Susan's Place Transgender Resources

So I know from everything I have read that hormones don't make you shorter since I am transitioning to female but I have noticed otherwise. I have always been in between 6'1-6'2 since I was 18, couple years ago but this morning when I was measured, the nurse said I was 5'11. I was pretty shocked to be honest because I don't remember the last time I was under 6'0. So could it be possible that the hormones caused this or is this clearly impossible and some other weird event?

<3 Emma

Completely possible. I went from 5'10" to 5'8" within just under 4 months on HRT. Albeit, I am athletic and my physician thought this was due to changes in the connective tissue between the bones, especially the spine as it relates to the effects from estrogen versus saturated with testosterone. I think you will find many of the women on here with similar experiences. My shoe size also went from a women's 10 at the beginning of HRT to now an 8. I love it, especially getting to buy new shoes and clothes!

Interesting because I've been on hormones for just under 4 months and apparently lost 2 inches of height as of now but I haven't measured my feet but I seriously hope they get smaller, size 14 in womens in not fun when you like cute shoes :'(

If I stand 'like a girl' with my spine more curved then I lost a whole inch!! However, last time I went to the doctor and stood up straight with my back perfectly against the wall I hadn't lost any height at all. I've been on Estrogen for two years :)

Hmm that's really interesting, I only measure myself when I stand straight and there is definitely a difference now, so I guess height change could be something rare "ish" in transition or based on your genetics or something else.

For some the pelvic tilt takes a little.  I think the discs in the spine shrink just a little each.  I've shrunk about 1-1/2" over the last 4 years. Of course that could be old age.  But I've heard of many MtF loosing an inch or two.

Alas, shoe size has not changed.....

I've gone from 5'5 3/4" to just a slight touch under 5'3".

Shoes went from a 9 mens to an 8 (and some 7 1/2) in womens.

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Seems possible but unexplained and contested.

Anyhow, I certainly hope it happens to me. Good news are always good, especially when your feet are so wide and high you'd have to wear like 2 sizes longer in most normal shoes for the height to fit. Feeling like you're walking with giant's shoes is a priceless amount of frustration.

Quote from: muuu on January 25, 2013, 11:34:37 PM
Apparently, according to another forum, you lose cartilage cells, which would reduce the size of cartilage areas. I guess some part of those spinal discs are made out of cartilage, so I assume that's why height is affected. Though, I don't think it explains why some peoples feet shrink... maybe that's because of muscle reduction.

Now, that would be a painful affair for most MTF who claim to have shrunken some inches on hormones, wouldn't it?

Oh, wait, no, they don't complain about having pain, their height is just magically shrunken because of HRT....or is it just wishful thinking or maybe a case of wild imagination perhaps?

HRT can cause osteopororis over the years/decades and it's no fun!

But magically shrinking because of HRT?

Well,  the sad news is you're gonna be perceived by others as taller/bigger/longer...as a (passable) woman.

Cismen are taller, with a bigger head (the headsize won't shrink while on HRT...), bigger shoulders, a wider trunk etc than ciswomen.

Results in being perceived as taller/bigger/longer when living as a woman.

And no, your feet won't shrink magically because of HRT but  yes: your shoesize will increase over the years, because walking and standing on them will 'spread' your feet.

Happens to cismen and women too, over the years/decades.

Quote from: Dahlia on January 26, 2013, 07:58:40 AM

Now, that would be a painful affair for most MTF who claim to have shrunken some inches on hormones, wouldn't it?

Oh, wait, no, they don't complain about having pain, their height is just magically shrunken because of HRT....or is it just wishful thinking or maybe a case of wild imagination perhaps?

HRT can cause osteopororis over the years/decades and it's no fun!

But magically shrinking because of HRT?

Well,  the sad news is you're gonna be perceived by others as taller/bigger/longer...as a (passable) woman.

Cismen are taller, with a bigger head (the headsize won't shrink while on HRT...), bigger shoulders, a wider trunk etc than ciswomen.

Results in being perceived as taller/bigger/longer when living as a woman.

And no, your feet won't shrink magically because of HRT but  yes: your shoesize will increase over the years, because walking and standing on them will 'spread' your feet.

Happens to cismen and women too, over the years/decades.

Who said any of the changes are magical?

Fat can stop being stored certain places (bottom of feet), causing you to appear smaller. Ligaments can shrink, bringing bones closer together. The natural tilt of the pelvis can change, creating a natural arch in your lower back and making you appear shorter. There's an explanation to some of it.

I was about 6'3" and shrunk about an inch early on.  I haven't measured myself in a long time.  I would have to shrink 6 more inches to lose my giraffe status and I haven't, so it seems like not much point.

My feet on the other hand went from size 11.5-12 in mens, idk what the women's analog for that is, down to 10-10.5 (mens to keep it simple.)  It is possible that I was just wearing the wrong size though, but I don't think so.

Quote from: TessaM on January 26, 2013, 08:44:46 AM
i wont doubt people who have claimed to lose height as I hear it quite often, but I actually went form 5'5- 5'8. Well, according to my license anyways...

It probable had nothing to do with the HRT your still young and people can still grow into their twenties.

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on January 26, 2013, 08:42:28 AM
Who said any of the changes are magical?

Fat can stop being stored certain places (bottom of feet), causing you to appear smaller. Ligaments can shrink, bringing bones closer together. The natural tilt of the pelvis can change, creating a natural arch in your lower back and making you appear shorter. There's an explanation to some of it.

I've never heard post menopausal ciswomen on HRT tell the same...nor post hysterectomy ciswomen btw.

Only some MTF on HRT.

The goal of going on HRT for post-menopausal women is stasis, not to have radical changes happen to the physical makeup of their bodies.  There have been theories about why HRT can make some trans women shrink a little bit, cartilidge, pelvic tilt, things like that.

Quote from: Dahlia on January 26, 2013, 09:52:12 AM
I've never heard post menopausal ciswomen on HRT tell the same...nor post hysterectomy ciswomen btw.

Only some MTF on HRT.

Post menopausal women don't stop producing testosterone (and most likely never were producing nearly as much as we have in our life). Our changes come from either a lack of testosterone, or the changes brought on by estrogen that has never been present in the first place.

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on January 26, 2013, 11:02:46 AM
Post menopausal women don't stop producing testosterone (and most likely never were producing nearly as much as we have in our life). Our changes come from either a lack of testosterone, or the changes brought on by estrogen that has never been present in the first place.

So, FTM start growing taller while on testo?

I think this shrinking from estrogen is just wishful thinking.

How else would you explain the change then?

Quote from: EmmaS on January 26, 2013, 01:47:32 PM
How else would you explain the change then?

Wishful thinking. Besides that: shrinking in height will make your head, shoulder, torso etc look bigger.

I know several dozens MTF in real life and not one of them claims to have shrunken in height.

Several of them say they're considered as tall women whereas they were short men before....while being still the same height.

Just a matter of perception.

Quote from: Dahlia on January 26, 2013, 01:51:35 PM
Wishful thinking. Besides that: shrinking in height will make your head, shoulder, torso etc look bigger.

Why are you so doubtful when so many people report changes? I personally have shrank 5cm and lost 2 shoe sizes, and I have measured myself consistantly for the last 15months.

Prehaps you should remain quiet if all you can say are unsubstantiated things and repeating "Wishful thinking", when others have given possible explanations for the shrinking, and confirmed they have experienced it.

Quote from: RachelH on January 26, 2013, 01:58:03 PM
Why are you so doubtful when so many people report changes? I personally have shrank 5cm and lost 2 shoe sizes, and I have measured myself consistantly for the last 15months.

I'm 26 years on hormones and  have shrunken 1 1/2 cm due to osteopeny, the stadium before osteoporosis.

You'd better see a doctor if you shrank 5cm(!!) in height in only such a short time span.

Shrinking feet.....utter nonsense!  ;D

My shoesize increased with  1 full size over 26 years; I went from shoesize 41 to 42.

This happens because standing and walking on your feet makes them 'spread' and thus 'grow' bigger over the years/decades.

Just like happens to  cismen and ciswomen over the years.

Only some MTF claim their feet have shrunken (2 sizes in 15 months??!?!)

Wishful thinking can lead to a reality disorder...

Quote from: RachelH on January 26, 2013, 01:58:03 PM
Why are you so doubtful when so many people report changes?

This is the internet, remember?
I haven't read any scientific evidence...and so  can  I report I was born a baby boy with a cup size EE...before HRT....for instance.
Or Santaclause lives on the moon.

Or roses growing in the desert....etc.

But of course I won't claim silly things like that....it could give  some people false hope.

LOL I must admit I have got some reality issues, bearing in mind I know I'm a women but my body doesn't want to see that reality!!

But I have definitely shrunk and lost shoe sizes in 15 months since HRT, so if I'm healthy, have had medicals and I'm found to be in perfect health, how do you explain what has happened? As it is also reported by other M2Fs too, are we all in denial and have wishful thinking and are just creating a common fantasy; or is that what most people call reality, when many people perceive the world in the same way?

Quote from: RachelH on January 26, 2013, 03:31:53 PM
LOL I must admit I have got some reality issues, bearing in mind I know I'm a women but my body doesn't want to see that reality!!

But I have definitely shrunk and lost shoe sizes in 15 months since HRT, so if I'm healthy, have had medicals and I'm found to be in perfect health, how do you explain what has happened? As it is also reported by other M2Fs too, are we all in denial and have wishful thinking and are just creating a common fantasy; or is that what most people call reality, when many people perceive the world in the same way?

No scientific evidence....at all.

No one has been bothered enough to do a real study.  The only evidence there appears to be is the repeated reports of it in numerous (not all) m2fs.  However, as it has happened to me and I seem able to measure myself accurately, as can my doctors...I will choose the fact that I have had this happen to me.  I'm sure at some point when someone is bored they will undertake a physiological and biochemical analysis on the effects of HRT on different tissue types. 

Or just to add a extra, my nose has shrunk too,   :laugh:

Quote from: RachelH on January 26, 2013, 03:39:24 PM
No one has been bothered enough to do a real study.  The only evidence there appears to be is the repeated reports of it in numerous (not all) m2fs.  However, as it has happened to me and I seem able to measure myself accurately, as can my doctors...I will choose the fact that I have had this happen to me.  I'm sure at some point when someone is bored they will undertake a physiological and biochemical analysis on the effects of HRT on different tissue types. 

Or just to add a extra, my nose has shrunk too,   :laugh:

Imagine! Don't know your height etc....but in let's say, 30 years or so....you've shrunken so much you'll disappear completely in some years after that!

They'll make a movie about you! The mtf version of 'The curious case of Benjamin Button'!  ;D

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If we were going to refrain from discussing things unless scientifically proven, things are going to be very dire. The fact is, some people have lived such phenomena, and some have had it measured by their doctor. Can it be explained without actual height loss? Yes, probably. Does it mean you have to treat believing it actually happened as nonsense and be mean to those who think that way? I believe not.

No one said "hey, please recognise height loss as an official effect of HRT". They know very well that whatever happened, it's not proven to be possible. But it doesn't mean they should shut up, hide things or lie because of that. And you have no right to be claiming they imagined all of this and are saying nonsense. Really, I might have cried if it were to me that you'd been so harsh.

Choose your words. If you have to be mean to people of the opposite opinion, then you're doing it wrong. You don't need to insult or discredit to disagree.

Quote from: Dahlia on January 26, 2013, 03:46:27 PM
Imagine! Don't know your height etc....but in let's say, 30 years or so....you've shrunken so much you'll disappear completely in some years after that!

Sadly the shrinking has stopped and my height and everything else has remained steady now for nearly 6 months.  I'll settle with the nice transition present that I've been given, especially as my shoe size is now in the average female range, and I have the full range and choice of gorgeous shoes in every shop!   ;D

Quote from: muuu on January 26, 2013, 03:46:46 PM
There isn't any bone changes (because it has fused, assuming you're post-puberty), and cartilage isn't bone. Supposedly females being on low T and high E have less cartilage, making their cartilage areas smaller. Males with high T and low E will have more cartilage, making their cartilage areas bigger.
Supposedly HRT would decrease the repair rate for cartilage, so over time there would be a reduction in size.

There are cartilage discs between every bone knob in your spine, if all of those shrink by a millimeter, then 23x1 would make you shrink 2.3cm.

I think we were talking about if hormones could possibly affect your height... not if it makes your head, torso and shoulders appear bigger.
Shrinking isn't necessarily good for everyone, some people want to be tall, others don't want to be shorter than x. If I was 5'5, I wouldn't want to get any shorter, but I'd still want to know if there's a possibility of it, because unpleasant surprises aren't very fun.

Cismen's bony parts are bigger/ thicker than ciswomen's....which means cartilage reduction to a more or less  female range (in such a rate!!!) should be a painful affair.
Not to mention the non shrinking nerves running through the cartilage discs and bone discs. All these nerves would tangle and/or get stuck between the bony discs...on several locations.

That's why osteopororis is so very painful.

No MTF claiming to have shrunken say anything about (back)pain though.

Besides that, shrinking in height only and no shrinkage of head, shoulder and torso size seems to be unflattering to me.....making a MTF unpassable

Just an FYI, I just had a DOT Medical Eval done, and I have very much so, dropped from 5'9.5" to 5'8".  These are professionals, who have measured me in both instances, and I did not slouch, or somehow stand extra tall in either of these measurings.  Say what you want Dahlia, but I'll believe the professionals 100% of the time over you.

I've also shrunk myself out of my former shoe size of 10.5 mens to a... let me check... 9 in mens... and they are a little spacious.

Again, you say wishful thinking...

Well, wishfully think your way out of this conversation if all you're going to do is essentially call us all liars.

The loss in cartilage doesn't necessarily have to be painful, if it doesn't effect a nerve why would it?  The spine naturally becomes compressed during normal waking hours due to gravity, and then decompresses when lying down.  The nerves are built to be flexible to some degree, what they don't appreciate is shear forces across the axon , or how could they tolerate a normal moving vertebrae?  At the end of the day I'm definitely shorter and when I wake up I'm back to my normal height... one reason why you should measure yourself at the same time, ideally when you have just woke up.

Quote from: RachelH on January 26, 2013, 03:53:23 PM
, especially as my shoe size is now in the average female range, and I have the full range and choice of gorgeous shoes in every shop!   ;D

This is something I only read on the internet/Susan's....no 3d MTF has ever, ever told me something like this....let alone witnessed shrinking MTF feet over such a short period of time....while shoeshopping with a MTF.

BTW: how about the width size of your toenails? Shrunken too?

And ehm, claim like yours can create false hope followed by disappointment with some pre HRT MTF....

Quote from: HeatherR on January 26, 2013, 04:05:59 PM
  Say what you want Dahlia, but I'll believe the professionals 100% of the time over you.

Ask them to write a scientific paper about this.

Then I'll believe these claims.

So far no scientific evidence eh?

Quote from: RachelH on January 26, 2013, 03:39:24 PM
No one has been bothered enough to do a real study. 

How strange....believe me, scientists and researchers here in Holland would pounce on that IMMEDIATELY....to gain public recognition and a promotion.

Yet so far no scientific news about HRT making MTF and their feet shrink (and how about shrinking handsize btw??) ....and I doubt there will ever be....except on Susan's of course.

This is the internet....yes, it is ;-)

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Strange I have had other M2Fs in real life confirm what has happened to me.  Just because you haven't met someone that it has happened to doesn't mean it hasn't happened.  Your view of the world must be very limited if you will only take things that you have personally seen.  I'm also not claiming it happens to everyone, as with all this HRT the effects are extremely varied.  But for me one of the unexpected and very welcome consequences was some minor shrinkage.  As for toe nail sizes, no they have not changed; as the most likely affected areas seem to be related to cartilage and other connective tissues, as other people keep saying.

However if you want to think about the dimorphic physical differences between males and females, and the evolutionary reasons for them, you can suggest some ideas.
Firstly Males where traditionally the hunter gathers, the reason why men have better depth perception, larger muscles and a more rugged skeleton.  Females were meant to bear children and look after them.  They remained in a more social situation, in which they developed a very co-dominant brain, lower muscle mass and a smaller more delicate skeleton. 
If you have a larger skeleton and a more evolutionary developed physical body, that knows it is male only from the hormones, surely this body would also increase the mass and strength of the cartilage, and connective tissues as well, to be able to withstand the increase fatigue the male body would receive.  But as these tissues are soft, and are developed by hormones, the change of hormones could in some individuals cause the soft tissue density and mass to decrease. 
Surely that could lead to me now fitting in some lovely shoes and been shorter as a consequence of HRT?  Of course all not proved, but the suggestions that people have given you should indicate there is a real possibility that this has and does happen. I just know that it does sometimes as I've seen it on myself and so have others!!

  You are trying to disprove something by speculation we are saying it has happened, as it has to us. If you don't believe us fine, we are not putting it out there to be peer reviewed, we are just stating consequences of HRT on us personally.

Quote from: muuu on January 26, 2013, 04:28:09 PM
Nerves aren't as rigid as steel bars.

No, they aren't....but male spine discs are bigger/thicker than women's....so, shrinking a few cm's cartilage WILL make the (the male length) nerves tangle between the thicker than a woman's spinal discs etc.

Quote
just to show that males do have more cartilage.

They have, and  more bone/thicker bony parts too.

QuoteI doubt there's any study on if HRT decreases cartilage, so there's no sure way to tell if there's a decrease or not.

There isn't any....

And a big, ole honking head is a deadgiveaway btw....ciswomen do have (much) smaller heads/faces/facial proportions than cismen/MTF.

Shrinking feet....but no claims about shrinking hands....how can that be?
Hands are under much less strain than feet because they carry the full bodyweight.

I think, as Dahilia said, there's no evidence (that I know of) that hormones reduce height, fine!
BUT
That doesn't mean it's not true, when people thought the world was flat, for a while there was no proof that it wasn't, that doesn't mean it was flat. Give me hard proof to say you CAN'T shrink. If you want to say "I personally don't think that height can change so easily or so much on hormones because there's no proof" but dont make attacks and attempted ridicule at those who claim it IS possible. Give is your story, your reasoning and your opinion, sure! But dont claim that everyone's lying, being stupid, or is blinded by their W
wishes.

And all pre-ops should realise that YMMV and these results are unlikely or could be impossible

Quote from: RachelH on January 26, 2013, 04:38:34 PM
Strange I have had other M2Fs in real life confirm what has happened to me.

Sure....I've met MTF claiming to be 100% passable through the internet and later in 3d.

A receding hairline, visible remains of beardgrowth and bodyhair doesn't make one passable....that was only in their heads...

Another one claimed her beardgrowth disappeared completely while on HRT....a thick layer of foundation covered it, it was only in her head.

Yet again: I only believe this if I can read some scientific papers, evidence.

HRT hasn't yet affected my height or shoe size. Why do some apparently shrink and others not a jot? I can only surmise that pre-HRT I should have been taller, but T didn't do its job as well as in those whose height has decreased. Maybe my T levels were low? I started in my early 20s, but I was never able to grow a beard and had little body hair. I've been on HRT for many years.

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Quote from: MangoJuice on January 26, 2013, 04:44:58 PM
. Give me hard proof to say you CAN'T shrink.

There is, osteoporosis. No fun, and happens over a course of let's say, 10-20 years, post menopause and yes, it occurs in cismen too.

Now I want some hard proof for shrinking hands and toenail-width.

Don't you wonder why no one claims that? Feet are under strain because they carry the full bodyweight, so why only 'shrinking feet' and no shrinking hands?

What about the toenail width? Has it stayed the same? What's the explanation for that?

Dahlia, are you been deliberately obtuse as you're bored?

The fact you have not seen it does not mean it does not happen, plain and simple.  No there aren't any scientific papers on it yet but there are plenty of events that happen and there aren't scientific papers on them either.

We are saying it happens to some people, i.e. ourselves.  If you don't believe us fine, carry on with your ignorance, we know what has happened to our bodies.  I'm bored arguing the same point with you.

Quote from: muuu on January 26, 2013, 04:53:07 PM
Every disc wouldn't shrink a cm... it'd be very small difference in a disc, but you have 23 of those, I think.

shrinking 5cm is a lot.

QuoteFeet are measured in shoe size, so if you don't fit a size before HRT but then after you do... something has to have happened. With hands it's different, there's really no measuring of them, so there isn't really a way to determine if they've shrunk or not.

Ladies and man's gloves are like shoes, sold in different sizes...world wide!

FYI: I wear ladiesgloves EU size 8 1/2.

Besides that: in Holland very young pre puberty MTF have their mid hand bone growth measured regularly before going on hormones....to check out puberty hasn't started yet.

Of course hands can be measured by the bones, so.....where are the magically shrinking hands?

Anyone?

Quote from: RachelH on January 26, 2013, 05:00:13 PM
Dahlia, are you been deliberately obtuse as you're bored?

The fact you have not seen it does not mean it does not happen, plain and simple.  No there aren't any scientific papers on it yet but there are plenty of events that happen and there aren't scientific papers on them either.

We are saying it happens to some people, i.e. ourselves.  If you don't believe us fine, carry on with your ignorance, we know what has happened to our bodies.  I'm bored arguing the same point with you.

Yet again: you're creating false hope for some pre HRT MTF.
They WILL be disappointed when they don't shrink in height, when their shoesize doesn't decrease.

Post this kind of info ONLY based on scientific evidence!

This site is not a Scientific Journal! We are stating what we have experienced.  Not what other people will gain from HRT.  If someone reads my post and they don't get the same results and they are upset then they have not listened to what EVERYONE states on here with HRT and YMMV, ffs.

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This may be a futile attempt but anyway:
We all have different views on this matter and no extensive research has been carried out so we can't say for sure ( I'm sure you think differently Dahilia) whether anything happens. If you can show me a report proving either way that's directly related (not osteoporosis) I'll read it and if need be admit I'm wrong. But it's clear that nothing stands to be gained from this argument so I think we should all stop posting about it.
And Dahilia, please ensure that when you prevent false hope you do it with a little more tact.
P.S. For your benefit Dahilia, I'll say that I'm OBVIOUSLY far inferior to you in every way particularly my scientific knowledge.

Quote from: MangoJuice on January 26, 2013, 05:17:11 PM

And Dahilia, please ensure that when you prevent false hope you do it with a little more tact.

Claiming(bragging?) to have shrunken 5cm(!!) and 2!! shoesizes in only 15 months on HRT isn't really tactful to other not so experienced/unknowing/pre everything MTF readers....isn't it?

It's a post asking our experiences regarding HRT and height.  What do you want us to not give any experiences we've had?  Someone asked a question we are giving our personal answers, not a scientific journal.  If you can't handle the fact that people are affected in different ways, don't read it and definitely don't go on a offensive about how insensitive we are to people that it may not happen too.  So far my boobs haven't exactly got as large as I wish, do I go and complain at how insensitive the girls who are b&c+ are?.  Surprisingly I'm mature enough to be able to realise that this treatment is so variable and I should be grateful for anything that happens.

Oh, and BTW....very young MTF going on puberty preventing hormones and later HRT grow unusually tall...most of them wish HRT made them AND their feet shrink!

They don't shrink, not a single one is,  and their shoesize stays the same (unusually big too..) even after 10 years being on estrogen/HRT.


I bet they're the ones laughing their heads off, reading this thread about 'shrinkage on HRT'.

I think a professional seeing a MTF 'shrink' so much and so rapidly on HRT would give her a worried look and offer to have her undergo a bone/DEXA scan....to check out if the bones etc are ok.

Here in Holland all MTF of all ages will have their bones checked via a DEXA scan, pre and during  HRT, just to make sure osteopororis doesn't occur when on HRT.

And no, no reports on incredible shrinking MTF and their feet shrinking, none! (Talking about evidence!)

But some reports of shrinking due to osteopororis, yes....like I've almost fallen victim to.

(Yes, a realitycheck! Haven't heard any 'shrinker'  telling this, just like they don't mention shrinking hands or toenails...)

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Best not talk about breast growth girls....  don't want to get pre-HRT girls hopes up that they might get DD's.  Also, lets not talk about hair regrowth or fat relocation.... don't want to get anyones hopes up!  Knock it off Dahlia, you're exactly why people stop coming to this site.  I came here to hear other peoples experiences, learn more, and get excited about the changes I'm going through, not be called a liar, or a crazy person.


Oh, and I'm not crazy, nor am I a liar.   Anyone know how to put someone on ignore?  I'd rather just remove her posts from my updates entirely.

Quote from: HeatherR on January 26, 2013, 06:07:02 PM
Best not talk about breast growth girls....  don't want to get pre-HRT girls hopes up that they might get DD's.  Also, lets not talk about hair regrowth or fat relocation....

There are many, many medical/scientific reports on breastgrowth while on HRT, about hair regrowth in some MTF  and of course fat relocation.

But NO medical/scientific reports on MTF 'shrinking in height and shrinking feet'.  None, and there never will be.

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OK, everyone has made their point, time to review the TOS:

15. Items under discussion shall be confined to the subject matter at hand, members shall avoid taking the other users posts personally, and/or posting anything that can reasonably be construed as a personal attack

And,

7. Leave moderation to the moderators! Susan and her staff are the only people who are authorized to deny anyone access to this web site including telling someone to leave, or to stop discussing a topic.  If someone wishes to discuss a subject that you are not interested in,  suggest a new subject; go to another of the many areas on this site; or ignore that person, topic, or discussion. If you feel a person's post violates the rules of this site use the report this post function.

You may now resume your civil discussion. Hugs, Devlyn

QuoteI don't think there's been that much research into transsexualism, so it's not that surprising that there isn't a study about it.

AN AWFUL LOT!!! Especially in Amsterdam/Free University Holland, and no, no reports on shrinking MTF (feet) None, over the last 25 years.



Read my last post: in Holland ALL MTF, regardless of age, some 150 patients a year, are obliged to have DEXA/bone scans, starting pre HRT following up during HRT for years and decades to follow.
To make sure HRT won't cause osteoporosis.

NO reports of 'shrinking MTF(feet), NONE.

SOME reports of shrinking because of osteoporosis, which is  then treated IMMEDIATELY.

Well I'm now ignoring this topic now.  I've said what my experiences are, as everyone else has, take them or leave them. Done.

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Wow who would have thought a thread about height and hormones could cause such controversy. Is it really all that serious.

Quote from: Heather on January 26, 2013, 07:57:32 PM
Wow who would have thought a thread about height and hormones could cause such controversy. Is it really all that serious.

Apparently. We better not give our experiences on here if they aren't scientifically backed. Otherwise we might give false hope. So be careful about what you say on this support site because if you can't back them up, others might get angry and call you a silly little liar!!!

Quote from: muuu on January 26, 2013, 06:55:08 PM
Well, I'm not an expert... but if they're looking at bone density, do they really care about cartilage?

Quote
Yes, especially the cartilage between the spinal discs....for obvious reasons.

QuoteDoes osteoporosis affect your joints(cartilage+muscle), or even height, doesn't it just make your bones brittle?

It affects the lower spinal discs and hips, making the bone brittle causing the bone to shrink and sag...thus making one shrink in height.

QuoteThen why are peoples feet shrinking?

They don't. Because the feet carry the full bodyweight making them 'spread' and grow at least one shoesize over the years/decades.
How on earth could feet shrink up to 2 shoesizes in such a short time while walking and standing on them? You'd wind up crippled IF this were true!

And, so, why aren't the hands of the 'shrinking claimants'  shrinking then?

QuoteYou sound very ignorant... Do you think that everyone who says their feet has shrunk are lying, without having evidence of why they absolutely can't shrink?

If they can provide me with evidence of 'shrinking' instead of only claiming...without mentioning shrinking hands and toenail width.....

I consider stories like 'I've shrunken 5cm in height and my shoesize decreased 2 sizes in 15 months on HRT' as one of the  internet (urban) folktales of the MTF community.

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If you have fat and wide feet, would not the hrt help to make feet thinner? Most women have thinner feet than men.

Quote from: muuu on January 27, 2013, 03:44:38 AM
Are those effects of osteoporosis permanent, like the height difference?

Yes, it's irreversible.

QuoteShoes would be evidence for showing that their feet have shrunk.

Yes, sure. I can buy myself some pairs of size 44 shoes, break them in while wearing 4 pairs of thick socks and then claim my feet have shrunk to a size 42.....showing all shoes in different sizes.

QuoteHow would your feet grow? Your bones won't change, they've fused already. If it's about muscle and fat, then I think that could explain why their feet supposedly have shrunk.

That's about muscles, fat, ligaments etc.
Most cis people wear a bigger shoesize in, let's say, their late forties than in their early twenties...because standing and walking on your feet makes them spread...the bones don't grow, the rest in between just spreads over the years.
Weight gain also plays a role.

Not really unlogical considering bodyweight, gravity and aging eh?

Oh, and think about (heavily) pregnant women....full of hormones and no shrinking but growing feet.

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Well I don't know why I'm bothering, I've been trying to avoid this thread after the last one, but, my hands have also shrunk.

I had no evidence last time but I can  now remove three rings which have been stuck on for 5+ years. I could explain this away as less swelling through lack of use (not that I have) but I could see how a labourer's hands would grow.

However, I have been unable  to wear female bracelets at any time before and am now able to wear them, My wrists were always 7.5"+ now they are 7".

I'm also able to do up the zip on boots much, much easier, I was always in danger of trapping skin there but not now.

Dahlia, you do no-one, including yourself, any favours. The correct response would be to ask why everyone does not get these effects (if they want them) and perhaps moving knowledge forward.

Just FYI it didn't take months for the feet in my case, it was about five weeks. I  think the hands have taken longer. 

Quote from: muuu on January 27, 2013, 04:18:12 AM
Why would they wear 4 pairs of thick socks to wear bigger shoes? ...those shoes are from their "previous life".

I can show several pairs size 41 shoes while trying them on from 'my previous smaller shoesize life' a couple of years ago that don't fit anymore in my present bigger shoesize life.
I wear size 42 nowadays.

It's definitely possible but not proved.

A lot of MTFs do say that they have lost height - with either both in perception of height as well as actual height and sometimes either...

But then that's not always the case...

For some of us if taken early - it could have a growth effect on us.

Like with a lot of things about being a woman  - E doesn't always produce the same results in each person - sometimes it's just plain luck.

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Quote from: Alexia6 on January 27, 2013, 04:44:25 AM


For some of us if taken early - it could have a growth effect on us.

Yes, and that has been proven by medical science.

All I can say is that I *didn't* believe the foot-shrinking thing. I thought it was all wishful thinking (although I was too polite to actually say so outside of my own head).

Now my wife has several pairs of shoes, not just her combat boots from pre-HRT but ones I was there when she tried on and they were almost too tight at the beginning of HRT... and they're all too big. I actually wish I'd been right, since that's a lot of money spent on shoes neither of us can wear. :) Furthermore, she went from fitting in shoes a size and a half bigger than mine to ones a half-size bigger (and my feet haven't changed size for the larger yet).

As for the height thing, it IS scientifically documented that people "change" height by a bit over the course of a single day, as standing upright and gravity compress things a bit. It is not yet established that the same happens on HRT, but the theories that minor changes in cartilage and posture can affect measured height and/or apparent spinal length are at least plausible based on these studies.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1545095/pdf/archdisch00801-0068.pdf (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1545095/pdf/archdisch00801-0068.pdf)
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003687010001171 (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003687010001171)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1888420/ (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1888420/)
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/Spinal_Elongation.html (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/experiments/Spinal_Elongation.html)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21430497 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21430497)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23256357 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23256357)
http://www.humanics-es.com/stadiometer_cites.htm (http://www.humanics-es.com/stadiometer_cites.htm)
http://www.haworth.com/en-us/knowledge/workplace-library/Documents/Effects%20of%20Sit-Stand%20Schedule%20on%20Spinal%20Shrinkage%20in%20VDT%20Operators.pdf (http://www.haworth.com/en-us/knowledge/workplace-library/Documents/Effects%20of%20Sit-Stand%20Schedule%20on%20Spinal%20Shrinkage%20in%20VDT%20Operators.pdf)

Quote from: Alexia6 on January 27, 2013, 04:44:25 AM
Like with a lot of things about being a woman  - E doesn't always produce the same results in each person - sometimes it's just plain luck.

Probably best to replace luck with chance. Some of us may not want shrink or become short and stocky.  :laugh:

In my opinion if someone says they shrunk on HRT, and especially those who have been measured ect by professionals, then who are you to call them liars?

Quote from: AlexisB on January 27, 2013, 01:46:27 PM
In my opinion if someone says they shrunk on HRT, and especially those who have been measured ect by professionals, then who are you to call them liars?

Well, the professionals were totally amazed seeing someone shrink 5cm's in height and  seeing her shoesize increase 2 sizes in only 15 months on HRT....without any complaints about pain or spinal problems.... or walking without problems or a limp.....because feet that shrink 2 sizes will create walking and balance problems....well, of course they started looking for medical reports on shrinking height and shoesize on HRT in a short time...

BUT....they couldn't find  any medical or scientific reports about this fenomenon.....because there aren't any.

Lots and lots of other stuff about MTF HRT but sadly nothing about shrinking in height and shrinking feet.

And for some reason the professionals witnessing this very interesting fenomenon in rather many MTF don't have time to do research and data or....they're not interested?

In something that could be world shocking news because it could mean a lot for let's say, people with giant growth or unusually tall people etcetc.
Maybe indifference? I can't imagine, to such an important discovery!

Well, IF there were any such medical reports or data they would have been posted here, in this very topic, some 15 posts ago.

BTW: have you heard about  Santaclaus creating a colony of garden gnomes on the moon? Not a case of wild imagination, Rudolf told me himself!  ;)

Dahlia, I can't help noticing that you aren't addressing the scientific studies I *did* find, which indicate that people can lose up to 3% of their height under the influence of gravity (that's the NASA one), or others saying around 0.7 cm in a single day, all without evidence of injury. Presumably, if the cartilage in the spine is compressible to some degree - as these studies demonstrate fairly conclusively - then a gradual and minor alteration of it could reduce height noticeably with no symptoms. Similarly, a tendency towards slightly more spinal curvature and/or hip-tilted posture could easily account for 3 cm or more when being measured by a professional who doesn't require that the person strain to achieve the maximum possible upward flexion.

(I'm 65 inches tall. 3% loss would be around 2 inches, or about 4.7 cm. And that's a perfectly normal side effect of gravity in ONE DAY.)

Again, nothing conclusive about HRT, but it's clear that spinal compression *does* cause height changes, and furthermore that there has to be a margin of error in measurement using less precise methods than were cited in some of these studies. (I wonder if medical professionals are more likely to under-measure people perceived as female and vice versa, too? Now *there* is a study that someone ought to do.)

Regardless if they are "amazed" or not, if the results of facts, the facts are that months ago they were 6'1 and now they're 5'11, are right in front of them, then whats the debate?

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on January 27, 2013, 02:01:18 AM
Apparently. We better not give our experiences on here if they aren't scientifically backed. Otherwise we might give false hope. So be careful about what you say on this support site because if you can't back them up, others might get angry and call you a silly little liar!!!

Well look on the bright side. I wish somebody would call me a silly little liar! But at my height that would be a lie. But for what its worth I hope your right I would like to drop a few inches.

I'm still struggling to see your point regarding how there are a myriad of MtF individuals who have definitely become shorter. I have read weak rebuttals and senseless arguing without giving a valid point, besides trying to argue that it's their perception which doesn't make any sense because they are not comparing themselves in the mirror concerning height but by are actually measuring their height and comparing the numbers. I don't doubt you are a really smart person and you may even be correct, there may not be any correlation between transitioning and height but there seem to be enough cases for it to be a possibility. I have seen my own height change and I didn't expect it to, but the nurse clearly told me my height which wasn't the same height as 4 months ago which was right before I started taking hormones. So since there isn't a clear scientific answer to this question, I am more inclined to believe the opinions/experiences of many instead of the experiences of one. That's how I view it at least, it's really hard for me to believe that so many of us are delusional (including myself).

Oh but Emma, didn't you know there isn't any scientific evidence or reports written, so it can't possibly be true  ::)

When they were being guys, they wanted to be larger. So they reached for the sky while getting measured, anything to fit the ideal better.


Now that they are trying to fit into other shoes, they shrink and slouch while getting measured, a slight shift in the hips waiste and a posture adjust and whamo! Im 3 inches shorter zomg amazing.

Quote from: Noelle on January 28, 2013, 02:27:32 PM
When they were being guys, they wanted to be larger. So they reached for the sky while getting measured, anything to fit the ideal better.


Now that they are trying to fit into other shoes, they shrink and slouch while getting measured, a slight shift in the hips waiste and a posture adjust and whamo! Im 3 inches shorter zomg amazing.

I don't really know either way who is right or wrong on this subject. I'm definitely not going tell someone who says they have lost height are imagining things. But I can say I never had to try to be taller when I was being measured I just was and I hated it.

Quote from: Noelle on January 28, 2013, 02:27:32 PM
When they were being guys, they wanted to be larger. So they reached for the sky while getting measured, anything to fit the ideal better.


Now that they are trying to fit into other shoes, they shrink and slouch while getting measured, a slight shift in the hips waiste and a posture adjust and whamo! Im 3 inches shorter zomg amazing.

LOL! +1

Quote from: Noelle on January 28, 2013, 02:27:32 PM
When they were being guys, they wanted to be larger. So they reached for the sky while getting measured, anything to fit the ideal better.


Now that they are trying to fit into other shoes, they shrink and slouch while getting measured, a slight shift in the hips waiste and a posture adjust and whamo! Im 3 inches shorter zomg amazing.

Ok, I totally agree with this.  Shoe size for example.  Now I was buying guys shoes I always bought a size larger, I actually wore an 8 but bought a 9 so my feet didn't look so small.  Now after HRT I've been measuring everything six ways from Sunday trying to figure out my women's sizes.  So for a fact I knew my feet where a specific length, how.. I measured from heel to toe on a flat surface several times.. Well I buy a pair of shoes and then suddenly now my feet are smaller.... Wtf!? Pull out the tape measure, and see if I magically shrunk.. Sure enough my feet where smaller... How the heck that is possible I couldn't tell you. But it happened, height was the same but not much, I was always just about 5' 7" now I'm barely 5'6" I'm not complaining it's nice to be a bit smaller but just odd.. The only thing I can think of is that the "t" amped everything up, including the cartilage and now since it's been removed the "swelling" has reduced.  I mean my bones couldn't have shrunk? Meh, it is what it is I guess.  ???

Quote from: Dahlia on January 26, 2013, 04:00:16 PM
Not to mention the non shrinking nerves running through the cartilage discs and bone discs. All these nerves would tangle and/or get stuck between the bony discs...on several locations.

Someone needs to study anatomy a little more.  Generally spinal nerves and branches do not pass through the cartilage disks at all. They pass around the spinal bones along the protuberances on each vertebra.  So no nerve tangling etc..  While no scientific study has been done yet, it has been clearly documented that many times MTF "WILL" loose a little height mainly due to a slight reduction in the cartilage disk height.  I have documented that I have lost 1-1/2" in height since starting HRT.  You'll be glad to know that I suffered no ill effects or pain in losing that height. 

Also as MtF many times have a longer torso, the slight reduction in height will actually assist in passing. :-P

BTW everyone knows Santa does not live on the moon.  He only goes there on vacation.

Ok I'm so done feeding trolls.

Buying larger shoes so feet look larger? o: I've always had the bad habit of wanting to squeeze in smaller shoes because it made my feet look smaller. Besides, when it's too large, it's so uncomfortable to walk with. x_x

But uhm, yeah, to add to the testimonies, my best friend lived foot shrinkage too. She'd bought shoes when she was just beginning. They fit very well, but she almost never wore them, not being out. Well, after several months of HRT, the shoes, which couldn't have been "broken in" or "stretched" since they were barely ever being used (and only inside, to take a few pictures; never to go out), were way too large. Not "a bit loose but I can still wear them". Not wearable anymore. I don't remember exactly, but I think she said she lost 2 sizes.

It gave her a lesson: Never do your shoe shopping before HRT.

I wonder how I was wearing size 9s in mens just fine... but now some size 8.5 heels in womens are so loose i can pull my toes out of the top without using my hands...

To add, the shoes I bought a few months ago when I reported the shoe size and height change, I had to stop HRT for a few reasons...  (I will be back on the juice soon!)  in the last month, the shoes that DID fit, albeit tightly, do not squeeze onto my feet now....  it's the kind of pain I'm sure is reserved for things such as childbirth.  Perhaps I can relish in that?  meh... either way.  I've never tried to appear taller... That was the last thing I ever wanted.  Without shoes on, in a doctors office, my height changes have been well documented.  So much so, I had to have my driver's license altered, due to the discrepancy.

FACT: I've lost 3/4" in height.
FACT: I've lost a shoe size - I was a womens 10, since I've started hormones I now wear a 9 - the shoes I bought early on no longer fit. All the remaining mens shoes I have are also too big.

I can't deny that it has happened.. I also have no explanation for it - apart from changes to cartilage and other soft tissues. My gyno did suggest that it may happen.

HeatherR: Heh, they're pretty serious where you are. When I went for my driver's license, the man just asked me how tall I was, and when I answered I didn't know, he looked at me, said "that looks like 5 feet 6 inches" and put 168 cm on my license. Wrong, mister, it's 5'5 and 165 cm. And since renewal is only a letter in my mailbox and a few clicks on the Internet, there's no information update, really. xD

Quote from: A on January 28, 2013, 11:07:10 PM
HeatherR: Heh, they're pretty serious where you are. When I went for my driver's license, the man just asked me how tall I was, and when I answered I didn't know, he looked at me, said "that looks like 5 feet 6 inches" and put 168 cm on my license. Wrong, mister, it's 5'5 and 165 cm. And since renewal is only a letter in my mailbox and a few clicks on the Internet, there's no information update, really. xD

Well obviously you've shrunk an inch

Quote from: A on January 28, 2013, 11:07:10 PM
HeatherR: Heh, they're pretty serious where you are. When I went for my driver's license, the man just asked me how tall I was, and when I answered I didn't know, he looked at me, said "that looks like 5 feet 6 inches" and put 168 cm on my license. Wrong, mister, it's 5'5 and 165 cm. And since renewal is only a letter in my mailbox and a few clicks on the Internet, there's no information update, really. xD

Well, my information was collected for a Homeland Security BG check etc...  so they need accurate info

Noelle, uhm, no. At least I have no reason of believing it. That guy's eyes 3 m away from me can't be considered any accurate measurement, and I had no accurate measurement of myself. The only valid data I have is when my doctor measured me, about a year ago: 165 cm. If I shrink, I'll know when I next ask her to measure me, which I don't quite feel like doing, especially.

For those that have seen their shoe size decrease, did you also have a significant loss of weight?

Quote from: Ani on January 29, 2013, 01:01:53 AM
For those that have seen their shoe size decrease, did you also have a significant loss of weight?

I'm about 5kg down from my pre-HRT weight..

By significant I was thinking more than 5kg.  If you google 'shoe size change with weight loss' there are many, many hits.  It seems the length of the foot is mostly due to bone, so one would not expect the length of the foot to change much, but with weight loss you could expect the width to decrease.  Spiro's a diuretic, could that play a part for some?  My feet are pretty boney, so I can't see my shoe size changing much (size 13-14!  :()

Quote from: Ani on January 29, 2013, 01:01:53 AM
For those that have seen their shoe size decrease, did you also have a significant loss of weight?

Well for me a year ago I weighed 161lbs now I'm at 135bs.. But the length of my feet have actually changed in addition to the width.

Quote from: A on January 29, 2013, 12:46:11 AM
Noelle, uhm, no. At least I have no reason of believing it. That guy's eyes 3 m away from me can't be considered any accurate measurement, and I had no accurate measurement of myself. The only valid data I have is when my doctor measured me, about a year ago: 165 cm. If I shrink, I'll know when I next ask her to measure me, which I don't quite feel like doing, especially.

Sarcasm

I am also shocked . I went from 5.8ft to 5.58ft(not even 5.6ft)  measurement was took last march.

i was wondering why all my tshirts seemed so long just like if they all stretched(they arrive below my butt) . No wonder why now lol...

Well that would be something to look forward to when I start HRT. Two inches loss would put me at 5'4". I could live with that!

I have been very, very, lucky when it comes to this and I'm only going to post so people know it can happen :)
When I started I had my BMI done at my GP for my CFS and I have had continual tests since. Fact, I went from 5 foot 11, to 5 foot 8, my shoe size decreased from a UK 11 to a UK 8, same as my girl friend :) My weight from 10 stone to 9 stone and I went from a UK size 12 to a UK size 6. I've grown 34 D breasts and an ample caboose too. That's over the period of 1 year, 5 months on HRT.