Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Got the following pm and changed my avatar. I'd like to get some opinions from others here since we're all in various stages of transition and it's only natural to want to show a little cleavage because we're all excited about our personal development and want to share with others. I find it a little strange that an MtF would have such a negative attitude. I'm wondering how the rest of you feel. I changed my avatar photo rather than get un-welcomed criticism, I expect to get bigoted criticism on the street, but not here at Susan's.

"I think you're an awesome person Shantel so I hope you don't take this too badly...but its a little odd for me to always have to stare at your breasts because of the avatar. I'm sorta not into breasts and because my eyes naturally go to the avatar when I want to see whose chatting, i see breasts in a low cut t shirt. Don't you have any more neutral kinda pics or something that doesn't show your boobs?"

My response:
Thanks for your input but I'd prefer not to have anyone else set my agenda for what my avatar will be given the fact that a lot of the TG women enjoy showing off their cleavage here at Susan's so naturally I question your motives for singling me out for your critique.
You have the option not to stare at people's cleavage if it is bothersome.

Well now I gotta change my avatar!   ;D

EDIT* to something showing more cleavage I meant!

Hi Shantel

I used to be quite interested in the unclothed female form but now I have oestrogens flowing in my veins I prefer not to see unclothed females. To my surprise I also no longer find obvious cleavage all that nice either. I guess my perspectives have changed.

So on that basis I can see where the other poster was coming from. I usually use Ad-Block to shut out avatars I find unpleasant but maybe the poster does not know how to do that?

I think there's an option to turn off viewing avatars...in one's profile settings.

Your avatar wasn't indecent, I rather envied it. Heck ya if I had those I'd show something! ;-)

Quote from: SageFox on January 03, 2013, 04:15:03 PM
Well now I gotta change my avatar!   ;D

No you do not. Ad-Block rocks.....

:o

Hehe so sweet! :icon_flower: This really isn't about me, it's about all of us and I'm wondering if it's going to get worse. I was at Alderwood Mall yesterday and saw a woman in a black burka with just a slit for her eyes. I went holy sh*t! What's that?

If ya got it, flaunt it. If you're not breaking the rules, set your avatar to whatever makes YOU happy!

I think it's always all right, given it's done appropriately, to say it when someone has a behaviour you dislike. That being said, it's also all right not to want to please everyone. And wanting to please everyone can be quite bad.

I say, you do what you want, but people also say what they want. Anyone doing something daring should understand that more sensitive people might criticise. Whenever you stray from what people tend to find okay, you'll tend to have more judgemental looks. From that point on, you decide what you do.

I can't reasonably speak too much more because I'm biased: I also tend to disapprove of an excess of cleavage, as well as I tend to immediately try to change what displeases people.

Auntie Shan, I'm disappointed in you. Don't let people steer your life. Someone just had too much time on their hands. You know darned well (better than most) if there was an issue, I woulda moderated you! Change it back to the one YOU like. Hugs, Devlyn

Anyone who needs assistance with their account settings should contact any of the Staff members.

Ok, I'm pretty old-fashioned, so I believe in some pretty antiquated things. I don't believe in the Saudi Arabian face-mask, full-body covering thing (that's going way too far), but I always said, "no one's gonna buy the cow if they get the milk for free."  ;)

Anywho, I've seen much worse (curse you, Facebook) and, frankly, I don't really care if anyone besides my sister is less than conservative. I believe one thing ,you believe another. Have fun.  :)

I love your avatar, it kind of encourages me to stay the course, perhaps some day I will look like you. Please do bring your avatar back!

As for the individual who sent you that nasty PM, I will bet you that he/she is a "mole" from thos religious extremists nuts.

OO

Quote from: peky on January 03, 2013, 06:28:48 PM
As for the individual who sent you that nasty PM, I will bet you that he/she is a "mole" from thos religious extremists nuts.

They're everywhere.  :o

Well, Shantel, you've been the recipient of some very female behavior. This is very common for women to 'bitch' about another showing her stuff. And as Devlyn pointed out, yes we do moderate avatars that are too racy. I saw yours mutiple times and it never occured to me that way.

However, given the message, it is possible she felt she was 'talking to another woman's cleavage' and truly was uncomfortable. Also not out of the world of possibility. It's up to you what you want to do.

Quote from: peky on January 03, 2013, 06:28:48 PM
I love your avatar, it kind of encourages me to stay the course, perhaps some day I will look like you. Please do bring your avatar back!

As for the individual who sent you that nasty PM, I will bet you that he/she is a "mole" from thos religious extremists nuts.

OO

Pretty intuitive Pecky, that's a good female trait!  ;D

Quote from: girl you look fierce on January 03, 2013, 06:40:31 PM
Honestly I think it's kinda weird to show just breasts in your avatar, well really I don't understand why people are SO obsessed with breasts here like if you post a pic and it shows even a hint of the existence of a boob somewhere people are like oooh boobs.  There is a lot more to a woman than a pair of boobs okay :/

That is exactly how I feel. I think of boobs as no more than what they are: globs of fat.  :P

Still, GYLF, while we may disagree with the idea of boobs and the fascination with them, it's still Shantel's choice to post them or not.  :)

Quote from: girl you look fierce on January 03, 2013, 06:40:31 PM
Honestly I think it's kinda weird to show just breasts in your avatar, well really I don't understand why people are SO obsessed with breasts here like if you post a pic and it shows even a hint of the existence of a boob somewhere people are like oooh boobs.  There is a lot more to a woman than a pair of boobs okay :/

I'd show you my face but it would break your monitor and not very gender congruent with the rest of me and I do prefer to have anonymity in case I ever wanted to get decent employment or work at a political job. I put up a body shot just to ensure others that I'm legit and not some kind of troll. I try an be helpful to others here and not judgmental of anyone. You're welcome to your opinions but I think it's really peculiar for anyone aspiring to come out as a woman to be put off by another woman in a T-shirt showing just a little cleavage.

Quote from: girl you look fierce on January 03, 2013, 06:40:31 PM
Honestly I think it's kinda weird to show just breasts in your avatar,

I do not agree dahrling, the boys just want to see boobs, face is secondary

Some of us girls want to see boobs too!   ;D

Quote from: girl you look fierce on January 03, 2013, 06:40:31 PM
There is a lot more to a woman than a pair of boobs okay :/

Really? I do not think the boys would agree with you, boob are every thing!!!

Quote from: SageFox on January 03, 2013, 07:08:14 PM
Some of us girls want to see boobs too!   ;D

Sorry, I stand corrected! Girls love boobs too!!!

Quote from: Shantel on January 03, 2013, 06:52:09 PM
You're welcome to your opinions but I think it's really peculiar for anyone aspiring to come out as a woman to be put off by another woman in a T-shirt showing just a little cleavage.

Um, have you met my super-religious mother?  :laugh:

Gah, back to homework! Curse my weak attention span!

If that's bad how would one handle going to the beach these days?  :P

Oh my gosh, tell me about it! I sometimes think that girls are at the beach in lingerie, when they're actually there in bikinis.  :o

.

Are you saying that lesbians shouldn't be allowed to use public restrooms? I'd think they find "the shadow of a boob" to be exciting, just as men do (and by accusation, many MTF's).

Nothing particularly sexual in showing a bit of cleavage..it's not like she had tassles or pasties on, and nothing else. Shantel's avatar was entirely within "normal" parameters, imho.

Quote from: peky on January 03, 2013, 07:02:45 PM
I do not agree dahrling, the boys just want to see boobs, face is secondary

Women have faces?   ;)

Shantel, I love reading your posts. It's fitting that you illustrate them with a very female view of you. Thanks for helping make Susan's an interesting and enlightening place.

Quote from: Shantel on January 03, 2013, 04:26:40 PMI was at Alderwood Mall yesterday and saw a woman in a black burka with just a slit for her eyes. I went holy sh*t! What's that?

She was probably wearing a jilbab (cloak) and a hijab (scarf) (burqa is sort of but not exactly another word for it, but I don't think it's as commonly used by Muslims), a likely show of faith for her being Muslim. The Qur'an stresses (but does not enforce) modesty. In Muslim culture, it's common for women to dress that way (depending on their sect of faith; Sunni and Wahhabi Muslims stress this more than Shia Islam does, to my understanding).

The range that women choose to do this with (or are told to by their husbands, again depending on the type of Muslim -- in Shia Islam, for example, women have much more power in a marriage than men do) is up to them. Most American women who decide to express modesty for Allah choose to only wear a hijab, often without the veiled face and also not always covering all of their hair. My guess is that the woman was a Sunni Muslim, as Wahhabi are rare outside of Saudi Arabia.

Long story short: it's an Islamic tradition.

P.S. I'm not a Muslim, but I've learned a bit about Islam.

Shantel, you look fabulous, please keep your avatar! (I've seen a lot more skin showing on women walking through the grocery, I don't see how anyone would have a problem with your pic!)

I can see why it might take a few people off guard, but, I don't think the avatar is meant to titillate (pun completely intended :P). If you went out in public you'd see some women sporting a similar look, so as I see it, your body your business.

Well I enjoyed all the comments by those with a real view of life here on that planet as well as those who live in a different place in space, it's ok though everyone is welcome to their own opinion as we know what the saying says about opinions. Think we'll change the avatar just so it won't be such a big distraction and go with the all seeing eye of Shan and move on to some other subjects more interesting. Thanks everyone, appreciate your input!

Quote from: Shantel on January 04, 2013, 09:35:00 AM
Well I enjoyed all the comments by those with a real view of life here on that planet as well as those who live in a different place in space, it's ok though everyone is welcome to their own opinion as we know what the saying says about opinions. Think we'll change the avatar just so it won't be such a big distraction and go with the all seeing eye of Shan and move on to some other subjects more interesting. Thanks everyone, appreciate your input!

or not to elicit any undue ENVY  :angel:

ok

now since every had a go at this, let me chime in,

With that said, I do want to clear what some people are saying or have been labeled as intuitive:

1. No I am not a neo conservative religious person. I think anyone who knows me know I am very progressive in any religion or anti religion belief. It's odd that I have conservatives telling me I am going to hell for being liberal but then here I can be assumed as a conservative.

2. It doesn't matter to me if she decided to keep her avatar up. It didn't break any rules whatsoever. Shantel is an awesome person and I stated it. I just gave an opinion that I was uncomfortable seeing a pair of breasts everytime I read her posts. Me being uncomfortable is not the same thing as me saying she is disgusting, wrong, or illicit. I gave an opinion. I just don't appreciate my opinion being reposted on the public forums. I do give her credit that she didn't call my name out.

3. I don't know. Imagine if someone had an avatar of a close up of a man's crotch in tight shorts. I don't think it's an over stretch of the imagination to understand some people may be uncomfortable with the idea.

4. Fatadmin hit the nail on the head. It was like I was talking to breasts and not the person. A full character with cleavage doesn't bother at all so it's not because they are breasts. It was just a big close up of breasts and it felt like I was talking to breasts.

5. In my opinion there's a difference between a girl in the mall with a low cut shirt vs an avatar of just breasts. The analogy would have been more accurate if the girl in the mall only consisted of breasts and nothing more.

6. It had nothing to do with jealously or envy

7. This was me posting as Annah before I was a Moderator. If this happened 48 hours in the future I would have left it alone unless others mentioned it. As a Moderator, I know it isn't breaking any rules and I knew that prior I was a Moderator. Just voicing a non threatening point privately between two people.

8. As I said, I only stated my opinion. It was not a conservative, religious bashing device or making someone to remove an avatar. She can leave it up...I just needed to voice my opinion....in private.

She is certainly able to leave her avatar up. I was just giving my friendly two cents on the matter when I PMed her. Sorry if it came across a different way

You could always compromise Shantel and use something like this:

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F_UjYEcQ5Hl0E%2FTCxzKQWnyXI%2FAAAAAAAAOw4%2FasDoHs9-A40%2Fs1600%2FMelons.jpg&hash=a9c61c37e3fc1b8566e5c595573a1446f96b2eb1)

Quote from: Annah on January 04, 2013, 11:02:35 PM
4. Fatadmin hit the nail on the head. It was like I was talking to breasts and not the person. A full character with cleavage doesn't bother at all so it's not because they are breasts. It was just a big close up of breasts and it felt like I was talking to breasts.

5. In my opinion there's a difference between a girl in the mall with a low cut shirt vs an avatar of just breasts. The analogy would have been more accurate if the girl in the mall only consisted of breasts and nothing more.

Oh well thanks for that image....   :icon_blah:

Quote from: muuu on January 03, 2013, 08:19:00 PM
If I had fabulous hipbones and were proud of them... I'd probably want to share them~

I think breasts is one of those things that are a very obvious change, and people get excited to see progress. So I think it's perfectly reasonable that people are overly happy and giddy when it comes to breasts.

Showing off one's breasts is a reasonable result of being happy with one's HRT progress in that regard. Breasts really are good markers for HRT changes, and if I had fabulous boobs, I'd show them off a bit too. :)

Honestly, being on the Internet for even a little while shows you more boobs than most people from previous generations would see in a lifetime. Same goes for watching television. It's really not the era to be sensitive about people displaying cleavage anymore - in this time period, it is the viewer's duty to "cover their eyes" (use programs to block images, or etc.).

Quote from: Annah on January 04, 2013, 11:02:35 PM
ok

now since every had a go at this, let me chime in,

With that said, I do want to clear what some people are saying or have been labeled as intuitive:

1. No I am not a neo conservative religious person. I think anyone who knows me know I am very progressive in any religion or anti religion belief. It's odd that I have conservatives telling me I am going to hell for being liberal but then here I can be assumed as a conservative.

2. It doesn't matter to me if she decided to keep her avatar up. It didn't break any rules whatsoever. Shantel is an awesome person and I stated it. I just gave an opinion that I was uncomfortable seeing a pair of breasts everytime I read her posts. Me being uncomfortable is not the same thing as me saying she is disgusting, wrong, or illicit. I gave an opinion. I just don't appreciate my opinion being reposted on the public forums. I do give her credit that she didn't call my name out.

3. I don't know. Imagine if someone had an avatar of a close up of a man's crotch in tight shorts. I don't think it's an over stretch of the imagination to understand some people may be uncomfortable with the idea.

4. Fatadmin hit the nail on the head. It was like I was talking to breasts and not the person. A full character with cleavage doesn't bother at all so it's not because they are breasts. It was just a big close up of breasts and it felt like I was talking to breasts.

5. In my opinion there's a difference between a girl in the mall with a low cut shirt vs an avatar of just breasts. The analogy would have been more accurate if the girl in the mall only consisted of breasts and nothing more.

6. It had nothing to do with jealously or envy

7. This was me posting as Annah before I was a Moderator. If this happened 48 hours in the future I would have left it alone unless others mentioned it. As a Moderator, I know it isn't breaking any rules and I knew that prior I was a Moderator. Just voicing a non threatening point privately between two people.

8. As I said, I only stated my opinion. It was not a conservative, religious bashing device or making someone to remove an avatar. She can leave it up...I just needed to voice my opinion....in private.

She is certainly able to leave her avatar up. I was just giving my friendly two cents on the matter when I PMed her. Sorry if it came across a different way

I did not see any attributions by the OP in her initial or subsequent posting, or by anybody else post thereafter.


Am I missing something?

Quote from: Shantel on January 03, 2013, 04:01:55 PM
Got the following pm...

Yes, and I have also gotten some unusual private messages that made me feel uncomfortable.  I did not like them and did not answer them.  I usually turn off private messaging on boards like this.  Perhaps that is a good alternate strategy here.

Quote from: peky on January 05, 2013, 03:48:14 PM

I did not see any attributions by the OP in her initial or subsequent posting, or by anybody else post thereafter.


Am I missing something?

each number was a response to a specific reply written throughout the thread prior to my post.

Quote from: Fat Admin on January 03, 2013, 06:33:56 PM...yes we do moderate avatars that are too racy.

Good.

Nice.

Fine.

Excellent.

Very nice.

But WHO moderates the moderators, may I ask?  Specifically, that racy Kramden hotness avatar that YOU use!  :o

8)

Quote from: Annah on January 05, 2013, 07:01:24 PM
each number was a response to a specific reply written throughout the thread prior to my post.

I do not see any post where you are specifically mention as the originator of the PM, that is until your post where you claim it was yours.

Look, i do not have a dog in this fight, I just was blown by your post; you assume that all previous poster somehow had knowledge that it was you who PM the OP!!!

If that was the case, that would imply some sort of conspiracy. I think all the posts prior to your post were a genuine  responses of solidarity to the OP, that is all.

I think you're misunderstanding, peky. Annah's post served as an admission and defence of the PM in question. I didn't read it as suggesting anyone knew she sent the PM.

Quote from: EmmaMcAllister on January 05, 2013, 10:19:41 PM
I think you're misunderstanding, peky. Annah's post served as an admission and defence of the PM in question. I didn't read it as suggesting anyone knew she sent the PM.

Thanks Emma! You are right, and I appreciate your clarification. Anyway, I do not see any point in making further comments. I think I better bow out of this thread.

Quote from: peky on January 05, 2013, 03:48:14 PM
I did not see any attributions by the OP in her initial or subsequent posting, or by anybody else post thereafter.

Shantel didn't name/attribute Annah, and Annah explicitly acknowledges that she didn't do so in the text you cited.

I read Annah's post as a fairly detailed attempt to explain why Annah found the avatar distracting. I also understand how Shantel could interpret a PM about her avatar in ways other than what Annah may have intended. That dialogue has been ongoing for many decades, at least among feminists I've known.

Quote from: generous4 on January 05, 2013, 06:06:40 PM
Yes, and I have also gotten some unusual private messages that made me feel uncomfortable.  I did not like them and did on not answer them.  I usually turn off private messaging on boards like this.  Perhaps that is a good alternate strategy here.

I just delete PM's that I don't like. I may respond privately if I deem it appropriate and worth my while, otherwise...into the round file it goes.

If the sender is persistent and/or obnoxious, I put them on my "ignore" list. This blocks PM's and seeing their posts.

Quote from: Beth Andrea on January 07, 2013, 12:52:03 AM
I just delete PM's that I don't like.

Check.

Quote from: Beth Andrea on January 07, 2013, 12:52:03 AM
I may respond privately...

Check.

Quote from: Beth Andrea on January 07, 2013, 12:52:03 AMotherwise...into the round file it goes.

Check.

Quote from: Beth Andrea on January 07, 2013, 12:52:03 AM
If the sender is persistent and/or obnoxious, I put them on my "ignore" list.

Mega-check.