Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Ok I don't wish to offend any of the female to male crowd here (NOT my intent).

But it pisses me off greatly that a woman can dress anyway she damn well wants and not on iota of downside will occur.

But if a man wears a dress, he is immediately either queer, a cross dresser, a freak, all of the above, but sure isn't going to be mistaken for a woman cursed to be in a male form that's for damn sure.

But a woman in female cut pants, is, well, just a woman in female cut pants, as if, well, it's just women's jeans you know and why are those weird?

But pants is a male form of attire no matter how you look at it. And it is just not considered odd for women to wear pants any more.

Dresses and skirts and gowns are female attire and they are not shared with men under any manner.

And it pisses me off.

Ok and I am also jealous of all the men that have found themselves to be stuck in female forms and really, there really is no downside to cutting your hair any way you wish, bald if you wish, zero make up just makes them mistaken as 'natural', and there isn't an article of clothing that will turn an eye. Sure if the person is in a body that is an erection magnet, it might be difficult to be mistaken as a 'guy'. But I'd likely rather be drop dead gorgeous and trying to be mistaken as manly, then basically ruggedly manly and trying to be mistaken as female.

Because 'oh you are a female' is not going to be uttered quite the same as 'oh you are a male' that's for sure.
'Sorry miss we don't allow women in here', is sure not the same as 'Hey you freak, that's for women only'.

Thanks to a neck size that won't fit (if you look at my neck size while I am sitting and my height in not apparent, I go from being short at 5'7" to easy to be thought of as 6'4" and built like a wall on a football line), which does such a great job of ruining most of my desire to even try to picture myself in a wig and something attractive. my neck is greater than most persons waist size.

Thank women's lib.  :laugh:

Yes, it sucks. Sometimes I wish men's stuff came in more colors. Like glasses and shoes. Always eyeing the pale blue suede in the women's section. It's a shame.

Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on January 03, 2013, 07:23:07 AM

Thanks to a neck size that won't fit which does such a great job of ruining most of my desire to even try to picture myself in a wig and something attractive. my neck is greater than most persons waist size.

I know this.... I'm 6 foot with a neck diameter of 17 inches. Most of my shirts are to big for me only because anything that fits properly I can't button up the collar for a tie. I also have a massive amount of Lats, delts and trap (muscle groups... upper back, shoulders and neck respectively) build up from pounding poles by hand and climbing ladders (spent a bit of time in construction).

I also have the classic Homer Simpson look going on from inactivity which isn't helping my minds eye any...

But I do understand where your coming from on the 'what clothing we wear' concept. But then again... depending on the social norm for some women... leaving the house in "scrubs" and no makeup could be viewed as lazy and disrespectful. 


Oh and the more colors thing....

My area has been plagued with "earth tones" for guys clothing... I mean... drab anyone?

Quote from: LivingInGrey on January 03, 2013, 07:45:59 AM


Oh and the more colors thing....

My area has been plagued with "earth tones" for guys clothing... I mean... drab anyone?

Ouch. Thank god we at least have navy blue and red for guys here.  :laugh:

Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on January 03, 2013, 07:23:07 AM
But it pisses me off greatly that a woman can dress anyway she damn well wants and not on iota of downside will occur.

But if a man wears a dress, he is immediately either queer, a cross dresser, a freak, all of the above, but sure isn't going to be mistaken for a woman cursed to be in a male form that's for damn sure.

I hear you, sister.

Though as F.A. points out, used to be true for women as well, but they fought hard for the right to dress as they please, whereas those generations of cis males are perfectly content to continue dressing as they have.

Still, in the end, both FtMs and MtFs face ostracism, censure, and the risk of violence from the narrow-minded, and acceptance and understanding from those who take the trouble to educate themselves.

Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on January 03, 2013, 07:23:07 AM
But it pisses me off greatly that a woman can dress anyway she damn well wants and not on iota of downside will occur.

It pisses me too.

Currently I'm trying to dress ass androgynous as possible.
And it's a quite big challenge to wear a skirt/dress and not looking too feminine.

I often dress like this
http://www.polyvore.com/outfit_for_university/set?id=47011453 (http://www.polyvore.com/outfit_for_university/set?id=47011453)
but yes.. to be able to wear these would be awesome
http://www.polyvore.com/cool_coat/set?id=67719295 (http://www.polyvore.com/cool_coat/set?id=67719295)

Quote from: Dweia on January 03, 2013, 08:07:51 AM
It pisses me too.

Currently I'm trying to dress ass androgynous as possible.
And it's a quite big challenge to wear a skirt/dress and not looking too feminine.

I often dress like this
http://www.polyvore.com/outfit_for_university/set?id=47011453 (http://www.polyvore.com/outfit_for_university/set?id=47011453)
but yes.. to be able to wear these would be awesome
http://www.polyvore.com/cool_coat/set?id=67719295 (http://www.polyvore.com/cool_coat/set?id=67719295)

ha... I'm lucky if I can pull off a good Steve Irwin let alone what you consider "androgynous" (what you linked as what you often dress like).

About the only reason I don't yell louder, is, well being stuck in a male form, I have at least not had to deal with the crap that females deal with.

I KNOW it sucks being a female in a female form being consider not equal to a male, and no amount of time seems to have changed that bias even if we supposedly have laws that do. And it must be a real pain to be male and stuck in a massively biased form too.

I mean a guy in a female form, caught out to be a female form, well abusing what society sees as a female gets you in serious crap. Because most males in male form will simply NOT tolerate people beating up what they see as females, even if they are still annoyingly biased males all the same. You won't get far being mean to a perceived female, even if the perceived female wishes to be treated as male.

But there is no sympathy coming to females caught out in male form. No one is going to come to your heroic aid, no outcries of unmanly behaviour for beating up the female in the male form. No one really cares if a 'freak' gets kicked around.

I just measured my current neck size LivingInGrey, 17 eh, must be nice to be so 'small' :) I have a 20 inch neck size. 21 if I want to be at least not choking when buttoned up. At least an assailant will need to pick a different means of attack though, good luck pretending you will be strangling me to death hehe. I wear T shirts exclusively as buttoning up a shirt means something expensively tailored. I rarely have t shirts buttoned at all as well. I like collars per se, but I am thinking of hunting out female cuts simply as they are more inclined to be more 'open' and might fit nicer.

Heck I am planning to start trying to buy more less manly and more feminine attire in general. I am sick of shorts that scream out 'old man'. I am sick of pants that are so baggy I could make a spare set of female cut legs out of the excess. The trouble is, I have a muscular upper leg mass and a short leg length. And women all seem to wear form fitting pants. I am wondering though if more of an athletic track pant type for woman might be more inclined to accommodate my upper leg while being a bit shorter in length.

My only saving grace, is in high heels, at 5'7" I am still just the height of a woman trying to be a little taller. I feel sad for guys at 6'+ trying to put on heels and not look like some sort of enigma, because even amazons are only so high in heels.

The gut I can get rid of (when I get some discipline and a diet), boobs can be faked, and I really don't need great big boobs :) (just something to make wearing a bra worth the effort), but I have had the neck since I was small, and it is a trait, not being over weight. I don't think there is anything I can do to change it much. I might be able to get down to an 18 with a serious drop in weight. Heck I had an incredible neck size back when I was a 145 pound teenager. The guys always chuckled how I could manage the hardest setting on the universal gym's neck exerciser as if the thing had no resistance at all.

I dream of being 150 again, of having a waist that can cope with female waist sizes in ordinary stores and being able to have a bust that doesn't just disappear into male pattern beer gut, but the neck will always be a challenge to find the ideal hair style to surround and hide it from view. Trouble is, I like pony tails and similar hair lifted up forms meant to take the hair AWAY from the neck dang it :)

I am not really in a hurry to buy any clothing that is in your face female (like a skirt) until I muster the needed courage to get a wig and find out if I can even marginally pass as female from the neck up. I think hair style is the main illusion setter. I am so used to everyone wearing jeans, male female, young old. I rarely see dresses and skirts not too frequently.

Boots, now THAT bothers me too. I love the look of female high boots. So many great fashions. I'd love to put on a skirt and something nice for nylons or tights and some great looking boots. But women have small feet. It will cost me a small fortune no doubt to put something nice on my feet. Because it will almost certainly need to be special order.

I have no beef with the cross dressing crowd, I am often quite impressed with their successes.

But, I can't help but wonder, are they trying too hard? Going too far to look too perfect?

My goal is to be standing in line at Tim Horton's ie NOT going to a fancy dinner, and be mistaken as just another female bundled up and waiting for an early morning coffee before work. Even if in truth I am only there to pause a walk with a hot chocolate before walking home.

I want to look like someone's mom, not a hot woman out on a date.

I want to look female, but, so ordinary that no one really looks at all. I'd rather look uninteresting, just not invisible thanks to being in male attire and thus considered just another guy.

I want to have a person standing near to smell my perfume and react with 'she smells nice' instead of 'hmm I smell perfume, but there are no women here'.

No offense taken - at least, not by this member of the FtM crowd. :)

And I sympathise with you; I've often said that it's one of life's great injustices that it is somewhat acceptable for a female-bodied person to wear traditionally masculine clothing (at least in our societies) but it's rarely or never OK for a male-bodied person to wear traditionally feminine clothing. I also believe it's grossly unfair that I got to be a 'tomboy', but almost nobody gets to be a 'tomgirl'. That's pathetic, it's unnecessary, and it sucks. If I ruled the world... etc.

If I may (and to echo the OP, no offense to MtFs is intended)...  I would like to add the perspective of someone who grew up female-bodied: there is a hell of a lot of downside that occurs, every single day, to women based on their choice of clothing. And most of it comes from other women.

You see, women constantly compare themselves to each other. I was going to say that they expect you to live up to their standards, but that's not quite it. Rather, they dearly hope you won't live up to their standards so they can imagine they are somehow 'better' than you. Wear the 'wrong' clothes, and you're a slut. Or frigid. Or hopelessly out-of-date. Or too poor. Or have no sense of colour co-ordination. Or whatever. Bottom line is: for some reason, society seems to think it has the right to judge women on every little detail of every choice they make.

Anyway... I blogged about this subject back in October here: http://ftmdiaries.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/private-person-vs-public-property.html (http://ftmdiaries.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/private-person-vs-public-property.html)

Personally, I think things have improved greatly over the last decade or two. Fashion is a lot more androgynous now, which is great for people who aren't comfortable at the extremes. But I do think that, in our society at least, the extremes are dresses (on the one side) and business suits (on the other). Society makes it difficult to be at either extreme if you don't fit the mould.

Also, please bear in mind that it's only very recently (the 1980s) that it became acceptable or normal for women to wear androgynous clothing, thanks to pioneers such as Annie Lennox. I'm old enough to remember when women were expected to wear dresses or skirts/blouses but wouldn't dare wear anything masculine. A woman in trousers was considered to be 'freakish' and could be socially ostracised as recently as the 1970s.

Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on January 03, 2013, 07:23:07 AM
Dresses and skirts and gowns are female attire and they are not shared with men under any manner.

I don't think Scotland got your memo.  :P

Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on January 03, 2013, 07:23:07 AM
Ok and I am also jealous of all the men that have found themselves to be stuck in female forms and really, there really is no downside to cutting your hair any way you wish, bald if you wish, zero make up just makes them mistaken as 'natural', and there isn't an article of clothing that will turn an eye. Sure if the person is in a body that is an erection magnet, it might be difficult to be mistaken as a 'guy'. But I'd likely rather be drop dead gorgeous and trying to be mistaken as manly, then basically ruggedly manly and trying to be mistaken as female.

Please, don't feel jealous of us. Yes, my hair is short and I haven't worn make-up for years. I'm drop-dead gorgeous and look much younger than my age. But there's no mistaking the fact that I have two 'X' chromosomes. As you will no doubt discover (if you haven't already done so), women are patronised and condescended on a regular basis. I have to try feeling 'manly' when people verbally pat me on the head wherever I go. Also, FtMs are men and MtFs are women - it's not about trying to be 'mistaken' for something. So instead of 'drop dead gorgeous and trying to be mistaken as manly', my experience is more like 'a man who battles to get anyone to take him seriously because he's shrimpy, looks drop-dead gorgeous and is mistaken as female'. Oh, and here's a great one: whilst presenting as female, try buying a car. Or buying some hardware. Or buying a computer game. Or calling up tech support. (Spoiler alert: they'll talk to you like you're an infant). Take it from me, the FtM grass isn't any greener than the MtF grass. There's nothing to be envied - on either side of the fence.

Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on January 03, 2013, 08:25:08 AM
Boots, now THAT bothers me too. I love the look of female high boots. So many great fashions. I'd love to put on a skirt and something nice for nylons or tights and some great looking boots. But women have small feet. It will cost me a small fortune no doubt to put something nice on my feet. Because it will almost certainly need to be special order.

I love boots too, but I can't wear them unless I wanted to cross-dress, and my dysphoria makes that impossible. Meanwhile, due to those unfortunate small feet you mentioned, I have to buy boys' shoes because practically nobody makes men's shoes in a UK size 4. :'(

Quote from: FTMDiaries on January 03, 2013, 10:42:33 AM
I don't think Scotland got your memo.  :P

Having owned and worn a kilt I can assure you there is very little that could be called feminine about it. It's akin to wearing barbed wire with a sign attached reading, 'I'm a dick but don't say it!'.

It was invented in the early 19th century in London as a stereotype Scotch garment. Essentially, based upon a plaid which was the traditional non-military garment all over Europe, especially for poorer people. Scotland, like so many societies went through a silly period of re-invention in the 19th century, hence the adoption of stories such as Walter Scott as apparent historical fact along with contrived notions about kilts and tartans.

Not so very many years ago, women who wore clothes befitting men would have suffered penalties, including being burned on a bonfire as a witch. That must have been a horrible way to die.

Women moved forward, mainly after WW2. Women in trousers was not unknown before then but generally associated with wealthier women wearing particularly 'feminine styles'. Before WW1, it would have been seen as vary daring and indicative of a disinterest in men. I've read reports of women in the American fronteer wearing trousers. Not sure how widespread it was though.

Men haven't moved very much. Self expression is more widespread of course. Especially in recent years, but too much is generally labeled pejoratively as Dandy.

Before the 60s, certainly for most of the 20th century, longer hair for men was almost unknown except for the every scruffy. I recall, in 1964, I was in Washington state and the Beatles were due to arrive in the US. There was a national news paper, I forget which one, published a picture of them to show their long hair. Underneath was the same pictute with bald heads super-imposed to show what they might look like without all that Hair.

If you look at the cover of their album Please Please me, that was the sort of length they had.

Now we have men with pony tails.

But sadly, self expression is still very restricted in clothes.

I have to say, my time wearing a skirt was the most liberating. The reasons may have been several. But I just felt so relaxed, as if I'd made it home.

Was it ever thus. I wrote this in an essay 50 years ago when I was 10.

But there is an upside. When I go out dressed I always wear a skirt or dress. That way there is no doubt about how I wish to be seen.

I'm ftm and I agree with this rant. I also agree that women have seen this as a liberation issue and have worked hard to wear what they want. Men, unfortunately, don't see the idea of dressing femme as a right. It is of course.

--Jay

May i point out way back in histroy men wore heels!

But yea it is unfair however blame for this falls on both how women in the past, were taught a man should be and, how men were taught that girls were inferior to them, thus dressing like them makes you inferior.

Sadly not much we can do on this.
But i say dress how you want and f*** what others think!

Okay, I don't really see many men criticizing women. Here's out it works. Women choose to dress to impress; the guys just don't complain when they do. No one forces a girl to wear a pretty dress or whatnot; they, once again, just don't have a problem when women choose to do so.  :P

Anyway, I LOVE dresses and boots. I honestly see traditional gender attire as the single greatest mistake in fashion ever. Take it from someone with balls that pants suck for male genitalia. Your fellas get squished and you have to move your worm to one side.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxZ4Dd1RZc0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxZ4Dd1RZc0)

Women have nothing there, so it makes more sense for them to wear pants and men to wear skirts. Food for thought.  ::)

Also, if wearing a skirt means that you are unmanly, then I only have one thing to say to you.... THIS... IS... SPARTA!!!!  :laugh:

Quote from: DianaP on January 03, 2013, 04:19:45 PM
Okay, I don't really see many men criticizing women. Here's out it works. Women choose to dress to impress; the guys just don't complain when they do. No one forces a girl to wear a pretty dress or whatnot; they, once again, just don't have a problem when women choose to do so.  :P

Anyway, I LOVE dresses and boots. I honestly see traditional gender attire as the single greatest mistake in fashion ever. Take it from someone with balls that pants suck for male genitalia. Your fellas get squished and you have to move your worm to one side.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxZ4Dd1RZc0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxZ4Dd1RZc0)

Women have nothing there, so it makes more sense for them to wear pants and men to wear skirts. Food for thought.  ::)

Also, if wearing a skirt means that you are unmanly, then I only have one thing to say to you.... THIS... IS... SPARTA!!!!  :laugh:

Dont go forget the scots! They even took it a step further. They went who needs undies i got a Kilt! Hell yea gotta love the scots!

Spartans never wore underwear, and neither do I.  :P  ;)

Quote from: DianaP on January 03, 2013, 04:19:45 PM

Anyway, I LOVE dresses and boots. I honestly see traditional gender attire as the single greatest mistake in fashion ever. Take it from someone with balls that pants suck for male genitalia. Your fellas get squished and you have to move your worm to one side.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxZ4Dd1RZc0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxZ4Dd1RZc0)

Women have nothing there, so it makes more sense for them to wear pants and men to wear skirts. Food for thought.  ::)

Hah Never thought of it that way. Excellent point.  :laugh:

My dear neice having seen my in a kilt then drew me in skirt, heels and with a handbag - she knows!!!!

Quote from: FTMDiaries on January 03, 2013, 10:42:33 AM
Anyway... I blogged about this subject back in October here: http://ftmdiaries.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/private-person-vs-public-property.html (http://ftmdiaries.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/private-person-vs-public-property.html)

Well, if it makes you feel better, I think you're just hanging with the wrong crowd. I read that blog, and I know a lot of men don't act like that.  :)

Quote from: Anna on January 03, 2013, 05:08:18 PM
My dear neice having seen my in a kilt then drew me in skirt, heels and with a handbag - she knows!!!!

They have a tendency to know though. Not a lot of point hiding very much.

Quote from: DianaP on January 03, 2013, 05:19:37 PM

Quote from: FTMDiaries on January 03, 2013, 10:42:33 AM
Anyway... I blogged about this subject back in October here: http://ftmdiaries.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/private-person-vs-public-property.html (http://ftmdiaries.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/private-person-vs-public-property.html)

Well, if it makes you feel better, I think you're just hanging with the wrong crowd. I read that blog, and I know a lot of men don't act like that.  :)

I agree. I never felt like that as a woman. I think it may be a cultural thing (I notice you're from South Africa?) However, I do agree on the headlines. Women in the public eye are more scrutinized for their looks than men in the same positions. Like Hillary Clinton, for example.

Oh well, definitely. Women are scrutinized for their looks. That's for sure. Men aren't, but they're still scrutinized. I can't tell you how many people have made fun of Justin Bieber because he wasn't "manly" enough. Whatever that means.  ???

Oh, FA, in case you were talking to me, I'm from South America, not South Africa. (Ecuador, to be specific).

Quote from: DianaP on January 03, 2013, 05:31:27 PM
Oh well, definitely. Women are scrutinized for their looks. That's for sure. Men aren't, but they're still scrutinized. I can't tell you how many people have made fun of Justin Bieber because he wasn't "manly" enough. Whatever that means.  ???

Oh, FA, in case you were talking to me, I'm from South America, not South Africa. (Ecuador, to be specific).

Oh no hon. FTMDiaries mentions South Africa in his blog.

This is one of those hotbed issues, but it seems to me the reasons are the way people view others as mating potential or rivals.

Quote from: spacial on January 03, 2013, 06:30:41 PM
This is one of those hotbed issues, but it seems to me the reasons are the way people view others as mating potential or rivals.

That's not an issue so much as a biological fact. There are tons of mating rituals throughout the animal kingdom to prove that one can be a good provider and give rise to good offspring. Humans just have really complicated ones.

Biologically engraved or not, it's still unfair.  :P

Some very superb replies, thanks to everyone.

But I was really impressed with the reply FTMDiaries gave (that mentioned the blog).

I hit sort of like a revelation. Perhaps I have been mistaking 'old fashioned' as being part of 'him' with my being cliche female, and it being me actually behaving atypical. I find myself often saying to myself 'for god's sake don't you know how you look?' in reply to persons I see.

I totally hate the pants half off the ass look on guys 'What were you never taught to dress?'.
I really hate seeing girls trying to cram too much into too little 'Come on woman, just admit it, you need to shop at the plus sized stores where they make clothes fit your shape properly and you clearly don't have the shape you think you have'.

I am always critiquing people that walk in the store or that I walk past.
The most drastic experience, this young girl (high school age I think) she walks past in a skirt while I was walking with the wife in opposite direction. A burst of wind and 'what the heck? that girl is not wearing panties, I KNOW what a female looks like down there and she was not covering any of it). It kinda shocked me to think a girl would walk around like that.
The wife didn't see the sight.
But I later asked some female friends online of my age, and it was 'oh yeah some days I just don't mind being bare assed under my dress or skirt when out in public'. Not that I have never done something rather bold as hell in the nudity realm, but I generally am alone and quite aware it is not generally acceptable :)

I guess I am also kind of critical on manner of attire in a female way (which I suppose is both reassuring in a way, as well as revealing something of myself I never likely saw correctly). I DO tend to be very judgemental on how I see persons dressed. And it sure looks like most guys just absolutely couldn't care less. Man it bothers me intensely seeing men 'hitch up their pants' especially when wearing a belt and I want to yell at them 'a belt is not a complicated device, yet you clearly don't know how to use it properly'. I hate guys that clearly need a belt. No mac, I really don't like seeing your ass crack. And I don't like seeing you pull up your pants every single time you stand up due to your pants being incapable of following you when you stand up.

I cringe when I wear the same shirt twice before washing it. I also feel awkward wearing two items of the same colour for fear they think I have not changed them. I hate wearing clothing that doesn't look in decent repair, so the fashion of girls wearing jeans all torn up and full of holes really annoys me.

I do think it is something of a female bashing preference, when women are held under a magnifying glass more so than men. Women are also marketed to on this basis. Men's departments are always small places as men just don't need as much. Heck I find it annoying walking past stores just for women's lingerie (which would never fit me) simply because I consider it unfair they have so much stuff for the tooth picks out there.

Oh my, are your referring to "sagging" when guys wear their pants to their knees? Honestly, I don't like that. I met a kid with an $800 belt, and he was still sagging while wearing it. No, it wasn't a typo. That belt cost eight hundred dollars... and he didn't even use it right.   :(

In reply to various comments... my blog does mention South Africa, but I haven't lived there since I returned to the UK in 1995, so my comments about the culture were pretty much tied up in British culture.

We are all individuals and I'm not suggesting for a second that everyone thinks the same way, but my blog post was about a pervading culture I see portrayed in the media and everyday life here in the UK. As DianaP said, women are scrutinised for their looks - to the extent that it sometimes seems that their looks are the only thing they have of value. And many women feel intense pressure to make sure they look good enough to be of value - hence the diet industry, the cosmetics industry, the fashion industry, the cosmetic surgery industry... all of which feed off of (and perpetuate) women's insecurities. Which means that despite the very real advances in women's rights over the past century, society still has a heck of a long way to go before we have true equality of the sexes.

Last night I read an article on the Daily Mail's website (which has since been removed!) about a female shop assistant who was (apparently) dismissed from a London fashion store because she didn't look good enough in the dress that is part of the company uniform. It's possible that her attitude was the real reason for her dismissal (she took offense at being told by the fashionista-in-charge that the dress didn't flatter her), but that's besides my point: the readers' comments under the article were vicious. Comment after comment, mostly from women, savagely criticised the young lady for her hairstyle, her facial expression, her choice of clothing, her weight (UK size 12/US size 8 - hardly an elephant!), the shape of her legs, her fashion sense - and they said they didn't blame the manager for firing her if she looked like that. (By the way, there was nothing objectively wrong with any of her features).

Holy cow.

It's unlikely that anyone would fire a man because of how much cellulite he might have on his thighs... so as I said in my blog: why does society think they have a right to scrutinise women so intensely, as if their appearance is the only thing they have of value? Yes, Bieber gets some criticism, but it's never as detailed or intense as what that poor shop assistant faced in yesterday's article.

For me, one of the great benefits of transitioning is that I don't have to subject myself to that intense scrutiny any more. I hated it and it's such a relief to be free from it.

Just a comment before I went FT I started to dress increasingly androgynously - well in female clothes-  the fashion here was  for leggings and sweater tops to above the knee, that is what I wore. I wore feminine shoes, not high heels but feminine. I had my nails done. I have worn ear rings for years. My face had been lasered already.

One day someone commented on my nails saying it was really good to see a guy wearing nail polish, as lots of the pop stars do (I think the Voice was on at the time and Seal wore nails).

I ended telling people I was TG which lead to me going FT. Another story.

What people said was, I didn't realise i just thought you were 'bohemian' and being yourself.

We worry too much.

Wear what you want, be yourself.

Just do it.

Quote from: FTMDiaries on January 04, 2013, 04:40:37 AM
It's unlikely that anyone would fire a man because of how much cellulite he might have on his thighs... so as I said in my blog: why does society think they have a right to scrutinise women so intensely, as if their appearance is the only thing they have of value?

Well, I agree that you'd probably never hear of a guy's thigh fat. However, I see that at least in my generation, the scrutiny of appearance is changing. Yay.  :icon_woowoo:

I can't find any point to disagree with FTMDiaries on this issue.

It's a sad reality that each group represses itself more than others.

Women seem to be more vociferous toward other women. Where another woman's appearance seems to fall short of how they see themselves, (rather than how they actually are!!!).

Men on the other hand seem to attack women who seem beyond their reach or men who they think they can dominate.

To this extent, it kinda reinforces Diana's observations in #25.

But I wonder how much of all of this is part of a need to conform to a group norm? I make that point because it seems so rare, but not unknown, for these people to repeat these things in a one to one conversation.

Quote from: spacial on January 04, 2013, 05:45:36 AM
It's a sad reality that each group represses itself more than others.

Women seem to be more vociferous toward other women. Where another woman's appearance seems to fall short of how they see themselves, (rather than how they actually are!!!).

I entirely agree - and this is something that really surprised me when I was growing up. I grew up in a society where women were just starting to fight for their rights. SA was a very sexist country back in the '70s and '80s so I was there when women's lib was taking off. I was taught that 'sisters are doing it for themselves'.

But I remember seeing news footage of the parts of the world where women are very much second-class citizens, and I used to think "as soon as they hear about women's liberation, they'll all band together to fight for their rights and they'll join us in a more enlightened age". But years passed, and nothing ever changed in those societies. I found this puzzling: surely they'd heard that women can have equal rights to men if they just join forces and demand them? But whenever some woman tried to improve their lot, other women would loudly protest that it's ridiculous (or sinful) to even suggest that women should be equal to men.

Eventually it dawned on me that it's not just the men who keep women 'in their place' in these societies, it is very much the women themselves who keep each other down. They don't want any other woman to get ideas above her station, because that would mean that the other woman is perceived as 'better', so they make darn sure they knock them down a peg or two whenever they get any bright ideas. I'm sure this is tied in with women comparing themselves to each other to make sure no other woman is in any way 'superior' to them - just like they do when they criticise each other's clothing.

It's heartbreaking to see, and nothing will ever change in these societies until the women's rights movement gains sufficient momentum that the ones who want change start to outnumber the ones who want to maintain the status quo.

Quote from: FTMDiaries on January 04, 2013, 08:33:00 AM
Eventually it dawned on me that it's not just the men who keep women 'in their place' in these societies, it is very much the women themselves who keep each other down.

I think we're seeing this in the United States as well. Congress is still heavily male, and we've never had a female president or vice president (both houses of congress are 83% male). A lot of the people who consistently vote for males over females are female themselves. Even among females, it seems like males are seen as better leaders. The equal rights amendment (to our constitution) failed decades ago because many women failed to support it.

Some of the recent comments have me thinking a lot now.

Is my behavior because I am more female than even I thought I was?

Is it possible that some males are more female than they realize and that some behavior is the same, but merely targeted differently?

I AM very critical of appearances. Does that make me more the female? Hard to say, because never having been in a female form, I was subjected to so much male dogma, that I have had a lot of crap to throw out too

But I also know, that while a male won't be all over you for fashion offenses, they sure recognize behavioral infractions.
A woman crying during a film is just being a woman, a man crying during a film has just announced he's gay.

God I hate high heels with a passion, yet I want to be able to wear them, but they don't make footwear I could wear at any rate so the matter is moot. Damn things only ruin your feet, all so your ass will look better from a viewing male's perspective, so basically we wear high hells all to satisfy a man's need to see our ass look better at the cost of our feet. Why are women still doing this?
I have been trying to find nice, feminine looking long distance walking friendly women's foot wear and I don't think they even exist. Do women routinely just not wear shoes meant to walk any distance in a skirt? I see women walking long distances, but, it's always in something either a fashion disaster, or foot killing in nature. I don't drive, and never will and I walk with a cane and could really use some nice shoes not designed to make me any more disabled.

I wish I had something to offer a bra. I understand how much women hate being unable to take off their bra. But I suppose most of them are at least grateful when they actually have something to put in one. Flat to a girl is pretty much the same as 2-3 inches long I would guess.
I know this much, I really wish they didn't make men's underwear WITHOUT the fly opening. Come on, I have never seen any need for it. When I actually need to go, it is simpler faster and easier to lower waistband and be done with it. Nothing so irritating than a hot day and your stuff insists on falling through the opening. A bra on a hot day is not the only thing bothering someone. I sure wish it was easier for me to get nicer fitting, better made underwear. But they sure don't have stores dedicated to the male form's under clothing needs. Several packs of cheap schlock underwear in the store is not my idea of great.

I have been thinking of at least fixing the undies situation. I wouldn't need to fret over the wife being annoyed seeing me in it. It is my norm to either be fully dressed at home, or wearing just a shirt at home. I'd be happier wearing something if it at least felt good. Nothing though, is going to make a whole lot of something feel good in the same way that a whole lot of nothing is unlikely to make wearing a bra seem thrilling.

Quote from: FTMDiaries on January 04, 2013, 08:33:00 AM
Eventually it dawned on me that it's not just the men who keep women 'in their place' in these societies, it is very much the women themselves who keep each other down. They don't want any other woman to get ideas above her station, because that would mean that the other woman is perceived as 'better', so they make darn sure they knock them down a peg or two whenever they get any bright ideas. I'm sure this is tied in with women comparing themselves to each other to make sure no other woman is in any way 'superior' to them - just like they do when they criticise each other's clothing.

This is one of the things I had to come to terms with as well.

In the 70s especially, I was so much in support of a number of movements toward liberation, so to speak.  I recall reading Animal Farm in the 60s and thinking it was a load. The Who sang a song, We Won't get Fooled Again where there was a line, The new boss, same as the old boss. Yet I chose to miss that bit!!

Liberation groups work best when they have a single issue. When they try to work past their sell by date they become more extreme, more ridiculous and even more oppressive than that which they replaced. Feminism is an example. Yet even now, with slogans such as All Men are Rapists and ideas promoting father daughter incest as conventional, not to mention the racial superiority, many remain implacable supporters. That is sad.

Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on January 04, 2013, 09:26:19 AM

God I hate high heels with a passion, yet I want to be able to wear them, but they don't make footwear I could wear at any rate so the matter is moot.

This was something which I used to back up. I could understand why single women wanted to make themselves attractive, but why would a married woman?

But then I realised, it isn't about attracting the attentions of men, it's about feeling confident enough to show off to the world that you're here.

It reminds me of something a headmistress once said to me when I was about 10, 'The only time it's acceptable to touch a girl is when you ask her and she says yes'.

Men wait until they are called.

When women don't know that, that is a shame, nay, a tragedy.

I feel things are going backward but maybe it is just the ebb and flow of things. But during the women's liberation movement people were more aware of the "keeping ourselves down" stuff. OTOH, I suppose just a small portion of the population was ever in this to begin with, and it needs time to filter thru the population.

I am still hearing about female newscasters and so on that aren't pretty enough, and I don't think they care so much about males (though I think they are also supposed to be telegenic). Ever see a slightly overweight female weather person, as I don't think I have?

--Jay

Quote from: spacial on January 03, 2013, 05:25:26 PM
They have a tendency to know though. Not a lot of point hiding very much.

Yes but how do they know? How come almost everyone I meet seems to guess this about me except me? I don't think I have said anything consciously to anyone about this since I was 8.

Besides heels & a handbag? That's not my style at all - how rude. I'm a bohemian arty woman of adventure not some 7ft corporate beatch.

Quote from: FTMDiaries on January 04, 2013, 04:40:37 AM
Last night I read an article on the Daily Mail's website (which has since been removed!) ... the readers' comments under the article were vicious.

Erm. It was the Daily Heil. What more needs to be said?

Quote from: Anna on January 04, 2013, 01:25:03 PM
Yes but how do they know? How come almost everyone I meet seems to guess this about me except me? I don't think I have said anything consciously to anyone about this since I was 8.

Besides heels & a handbag? That's not my style at all - how rude. I'm a bohemian arty woman of adventure not some 7ft corporate beatch.

You know something? Enjoy the ride. Don't ask why. All that matters is that you'll be reasonably safe.

I'm content with not being physically attacked. I don't really worry too much about being ignored. I'm a kinda lone type, so that isn't an issue. But all the hiding I've ever done has been out of fear of being hurt.

If you're safe, if I'm safe and others aren't going to be harmed, then, as Cindy puts it, Just Do It.

Quote from: Anna on January 04, 2013, 01:42:16 PM


Erm. It was the Daily Heil. What more needs to be said?

I was thinking the same thing.  :laugh:

I fully understand and empathize with your rant. A friend of mine went out on Halloween in a dress and makeup, he got awkward stairs. I swear masculine clothing and USUALLY nobody bats an eye, even though I unfortunately don't completely pass as my proper gender.

The downside for FtM's who can't afford hormones and were cursed with curves, is that because females wearing pants and short hair and such is so common place, we just get mistaken for butch women or women in "normal" clothing. We can't express our maleness that way.

The hair issue is a little different, I HAVE gotten criticized and harassed for having short hair, being called derogatory names for lesbian. I've had people not trust me thinking I was a lesbian because of my short hair, and while I certainly think that's incredibly shallow and stupid a way to think, I still have received prejudice and discrimination for it because I can't get on hormones and don't "pass" as my gender.

So there are downsides to it as well for us FtM's who can't get on hormones and or are are stuck with things like large(r) hips or chest, round soft faces, short stature. Others just see us as butch or lesbian which if the environment isn't LGB friendly will cause it's own problems.

Quote from: FullThrottleMalehem on January 09, 2013, 11:16:50 PM
The hair issue is a little different, I HAVE gotten criticized and harassed for having short hair, being called derogatory names for lesbian.

Yup - that's a problem for me too. No offense to any lesbians here, but I'm not attracted to women in the slightest so I'm uncomfortable with being identified as a lesbian. Lesbian = female, and I don't want to be thought of as being female in any way.

But of course, that's what people think when they see me looking obviously female but with short hair & wearing masculine clothing. I hope T will help me pass better.

I'm pre-T so male clothes and male haircut express maleness to ME but for all those people misgendering me they don't do anything. I suppose they are reading me as lesbian. Luckily I am in an area which is generally accepting of this sort of thing. Even my school where I teach it is no issue. But still it isn't who I am.

--Jay

Quote from: DianaP on January 03, 2013, 04:19:45 PMOkay, I don't really see many men criticizing women. Here's out it works. Women choose to dress to impress; the guys just don't complain when they do. No one forces a girl to wear a pretty dress or whatnot; they, once again, just don't have a problem when women choose to do so.  :P

Not entirely true. I was forced to wear a dress and heavy make-up at my sister's wedding, and damn near every person who spoke to me that day pressured me to dress like that more often. They claimed it would "improve my confidence" -- implying that my normal appearance is so ugly that I should feel ashamed for showing it in public. One guy actually interrupted me during dinner (he was sitting at a different table) to give me a lecture on how much better I looked in a dress, and when I attempted to -- politely -- let him know that I didn't want to hear it, he told me to shut up and let him finish. His words. I had no choice but to feebly "thank" him for the "compliment" afterwards.

How I made it all the way home before bursting into tears is beyond me.

It is a double standard but that doesn't keep me from dressing up and going out
and being the person that I am. I'm a casual and conservative dresser so many
see as another woman. I enjoy the time that I do dress which is become more
frequent. There will come a day when I will be exclusively female.


:)