriage and children, as though all transgendered folk have foreknowledge of their condition. News flash: a great many of us bury and repress and deny our feelings until well into our lives, including marriage and children. Is this really news to people? Not all of us experience our gender issues in the same ways, and coming to awareness of it can happen in a thousand different forms.

I have nothing but sympathy for you, Gemma. This sucks for both you, and your wife. But what also sucks is the judgement that can be heaped upon a later-in-life transsexual. The young ones have it easy, having not established roots that may have to be ripped out of the ground. As an older one myself, I wish I had come to awareness of this earlier in life, but that was just not the case, and such as it is for a great many.

Quote from: TanaSilver on January 02, 2013, 11:43:24 PM
I am really surprised by a lot of these posts. The anger poured on the idea of a TG coming out after marriage and children, as though all transgendered folk have foreknowledge of their condition. News flash: a great many of us bury and repress and deny our feelings until well into our lives, including marriage and children. Is this really news to people? Not all of us experience our gender issues in the same ways, and coming to awareness of it can happen in a thousand different forms.

I have nothing but sympathy for you, Gemma. This sucks for both you, and your wife. But what also sucks is the judgement that can be heaped upon a later-in-life transsexual. The young ones have it easy, having not established roots that may have to be ripped out of the ground. As an older one myself, I wish I had come to awareness of this earlier in life, but that was just not the case, and such as it is for a great many.

I knew I was a broken human.. And because of this, I avoided situations that might end in marriage or children - I knew I'd fall in a heap at some point and was not prepared to put any one else through my crap.

That said, I do have some sympathy for the OP, but I will reiterate the comment that the OP's timing sucked...

Quote from: peky on January 02, 2013, 07:50:44 PM
and you they will always have to live with that nagging past...

So, at the end...poor wives...poor parents...poor siblings...poor children...they all did not ask to have us for husbands, fathers, brothers, and sons...

I've read this kind of stories from MTF who have been married several times before coming out over and over again...sometimes even bitter and complaining about non accepting ex wives who didn't know before marriage.

The response of other MTF on this kind of stories is like 'no true love' from the wife that is...but how can you truly love a husband who turns out to be a virtual stranger/mtf you happen to be married to and  who is the 'sperm donor' of your children?

Quote from: Dahlia on January 03, 2013, 02:58:26 AM
I've read this kind of stories from MTF who have been married several times before coming out over and over again...sometimes even bitter and complaining about non accepting ex wives who didn't know before marriage.

The response of other MTF on this kind of stories is like 'no true love' from the wife that is...but how can you truly love a husband who turns out to be a virtual stranger/mtf you happen to be married to and  who is the 'sperm donor' of your children?

Please read my reply # 62 so you can get the context of what I was trying to convey; which was that even when you told your wife before engagement, not only the Tg person can change his/her mind but so does the spouse.

In my case, she left me with 5 hungry and heart broken kids, a house in shambles, and a pile of debts. At that time I had not started any transition steps; I really do not know what precipitated her abandonment, and after rebuilding my home, the lives of my kids, and the finances, frankly I do not care to know! You know why? it would not make any difference, OK?

My post #  was written in a moment that I was overtaken by a sense of poetic spell, something that a woman of science seldom happen.



I guess another possible ending-scenario would be: "sorry I had to choose between you and a bullet but I choose to live"

Quote from: Emelye on January 02, 2013, 09:49:08 AM
I read once that the selfishness of transitioning is the same as the selfishness of eating - we help ourselves to survive by doing it.  I agree.  I think being selfish when you have a viable choice to do otherwise is a problem but when all the options are bad then it's hardly selfish to choose the one that adds to physical, mental and emotional survival.

This pinpoints for me why I so wish we would stop referring to transition as selfishness. It's true, in the confrontationally literal, Richard Dawkins' "lets sell a book" sense (i.e. why else did he title his book The Selfish Gene if not because it was attention-getting and also true in the most literal sense?).

Breathing is a selfish act too. But it really winds up feeding into something that often spills over into a sort of self-flagellation. Then again, in some ways I suppose it also affirms (at least among (typo!) M2Fs) our sense of female identity, since this sort of condemnation of selfish acts is very common in ciswomen's dialogues surrounding personal sacrifice for family, children and other aspects of female identity that society at large tends to endorse?

I haven't done my introduction yet, and I also haven't slept well, so I'll resist the temptation to flesh out the novella-length essay I'm tempted to improvise after reading as much of this thread as I have to this point.

Instead, let me echo that while my own story is very different, had I told it in shorthand the way Gemma told hers, I might have sparked a similar reaction. Heather (who commented a few posts earlier than Emelye's) already knows much of my story. It's not all that different than hers, though I could easily recast it to show myself in  a terribly unflattering light.  I knew, after all, from a very early age that I identified as female. Looked at from at least one POV, I chose to marry with that knowledge in myself, in part because I tried to rationalize that, by marrying a woman in a high-pressure profession, I would be able to (and in fact did) manage to negotiate and manipulate the situation so that I could become as close to a full-time mom to my own biological kids as is possible given the current state of options for transwomen.

Granted, I had made most or all of this clear to my spouse years before her first pregnancy, so she was an informed partner in this. On the other hand, it became clear too that she was in denial about how profound my dysphoria was, and it's very likely that I wasn't as clear about that as I could have been, had I not been trying to frame things from just about any angle but the one that was most obvious to me.

Being a mom is a central part of my sense of what being a woman is about. I put off transition in part because a therapist convinced me that coming out to young children could be a bad idea.  Mine were 8 and 6 when my spouse asked for a divorce, though "blackmail" might be a more accurate way of describing it, the threats to misrepresent matters only she and I were witnesses to only came when I made it clear to her that I most certainly did not want to separate. The main reason I don't use that term is because she's still the person I am most attached to romantically, and I still think some day she might actually come to identify as lesbian, hopeless romantic that I am.  In defense of my POV, she did at one point say to a group of her childhood friends (in my presence) that she really wishes she were a lesbian.

When she pressed for divorce, she made it clear she'd be looking for a man to fall in love with, and yet, 10 years later, she remains single and stopped dating after only a few years of unsatisfying experiences with men who couldn't give her what she desired. Who's to say what the future holds? If she had found someone I think I might have managed to move on by now.

Right now, though, the added irony is that my eldest has been coming out as F2M (he's been going by an ambiguous name and insisting on use of male pronouns since before the start of the current school year... entering his gap year program under the new identity. He had his first appointment with a therapist for gender identity issues just yesterday, and I'll be driving him to a second appointment on Monday.

I could tell some very unflattering stories about how I came out most fully to my spouse, and I could make them sound horrible, partly because I do fault myself for how I handled things.

On the other hand, I already knew who I was and the gender I identified with... my "impulsiveness" could almost as easily be described as an act of desperation, trying to get something obvious through to someone who was seemingly being intentionally dense. My memories are of growing up with most people assuming I was gay, and me letting them think that, since to clarify the situation more specifically didn't seem like it was likely to improve my social status in any way.  It astounded me that my spouse didn't see that, but that blindness was also part of the reason she was the only woman I have ever had sex with... it was much easier to make mental adjustments in my mind that allowed me to hang onto my sense of womanliness if my partner was almost as clueless as most of the men I have ever known.

The point, and I think several have already touched on this, is  that we each come to this along a slightly different path, one that is influenced by how we were raised, how much we were able to accept ourselves along the way, and also based on the nature (and neediness) of those in our lives we might be seen as having "deceived."

In my experience, such deception is very rarely a one-way street, and it's not particularly wise to judge someone until you know the full story, and have some basis for taking a look at things from their perspective.

If I had acted with perfect integrity, I might well have had my brain burned out... they did use ECT back when I would have been coming out to my parents, a lot more often than they prescribed testosterone inhibitors to pre-teens. Or, coming out in my teens I might have fallen to AIDS like so many of my childhood friends did, since most likely I would have entered sex work at the peak of when there was almost no effective treatment available for those who were HIV positive... in fact, I was reaching prime sex trade years right around the time that HIV had yet to be identified as the underlying agent of the syndrome and the epidemic.

As it stands, one of the small mercies in this is that my son is a much more courageous and direct person than I am, and he has in many ways given me the strength and resolve to come out to those I've known for many years behind a kind of masque... in part because I can see how his dysphoria is affecting him, his moods, and filling him with suicidal thoughts that, blessedly, he has always been strong enough to come out and talk about, rather than shut down and be tempted to act upon.  At this point, I just couldn't see NOT coming out, whatever difficulties and compromises might lie ahead for me, trying to transition as my age.

PS: Thanks for the affirmations. I think I've lived a charmed life in many ways (not so much in some others) that I can manage not to get lost in my own subjectivity. I try not to judge harshly when others don't manage to do so.  Rather than offer apologies when our own issues seep out and catch fire, I'd be interested, for those who are able, whenever that might be, if they were to share some insights over time about where their particular outbursts happened to originate. I say this mainly in the hope that such sharing of background and experience might offer more insight and understanding to those, like Gemma who come here, maybe as their first contact with other transwomen, to find themselves on the hot end of the flame, potentially thinking (mistakenly in most cases) that they were the cause of the outburst, when in most cases it came from somewhere or something else in the life of the transwoman (or less  often, the transman) who was the source of the fire.

I'm quite stunned and feel actually bad again against myself, by the comments in this thread (should have not read this) and my heart goes for Gemma...and of course her wife and baby. Neither of the _three_ asked for this. If ->-bleeped-<- is something that you ask for, I'm sorry, I want to cancel my order thank you.

I've fought against myself for 15 years and unfortunately I'm at the end of the road as pretending male. Met my current girlfriend 10 years ago (the only one that I ever had). Now that I've come out of the closet for her, I feel really bad, as if I've actually destroyed her life too...along with mine, for torturing myself for 15 years.

A lot of comments from Gemmas wife are the same that I got yelled against my face. Thankfully we don't have children, although I've been terrified the past 10 years, that accident happens.

Yeah, timing wasn't perfect for Gemma, but then again, when it would be? When would have been the perfect time?

I will remember my grandmothers advice till the day I die: "You cannot live your life for anybody else. It's your only life and you only need to live it".

Quote from: Elspeth on January 04, 2013, 10:18:19 AM
The point, and I think several have already touched on this, is  that we each come to this along a slightly different path, one that is influenced by how we were raised, how much we were able to accept ourselves along the way, and also bases on the nature and neediness of those in our lives we might be seen as having "deceived."

Truly excellent and mature post Elspeth, from top to bottom, and one this thread sorely needed I think. I particularly liked the statement I quoted above, which is something I think trans folk need to keep in mind when dealing with each other. Sometimes I notice that there is a tendency to fall into a logical fallacy of "My experience is THE experience" in being trans, when in fact there are huge variances in how it manifests in different lives and how it is dealt with. Despite all of our commonalities and shared experiences, I think it's these differences that help keep the community divided.

Regardless of those differences, some things are true: being transgendered is a nightmare to deal with in this world, there are no easy answers or solutions, and for some of us the point at which we come out cannot be planned since it just explodes upon us when the desperation becomes too great (I fall into this category).

Quote from: TanaSilver on January 04, 2013, 02:03:14 PM
Truly excellent and mature post Elspeth, from top to bottom, and one this thread sorely needed I think. I particularly liked the statement I quoted above, which is something I think trans folk need to keep in mind when dealing with each other. Sometimes I notice that there is a tendency to fall into a logical fallacy of "My experience is THE experience" in being trans, when in fact there are huge variances in how it manifests in different lives and how it is dealt with. Despite all of our commonalities and shared experiences, I think it's these differences that help keep the community divided.

Regardless of those differences, some things are true: being transgendered is a nightmare to deal with in this world, there are no easy answers or solutions, and for some of us the point at which we come out cannot be planned since it just explodes upon us when the desperation becomes too great (I fall into this category).

I second this thanks to Elspeth and welcome her to Susan's Place forums, albeit as a relative newbie myself.

As my earlier post in this thread tried to say, this trans life is always very hard, almost impossible to plan for, and pointless to second guess. I would hope what we could do in a forum like this is to support and encourage one another, and learn from one another's successes and failures. There are few enough places that a trans person can find compassion, understanding, and emotional support, it pains me when I see members of my community becoming casualties from "friendly fire."

I also recognize that sometimes a posting will be made that seems like an unreasonable attack, and may in fact be the result of personal angst that person is undergoing in their own lives. We -- more than most people -- sometimes experience unbelievable levels of stress, fear, and heartache, it is no surprise that these feelings sometimes spill over where they are not deserved.

Be strong, find joy, and love others every chance you get.

Cheers!

Over the year and a half since posting, this thread has cropped up in my thoughts occasionally and always nagged at me.

I want to say a few things about this, this probably wont improve some people's opinions of me but I need to put this to rest.

When I created the OP I had just come out of a very intense discussion and was a total mess. I had been falling apart for weeks, my job was at risk because my performance was slipping, home life was miserable for everyone. That first post was typed through tears on a phone. Editing, and filling in all the blanks were probably beyond me at that point. The responses I got shocked me.

Did I need a shake? Yeah, in all honesty I did.

Should I have been told I was barely better than pond scum? No, I absolutely should not.

I think certain people were able to understand there was more to the story, and even when I came back and tried to clear things up I didn't necessarily explain everything. I was just trying to defend myself because I felt I needed to.

In brief: I'm now transitioning, and separating from my wife. I will hopefully be full-time in a few weeks. We are getting on better now than we were when trying to fight through this. We are still living together for the moment and doing everything to put our son first, to make sure he has the best possible upbringing. Abandoning my family was never, ever something I would consider. Since sorting my head out I am a damn good parent (not perfect) and far better than I would have ever been if I continued on the path I was on, the path I committed to more strongly than ever out of fear, shame and guilt last January. The comments here didn't make me go back into denial, but they certainly didn't help.

I honestly believe beginning transition before our son is old enough to understand what is happening is better than repressing, and bringing him up in a family with two unhappy parents in some misguided attempt to protect him. I know this is not a *perfect* situation by any means, but it's the best we can do. In fact, my wife has met someone else who is great with our son so he actually has even more people around him that care for him than before. Eventually, I will move out to somewhere very close by so that I have as much contact with my boy as possible.

I want to suggest one thing, if something along these lines ever comes up again. Please THINK of the mental state of the poster before you start attacking like some of you did. Criticism is fine, but the thing that keeps making me think of this thread is this... What if I was someone who had a tendency towards self harm or suicidal thoughts? We all know the stats for trans people. I did think about it after reading how I was sub-human, luckily I'm a coward and would probably never be able to bring myself to do it. Someone a bit braver (or a bit more desperate) might not be around any more.

I am annoyed at myself that I was such a mess that I actually came back and said 'thank you' for the abuse I received. I think this post is the only way I can come to terms with that.

This might seem to some like opening old wounds, for me it's closure. Maybe this will be deleted, maybe I'll be banned. I don't really mind. I have real-world support and haven't really been back here since this all happened. I'm actually looking at getting into helping others as I get more involved in a nearby support group. One of the things that I'm learning is when people need tough love or gentle support, and it's not always the one they ask for at the time.

For those of you that tried to help (including those that were critical without being insulting or superior) thank you so much.

I have to end this here.. my son is shouting for his dinner :)

Take Care,
Gemma

Quote from: Dahlia on January 03, 2013, 02:58:26 AM
The response of other MTF on this kind of stories is like 'no true love' from the wife that is...but how can you truly love a husband who turns out to be a virtual stranger/mtf you happen to be married to and  who is the 'sperm donor' of your children?

Dahlia

While we have managed to save and to strengthen our marriage I initiated separation 3 times and, as you said justified this on the basis that my wife had stopped loving and understanding me, that the love had gone and my life partner/fellow traveller was no longer invested in me or in our relationship.  In my case I really believed at the time, call it romantic love, stupidity, naïveté etc, that if my wife really loved me, that she would know who I was, would appreciate me and remain committed to me.   Only after many, many years did I understand that partners don't walk in lock step, they don't have unlimited empathy, understanding or prescience.  In effect, if I didn't understand me, how could she? If I didn't communicate, if I didn't relate or share, how could she know, listen, care or support?  Simple really, but I just didn't get this.  If my relationship wasn't working, it must be because she no longer loved me, perhaps never had loved me, and wasn't invested in our relationship.

In the first counselling I understood that my wife was focused on our family, our home and her career, that there wasn't any time left,  for her,  never mind for me.   Accepting this, kept us together for a while, but as dysphoria escalated I felt more and more disconnected, and less and less understood or appreciated.  It really started to feel that she had married me for security, support and to enable her to have the family she had dreamt of.  The question which I kept asking was, just what is in this for me?

Another separation, more counselling - this time both 'gender' and relationship.  The gender counselling reflected the state of current understanding - they first looked at my body, said I would 'never pass' and told me to deal with it by cross dressing!  (I was shocked as I hadn't even considered the possibility that I could be TS, I thought that I had a XD fetish!).  The counsellor said that I was trying to engender my marriage as my wife was unavailable emotionally ...  Anyway little real progress.

Several years later I sought another gender therapist and I was diagnosed as TG, most likely MTF.  HRT,FAS (andro or less aggressive FFS) and hair removal followed, but growth and understanding didn't occur until I had authentic and honest conversations with myself, my therapist, endo, counsellor and wife.  Realising that all I could really work on was myself, helped a lot.  This stopped me blaming my wife for changing and for no longer appearing to commit to our relationship.  Then I started showing her that I cared about her and the family, in effect that I was not as selfish or self focused as I had become.

More recently I have finally got to grips with my identity and gained an insight into what works best for me and for us.  I identify as non binary with an MTA trajectory - each experience, each day is now an opportunity for further growth and acceptance.  Our relationship and our marriage  is stronger than ever.  My wife says that I am the nicest that I haver been and that while scared when I first came out to her, has 'chosen us' rather than separate lives.

Sorry for the ramble but even without also sharing the dozens of defining interactions, anger, hurt, broken dreams, disappointments etc my learning is remarkably simple.  I should not have sought to blame but rather should have sought to 'walk the talk' ie if I want to be understood, I first need to understand myself and then seek to understand and to appreciate my wife.

Aisla

Quote from: Gemma_D on June 21, 2014, 11:37:54 AM
Over the year and a half since posting, this thread has cropped up in my thoughts occasionally and always nagged at me.

I want to say a few things about this, this probably wont improve some people's opinions of me but I need to put this to rest.

When I created the OP I had just come out of a very intense discussion and was a total mess. I had been falling apart for weeks, my job was at risk because my performance was slipping, home life was miserable for everyone. That first post was typed through tears on a phone. Editing, and filling in all the blanks were probably beyond me at that point. The responses I got shocked me.

Did I need a shake? Yeah, in all honesty I did.

Should I have been told I was barely better than pond scum? No, I absolutely should not.

I think certain people were able to understand there was more to the story, and even when I came back and tried to clear things up I didn't necessarily explain everything. I was just trying to defend myself because I felt I needed to.

In brief: I'm now transitioning, and separating from my wife. I will hopefully be full-time in a few weeks. We are getting on better now than we were when trying to fight through this. We are still living together for the moment and doing everything to put our son first, to make sure he has the best possible upbringing. Abandoning my family was never, ever something I would consider. Since sorting my head out I am a damn good parent (not perfect) and far better than I would have ever been if I continued on the path I was on, the path I committed to more strongly than ever out of fear, shame and guilt last January.

I want to suggest one thing, if something along these lines ever comes up again. Please THINK of the mental state of the poster before you start attacking like some of you did. Criticism is fine, but the thing that keeps making me think of this thread is this... What if I was someone who had a tendency towards self harm or suicidal thoughts? We all know the stats for trans people. I did think about it after reading how I was sub-human, luckily I'm a coward and would probably never be able to bring myself to do it. Someone a bit braver (or a bit more desperate) might not be around any more.

I am annoyed at myself that I was such a mess that I actually came back and said 'thank you' for the abuse I received. I think this post is the only way I can come to terms with that.

This might seem to some like opening old wounds, for me it's closure. Maybe this will be deleted, maybe I'll be banned. I don't really mind. I have real-world support and haven't really been back here since this all happened. I'm actually looking at getting into helping others as I get more involved in a nearby support group. One of the things that I'm learning is when people need tough love or gentle support, and it's not always the one they ask for at the time.

I have to end this here.. my son is shouting for his dinner :)

Take Care,
Gemma

GemmaD

I am so sorry that you experienced what you did.  I am glad that you and your family are well and in such a good place.

I wish you all the very best and agree with you that advice and criticism needs to be thoughtfully given.  Many of us have been hurt by what we perceived, but may not have been meant, as unhelpful or damaging comments or criticism. 

On this forum we expose and share our deepest fears and dreams.  Listening and respecting each other is key to maintaining a safe and supportive environment.  Our narratives and our situations vary, accepting and honouring this is important.

Gemma, thank you for being with us and for contributing to this forum.  Your story and authenticity are inspiring.    Thank you for continuing to support and to care for our community.  Please  don't be a stranger.

Safe travels

Aisla