Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I just had a thought on prenatal screening. Since it can be used to detect chromosmal abornmalities, could it be used to prevent all intersex babies from being brought to term? Could they one day even detect if a baby is a transgender or homosexual and then decide "hey we don't want a baby that's like that"

Just wondering if anyone has ever considered that possibility.

http://intersexandthecity.blogspot.com/2010/07/anti-intersex-drugs.html (http://intersexandthecity.blogspot.com/2010/07/anti-intersex-drugs.html)

That article there hints at that for sure:

QuoteA medical paper published recently in Australia recommended prenatal screening for congenital adrenal hyperplasia female fetus's and treating them with dexamethasone to prevent "behavioral masculization" including "same sex attraction and tom boy type behaviors" (there is a much higher statistical rate of both in CAH girls).

If you can terminate a pregnancy just because it's inconvenient, what's the big deal? If it's not a human life, it shouldn't matter.  It's just a mass of cells with fingers, toes, a head and a heart beat. Is that little non-human special just because it's gay, trans male or female?

Oh it doesn't have to go that far, some people will terminate a baby just because it's a girl.

Quote from: JessicaH on January 22, 2013, 11:32:23 AM
If you can terminate a pregnancy just because it's inconvenient, what's the big deal? If it's not a human life, it shouldn't matter.  It's just a mass of cells with fingers, toes, a head and a heart beat. Is that little non-human special just because it's gay, trans male or female?

Well thanks for telling me I don't exist, my mom wanted me to be aborted too. Sorry but I don't agree with terminating a pregnancy, just because of what people call "defects". Other reasons are understandable though.

I think Jessica was being sarcastic, not deriding you.

Hard to tell that from just text, so I am not sure what to think yet.

It was pretty obvious to me.

I guess the issues boils down to, whats really a defect and what is actually just who someone is what they are supposed to be. I used to think that having breasts and a micro penis was a defect, until about 2001 when i tried to learn about intersex conditions and was asking for a test, when i finally got my tests in 2012 , it opened up a whole new world for me. I am thus become very educated about intersex people.

I know I am meant to be transgender and intersex now, I know that Annah has told me she feels she is meant to be who she is as well.

If we oh lets 100 years in the future only allowed perfect binary cisgender heterosexual people to be born, that would be a scary place and maybe even very dull.

I believe there was a critically acclaimed play (and at least a few novels) written about this, at least they were written specifically back when the "gay gene" was in the news and people were speculating about whether early detection would lead to screening and abortions. While you can't rule something like this out, in reality, many people have considerable difficulty making a decision to abort, and few would tend to do so for non-life-threatening reasons.

You can take the fairly absolutist position the Catholic church tends to take, and forbid most if not all reproductive assists and procedures. That would have the benefit of making it harder to enable such choices in the first place. I'm not sure it would help things though.

When I look at things like this, I remind myself that, for example, if there is some day a way to objectively determine that a fetus is transgendered but not likely to show obvious outward signs of it in their genitalia, that the net result is likely to be a dawning realization of how unwise and unjust it is to coercively assign a gender at birth. That needs to change one of these days, and the more we come to know about natural diversity, the greater the hope that people will just learn to embrace those differences and leave everyone with a lot less anxiety and a better range of choices in life.

Perhaps it might lead to a society where transgendered people feel less need to risk major changes, or if that feeling does persist, the stigma attached will become no greater than the stigma attached to other forms of plastic surgery, or HRT done to cope with menopause, etc?  Who knows? It's speculation, after all, at least for now.

Hopefully, it would lead to some more public debate, and maybe that in turn would lead to mothers like yours changing their thinking when it comes to cruelly and heartlessly saying things about wishing their children hadn't been born. Her sense of shame and what allows her to say that must be doing almost as much damage to her as it has done to you.

My one year older sibling was IS, birth certificate says female, death certificate says male.  Lived a while, but never left the hospital.

Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on January 22, 2013, 12:09:41 PM
Well thanks for telling me I don't exist, my mom wanted me to be aborted too. Sorry but I don't agree with terminating a pregnancy, just because of what people call "defects". Other reasons are understandable though.

All I said was that if it's not considered "life" and it's just a "choice", it's none of anyone's business WHY a woman wants to abort.  I would find it highly hypocritical for someone to be "pro-choice" but suddenly get all morally offended because they don't like the mothers reason.  Inconvenient is fine but don't want a gay or trans kid?  What if the kid only has an average IQ? 

The flip side, if you knew your child had the gene for TS, you could also raise them in a more supportive manner. Genetic testing can be a real "Pandora's Box"...

QuoteThe flip side, if you knew your child had the gene for TS, you could also raise them in a more supportive manner.

Yes this is true, but what do to about it if you can know before they are out of the womb? I think it would be good in some ways like you would be prepared on how to deal with it better or be able to talk about it your child and ask them if they want to transition or have surgery.

Or do you just do all this correcting at birth, or before in the womb somehow? (when sciences advances that far)

They already try to do it with intersex babies, and yet Doctors still get it wrong as far as surgery and hrt goes. Kind of a conundrum.

I found another intersex person who sees prenatal screening and aborting babies just because they are intersex as a serious problem:

QuoteIntersex tragedies – abortion, surgically "fixing" babies

It is tragic enough that parents are now routinely counselled to abort intersex babies but what is done to surgically "fix" them when they are born is another horrendous assault on their humanity! We intersex survivors of this eugenics-inspired attempted genocide demand that present and future intersex people be recognized as a legal class, no less than males or females, who have the same rights, including the right to determine whether we keep our gonads and genitalia or not. Even as an adult I was required to have my female organs, including my androgen-producing gonads, removed to get a driver's licence that said male to match my hairy face.

So, both intersex infants and adults are forced, in America today, to have surgeries for legal and social reasons that have nothing to do with their health or desired life. This barbaric treatment of intersex people is rooted in homophobia and fearful religious superstition.

We are not evil creations of the devil and threats to the natural or moral order of our nation and the universe! We are a normal, rather common part of the natural order and just as capable of being good tax-paying, contributing citizens as anyone else. It is far past time that we intersex people had a seat at the American Family Table too. We are not ashamed to be who we are, and we will not allow others to continue to shame us into secrecy, invisibility and silence anymore.

Thank you for taking the time to read this letter.

David M. Sherman aka Tridandi Sannyasi and Siksha Master Bhakti Ananda Goswami

Tolerance and Diversity Spokesperson, Organization Intersex International – OII
Former Executive Committee Member, World Hindu Organization, Kathmandu, Nepal
Retired Head of Interfaith Research and Communications, World Vaishnava Association, Vrindavan India

http://oiiusa.org/ (http://oiiusa.org/)

If abortion is morally acceptable in certain situations, but not in others, then what makes it okay in those situations? 

If abortion is not morally acceptable in general because life begins at conception, then when is it not murder?  Is murder okay in the case of incest or rape?  If one's position is that life begins at conception, then abortion is not morally acceptable in any situation, whether or not genetic testing determines an aberration.

If abortion is morally acceptable because life begins at breach (or whereever the line is drawn), then the aborting of the baby at any time for any reason is morally acceptable, even if genetic testing determines an aberration.  It would fall under the mother's choice. 

A person kinda has to choose one way or the other; a person can't just pick and choose to satisfy their conscience or for the sake of convenience.  If abortion is completely a woman's choice, then no one has the right within this hypothetical situation to tell her she's wrong just because she wants to abort a TG, gay, intersex, or whatever.  If you believe abortion is morally acceptable, you're doing this mother great harm in not giving her all the tools she needs to make an informed decision if any type of testing is available.

Sorry, but if abortion is morally acceptable, then no person has any right to judge whether or not their own mother made the right decision.  They should just be thankful that she chose life.  If she doesn't want to raise someone with gender "issues", that's none of anyone's business until after that baby is born.  I guess if or when that testing becomes available, we could always blame our mothers for not aborting us and forcing us to deal with these issues.

Like Jessica said, if someone's going to preach pro-choice, it's fairly hypocritical to withhold information or to deny the mother that choice.  Pro-choice means that the fetus/baby/child/human being within the womb gets no choice, no say in the matter.  It all lies within the mother's hands. 

Well it is still a bad choice, I don't care. I would have not existed if my mom was able to find out I would have been born intersex.
Any mother who terminates a pregnancy for this reason will not have my respect.

I'm more of the opinion that we should worry about those who are actually born. For example, I'm dead against surgically altering baby's genitals unless there is a legitimate health concern (infection, etc), because that has affected a number of people very negatively throughout their life.

I do think it's wrong to abort a baby because it's intersex, transgender, gay, or anything else that a parent may consider "undesirable"? But more because it reflects their real world views - there is no way you can abort a baby for being gay, for example, and then live your life in a manner where you treat all gay people as your equal. But it's not the actual abortion issue itself as I am pro-choice; it's the implications of what that abortion means that troubles me.

Quote from: Incarnadine on January 24, 2013, 12:26:56 AM
A person kinda has to choose one way or the other

No they don't. Forcing an extremely sick and suffering baby with only a few years to live to endure it just because is very different from throwing away 80 years of a helpless but perfectly healthy fetus. So is forcing an emotionally and mentally traumatized woman to carry her psycho-attacker's baby as opposed to a woman who just messed up with her boyfriend and doesn't feel ready to take on motherhood. Things are not simple and people aren't obligated to agree on every detail of an issue. (I'm pro-choice btw)

Yeah i think this goes past the point of being a pro-choice issue, and reflects the implications of what that abortion means, that troubles me too.

I also think doctors should stop trying to assign sex and perform surgeries on babies they cannot completely say as male or female.

But there could be a good side to prenatal screening, if we could determine a transgender brain as well, then the baby could be corrected in the womb to have the body that reflects the brain. However for intersex people, some feel like they are in between male and female anyways, some feel male or female.

Prenatal screening for genetic disorders is a slippery slope to go down.  Especially if something shows up that could detrimental.  Downs syndrome, physical birth defects, Intersex, transsexual, gay and anything else.

Doctors assign sex upon examination, prenatal screening won't stop that.  It could lead to genetic experimentation and creating some new superhuman.

For general heath it would be a good idea, but beyond that it is only opening the doors to man creating a monster.

Quote from: Caleb. on January 24, 2013, 12:52:07 AM
I do think it's wrong to abort a baby because it's ... anything else that a parent may consider "undesirable"?

If it's the mother's body and therefore her choice, which is what is trumpeted as the reason why abortion is considered legal, then what business is it of anyone what she determines is a good enough reason?  Either it's a life or it's not a life.  If it's not a life, then why do people want to crawl up inside her womb and take away her choice?  If she wants to abort for eugenics or for convenience, it's still her womb and her choice, right?

However, if the baby is a life, then the reason for the abortion does not matter.  I don't want to hi-jack a thread to argue pro-life vs. pro-choice here; but the position of the pro-choice voice is that it is the mother's body, so it's her choice.  If abortion is okay for convenience ("we don't want the teen mother to suffer the rest of her life, so we recommend abortion"), then it is okay for small-scale eugenics ("we don't want these features, so we recommend abortion").

There's one doctor ...  name escapes me at the moment and I have no time to Google it ... that either was trying or had actually come up with a drug to give pregnant women to prevent trans*/gay babies.

There's also a eugenics movement that exists out in the world.

And of course there's people who feel that a women should be able to abort at any time.

My point is, there's a lot of what I personally feel is pretty awful people and ideas out in the world. And where do people draw lines? There's personal lines and there's legal lines of course. What dictates where the lines are drawn? Who's morals are the basis? The morals of a eugenicist are vastly different from someone who's not, etc. etc.

Debates can rage on till infinity but it's not going to change the realities of some things that go on, especially when it comes down to other people's personal choices or any time someone can circumvent a law.

Quote from: insideontheoutside on February 19, 2013, 01:13:41 PM
There's one doctor ...  name escapes me at the moment and I have no time to Google it ... that either was trying or had actually come up with a drug to give pregnant women to prevent trans*/gay babies.

Are you thinking of Maria New?  There may be a few others as well, based on the handful of somewhat conflicting reports (http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1996453,00.html). The drug in question seems to be  getting prescribed mainly to parents who know they are at risk of passing CAH on to a child, though more controversial is whether the drug being given effective, safe and whether New has taken shortcuts in not disclosing things (something I can't evaluate from these reports, but they are all valid concerns, I would think).

This was news to me, and I haven't had time yet to process everything that's being said about this.

Other articles, mainly from the gay press/blogosphere:

Dan Savage's The Stranger (http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2010/06/29/doctor-treating-pregnant-women-with-experimental-drug-to-prevent-lesbianism)
Ex-Christian.net (http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/39334-florida-doctor-treats-pregnant-women-with-drug-to-prevent-gay-babies/)
GayStar News (http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/doctors-using-drugs-prevent-lesbian-and-intersex-babies060812)

Dr. New's Mt. Sinai profile (http://www.mountsinai.org/profiles/maria-i-new).

Just to play Devil's Advocate, it seems to me the chances of a mishap from such pre-natal dosing may put her career at risk in the long run, and, if parents come to regret their choices, it might ultimately be a good thing. People are responsible for their choices, and they do suffer consequences when things are done for reasons they might later regret.

Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on January 22, 2013, 10:09:47 AM
I just had a thought on prenatal screening. Since it can be used to detect chromosmal abornmalities, could it be used to prevent all intersex babies from being brought to term? Could they one day even detect if a baby is a transgender or homosexual and then decide "hey we don't want a baby that's like that"

tecnically yes, this is one of the reason why people dont know 100% what cause people to be trans or gay.
even when people do science on this alot of people also refuse because there scared of the consuquenses.

to prove your born gay, could prove its "natural",
but it could also point out facts so you could abort it, or make medicin to cure it.

some wierd lady have tried to make me go into experients for being transgender where they would test my brain, But I have refused cause im unsure whatever its really to make it for the better, expecially since the doctor who talked to me seamed abit crazy. I do belive it would be alot more easy to adopt or find cure for homosexual kids than transexuals, as people arnt that sure about gender and the brain yet but seams more sure on the sexualety center, but I dont know enough to be sure of that.
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I havent read the article but I thinks is a sad world we live in with people fellings its fine to abort and make surgery on intersex just like that.

i'm not agenst abortion in general, but I am agenst how people just can "pick and take" children.
I understand for something deathly or very serious, but I feel the modern world have started to get abit to spoiled, -__-

Prochoice or prolife? When does life begin? What's normal or abnormal?

From a spiritual standpoint, why would an all knowing God allow a Soul into a fetus that will be aborted? Or from my standpoint and spirituality why would a Soul choose a fetus that will be aborted? So if you ask me prochoice or prolife, I really can't answer, only the person that chooses either or can. But when it comes to aborting a fetus, all consequences of the mother need to be addressed such as psychological probems down the line and so on.

As for aborting a fetus for genetic"defects" though, it is a scary thought. Just look at Hitler's ideals and believe me there are plenty of possible "hitlers" out there.

Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on January 24, 2013, 12:57:28 AMBut there could be a good side to prenatal screening, if we could determine a transgender brain as well, then the baby could be corrected in the womb to have the body that reflects the brain. However for intersex people, some feel like they are in between male and female anyways, some feel male or female.

That might be great for a lot of transsexuals, since transitioning is often a very difficult thing to go through, but I kind of feel like changing someone's sex at birth might go wrong, just as surgery on intersex people as infants has. To my knowledge, they haven't entirely figured out why people are trans, but I know that they've found that with sexual orientation, a variety of factors (including, but not limited to genetics) can have an affect on it. I definitely don't think that there's a single "trans gene" that either you have or don't, that would make you either transsexual or cisgender, because people aren't always one thing or the other. You don't have to be intersex to feel like you're not 100% male or female.

Just like surgically assigning intersex people to one gender or another soon after birth, performing SRS on a baby comes with the same essential problem: You're making a huge life decision for another person before they can have any input as to what they want. Not every transgender person goes for SRS or HRT, and I think they should be able to make that decision for themselves.

*deleted by Beth Andrea*