Susan's Place Transgender Resources

And if there are not, is the struggle for gender identity just the struggle for expressing these universal traits in gender specific ways?

what do you specifically mean by "traits"?

I think so. Of course, no woman possesses all the traits attributed to womanhood, no man possesses all the traits attributed to manhood, no androgyne is completely lacking in gendered traits entirely, every man has traits of womanhood, every woman has traits of manhood. It's more a matter of mostly. And somebody who outwardly expresses masculine traits almost exclusively might say that she feels strongly that she is a woman and has no trouble whatever reconciling that with her 'mannish' behavior and appearance.

I think we trans folks would not feel the way we do if gender was not inborn. At least some of gender is not really a cultural construct.

I think the struggle for gender identity is a struggle for identity. To be recognized as the person you are. It's deeper than behavioral or physical traits. Most people find their gender to be a core element of identity. They believe that they would be men or women even if they were without physical form, and they believe they are still men and women even while behaving in cross-gendered ways.

When you encounter other people and try to get them to recognize you as yourself and accept you as that self, your shrink calls it 'identity-negotiation.' Having a gender-identity that matches your physical sex is having a blue chip at the identity-negotiation table. It makes it easy for you to get most people to recognise you as who you are. Being trans is being impovershed in this way.

The finest and most desirable human traits are non-gender specific. They are better known as 'virtues'.
You will find an extensive list of virtues here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtues#Virtues_and_values
Many virtues are thought of as feminine, others masculine - yet it is possible for one to possess all or most of these character traits regardless of one's sex or gender. Hmmm... perhaps I should have said "despite one's sex or gender". :icon_wink:

-Emerald  :icon_mrgreen:

Quote from: Pica Pica on May 16, 2007, 05:28:01 PM
And if there are not, is the struggle for gender identity just the struggle for expressing these universal traits in gender specific ways?

Subject question answer, No. This was tried in Louann Brizendine's book, "The Female Brain", and was roundly criticized by many behavioral specialists who challenged her evidence as unsubstantiated or old. Several cited numerous studies which have shown there are no gender/sex specific behaviors. This is partly because those are culture/society specific and are quite diverse throughout the world. It's also the same question I asked people who say there are, by asking, "Name me one sex or  gender specific behavior that is 100% exclusive of the other sex or gender." I've yet to hear an answer, and I'm game to learn just one.

And to the second question, yes. We all want to be accepted, personally, socially and publically, so it's a matter of trying to balance where you're comfortable with yourself and in your expression for acceptance. But it's also why many transwomen adopt more socially acceptable feminine behavoirs and presentations for a variety of reasons. My argument is that the t-community shouldn't be pushing in that direction, but more in the way of acceptance of individual expression than some universal "rules of behavior or presentation."

Just my thoughts and $.02, and worth about as much most days.

--Susan--

I never thought there were any traits, but some people seem to think there are...but it did leave me wondering what was left for the TG community to struggle for if that idea of innate masculine/feminine behaviour was taken away...

I suppose, if freedom of expression, especially the freedom to express a deep felt identity is the main struggle, the focus that often seems to be placed on the physicality of that expression makes sense.

Quote from: Pica Pica on May 17, 2007, 06:33:27 AM
I never thought there were any traits, but some people seem to think there are...but it did leave me wondering what was left for the TG community to struggle for if that idea of innate masculine/feminine behaviour was taken away...

I suppose, if freedom of expression, especially the freedom to express a deep felt identity is the main struggle, the focus that often seems to be placed on the physicality of that expression makes sense.

I think your second point is correct, it's the freedom to be who you are and express that without fear of harrassment, abuse, discrimination, or worse, violence. That's the real struggle, than criticizing others about their degree of femininity as acceptable by the community. That struggle only alienates members to walk away and stay away.

I personally would like to see the label disappear, which I think is the longer term struggle. Why should a woman who becomes President of the Police Commission (SF) have to be known as "transgender woman"? Why not just "woman" and get on with business? Even being publically out as a woman with a transexual history isn't reason to have to carry it for their rest of one's life.

Our society seems to like keep the label (as other societies also do) for the media hype. It's the reality of being a transperson these days.

Quote from: SusanK on May 17, 2007, 08:14:05 AM

Quote from: Pica Pica on May 17, 2007, 06:33:27 AM
I never thought there were any traits, but some people seem to think there are...but it did leave me wondering what was left for the TG community to struggle for if that idea of innate masculine/feminine behaviour was taken away...

I suppose, if freedom of expression, especially the freedom to express a deep felt identity is the main struggle, the focus that often seems to be placed on the physicality of that expression makes sense.

I think your second point is correct, it's the freedom to be who you are and express that without fear of harrassment, abuse, discrimination, or worse, violence. That's the real struggle, than criticizing others about their degree of femininity as acceptable by the community. That struggle only alienates members to walk away and stay away.

I personally would like to see the label disappear, which I think is the longer term struggle. Why should a woman who becomes President of the Police Commission (SF) have to be known as "transgender woman"? Why not just "woman" and get on with business? Even being publically out as a woman with a transexual history isn't reason to have to carry it for their rest of one's life.

Our society seems to like keep the label (as other societies also do) for the media hype. It's the reality of being a transperson these days.

Actually part of it is to break the media hype and sensationalism over being transsexual.  Those who choose to be more visable and identify with being transgender or transsexual do it to break societal misconceptions over what it means to be transgender.  That is why just woman is often consciously not chosen by those who fall into the realm of transgender activist on one level or another.  While it may be the choice of somebody who goes deep stealth to do such a thing and be identified in such a way, the point in being open about your identity and identifying as trans (be it transman or transwoman), is to shatter myths, take the discussion beyond just the medical stuff, sensationalism, and ignorance regarding transsexuality.  Basically it is done so that those just to live as women, are less likely to face problems and to help society become more tolerant of gender variance, to the point where society will get beyond the trans point and understand that we are just women (or men), and that the trans thing really should not matter.  The mindset of the transactivist is very differant than those desiring deep stealth.  It is to be public about your past for the purpose progressing society.  Making society understand that a transgender person is not a drag queen/king (I am only stating this because it is a COMMON misperception), prostitute, mentally ill, or anything else negative.  A transgender person can be a professional, an activist, a professor, a lawyer, a doctor or a public figure.  It is to prove to society that the misconceptions of us, are just that misconceptions.   Until society has changed for the better, those of us who are professionals and who feel we need to progress society, feel that it is necessary to be open about who we are and who we once were, to bring greater understanding. 

I have the exact opposite mindset of somebody who desires to go deep stealth.  But I have been a professional activist my entire short career, and involved with progressive and queer activism since I was 18, before I ever really got to deal with my gender identity issues fully.  I feel it is my obligation to be an activist regarding these issues, so society one day does progress to the point where I no longer have to self identify as trans to make a point. 

Gender traits, surley if each gender does not have individual traits then being trans is abov the phisical and not the brain. Does the likes of the hormones in our bodies not make us thinj differently, that being the case how did you decide u were in t first place if not 4 gender speciffic traits.  Sorry hope im on topic.

Quote from: Lucy on May 17, 2007, 09:29:52 AM
Gender traits, surley if each gender does not have individual traits then being trans is abov the phisical and not the brain. Does the likes of the hormones in our bodies not make us thinj differently, that being the case how did you decide u were in t first place if not 4 gender speciffic traits.  Sorry hope im on topic.

Hi Lucy,
I'm wondering the same thing. It seems more people voted no than yes. If there are no specific gender traits, why do we feel the way we do?

My answer is yes. I do believe there are some traits specific to gender, they are few but revelant.

sure, that's what the whole left brain/right brain studies are about.

Maybe instead of traits, it's more thought patterns or methods of thought that are gender specific, rather than the contents of those thoughts.

Such as the way a man processes being shy is different in terms of inner method to the females...

It cant b about the body, i need to express myself. People dont always understand me because i look male. Because i am female my mind thinks differently. It cant b a nature / nurture thing cus i was borght up as a boy but i still identify as female. So Y? It cant b clothing cus i dont cross dress, it must be feminine traits. I must b a woman stuck in a mans body. On the other side of this argument. How can there not b

I voted yes...

There is exactly 1 "male trait": the feeling of being male

There is exactly 1 "female trait": the feeling of being female

All males feel male all females feel female beyond that you just have human traits with varying distributions.

I looked at the question like this, a male trait is chivalry and a female trait is modesty. Am I on the right track here or am in left field doing the blonde thinggy.

Quote from: ssindysmith on May 17, 2007, 01:42:00 PM
I looked at the question like this, a male trait is chivalry and a female trait is modesty. Am I on the right track here or am in left field doing the blonde thinggy.

perfectly correct, i had trouble explaining myself so i just went with what i had. I suppose if someone does go blond leftfield thingy then we can talk about something else. Everything is interesting (except sport).

Cool not as blonde as I thought I was :) I said yes, there many traits that separate the sexes, Chivalry, is one of my favorite male traits, my BF has this trait in abundance :) he has many others too.

So you actually have a knight? (though shining armor is quite expensive nowadays).

OMG yes he is such a sweetie, my knight and hes got some shiny metal in a few places ;)

Aaaagh, Hip Replacement...say no more.

Quote from: Amy T. on May 17, 2007, 08:50:57 AM
Actually part of it is to break the media hype and sensationalism over being transsexual...
snipped for brevity...

I have the exact opposite mindset of somebody who desires to go deep stealth.  But I have been a professional activist my entire short career, and involved with progressive and queer activism since I was 18, before I ever really got to deal with my gender identity issues fully.  I feel it is my obligation to be an activist regarding these issues, so society one day does progress to the point where I no longer have to self identify as trans to make a point. 

That's cool, thanks. The community needs both, the activists and those supporting the activists - we can't all be outspoken. I've spent enough of my career in the light of being a maverick and/or rebel, and just want now to get on with my life as quietly as possible. But I'm realistic to know that the trans label won't go away and always be a question. It's why some more public transwomen occasionally complain about the endless repititive questions about being trans.

I wish you and folks luck and care.

--Susan--

I think the struggle for gender identity is being known as a man or a woman, or neither, not the traits we express. If it was about traits alone, surgery wouldn't be necessary. *shrug*

Matt

Edit: Then again, its not just about being physically a man or woman, because those who chose to be non-op are still physically male or female, but may want to be recognized as the other gender. Its a combination of things.

I just speak for myself when I right the following things.

By traits, I am going by the assumption of being like personality traits. Not like anatomical, social, or even behavioral traits. If you do mean traits in that sense, I will change my vote to Yes.

I voted NO mainly because I dont think gender identity even if polar, has exclusivity to traits. I do think that there are such things as feminine and masculine traits.

I dont think having traits from the other genders (plural) changes your own gender (identity), unless you think, feel and believe you are that gender. But I separate gender identity from sex, expression, behavior, and social interactions.

As for gender behavior and gender expressions (walk, talk, dress), I do think many do believe there are masculine and feminine types.

I think those that break gender norms, especially public, also help themselves and others to widen and expand the behaviors open, acceptable, and available to a person.

Certainly one may not feel like they belong to their body.

Quote from: Pica Pica on May 17, 2007, 03:49:26 PM
Aaaagh, Hip Replacement...say no more.

Well no his shiny metal can be seen when he's NAKED LOL :)  >:D

Quote from: ssindysmith on May 18, 2007, 09:26:21 AM

Quote from: Pica Pica on May 17, 2007, 03:49:26 PM
Aaaagh, Hip Replacement...say no more.

Well no his shiny metal can be seen when he's NAKED LOL :)  >:D

:o I see, the king of all princes.

LOL :) yep and you gotta climb the ladder to see the Prince :)

Well, um...

This depends on what you mean by gender-specific. I can't think of a trait that is exclusively specific to either gender (assuming that one thinks there are only two genders, but let's not get distracted by that issue). However, it's obvious that some traits are more common / often stronger in one gender or the other -- witness how many of us have a history of not being able to fit in as a member of the apparent gender. Just how strong the correlation between a trait and gender has to be for one to consider it gender-specific is a matter of taste.

  Nfr

Quote from: Seshatneferw on May 19, 2007, 02:27:57 PMHowever, it's obvious that some traits are more common / often stronger in one gender or the other -- witness how many of us have a history of not being able to fit in as a member of the apparent gender.

Amen to that!

I wonder if the majority of people has a feeling that they are male, it could be that they just feel comfortable with their body.


This is an interesting question.


Cisgender men might not really think they are males, but it's just that they are born male and they don't question it and they take it as a fact, the same with cisgender women.

I question if people actively feel that they are male or female or that being a male and female is as important as some of us transsexuals think.

In terms of gender specific trait, I don't think it's what we do, it's HOW WE DO IT.

Femininity does exist and masculinity does exist but there are no words to describe them because people have different way to express their femininity and masculinity, it can be very subtle and it might not even be translatable to others. But alot of males can do very feminine things but they don't think they are being feminine doing it, so femininity and maculinity describe things that we can't agree upon on. Gender is so complex. ah.

don't know...i was sure there wasn't, but then Sindy brought chilvery up, and I also thought about sassyness.

It seems that chilvery is a male trait and sassy a female one, because it seems that a criteria that has to be met to display them is partly one of gender.

I think this is because chilvery is a term for a combination of traditionally feminine elements, like compassion, but wrapped up in a manner of acting that is traditionally masculine. Compassion by defeating the opressor.

Sasisness seems to be the other way round. Traditionally male qualities, like assertiveness wrappend in traditionally feminine ways. Assertiveness by teasingly flashing a leg.

....Made me think anyway.

Quote from: Pica Pica on May 19, 2007, 02:50:42 PM
don't know...i was sure there wasn't, but then Sindy brought chilvery up, and I also thought about sassyness.

It seems that chilvery is a male trait and sassy a female one, because it seems that a criteria that has to be met to display them is partly one of gender.

I think this is because chilvery is a term for a combination of traditionally feminine elements, like compassion, but wrapped up in a manner of acting that is traditionally masculine. Compassion by defeating the opressor.

Sasisness seems to be the other way round. Traditionally male qualities, like assertiveness wrappend in traditionally feminine ways. Assertiveness by teasingly flashing a leg.

....Made me think anyway.

If a guy was being "sassy", you wouldn't know it because society will say he is just being an ->-bleeped-<-. So i don't agree they are gender traits.

QuoteThis depends on what you mean by gender-specific. I can't think of a trait that is exclusively specific to either gender (assuming that one thinks there are only two genders, but let's not get distracted by that issue). However, it's obvious that some traits are more common / often stronger in one gender or the other -- witness how many of us have a history of not being able to fit in as a member of the apparent gender. Just how strong the correlation between a trait and gender has to be for one to consider it gender-specific is a matter of taste.

But there is the rub! Is a trait more prevalent in one gender than the other innately so, or is it institutionalized by society? If men were not taught by example, or butchies like me for example, would I innately know to behave that way? Conversely, would a self-administered femme behave modestly if she was not taught to be that way within her social circle? Because I grew up in the black culture, and women are not always taught to behave modestly in that circle. They are taught to be expressive, and view the saxon culture to be repressed.

It is for those last reasons that I have always observed that it is more acceptable within the latina or black or asian cultures, to be gender-variant than within the dominant saxon culture, and so, the rules of conduct with the gender-variant community seem to reflect that "fact."
I know that some people are reading this and going, what? She is crazy!  The Latino culture is based on machismo, and the black culture does not even recognize the homosexuality in it's midst, let alone the asian culture....but hear me out.

In the families that I have known, there is resistance surely towards a person coming out as homosexual or gender variant. But! Once that was done, the families that I knew of were much more accepting of the differences. What I observed was that it was society that treated them more shabbily, resulting in even less opportunities for employment.

But I digress. It is my opinion that what trait differences are assigned to each gender are ingrained not inborn.

Chilvery isn't a male trait and modesty isn't a female trait.  They are considered traits that belong to men and woman but only in our culture.  Male and female are terms that refer to sex - these are things that are biological.  Man and woman refer to things that are culturally defined. Gender Identity refers to whether you identify with the term "man" or "woman."

All that aside, there are such things as gender specific traits because gender is defined by culture and all cultures group things.  However, what cultures group as belonging to "man" and "woman" varies dramatically.  In some culture, assertiveness is placed under "man" and in others it is placed under "woman."  Some cultures have other categories besides "man" and "woman" but, unfortunately, American culture only has two and people who deviate from that tend to be frowned on. 

Altair,

your whole post was very well-written, and makes total sense.
I agree whole-heartedly. I am very chivalrous, even though I am female like lots of butch women. I treat women the way I'd want to be treated, or I should say, have been treated in their position.

Thundra

Quote from: Altair on May 27, 2007, 11:47:19 AM
Chilvery isn't a male trait and modesty isn't a female trait.  They are considered traits that belong to men and woman but only in our culture.  Male and female are terms that refer to sex - these are things that are biological.  Man and woman refer to things that are culturally defined. Gender Identity refers to whether you identify with the term "man" or "woman."

All that aside, there are such things as gender specific traits because gender is defined by culture and all cultures group things.  However, what cultures group as belonging to "man" and "woman" varies dramatically.  In some culture, assertiveness is placed under "man" and in others it is placed under "woman."  Some cultures have other categories besides "man" and "woman" but, unfortunately, American culture only has two and people who deviate from that tend to be frowned on. 

YES! Well done! Well said! :icon_biggrin:

-Emerald :icon_mrgreen: