Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Salem College transgender student wants to stay on all-female campus as man

Posted on: 9:20 pm, January 11, 2013, by Ali Scotti
   
http://myfox8.com/2013/01/11/salem-college-transgender-student-wants-to-stay-on-all-female-campus-as-man/ (http://myfox8.com/2013/01/11/salem-college-transgender-student-wants-to-stay-on-all-female-campus-as-man/)

WINSTON-SALEM, N.C. (Winston-Salem Journal) —- An undergraduate at all-female Salem College is asking to remain on campus after undergoing an operation in February to complete her transition to a man, and college officials are looking at whether to create a policy on transgender students.

Founded in 1772 by Moravians, Salem College is a four-year liberal-arts school for women. It has enrollment of 1,100 students, including men who are 23 and older who take undergraduate courses at the Fleer Center for Adult Education. However, only female students are allowed to live on campus, according to the school's website.

Michelle Melton, a college spokeswoman, declined to identify the student who is becoming a man, citing fed-eral educational privacy laws and Salem's privacy policies.

The issue has upset Annie Webb, a 2005 Salem graduate, who sent an email to fellow alumnae on Jan. 5 that said a traditional student will be undergoing gender reassignment surgery in February — going from female to male – and plans to continue his education as a student living on campus.

-----

Salem College transgender student wants to stay on all-female campus as man

Posted: Friday, January 11, 2013 7:54 pm | Updated: 12:28 am, Sat Jan 12, 2013.
John Hinton/Winston-Salem Journal

http://www.journalnow.com/news/local/article_a3d18568-5c52-11e2-9e64-0019bb30f31a.html (http://www.journalnow.com/news/local/article_a3d18568-5c52-11e2-9e64-0019bb30f31a.html)

An undergraduate at all-female Salem College is asking to remain on campus after undergoing an operation in February to complete her transition to a man, and college officials are looking at whether to create a policy on transgender students.

Founded in 1772 by Moravians, Salem College is a four-year liberal-arts school for women. It has enrollment of 1,100 students, including men who are 23 and older who take undergraduate courses at the Fleer Center for Adult Education. However, only female students are allowed to live on campus, according to the school's website.

Michelle Melton, a college spokeswoman, declined to identify the student who is becoming a man, citing federal educational privacy laws and Salem's privacy policies.

Is there a story on this that is not from a Fox source? The story raises many more questions about the political infighting with college admin than it seems to have much to do with the student. I like that the admin are respecting the student's privacy in this, and all the focus seems to be on fear and mistrust from some alumnae who feel the college's single-sex status could be compromised when that seems to be a non-issue from what's being said by admin.

Satisfying and placating alums' anxieties at any college is almost always a viper's nest, whatever the original trigger might be. In this case it seems to have almost nothing to do with the student's transness, but confidentiality seems to mean that reporters don't have much fact they can report. Not that Fox reporters would do that even if they did have facts.

I'll probably be looking for some credible sources on this, considering my fairly fixed opinion of Fox as infotainment, not news.

Quote from: Elspeth on January 12, 2013, 08:57:54 AM
Is there a story on this that is not from a Fox source?

I've edited my above post to include the source article, which seems to have been copied verbatim by Fox.

More depth. Salem College has at least one faculty member, Elroi Windsor (http://www.salem.edu/directory/elroi-windsor), whose interests, from his profile, include FTM Transgender studies.  Sounds like a very nice and curious guy, dedicated to Salem's mission as a women's college.

A longer, more reflective article appears at The Roanoke Times (http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/306645). The article actually reviews the transgender policy at another women's college, Winthrop University. It's of interest, though, in that it is longer, and concerns an actual policy, and compares it to policies that have come up in recent years at other women's colleges, many of which recognize the need to come up with a sensitive and humanitarian approach to coping with students who transition while at such colleges.

Not linking to Cathy Brennan's blog, though it came up high in the search. Her very brief article only seems to link to an almost identical news story from the local paper (the one you added in your edit) and contains an unsubstantiated assertion that I hope Brennan will choose to address, though I have my doubts, considering Brennan's tendencies to seek discord.

I just came across this story on my local news. A transguy is transitioning and wants to stay at a female only College. Just curious what everyone's thoughts on this subject are. I personally think he should have to transfer to another school. When you decide to medically transition and be seen as fully male (not androgynous or gender queer) in society then you take what consequences go with that decision. Not being able to attend an all female College would be high on the list of things you can't do anymore,imo. Here is a direct link to the story:

http://myfox8.com/2013/01/11/salem-college-transgender-student-wants-to-stay-on-all-female-campus-as-man/ (http://myfox8.com/2013/01/11/salem-college-transgender-student-wants-to-stay-on-all-female-campus-as-man/)

Do you think he should stay? If so, why?

If you think he should transfer elsewhere, what other "privileges" can you think of that one would necessarily abandon once they begin medical transition from female to male?

Personally, I think he should transfer. I say that as someone who is way more comfortable around women. If he was a cis man he wouldn't have a choice in the matter.

I'm more confortable around women myself and I think he should transfer. I don't know why you'd want to stay. I mean, it's an all girl school. That would make my dysphoria go sky high.

Quote from: Caleb. on January 12, 2013, 02:41:03 PM
Personally, I think he should transfer. I say that as someone who is way more comfortable around women. If he was a cis man he wouldn't have a choice in the matter.

I agree.

if he wants to be respected as a guy he needs to follow the rules in regards to guys.

Well I've heard of early transitioning guys (maybe not on T yet) but this sounds like someone who is post transition. Actually can't understand it. I think I'd feel profound social dysphoria in such a situation. There would be tons of situations-- use of bathrooms, address in the classroom ("ladies"), etc etc.

BTW, I know of a guy who graduated from Smith. Has to think of all sorts of things when people ask where he graduated.

I figured out I was trans this past year, so I know how someone could end up in the situation. What would you do if you had one more year or something after you'd found out. It seems like you'd lose a lot of credit. OTOH, he's obviously had a lot of time.

Sounds like he is trying to make an issue out of it.


--Jay

This is a much better article (but not about the same kid). The title is kind of lame.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/16/magazine/16students-t.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/16/magazine/16students-t.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0)

--Jay

Quote from: Caleb. on January 12, 2013, 02:41:03 PM
Personally, I think he should transfer. I say that as someone who is way more comfortable around women. If he was a cis man he wouldn't have a choice in the matter.

If he were a cis male he would never have been admitted and therefore this would not have been an issue at all.

Transfers can rarely be managed without losing credits, especially late in one's college career. I'm sure if he had infinite money he would probably choose to transfer too.

Reading between the lines, it seems to me the school is trying to respect his situation and his privacy. There are alums making noises, seemingly without much thought or empathy. Mostly it seems like just one alum, though, jumping to conclusions that don't seem to be supported by what little the head of the trustee's feels he's a liberty to say. It reads like they would like to handle this as a one-off situation if they can get everyone to sign off on going that way, rather than make a policy based on one student's needs... granted, this will probably come up again, considering that FTMs are now the majority of those seeking transition, and the age of transition keeps getting younger.

Quote from: aleon515 on January 12, 2013, 03:29:45 PM
Well I've heard of early transitioning guys (maybe not on T yet) but this sounds like someone who is post transition. Actually can't understand it. I think I'd feel profound social dysphoria in such a situation. There would be tons of situations-- use of bathrooms, address in the classroom ("ladies"), etc etc.

BTW, I know of a guy who graduated from Smith. Has to think of all sorts of things when people ask where he graduated.

Not everyone puts a priority on passing. Did you happen to see Cloud Atlas? I'm thinking of Sonmi's line about her struggle between self-preservation, which would have pushed her to blend in and disappear, vs. the decision that turns her into a martyr and a human rights icon.

I have to wonder, given the profile of the faculty member I mentioned, whether this student is not seeing his position as a kind of living activism to balance between the uninvited need of himself as a transman to act in his own interest about his identity, while also finding a way to undercut trans invisibility?  Have to wonder at least until some other shoes have fallen.

Fox8 in the Winston-Salem area is the local network affiliate of Fox.  They are owned and operated by local interests and produce local news coverage.

It is mistaken to confuse a network-affiliate with the network itself, or the Fox News Channel.

Quote from: Pleasingly Plump Jamie D on January 13, 2013, 04:20:15 AM
Fox8 in the Winston-Salem area is the local network affiliate of Fox. 

The Fox8 story is also a nearly verbatim copy of the local news article from the Winston-Salem newspaper.

Quote from: aleon515 on January 12, 2013, 04:03:38 PM
This is a much better article (but not about the same kid). The title is kind of lame.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/16/magazine/16students-t.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/16/magazine/16students-t.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0)

--Jay

Perhaps relevant to the current story (and the assumption that transfer would be preferrable) is this paragraph from the article:

QuoteIndeed, as one transmale student I spoke to at Wellesley pointed out, women's colleges are uniquely suited to transgender students. "There's no safer place for transmen to be than a women's college because there's no actual physical threat to us," he told me, adding, "I have more in common with women because of that shared experience than I do with men." And even though Rey chose to leave Barnard for a coed school, he also says that women's schools can — and should — act as havens for transmale students, that they are, in fact, natural beacons for trans people, because "feminists and trans activists are both interested in gender."

Quote from: Simon on January 12, 2013, 02:36:44 PM
I personally think he should have to transfer to another school.

Quote from: Caleb. on January 12, 2013, 02:41:03 PM
Personally, I think he should transfer.

Quote from: Darrin Scott on January 12, 2013, 02:42:39 PM
I don't know why you'd want to stay.

Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on January 12, 2013, 02:44:28 PM
I agree.

Wouldn't transitioning, dealing with the transmedical establishment, learning to live as a man, etc. be hard enough on the guy? Wouldn't it kind of be adding insult to injury to leave his college (and probably a lot of his friends) and start over again, getting used to a new place after he's just transitioned?

Should all transgender people divorce their spouses when they transition? After all, same sex marriage is against the rules in most places? Sort of the same thing, isn't it?

Isn't there something to be said to allowing people who are going through the very traumatic act of transitioning to maintain some constancy in their lives, even though it may be inconvenient for those around them?

I do agree it is inconvenient. Accommodating diversity is always inconvenient. Much cheaper and less effort for everyone to act the same.

To me denying admission to males seems very different from kicking someone out (or "persuading" them to leave) after they have been admitted, maintained good standing, and committed no crimes, simply because he finally faced up to his gender issues.

Quote from: agfrommd on January 13, 2013, 11:27:57 AM
To me denying admission to males seems very different from kicking someone out (or "persuading" them to leave) after they have been admitted, maintained good standing, and committed no crimes, simply because he finally faced up to his gender issues.

Very, very different indeed.

To me it seems as though this guy wants dual privileges. He wants to be recognized as a man physically in the World so he goes through medical transition. Then he wants to be privileged in staying at a women's college. Sorry, but he should have took this into consideration before transition. From what I have read, men over 23 (not sure the age of the guy) are allowed to take classes at the college but men are not allowed to live on campus. There are no men's dorms and no coed dorms.

I don't understand why people think they are entitled to be involved in everything. Everything is not for everyone. I wouldn't try to go join the local "Red Hat Society" because I know that is a social group for elderly women. If I was foolish enough to try I wouldn't get upset when I was told no.

Quote from: Simon on January 13, 2013, 01:10:38 PM
To me it seems as though this guy wants dual privileges. He wants to be recognized as a man physically in the World so he goes through medical transition. Then he wants to be privileged in staying at a women's college. Sorry, but he should have took this into consideration before transition. From what I have read, men over 23 (not sure the age of the guy) are allowed to take classes at the college but men are not allowed to live on campus. There are no men's dorms and no coed dorms.

We really have no idea what the guy wants. The story only quotes those who found out about his request to finish the year, and the statement from the head of trustees (and that second statement was a masterpiece of saying almost nothing in many, many words).

I'm looking at this from the POV of my trans son, who is:

• Struggling to convince his mom that he has considered the consequences and is ready for top surgery
• Is "accepted" as male-identified by his gap year program, yet expected to deal with living in shared housing with 4 or 5 cisgendered women (not something he's at ease with, but adapting to)
• Without other factors, he would like to go to college presenting as male as possible
• Given reality, that's not very likely, even after top surgery, but is almost certainly not going to happen without it.
• He's fortunate that he's not dealing with conflicts like those in an all-girls school, but on the other hand, as the NYT article points out, at least some of the top tier women's colleges have shown leadership in being sensitive to the fact that as someone who has undergone female socialization, there's a case to be made that such schools can be in some ways a more supportive environment, at least for some transmen. My son doesn't want to go to one, but I can respect the perspective of someone who does/did.

I don't see any simple answers in this situation. Giving benefit of the doubt to the college admin, what I know from the story (which may be distorted, and is almost certainly incomplete) is that they appear to be trying to deal with the situation in as sensitive a manner as possible, though busybody involvement from alums (or possibly just the one alum who's been gadfly behind the story) seems to be complicating that.

Admin wants to handle this privately and with respect to the student's privacy and confidentiality, while third parties who seem to not know the student at all or know his motives are using it as fodder to cast doubt on the competence and integrity of admin and trustees. All too common situation in academe, not isolated to gender issues.

There's an assumption in comments on this that Salem College has an actual formal policy on this situation, when it seems clear from the head of trustees comment that they don't have one, and that they may not be prepared to develop one at the present time.  In the absence of a formal policy, given that he was admitted there, it seems as reasonable to expect that he be allowed to finish at the college that accepted him, as that they would have an issue. The noise is coming from alums. There's nothing in the story to suggest that any students are asking for him to transfer or withdraw.

Quote from: Elspeth on January 13, 2013, 09:47:18 AM
The Fox8 story is also a nearly verbatim copy of the local news article from the Winston-Salem newspaper.

Actually, it was a copy, and they cited their source on the page.  My comment points more at your disdain for the source of the article.  Would you have felt differently had the source been MSNBC?

If so, here you go ...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/50443424/ns/local_news-raleigh_nc/t/salem-college-weighs-future-transgender-student/#.UPOVm2fhdO0 (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/50443424/ns/local_news-raleigh_nc/t/salem-college-weighs-future-transgender-student/#.UPOVm2fhdO0)

It seems like other colleges have policies on it, but not Salem (maybe the first time, but who knows). It seems like something they need to think about carefully and not have a knee-jerk response. Though according to the policies of some schools, he couldn't stay (no hormones, surgery etc.) Article assumes he has had bottom surgery (requires taking T for more than a year)-- seems like I read that in another article. Some of the other stories, the kids are much earlier in their transitions. But still I think it would be a hard thing. As this is where their relationships are and so forth. Not much info in the very short article. I guess I could kind of understand it.

Not sure what kind of "advantages" he would get to staying, aside from a degree at said college. He might also have a bit of 'splaining' to do. I'd say if you are socialized female, the socialization is very powerful.

BTW, this is an Associated Press article-- not Fox, MSNBC, etc.

--Jay

Quote from: Pleasingly Plump Jamie D on January 13, 2013, 11:18:02 PM
Actually, it was a copy, and they cited their source on the page.  My comment points more at your disdain for the source of the article.  Would you have felt differently had the source been MSNBC?

I suppose I was unclear. I thought the article was poorly written, looking to create the appearance of a conflict that was largely manufactured or imagined, and not particularly newsworthy. The weakness of the writing and the editorial judgement had nothing to do with Fox, since the original source was almost certainly the local paper... same for the summary "reblogged" by MSNBC, and by all appearances also cribbed from the same thin source.

Compare the story to the NYT feature and you may see why I consider the first to be a waste of time and the latter to be fairly well-done, in terms of offering insight and analysis on a question a lot of women's colleges are facing, and appear to be treating with considerable thought and respect. Given that Salem College has at least one faculty member who has published on FTM issues (who was NOT featured in the article in any way), and given the careful statement of the trustees' spokesman, who said nothing definite, and was guarding the student's confidentiality, I have every reason to think that Salem College is doing the same, even though that's a hard conclusion to draw from the poorly conceived, mediocre-ly written and poorly edited "news" article.

The Salem College story should probably have been shelved until the College actually took some action. As written, all it was was a gossip piece, and maybe a moment of poor editorial judgement by an editor who may have been getting hectored by the alumna with an agenda of her own, that probably should have been investigated and added as part of the story before committing it to press.  Then again, journalistic responsibility in the age of blogs is nearly an extinct notion that many consider quaint.

PS: I went back to check whether the Winston-Salem Journal article (http://www.journalnow.com/news/local/article_a3d18568-5c52-11e2-9e64-0019bb30f31a.html) was an AP product. It appears to have been bylined by one of the Journal's reporters, so I don't see where this allegation is coming from. Perhaps the AP syndicated a piece cribbing from the article? I strongly recommend taking a look at comments, especially those from current Salem College students, who seem outraged by the irresponsible nature of the article and fully supportive of the student (who apparently is nowhere close to having had bottom surgery, not that that would necessarily be relevant). The students' comments I read are highly encouraging that the college is doing the right thing here by avoiding adding fuel to flames that seem to be coming from people with bad info and a personal axe to grind.

Quote from: Pleasingly Plump Jamie D on January 13, 2013, 04:20:15 AM
It is mistaken to confuse a network-affiliate with the network itself, or the Fox News Channel.

By the by, my snark about Fox was made before Zythra re-edited the original post. I suppose I should have deleted it or re-edited it once she clarified and had cited the original source article, since this is largely an irrelevant  sideshow issue now and distraction from the central issues surrounding the story itself (as published). You're commenting on something I wrote when the only source happened to include the deficit of Fox branding.

I have a low opinion of the quality of journalism today in general, if that's not entirely obvious from my follow-up. It's not limited to Fox or its affiliates.  Still, branding is branding. Those who live by it, may also die by it, deservedly or not.

Quote from: Elspeth on January 14, 2013, 12:38:25 AM

PS: I went back to check whether the Winston-Salem Journal article (http://www.journalnow.com/news/local/article_a3d18568-5c52-11e2-9e64-0019bb30f31a.html) was an AP product. It appears to have been bylined by one of the Journal's reporters, so I don't see where this allegation is coming from. Perhaps the AP syndicated a piece cribbing from the article? I strongly recommend taking a look at comments, especially those from current Salem College students, who seem outraged by the irresponsible nature of the article and fully supportive of the student (who apparently is nowhere close to having had bottom surgery, not that that would necessarily be relevant). The students' comments I read are highly encouraging that the college is doing the right thing here by avoiding adding fuel to flames that seem to be coming from people with bad info and a personal axe to grind.

If you look at the MSNBC and NBC story, there is a AP byline--there is no AP byline on the Winston Salem story. I don't know precisely how AP works, but they probably did pick it up from elsewhere. The WS story used the term "gender reassignment surgery". I wondered how the heck a college student could afford that anyway. My guess is top surgery since I thought the article said had had the surgery necessary to go from female to male. I don't know why they say "is completing surgery" since it is generally a one shot deal (bad writing??). In that case it is possible to not even have had T.

If that is the case, we could have a student who is not passing at all. So it is pretty clear to see why the person might not want to go elsewhere, if mostly accepted by peers and staff as male. He may, in fact, feel more male at Salem, than he would any where else. Of course the article is so badly written you wouldn't know, though I respect Salem for not disclosing info.

The letters to the editor indicate that the article itself my not actually be true. Or at least very very exaggerated. Oh shock of shocks.

--Jay


It's too bad that they didn't ask the professor at Salem anything.

you can pose all the socialogical and touchy feely reasons why this man should be alowed to stay in a womens university until you are blue in the face

it feels wrong
he is a man
it is a womens university
he should respect womens space and leave

He is a man...

Really why would he transition if all he was gonna do is use women only dorms...

To me sounds like someone who actually want 100% sure they were a man and regrets it now..

Obviously we dont actually enough to believe anything but hes a man so he is well not elcome into womens dorms...

Its pure logic and his seems flawed.

I feel the need to point out that the gentleman in question may well be reading our responses. A lot of trans people read Susan's without posting. Some eventually post if the responses they read give them the sense that they'd be welcome. This man may need our support and may be reading this very thread to decide whether he would be welcome here.

We should consider our responses with that in mind.

Quote from: agfrommd on January 14, 2013, 12:52:15 PM
I feel the need to point out that the gentleman in question may well be reading our responses. A lot of trans people read Susan's without posting. Some eventually post if the responses they read give them the sense that they'd be welcome. This man may need our support and may be reading this very thread to decide whether he would be welcome here.

We should consider our responses with that in mind.

Think of it this way if a cis-male asked to join its a straight no, why should he be treated any differently?

Quote from: LilDevilOfPrada on January 14, 2013, 12:56:00 PM
Think of it this way if a cis-male asked to join its a straight no, why should he be treated any differently?

Yes. As I said in my earlier post, he was already admitted there, has completed part of his education, has made a home and friends there, and has committed no crime, only faced up to his gender issues.

If he is reading this post so what?

I stand behind what I have said.

If you are a man you shouldn't be in a womens university. You are doing something that will alienate some folks and you are giving amunition to radfems.

Quote from: agfrommd on January 14, 2013, 12:52:15 PM
I feel the need to point out that the gentleman in question may well be reading our responses. A lot of trans people read Susan's without posting. Some eventually post if the responses they read give them the sense that they'd be welcome. This man may need our support and may be reading this very thread to decide whether he would be welcome here.

We should consider our responses with that in mind.

Yes, yes, yes.

I'm deeply disappointed that some are reading the topline summary and taking it at face value. Especially when there is so little pressure from at least some of these women's colleges to withdraw support from "sisters" who go on to become men, and from trying to dig into this deeper, Salem College seems to be one of that number. Salem students commenting on the story point out that there has been pressure from within to create a more specific transgender policy, but that the progress has yet to be made on that, and the implication seems fairly clear that students, staff and faculty are not where any pressure is coming from for this student to go elsewhere.

Perhaps it will be appropriate for him to find other housing, for instance. But that should be between him, fellow students and administrative judgements, not a matter for public debate among people who have a clearly distorted picture of the actual and specific details.

I'm sorry if I'm perseverating on this, but I am dealing with many of these issues in connection with my son, who has a full scholarship waiting for him at a coed university, and who has been dealing with accomodation issues at the gap year program where he went, in part to deal with some of these issues before going on to college. It's not nearly as simple as some seem to think it is.

By, the way, I'd been trying to talk my son into participating here, but I have to be concerned now, granted, he has already been exposed to far worse knee-jerk reactions and spot judgments on Tumblr, I'm sure.

My son, for instance, entered his gap year program wanting to be housed in either a coed shared house or a males-only house. Safety concerns and other considerations led the admin of the program to put him in a house with 5 women. He has been identifying male with them (and was clear that was his intent before the housing arrangements were made). There has been little harassment or complaint, but it is not a comfortable situation for him and is part of what led to him taking a break from the program after Thanksgiving. (He returned there, yesterday, and he now has a different housing arrangment, but it is still not simple, given where he is in terms of transition).

What "information" there is in the W-S Journal article about his situation and condition seems to be based on hearsay -- the student wasn't interviewed (and the college rightly refused to violate his privacy rights, some of which are statutory) -- the story seems to be offering material that comes from one source, a source that herself also does not have confirmed details, and whose motives and agenda have only been alluded to in vague terms in the article itself.

I just point out that the news staff is very diligent in looking for TG/TS related content.  We know that non-TG/TS writers often have difficulty with the concepts, pronouns, and issues faced by our community.  Consequently, the copy does not always read well.

But the staff looks for content where ever they can find it.

Jamie, it's an interesting subject, we don't blame you for how poorly the article was written!

I think the situation changes with how far he is in his transition. It's called "transition", which means that it takes time and there are many levels to this. The article seemed to not to be quite accurate in how far he was in transition, describing  perhaps a post-transition individual.

I could right now no more live on campus with a bunch of men, use men's restrooms, etc. since I am not passing. There may be safety concerns.

Do I think a post-transition person should be staying at a women's university? I don't. But there are all sorts of steps to all this.



--Jay

Perhaps the question should not be "what should this student do?"--since we have very little actual information about him, and all is speculation--but "what is a fair policy at women's colleges?" At what point is it reasonable to ask a trans man to leave? And another question--at what point should a trans woman be welcome at a women's college?

Some would argue that since part of the mission of a women's college is to nurture people who have been raised as girls, with certain sexism-based social disadvantages, schools ought to be more accepting of trans men who are later in their transitions. I would tend to disagree, however, because this argument insufficiently addresses the concerns of the rest of the student body.

We also have some privacy concerns here. Is it reasonable or even legal for a college to use a person's medical history as a disqualifier, even if the school is relying on self-disclosure? What would such a school do with any individual (perhaps even an intersex person) who is very masculine in appearance but who was raised as a girl and is legally considered to be female? At what point does masculinity turn into maleness? I've met a few butch lesbians I thought were men at first. Would they be welcome at such a school, or are they too masculine?

Quote from: Pleasingly Plump Jamie D on January 14, 2013, 01:44:57 PM
I just point out that the news staff is very diligent in looking for TG/TS related content.  We knows that non-TG/TS writers often have difficulty with the concepts, pronouns, and issues faced by our community.  Consequently, the copy does not always read well.

But the staff looks for content where ever they can find it.

I understand this, and I'm not faulting anyone for posting articles that may press some buttons. Only suggesting that critical reading is a good idea when reading any news article, especially when the motives for publishing it may not be entirely pure. It was telling that when I tried Googling for more background, some of the first places reposting this story uncritically were some of the usual radfem or radfem wannabe blogs.

I say this as someone who used to be a lot more sympathetic to a lot of radfem points of view -- I personally avoided even trying to enter many "womens spaces" mainly out of respect for some of the concerns that radfems raised. If you look at my everything2 essays (http://everything2.com/user/ebbixx/writeups), you'll find more than a few defending Andrea Dworkin (and John Stoltenberg)'s writings and provocations. My present POV is too complicated to describe in less than a very long essay... maybe I'll write that essay soon, but so much of it has to do with letting people make peace with themselves on their own timeline, that my POV is probably entirely irrelevant to that.

Quote from: Elspeth on January 14, 2013, 01:35:49 PM
I'm sorry if I'm perseverating on this, but I am dealing with many of these issues in connection with my son, who has a full scholarship waiting for him at a coed university, and who has been dealing with accomodation issues at the gap year program where he went, in part to deal with some of these issues before going on to college. It's not nearly as simple as some seem to think it is.

Thanks for bringing in your perspective as a parent! Clearly this isn't a black and white issue... as is the case for many things.

Quote from: Pleasingly Plump Jamie D on January 14, 2013, 01:44:57 PM
I just point out that the news staff is very diligent in looking for TG/TS related content.  We knows that non-TG/TS writers often have difficulty with the concepts, pronouns, and issues faced by our community.  Consequently, the copy does not always read well.

But the staff looks for content where ever they can find it.

News Staff, or anyone else posting articles on the News Forum, aren't responsible for the quality of the content. I often link to articles from sources that are sensationalistic or twisting things to their advantage. I post them so that we can be aware of how we're being portrayed in the media.

Quote from: agfrommd on January 14, 2013, 12:52:15 PM
I feel the need to point out that the gentleman in question may well be reading our responses. A lot of trans people read Susan's without posting. Some eventually post if the responses they read give them the sense that they'd be welcome. This man may need our support and may be reading this very thread to decide whether he would be welcome here.

We should consider our responses with that in mind.

Absolutely true!

Zythyra - News Admin

Quote from: LilDevilOfPrada on January 14, 2013, 12:51:59 PM
To me sounds like someone who actually want 100% sure they were a man and regrets it now.

I wouldn't go that far.

This topic makes me think that he didn't consider the social impact that transitioning causes. I've seen it before with transguys who want to retain the term lesbian, attend women's festivals, etc and they truly don't understand why they're being excluded from those things that were such a part of their identities pre transition.

Maybe the importance of preparing yourself for social change and how people will perceive you after hormones needs to be stressed more in the trans community to those starting out.

Quote from: Simon on January 14, 2013, 03:43:06 PM
I wouldn't go that far.

This topic makes me think that he didn't consider the social impact that transitioning causes. I've seen it before with transguys who want to retain the term lesbian, attend women's festivals, etc and they truly don't understand why they're being excluded from those things that were such a part of their identities pre transition.

Maybe the importance of preparing yourself for social change and how people will perceive you after hormones needs to be stressed more in the trans community to those starting out.

I've seen this too. Esp. people who have been active in lesbian issues or women's issues. (For me it was quite awhile ago). There is a sense of belonging that comes out of that. It's also an issue with SOs who are used to identifying as lesbian-- it's a belonging thing.

--Jay

Quote from: Simon on January 14, 2013, 03:43:06 PM
I wouldn't go that far.

This topic makes me think that he didn't consider the social impact that transitioning causes. I've seen it before with transguys who want to retain the term lesbian, attend women's festivals, etc and they truly don't understand why they're being excluded from those things that were such a part of their identities pre transition.

Maybe the importance of preparing yourself for social change and how people will perceive you after hormones needs to be stressed more in the trans community to those starting out.

I agree with this, far too many people under think transition, I mean most just think its fixing their bodies but the social links to this is a major factor of the process that some just dont think about.

Changing ones gender isnt simply their body apperance but rather everthing about you, in terms of society.

I think this guy completely didnt think of what he was doing if he was still hoping to be part of the womens only world stuff.

Quote from: LilDevilOfPrada on January 15, 2013, 04:19:07 AM
I I think this guy completely didnt think of what he was doing if he was still hoping to be part of the womens only world stuff.

Forgive me, but considering the article contains no real or clear info about this guy's situation, we really don't know anything about why he chose Salem College, or just how much he has thought about this. From one of the comments from a student who seems to know him in person, I suspect he has thought about this far more than some of us are assuming.

I know for myself that overthinking the social consequences are one of the reasons I've taken so long and done so much damage to myself by delaying transition. It would be unfair of me to judge what someone else has chosen, especially based on a badly written and fairly obviously distorted story, one that gets even more distorted, the further it gets condensed down from the original, largely second- or third-hand account.

My opinion;
If you're a man, you shouldn't be allowed in an all women college or any place that's for women only for that matter. The end.
Doesn't matter how traumatic transition is or what your financial situation is. He should have thought of that before hand.
And I find it extremely disrespectful for the ladies attending that school.

If he identifies as a man, he is one - and therefore should not be attending a women's college.

The question of where he is in his transition is immaterial.

Quote from: Jayr on January 15, 2013, 09:46:20 AM
My opinion;
If you're a man, you shouldn't be allowed in an all women college or any place that's for women only for that matter. The end.
Doesn't matter how traumatic transition is or what your financial situation is. He should have thought of that before hand.
And I find it extremely disrespectful for the ladies attending that school.

You're welcome to your opinion, but if you would read the NYT article that was linked in this thread, or check out the dialogue that's going on at some of these women's colleges, you will find that not everyone there shares your viewpoint. Personally, I would have avoided them myself, and my trans son has never expressed an interest in a women's college, but having read about the ongoing dialogues at some of them, I am coming to realize that radfem absolutist positions are not actually much supported at some of these schools, and that Salem College is one of those that is not taking a cut-and-dried essentialist viewpoint on this.

I'm going to add a second link to the NYT article (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/16/magazine/16students-t.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0), for ease of reference, and since it got kind of lost back on page one.

I'm sorry but I don't have time to waste reading all that.

Men shouldn't be in an all-women's college. Common sense.

I'm gonna leave it at that.

Quote from: Kelly the Trans-Rebel on January 15, 2013, 09:55:31 AM
If he identifies as a man, he is one - and therefore should not be attending a women's college.

The question of where he is in his transition is immaterial.

+1

Quote from: Jayr on January 15, 2013, 10:42:11 AM
Men shouldn't be in an all-women's college. Common sense.

Isn't this similar to the argument we've been hearing from transphobes? "People with penises are men. Common sense. People with vaginas are women. Common sense."

Except common sense sometimes isn't true. Rather than making a blanket declaration wouldn't it be more compassionate to look at the particular circumstances, to look at the relative harm either way?

Quote from: Elspeth on January 15, 2013, 10:27:40 AM
You're welcome to your opinion, but if you would read the NYT article that was linked in this thread, or check out the dialogue that's going on at some of these women's colleges, you will find that not everyone there shares your viewpoint. Personally, I would have avoided them myself, and my trans son has never expressed an interest in a women's college, but having read about the ongoing dialogues at some of them, I am coming to realize that radfem absolutist positions are not actually much supported at some of these schools, and that Salem College is one of those that is not taking a cut-and-dried essentialist viewpoint on this.

I'm going to add a second link to the NYT article (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/16/magazine/16students-t.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0), for ease of reference, and since it got kind of lost back on page one.

So we should change our opinions because some one we do not know disagrees with us?

A man should not be in a womens university.

Quote from: cynthialee on January 15, 2013, 11:16:33 AM
A man should not be in a womens university.

Not even if the college or university welcomes him and supports him, in part because of his experience of coerced socialization as a woman?

Quote from: Elspeth on January 15, 2013, 11:19:33 AM
Not even if the college or university welcomes him and supports him, in part because of his experience of coerced socialization as a woman?

I dont see why he should be given a special treatment, no cis-man would be allowed to enter so why should he? And on that note I am done with the thread because hes a man he must accept it simple and done.

Quote from: LilDevilOfPrada on January 15, 2013, 11:59:39 AM
I dont see why he should be given a special treatment, no cis-man would be allowed to enter so why should he? And on that note I am done with the thread because hes a man he must accept it simple and done.

From what anyone can tell, he's not getting special treatment, he's being treated as an individual who was admitted to the school in accordance with its own policies. And the situation seems to be one that's being handled with sensitivity and respect to his privacy and fairly unique circumstances, at least where Salem College administration are concerned.

If the college itself is not asking him to leave, how is your opinion on this (or mine, for than matter) even relevant? It's too unclear to me based on one badly written story to even feel I have enough facts to form an opinion on what he should or shouldn't do, and really, the outcome is between him and the college, not the general blogosphere.

Maybe some of you guys are post transition and so on. I think that would be hard on the other women. But we don't know this guy. So it is hard to judge the situation. What if you have a guy, very early transition (the idea that he had bottom surgery was bull-pucky), no T, maybe starting to dress, use male pronouns, in therapy. What do you think? This is not someone actually living as male in society. For all we know the guy might be genderqueer but more comfortable being seen by male. And perhaps a bit of a protected background, we don't know.

See a guy is a guy and a girl is a girl, well to me that's all very binary thinking. And the other kids are going to resent it. Actually the other kids do NOT. I don't like to read the comments but I did. The other kids are supportive. I think the *alumni* are the ones who have more problems, but alumni don't like *any* changes anyway. They normally get bummed out if you change mascots (say Indians to Jets or something).

BTW, I saw a youtube "movie". I think it was Transgeneration. Anyway there was a guy attending Smith. He was very early transition. Also Smith (like some of these schools) has a long history of lots of activism in various areas. So he actually fit in in some ways.
It seems like some schools even have a history of being supportive of this type of thing. Such a school might go more out of it's way than a regular college. So he might be seen as male more.


I don't know that *I* would be comfortable there, of course it's been a long time since I was 18, and thats' another thing, his age. Some 18s are a lot younger than others.
BTW, I think where he is in his transition is not irrelevant, it's almost everything.


--Jay

The problem with this transitioned student is not with attending the college.  They make it clear that men do attend classes there.

The problem is with the housing arrangements.   All of the dorms are female.  The rights of his potential roommates need to be considered too.  I recall (barely - it was so long ago!) that some semesters I commuted, some semesters I lived in campus housing, and some years I lived off campus.  If this transman lives off campus, there should be no issue.

Quote from: Pleasingly Plump Jamie D on January 16, 2013, 07:36:02 PM
The problem with this transitioned student is not with attending the college.  They make it clear that men do attend classes there.

Just to clarify (this story has been on my local news), at Salem College a man must be over 23 years of age AND attend classes in a separate building. I'm not sure but I think the classes they let men attend are also very limited to just a few courses.

Quote from: Simon on January 16, 2013, 08:35:03 PM
Just to clarify (this story has been on my local news), at Salem College a man must be over 23 years of age AND attend classes in a separate building. I'm not sure but I think the classes they let men attend are also very limited to just a few courses.

Yes.  I believe Simon was referring to this paragraph:

Founded in 1772 by Moravians, Salem College is a four-year liberal-arts school for women. It has enrollment of 1,100 students, including men who are 23 and older who take undergraduate courses at the Fleer Center for Adult Education. However, only female students are allowed to live on campus, according to the school's website.

I feel it comes down to their admission policy.  I doubt if they have a cointinuation policy so to speak. this person did not violate any admission policy, and concomitant with admission is an implied contract that allows graduation based on academic performance, not gender.  The school is handling this properly, and not reacting as a black and white solution.  Right now, IMHO, this person probably is legally entitled to complete his studies.  Good for him.  Not everything must be absolute.

Barbara