Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Psychiatry expert: 'scientifically there is no such thing as transgender'

by Thaddeus Baklinski
Tue Jan 15, 2013 19:02 EST

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/psychiatry-expert-scientifically-there-is-no-such-thing-as-transgender (http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/psychiatry-expert-scientifically-there-is-no-such-thing-as-transgender)

OTTAWA, January 11, 2013 (LifeSiteNews.com) – A prominent Toronto psychiatrist has severely criticized the assumptions underlying what has been dubbed by critics as the Canadian federal government's "bathroom bill," that is, Bill C-279, a private member's bill that would afford special protection to so-called "transgender" men and women.

Dr. Joseph Berger has issued a statement saying that from a medical and scientific perspective there is no such thing as a "transgendered" person, and that terms such as "gender expression" and "gender identity" used in the bill are at the very least ambiguous, and are more an emotional appeal than a statement of scientific fact.

Berger, who is a consulting psychiatrist in Toronto and whose list of credentials establishes him as an expert in the field of mental illness, stated that people who identify themselves as "transgendered" are psychotic or simply unhappy, and pointed out that hormone therapy and surgery are not appropriate treatments for psychosis or unhappiness.

"From a scientific perspective, let me clarify what 'transgendered' actually means," Dr. Berger said, adding, "I am speaking now about the scientific perspective – and not any political lobbying position that may be proposed by any group, medical or non-medical."

Quote from: Jayr on January 16, 2013, 09:43:16 AM
Another idiot mistaking the word transsexual with transgender...awesome...
I didn't bother reading pass that..

I dont use the word transsexual...i use transgender.

While I totally disagree with the Psychiatrist and his beliefs, I understood what he meant by the word "transgender" because many medical professionals use the word transgender now...including my therapists, doctors, endo.

 ::)  So basically, all of the SCIENTIFIC studies showing a distinct difference in the size of various regions of the brain in "Trans" folks is just nonsense? All of the information "we" have about gender & sexuality is nothing but nonsense?  Its just a bunch of "unhappy people" trying to cause trouble? ::)

The sooner the AMA takes over the "Trans" domain, the better! There seems to be enough valid science showing transgender is a neurological condition verses a psychological condition, that "tools" like this should be laughed out of the room! :icon_crazy:

I guess he's entitled to his opinion.

But for something that doesn't exist, we sure go through a lot of work, grief and expense.

I also have the right to totally refuse to accept his opinion.

i am sure he has other agendas too

Quote from: Zythyra on January 16, 2013, 09:17:39 AM
Berger, who is a consulting psychiatrist in Toronto and whose list of credentials establishes him as an expert in the field of mental illness, stated that people who identify themselves as "transgendered" are psychotic or simply unhappy, and pointed out that hormone therapy and surgery are not appropriate treatments for psychosis or unhappiness.

And I suppose he's got a more successful treatment for us "unhappy" people. If so, out with it, man! We're all waiting eagerly for that new therapy and statistics that show that it works.

Quote from: Sarah Louise on January 16, 2013, 09:52:44 AM
I guess he's entitled to his opinion.

Well, yes, but he's not entitled to represent it as scientific fact. As a scientist, isn't it his duty to represent as fact only conclusions that can be backed up by evidence and observation?

First, like I said in other threads, scientifically speaking "psychiatry as practiced today" is an empiric art rather than a fact-based field of medicine, and it is quickly being repalced by a combination of neurobiology, neurology, and neuropharmacology.

This old man, whose last education was completed in 1966 has a long historical track of being a homophobe and transphobe.

see this link dating back to 1979 http://www.theinterim.com/issues/marriage-family/toronto-board-about-to-adopt-%E2%80%9Cgay%E2%80%9D-agenda/ (http://www.theinterim.com/issues/marriage-family/toronto-board-about-to-adopt-%E2%80%9Cgay%E2%80%9D-agenda/)

If any body wants to send him a good wish card, you may do so at;

4430 Bathurst Street
Suite 501 - 4430 Bathurst Street, Toronto, ON M3H 3S3

Quote from: agfrommd on January 16, 2013, 10:04:25 AM
Well, yes, but he's not entitled to represent it as scientific fact. As a scientist, isn't it his duty to represent as fact only conclusions that can be backed up by evidence and observation?

He is not a scientists, he is a psychiatrist. Psychiatry is mostly based on empirical conjunctions not in facts. The abysmal failure of psychiatry is clearly proved by their inability to cure a single mental health issue.

Most of modern mental health issues are treated by drugs: as in ADD (amphetamines), depression (serotonin re-uptake inhibitors), etc., etc,

Well, he's not even a psychiatrist. Google search for "joseph berger" and psychiatrist. No hits. Changed to "berger joseph", also no hits. Tried both combos with Toronto (but not psychiatrist). Again, no hits. Can't be as prominent a psychiatrist as the article claims.

Also, it appears the article has been taken down from the original site even though a link still appears on the front page.

The site seems to be a right wing religious propaganda site designed to spread fear and suspicion about LGBT.

He's apparently written for NARTH too. No surprise there. He claims to have never seen a single case of innate homosexuality too. He's one of those kind of dr. people, the one's with their head in the sand.

 :icon_poke:

I may be a Trans Person, but I suspect I have more "Grace" in my little toe than most of these hard core religious frauds! These "people" lie day in & day out to advance their agenda. They will smear anyone & everyone to make themselves feel good. I figure that when I "meet my maker", I will be able to express that as flawed as I was, I tried to be a good, honest, & decent Human being! Yeah, I used man made hormones to change my body to fit my mind, but I tried in every way possible to be a force for "GOOD" whenever I had a chance! :eusa_pray:

So I look to this old man for any peer-review publications IN THE MEDICAL DATABASES, and I can only come up with one dating back to 94.

A couple of things worth noting about his paper:

First, his paper is published in the "American Journal of Psychotherapists" not the most scientifically rigorously publication. AJP is sort of clearing house for psychological therapists rather than a journal for MD-level research

Second, note that he does not have any association with any medical or  academic organization. he does not have any teaching post or is member of any hospital at the time of this publication Nor I believe he has any now.

Third, his conclusions are based solely on his observations

Fourth, his speculation that: "A possible aetiological factor that has not been mentioned before in the literature is discussed, namely, the abortion of a pregnancy caused by the male patient that may have led to his "coming out" or declaring his homosexuality" is PROPSTEROUS! JUST THIS STAEMENT MAKES ME THINK THIS IS A MAD MAN SPEAKING...A CERTIFIABLE LUNATIC

Am J Psychother. 1994 Spring;48(2):251-61.
The psychotherapeutic treatment of male homosexuality.
Berger J.
Abstract
This paper discusses aspects of the aetiology and treatment of male homosexuality, a topic that has become quite controversial in recent years. The paper is based on material from the author's patients, and also notes the contributions of others. In spite of many reports of successful treatment outcomes, some people continue to deny such results. This paper confirms that such patients can indeed be understood and treated successfully. A possible aetiological factor that has not been mentioned before in the literature is discussed, namely, the abortion of a pregnancy caused by the male patient that may have led to his "coming out" or declaring his homosexuality. Three main conclusions are reached. First, that some people who have had homosexual fantasies, behaviors, or identified themselves as homosexual, can become comfortably and fulfillingly heterosexual with psychotherapeutic treatment. Second, that human sexuality is not rigidly compartmentalized into either hetero- or homosexuality but varies on a continuous spectrum, and is affected in any individual by psychodynamic influences. Third, that before "coming out," young people, especially teenagers, should have the opportunity to explore their sexual identity with a psychodynamically oriented psychotherapist

Lost me at "treatment of homosexuality."   I don't think doctors that believe in or pursue such things will ever be taken seriously by the public.  They exist solely as a political tool for the lunatic fringe.

I think the base of his argument is,

"Bring me your money"

You copied an article from life site news and expected it to be accurate?? It's a right wing christian news site with a history of being anti-gay, anti-trans, etc. They use the web site to publish propaganda papers (I mean fake scientific studies) in hopes that other new outlets will deep link to this story like google news. If there is no such thing as transgender, then where is the real peer reviewed science? Then it can be debated, until then he's just another kook. Sometimes I swear that a college diploma and credentials makes one "stunningly" stupid instead of just goddam stupid.

NARTH, now there's a scientific and respected group!
NOT.

--Jay

Haven't they already cut transgender people's brains open and confirmed differences in neurons or whatever?

Yeah, and let me tell you, it stings something awful!

Quote from: agfrommd on January 16, 2013, 10:54:56 AM
Well, he's not even a psychiatrist. Google search for "joseph berger" and psychiatrist. No hits. Changed to "berger joseph", also no hits. Tried both combos with Toronto (but not psychiatrist). Again, no hits. Can't be as prominent a psychiatrist as the article claims.

I googled him and got a ton of hits. That doesn't mean he knows what he's doing, of course, but he's hardly a phantom.

Well for a moment he had me worried but this google search below rapidly confirms he is the same generation as the  doctors who made my childhood a living hell peddling their guesswork theories and abusing their status as medics.  I feel entirely justifed in ignoring anything the old quack has to say. The sooner that age group f*** off and die learn to accept that their knowledge is out of date, profoundly damaging and dangerous the better. My dad is one of them I am ashamed to say.

I love the fact he claims knowledge of how to treat something for which he himself cannot identify a physical cause.

I'm surprised he's not prescribing leeches and good bleeding TBH

http://www.google.co.uk/search?source=ig&hl=en-GB&rlz=1G1SVEC_EN-GBUK520&q=Dr.+Joseph+Berger+&btnG=Google+Search#hl=en&tbo=d&rlz=1G1SVEC_EN-GBUK520&sclient=psy-ab&q=Dr.+Joseph+Berger+toronto&oq=Dr.+Joseph+Berger+toronto&gs_l=serp.3..0i30.13853.16630.0.17316.8.3.0.5.5.0.515.999.2-2j5-1.3.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.nE5mgWl6qF8&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.41018144,d.d2k&fp=2600945df5254def&biw=1243&bih=460 (http://www.google.co.uk/search?source=ig&hl=en-GB&rlz=1G1SVEC_EN-GBUK520&q=Dr.+Joseph+Berger+&btnG=Google+Search#hl=en&tbo=d&rlz=1G1SVEC_EN-GBUK520&sclient=psy-ab&q=Dr.+Joseph+Berger+toronto&oq=Dr.+Joseph+Berger+toronto&gs_l=serp.3..0i30.13853.16630.0.17316.8.3.0.5.5.0.515.999.2-2j5-1.3.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.nE5mgWl6qF8&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.41018144,d.d2k&fp=2600945df5254def&biw=1243&bih=460)

Leeches have their uses. Berger, not so much.

True. Maggots as well. And maybe one day a constructive use for bigotted old men.

Quote from: Sarah Louise on January 16, 2013, 09:52:44 AM
I guess he's entitled to his opinion.

A scientist and scientific approach has to base arguments on study and support with evidence, not opinion, so he should know better and should be held accountable.  Grrr! :-)

Yep.

Quote from: Snickerdoodle on January 16, 2013, 09:57:52 AM
So I guess I don't exist? Am I a ghost or something?

Cool. I guess that means I could haunt the fool.

Snickerdoodle, I LOVE your statement! Hey, we can form the "International Transgender Ghost Society" and gain the attention of the paranormal research / TV show industry so we can be seen haunting all the people like this Psych doc!

Maybe they are too stupid to be able to recognize facts and simply want to select what they want to believe in as the truth.

  There is a "write a review" on the link above.  I am tempted, boy I am tempted!

  Joelene

Quote from: crazy at the coast on January 16, 2013, 11:25:00 AM
He's one of those kind of dr. people, the one's with their head in the sand.

I think his head may be some place else warm and dark.

Quote from: Anna on January 17, 2013, 01:13:14 PM
Well for a moment he had me worried but this google search below rapidly confirms he is the same generation as the  doctors who made my childhood a living hell peddling their guesswork theories and abusing their status as medics.  I feel entirely justifed in ignoring anything the old quack has to say.

Like you and I suspect, others, I too went through the hands of a regeime that believed they could correct an abnormality like homosexuality. It seemed to be based around a belief that the problem was an inadequate ego. Wanting to be a girl was just an extension, rather than a separate or distinct situation, since any male who wanted be be a female was obviously attempting to climb down the social ladder!

Their approach was to put me and a succession of other young men, into an environment, with a majority of young women our age. Most of these young women were there by sentence of the courts. When conflicts inevitably occured it was because we weren't responding, our bad behaviour.

The best we can say is that this sort of thing is becoming increasingly rare. Indeed, the sort of attitudes that created it are often seen as backward or unprofessional now. That at least is a plus. It doesn't help us very much.

We can be thankful, at least, we didn't live in earlier times. The struggles of each generation are the product or our own resolution. I didn't give up and you clearly didn't. When we see the utter joy of brave little girls such as Jazz, or successful adults such as Dr Marcia Bowers, taking on the world and making a difference. We played a small part in that just by being.

That's not too bad and if this populist relic doesn't like it he knows what he can do!

He can wave his magical pixie wand all he wants but we won't disappear. It'll just attract the supreme wrath of the APA. :P

That's all right, Dr. Berger--I don't believe in you, either.

Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on January 16, 2013, 06:59:28 PM
Haven't they already cut transgender people's brains open and confirmed differences in neurons or whatever?

One of the major studies about gender identity and brain anatomy was a postmortem study in which the researchers looked at the size of a brain area called the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BNST). It tends to be smaller in cisgender females and larger in cisgender males. They found that trans women's BNST was a better match in size with cis women's, and the one trans man they looked at had a BNST that was much larger (closer to cis male). There are some issues with the study (small sample size, not necessarily the best controls), but it's still a really cool result. You can read the study here (http://tgmeds.org.uk/diffa.html).

Also, seconding the notion that even if this is a real psychiatrist, he is NOT a scientist and carries zero weight on this issue. You do not have to know anything about gender identity to be a psychiatrist, not to mention that doctors and psychiatrists are also absolutely not scientists.

Quote from: Arch on January 16, 2013, 07:07:34 PM
I googled him and got a ton of hits. That doesn't mean he knows what he's doing, of course, but he's hardly a phantom.

I get the feeling that this guy is a shill for big pharma, the psychiatric
establishment and the medical industry.

Scientifically his opinion doesn't matter any more then the next persons.

A quick google says that he's a member of NARTH. I don't know if I can give any credibility to a guy who believes in ex-gay therapy

Quote from: sappho on March 15, 2013, 02:56:19 AM
A quick google says that he's a member of NARTH. I don't know if I can give any credibility to a guy who believes in ex-gay therapy

This just further proves that he is not a scientist. I'll be lame and quote from the Wikipedia article because it summarizes my point well: "NARTH's leaders disagree with the global scientific consensus, the holding of the world's major mental health organizations, and scientific research into the topic which show that homosexuality is not a disorder." It's like arguing that the sun orbits the earth.

Most of our existence is what it is because it has been defined into existence in some legal legislative action, academic dictionary, or scientific or legal journal or and these terms have been accepted by the scientific and legal communities.   This is especially true of this gentleman's profession.   Transgender, gender identity, heterosexual, male, and female and as well as definitions of all of the attributes of each exist within the scientific and legal literature so for practical purposes have a reality.   If all legal and scientific literature were to go poof and vanish from existence then our very conceptual existence would vanish also.   

This man must be an idiot for not knowing this.   Transgenders exist because we exist and the scientific, medical, and  academic community in some part uses the word transgender to label our condition so all of those concerned can communicate about us.

One individual cannot define us out of existence because of his prejudices because one individual by himself or herself can not create an academic language.   One individual can contribute his or her definitions of concepts to their academic community, but the the community as a whole has to accept and assimilate these definitions for them to mean anything.

When one is in grade school, high school, and undergraduate school one is taught that the world is as it is.   When one goes on to get a master's degree one learns that the world is as the PHD's within the academic field define it and the legal system has legislated it into law, rules, and regulations.     

What would a psychiatrist know about science. Everything they do is a joke of a science.

Interesting and I agree.

The word 'transgender' actually loses its meaning since so many MTF are so very masculine (by nature)

Quote from: Dahlia on March 16, 2013, 03:57:07 PM
Interesting and I agree.

The word 'transgender' actually loses its meaning since so many MTF are so very masculine (by nature)

I assume you are agreeing with the psychiatrist's observations reported in the article:

Dr. Joseph Berger has issued a statement saying that from a medical and scientific perspective there is no such thing as a "transgendered" person, and that terms such as "gender expression" and "gender identity" used in the bill are at the very least ambiguous, and are more an emotional appeal than a statement of scientific fact.

Berger, who is a consulting psychiatrist in Toronto and whose list of credentials establishes him as an expert in the field of mental illness, stated that people who identify themselves as "transgendered" are psychotic or simply unhappy, and pointed out that hormone therapy and surgery are not appropriate treatments for psychosis or unhappiness.

Did I understand you correctly?