Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I got an email this morning telling me I was accepted into the non op group and that freaked me out a little.I chose it because it kinda,sorta described me,but it kinda,sorta doesn't as well,if you know what I mean.I guess what I'm trying to say is that now I'm wanting to come out of the closet,the first thing I have to do is put myself into a box and that just doesn't feel right.That and some of the discussions on here,and the mean things being said about the girls who don't want grs,is getting me a bit down.I had a really bad experience last week in a chat room with a guy,whose reaction to my description of myself as having man's body and a woman's soul was that Allah doesn't make mistakes.I took that a bit personally,I don't look upon myself as a mistake,I accept what I am and don't like others denying me the right to identify as what I know I am.That guys comment really hurt me,I cried a lot and it still gets to me.I just feel that the attitude here is a bit the same or am I just being over sensitive?

Just because your saying your non op now doesn't mean you can't change your mind in the future. Your not signing a contract! And afar as people on the Internet say mean things all the time. Does that make it right no but jerks like that are always going to be around. So don't give them the satisfaction of letting them get to you. Oh and good luck on coming out I hope it goes well. :)

The groups in Susan's are restricted to those who apply. It doesn't mean any more than that.  You can be in as many groups as you wish. The only factor is to respect the opinions of the people in that particular group. For example in the non-op area Mods will leap onto people who advocate having ops etc. Nothing judgemental just a privacy thing we supply. Other examples in the SO area we restrict it to discussions among significant others so they can talk freely among themselves. There is nothing more than that. No labels nothing.

If you convince us there is a need for people with vulcan ears, big red noses called Arnold, and there is sufficient interest , we will create a restricted area for them.

Why call a red nose Arnold?

Oh well, diversity is the key.

Quote from: Shakira on January 28, 2013, 12:10:56 AM
I got an email this morning telling me I was accepted into the non op group and that freaked me out a little.I chose it because it kinda,sorta described me,but it kinda,sorta doesn't as well,if you know what I mean.I guess what I'm trying to say is that now I'm wanting to come out of the closet,the first thing I have to do is put myself into a box and that just doesn't feel right.That and some of the discussions on here,and the mean things being said about the girls who don't want grs,is getting me a bit down.I had a really bad experience last week in a chat room with a guy,whose reaction to my description of myself as having man's body and a woman's soul was that Allah doesn't make mistakes.I took that a bit personally,I don't look upon myself as a mistake,I accept what I am and don't like others denying me the right to identify as what I know I am.That guys comment really hurt me,I cried a lot and it still gets to me.I just feel that the attitude here is a bit the same or am I just being over sensitive?

Welcome to the site, and don't worry about labels, in my opinion. I find the diversity of views here very helpful to me, not just the ones that I agree with but also the ones I disagree with; it helps me consider my trans issues from all angles which is invaluable.

We were, or are "non-op" until we are not, so don't worry about it.  Nothing is set in concrete, and you are the one who gets to make your rules and definitions.   
As for the bloke who said Allah doesn't make mistakes, introduce him to Jerry Falwell.  Should be fun to watch. >:-)

In other words, tell them to mind their own business.

Karen.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If God, Allah, whatever doesn't make mistakes, then it's no mistake that you are who you are, as you stated a man's body with a woman's soul. God did that. Not you. He needs to deal with that!

Just to perhaps correct the relativity on this point. For those that believe, god, allah, whatever doesn't make mistakes, how do you actually prove that statement?

I tend to believe this is yet another of the plethora of urban myths, promulgated to support profoundly unproven and unprovable myths or creationist theories, also sometimes referred to as,"faith;" by organisations wanting to control a segment of society, if not all.

May I further offer a well worn christian belief and perspective that is supported in biblical text, that since Adam fell from grace with god, we are no longer prefect, and made to toil by the sweat of our brow, and a whole heap of other travesties not considered worthy in the original manufactures production brief. This belief should therefore automatically extend to the understanding we are now prone to being mistakes. Gives traction to the story of the second coming so we can be "redeemed" (hopefully not for an additional 500 mile leg with United Air  ;D ) and made perfect again. I believe that story had that particular event happening in the "twinkle of an eye", or words to that effect.

So until someone can provide reasonable, sustainable proof that the creator doesn't make mistakes, I'll have to continue to ignore peoples belief in that theorem. As my understanding is we are all mistakes, in one way or another. (OK you load of perfectionist up there in the bleachers, sit down and shut up :laugh:)

So; a baby born with spina bifada is not a mistake. Hummmmmmm.  So, what do you call it? I'm open to your theory, it's your turn now.

Huggs
Catherine

P.S. May I offer my apologies to those that may take offence in my deliberate no capitalisation of some proper nouns herein. It's my belief, respect has to be earned. It's not an automatic qualification deemed by the use of a particular set of proper nouns.

Quote from: Catherine Sarah on January 28, 2013, 11:29:41 AM
So until someone can provide reasonable, sustainable proof that the creator doesn't make mistakes, I'll have to continue to ignore peoples belief in that theorem. As my understanding is we are all mistakes, in one way or another. (OK you load of perfectionist up there in the bleachers, sit down and shut up :laugh:)

I was trying to be empathetic. I'm actually an atheist. You DO make a good point though with the fall from grace. It does seem to be a bit of a mishap to not only create a tree that people aren't supposed to eat from, but to put it right where they live and provide an evil talking serpent to try to make them disobey a direct order. Why create any of it? I also apologize in advance for offending anybody.

If God doesn't make mistakes then why do I suffer from excema? Why does my ex's brother have a crooked spine?
If God does exist then he makes mistakes all the time but the biggest mistakes come from humans using God & religious texts to justify hatred.

The important thing is that you are happy with the direction your life is taking, there will always be people who disagree & discourage, they are not worth listening to.

Never let one person's interpretation influence what you may or may not think, and by no means let their limited life experience dictate anything about yours.

I am in the quandry of realizing that with my age (66) and family/life restrictions I will never be able to to any farther than I am now (just began my journey into self awareness 17 months ago).  Now to find the balance, and i don't have time to consider anybody's outside influence who are not experiencing this personally.

Barbara

Well, I suppose I am 'non-op' in a way. I won't be having dick surgery. So, believe me the opinions you read here are not the opinions of the site as a whole. You don't have to classify yourself as 'non-op' unless you want.

Quote from: Catherine Sarah on January 28, 2013, 11:29:41 AM
Just to perhaps correct the relativity on this point. For those that believe, god, allah, whatever doesn't make mistakes, how do you actually prove that statement?

Duck Billed Platypus!  Need I say more?  ;D

OK Maybe not a mistake but he sure had a few spare parts left over that needed to get made into something.

Quote from: JoanneB on January 28, 2013, 06:31:42 PM
Duck Billed Platypus!  Need I say more?  ;D

:laugh:   :laugh:   :laugh:

Love it Joanne.

Mistake? Hummmm  May be the result of prototyping, perhaps. The only thing it doesn't do is fly; however the next generation release I believe they are working on it.  ;D

I think Alan Bond may have had something to do with Australia's only multi purpose, all terrain marsupial.  ;D

Huggs
Catherine

Or Rube Goldberg!

We could all learn self-defence from the platypus - she has toxic spurs! Anyway, looked at from another perspective, it's the ducks and the other marsupials that are faulty prototypes for the platypus :).

Quote from: Padma on January 28, 2013, 11:32:01 PM
.......... it's the ducks and the other marsupials that are faulty prototypes for the platypus :)

Love it Padma. Also love your new looks. You are definitely filling out in the face a lot more, and your hair is looking really nice.

Doing a great job,girl.

Huggs
Catherine

Ta *blush*

Thank you all for your kind words,support and encouragement.It's going to be really hard hard for me just dressing as what I am in my community,let alone undergoing any sort of hormonal or surgical treatment.Plus my body issues don't centre around what's between my legs,I have much more of a problem with being hairy and that horrible man smell that seems to get worse with age.I've spoken with a few girls who've been living in thier correct gender for years,tried making the full transition and stopped because they felt even less like themselves than before they let doctors try to 'fix' them.They just came to the conclusion that they weren't broken to start with.I've also heard too many stories about botched ops and girls who changed thier minds post-op to see this as anything other than a last resort solution for me.The thing that most upset me was the inference that having the means to get the op and not doing it,made you a man in a dress.I saw this said more than once and it was a bit worrying to hear society's basic opinion of us coming from my peers. As it I see it who's between my ears is a way bigger issue than what's between my legs.This could just be a cultural thing from my point of view.In Islam the body's just a temporary vessel,but the soul is eternal,so having my identity challenged is way more of a problem,than any physical comparison.I've been doing alot of research on t-g Muslims and this spiritual mislabling does seem to be a much bigger problem for us.I'd like to hear how the Christians and others feel about this.

Quote from: Shakira on January 29, 2013, 04:51:41 PM
Thank you all for your kind words,support and encouragement.It's going to be really hard hard for me just dressing as what I am in my community,let alone undergoing any sort of hormonal or surgical treatment.Plus my body issues don't centre around what's between my legs,I have much more of a problem with being hairy and that horrible man smell that seems to get worse with age.I've spoken with a few girls who've been living in thier correct gender for years,tried making the full transition and stopped because they felt even less like themselves than before they let doctors try to 'fix' them.They just came to the conclusion that they weren't broken to start with.I've also heard too many stories about botched ops and girls who changed thier minds post-op to see this as anything other than a last resort solution for me.The thing that most upset me was the inference that having the means to get the op and not doing it,made you a man in a dress.I saw this said more than once and it was a bit worrying to hear society's basic opinion of us coming from my peers. As it I see it who's between my ears is a way bigger issue than what's between my legs.This could just be a cultural thing from my point of view.In Islam the body's just a temporary vessel,but the soul is eternal,so having my identity challenged is way more of a problem,than any physical comparison.I've been doing alot of research on t-g Muslims and this spiritual mislabling does seem to be a much bigger problem for us.I'd like to hear how the Christians and others feel about this.

This sounds like a healthier understanding than where you were before. Unfortunately, you'll also hear from within the TG community sentiments that basically boil down to, "Oh my God, you shouldn't do that!" Everyone's got an opinion on what it means to be trans, how to deal with it, and what's right and wrong. There's a difference between real, practical advice (i.e., don't self medicate because it's dangerous) and opinion (you aren't the real deal unless you've had SRS). Sometimes people view and present their opinions as practical advice.

At the end of the day, although we each have each other to lean on, we're all still basically on our own too since we ultimately need to decide for ourselves what is right and wrong for us.

Quote from: Shakira on January 28, 2013, 12:10:56 AM
was that Allah doesn't make mistakes.

No, He doesn't.

But just as we build a house where none was before, just as some revert while others are born into Islam, so we meet the challenges Allah presents us with.

Quote from: Shakira on January 28, 2013, 12:10:56 AM
..... was that Allah doesn't make mistakes.

Quote from: spacial on January 29, 2013, 11:52:52 PM
No, He doesn't.

With all due respects. I know I must be missing a major point to this discussion; BUT; how can you prove that theory??   Blinding rhetoric has no place in society. Its counterproductive, misleading and insulting.

An Islam baby born with spina bifada. That surely has to be some sort of mistake. So, who's responsible for that mistake if allah wasn't?

The mother?, the father?, the doctor?, the hospital?, the water carrier?; the baby?? SOMEONE has to be responsible.  It's delusional, regressive, counterproductive and immature to accept it, "just happens."

For gods sake, civilisation wouldn't be where it is today if our generational predecessors took the stand point, "it just happens;" no body is to blame for anything.

Remember to keep your explanation on that rhetoric real simple. Because if you are right; I have a major deficiency in primary understanding.

With all due respects
Catherine

Understood Cathrine. Perfectly valid questions in my opinion.

May I start by saying I am not Muslim. I was wali to a niece revert and went to her Nikah. Because I like to know what I'm taking on and because that niece is more precious than anything, I spent quite some tome looking closely at Islam. More so than I had done with my previous, general studies.

For a Muslim, the purpose to life is to worship God. In the Koran, it is stated, "I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me." [51:56] However frustrating such disabilities are, for a Muslim they are simply part of temporary existance.

When I say: No. He doesn't. I am affirming what a good Muslim will take for granted.

I appreciate that many who are either cynical or seeking to abandon all aspects of faith find endless contraditions. These are perfectly understandable when all any of us see are different groups fighting for power and money, with little regard for welfare.

I don't seek to argue that point here. I was only attempting to address the very real concerns of Shakira to a valid point put by a fellow Muslim.

Again, for a westerner, it may be difficult to grasp, but Muslims are habitually, very respectful of rhetoric and argument, properly presented with regard to the principals of Islam. In particular, Muslims especially appreciate references to Hadith.

In another thread, to another Muslim member, I made a reference to hadith, but sadly, referenced a collection more closely associated with a different sect from that member's. I hope I am capable of learning lessons. So this time I simply presented an argument.

The Koran is universal among Muslims. So I am safe citing a passage from that. I should think almost every Muslims ever, has already heard that passage anyway.

Thanks spacial,

I can see where you're coming from.

And yes you are right about the cynicism. Many contradictions abound. Particularly when they are personally based on abuse.

Thank you for your explanation

Huggs
Catherine

Yes I agree, the Muslim should not have said Allah does not make mistakes, I mean is Allah for real anyway? As far as I'm concerned I am a man who was born with a female's soul, something went wrong at birth, it's a disability like any other, in fact worse because no one knows you have one except the people who understand it. The thing is, what do we do about it, that is only for us to decide. I have suffered a lot of pain over the past 7 years because of this problem I have. I've more or less accepted it will not go away, but am still to scared to try transitioning.

Quote from: DoctorInternet333 on February 12, 2013, 02:33:20 AM
Yes I agree, the Muslim should not have said Allah does not make mistakes, I mean is Allah for real anyway? As far as I'm concerned I am a man who was born with a female's soul, something went wrong at birth, it's a disability like any other, in fact worse because no one knows you have one except the people who understand it. The thing is, what do we do about it, that is only for us to decide. I have suffered a lot of pain over the past 7 years because of this problem I have. I've more or less accepted it will not go away, but am still to scared to try transitioning.

I'm sure we all understand your point.

But an another, equally valid way to look at this, is not to see a disability, but a challange.

A small person will generaly, not be able to run as fast as a tall person, but with extra effort they might.

From the perspective of someone who accepts God, he didn't make a mistake making the person small, he gave them a challange.

I don't think it is yours or my place to question belief, whether it is Islam, Christianity or Atheism. Each is equally valid in that those who accpet them are hopefully comfortable.

Welcome to Susans' by the way.

Two pieces of advice that work well for me, and maybe for you:

1) REJECT CATEGORIES
2) EVOLVE!!

If you can smile while you do so, you're waaay ahead of the curve. Good luck!

Quote from: GendrKweer on February 13, 2013, 08:41:28 AM
Two pieces of advice that work well for me, and maybe for you:

1) REJECT CATEGORIES
2) EVOLVE!!

If you can smile while you do so, you're waaay ahead of the curve. Good luck!

I like this advice!

Short. Punchy. Sounds dynamic and could be applied to almost anything.

Appeals to my sense of rebelliousness too.

People are born with all sorts of physical and psychological anamolies, including intersex conditions and these were identified and addressed by the early Muslims.. Including transgender, the mukhannath who were not labeled outside the fold of Islam or sinners. If your interested in my opinion, I did a little write up about it: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,128938.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,128938.0.html)

Allah (SWT) does not make mistakes and you are not a mistake, and like anybody born with anything it is a fitnah (trial), you are seeking treatment to address the physical anomaly (having the wrong body).. just like someone who is born blind or anything, transition is the way to overcome your fitnah! Muslims pioneered some of the earliest corrective surgeries.. so any arguments against medical intervention do not hold weight.

So ignore that ignorant fool who probably lacks any true ilm' or taqwa, Allah (SWT) created you that way and you should be proud of your true identity for that reason.

Salam alaykum wa rahmatullah sister

Quote from: spacial on February 13, 2013, 08:38:46 AM
I'm sure we all understand your point.

But an another, equally valid way to look at this, is not to see a disability, but a challange.

A small person will generaly, not be able to run as fast as a tall person, but with extra effort they might.

From the perspective of someone who accepts God, he didn't make a mistake making the person small, he gave them a challange.

I don't think it is yours or my place to question belief, whether it is Islam, Christianity or Atheism. Each is equally valid in that those who accpet them are hopefully comfortable.

Welcome to Susans' by the way.

Yes I am happy with all that. I was using the word disability loosely, I see it as a disability as far as I'm concerned because it makes life difficult for me, just like someone who has to be in a wheelchair has difficulties. It affects me every day, and because I look like a man I'm expected to do all of the things a man does with ease, and I find I can't, but people don't know that.
I still think that we are likely to come across a lot of discrimination from people who are comfortable in their sex, people who have their own ideas on why people are given sexual identities and perceive them to be the wrong ones. It's not often talked about in the real world either.
One of the biggest problems we face is that this is an invisible problem, we have to speak out to make our problems known. I think it's good that people can openly discuss it with their families, but I don't feel I can with mine, they are the wrong sort of family, they are Christians as well.  It's a pity they can't do more to treat the 'challenge' and make us all what we want and need to be.

Quote from: DoctorInternet333 on February 16, 2013, 04:06:21 AM

Yes I am happy with all that. I was using the word disability loosely, I see it as a disability as far as I'm concerned because it makes life difficult for me, just like someone who has to be in a wheelchair has difficulties. It affects me every day, and because I look like a man I'm expected to do all of the things a man does with ease, and I find I can't, but people don't know that.
I still think that we are likely to come across a lot of discrimination from people who are comfortable in their sex, people who have their own ideas on why people are given sexual identities and perceive them to be the wrong ones. It's not often talked about in the real world either.
One of the biggest problems we face is that this is an invisible problem, we have to speak out to make our problems known. I think it's good that people can openly discuss it with their families, but I don't feel I can with mine, they are the wrong sort of family, they are Christians as well.  It's a pity they can't do more to treat the 'challenge' and make us all what we want and need to be.

I think most reasonable people will agree with you on these points.

Thank you.