Susan's Place Transgender Resources

So my partner and I went to our usual club in the big city last night. I actually felt good about myself for once, and we had a blast dancing all night. It is a predominantly lesbian club, but on Fridays it draws tons of gay/straight people as well. At the end of the night, two lesbians came up to us and asked how my partner and I knew each other. I told her we were together and she said "but you're gay, right?" to which I replied yes (and looked confused). She asked why I was with a guy then, and I told her I was a guy. She grabbed my chest and said "you're a girl" and asked if I had the sex change surgery. I mumbled something about no, it was too expensive, and got back to my partner. Luckily we didn't stay much longer, and I kept a stone face until we got back to our hotel, but it really shook me up.

I'm very used to passing like 98% of the time. I've only ever had one incident at another gay club. I know the GLBT community is more knowledgable about trans people, so maybe they know what "clues" to look for. It was just rough to have my maleness, and gayness, questioned so openly at a place where I felt very safe. I'm trying not to let it ruin our weekend, but it's hard.

Tl;dr: Have any of you had issues at gay clubs being called out and disrespected? And if so, how did you deal with it/get over it? Thanks!!

I'm really sorry you had that experience.

One time at the bar I frequent a very rude guy started hitting on me. When I told him that I'm gay and only into women he said "but your a man" and tried to grab my crotch. Well, the next time he came in he had a cast on his wrist. No one touches me without my permission.

Never in a gay club, but I've had similar experiences with the LGB community. I am also read as male about 85-90% of the time, but in the "gay community" they read me as female and disrespect me. Which is why I distance myself from them.

Yes I've had morons taking pictures and bitchy comments,I just said **** you dirtbag.A guy stuck his hand down my top,I punched him,he fell over and didn't get up.Probably not the right thing to do but it felt a lot better than counselling about it!

That's disgusting! I am sorry that happened to you. She has no right to put her hands on you like that, especially, but also no right to question you. I wonder how many people have questioned her lesbianism in the past, asking her if perhaps she'd be curious to try having sex with a man or something like that. She should know better.

that sucks my friends grope my chest by accident all the time because they don know im trans. ive had a girl question my binder though. i find gay spaces people question me more because their options aren't just male or female boxes there is a spectrum.

People are amazingly handsy, apparently especially if they think there's something "off" with you. Exactly when did being suspicious suddenly give people the right to touch you up? They'd come away with a broken face if they tried that on me.

Quote from: Frank on February 02, 2013, 01:09:13 PM
People are amazingly handsy, apparently especially if they think there's something "off" with you. Exactly when did being suspicious suddenly give people the right to touch you up? They'd come away with a broken face if they tried that on me.

Yeah, I didn't go for his face. It was his hand that caused the problem so it was his hand that paid the price.  >:-)

I've had a lot of problems in gay clubs and spaces. I've been misgendered nearly every time I go to a gay bar or club. I was even kicked out of one for using the bathroom! So...I try to stay away.

Thanks for the replies, everyone! While it isn't a good feeling hearing that a lot of you have gone through this, it's comforting to know I'm not alone in it. I'm definitely not a violent person, so I don't think I would ever take a swing at someone. She seemed pretty drunk, which is probably why she felt entitled to question and grope me. But still, people's audacity surprises me sometimes. It saddens me to think I should avoid glbt spaces because of this, because they are one place we should feel safe. I guess that's life though. Thank you all so much for sharing your experiences!!

Just to note, A straying hand like that can also be considered assault. I've never been to a gay club, although I think it would be an interesting experience. But then again, I have grown to take a pretty dim view of the gay community. Judging from what people have posted here, they seem to be as clueless as the cis-population. Which is really sad. I mean what's so hard to understand? Leave us alone to live our lives as normally as possible. Treat others as you would want to be treated.

In my experience cis GLB people can be the most openly transphobic and feel like they have a Right to be so. I haven't had many issues with lesbians. Just normal curiosity but no hands. Gay men on the other hand have been mouthy to the point of extremely offensive and touchy.

I really wish we weren't lumped together with the GLB people. To me, being lumped together with three groups that are defined by sexuality isn't where Transgender people belong.

Quote from: Simon on February 02, 2013, 05:18:42 PM
In my experience cis GLB people can be the most openly transphobic and feel like they have a Right to be so. I haven't had many issues with lesbians. Just normal curiosity but no hands. Gay men on the other hand have been mouthy to the point of extremely offensive and touchy.

I really wish we weren't lumped together with the GLB people. To me, being lumped together with three groups that are defined by sexuality isn't where Transgender people belong.

Agreed. Sorry that happened to you, OP. Have you talked to your partner about it? It might help to have him back you up if things like this happen, you know?

She felt you up? Not cool, man!

Next time someone asks, just lie and don't let her know you're trans. She had no business prying like that.  >:(

Quote from: Simon on February 02, 2013, 05:18:42 PM
In my experience cis GLB people can be the most openly transphobic and feel like they have a Right to be so. I haven't had many issues with lesbians. Just normal curiosity but no hands. Gay men on the other hand have been mouthy to the point of extremely offensive and touchy.

I really wish we weren't lumped together with the GLB people. To me, being lumped together with three groups that are defined by sexuality isn't where Transgender people belong.

Well, they don't just judge us. There's tons of people in the LG who have a problem with the B. It's just another level of ignorance, those types of people are the one's who assume everyone has to follow along their lines else we're all just gays trying not to be. That doesn't mean we should just split up everything due to a few jarheads.

I definitely agree with your statement that cis GLB people can be the most trans phobic, Simon. I've been called out two other times since first coming out. One was at another gay club and was by a very drunk gay man, who was very aggressive towards me in the restroom and followed me back out. He then tried to fight me and made all kinds of rude remarks about my and my partners sexuality cuz I'm trans. The second was a straight guy at the same club that the incident related to this topic occurred at. I guess it would make sense for me to just avoid gay clubs since they seem to be the only place I'm harrassed, but they are also the only place my partner and I can get away to and relax. Luckily we only go out once a month or so.

Zerro, I told my partner when we got back to the hotel last night. He was drunk and I knew he would cause a scene if I told him in the club. He did contact the DJ at the club, who we are friends with. She said if it ever happened again to come straight to her and she would handle it. My partner didnt understand what was going on in the moment, or I know he would have backed me up. That in itself makes me feel bad though. Like Im weak and I can't take care of and protect myself. Ugh... Situations like this are so dysphoric and damaging. It hasn't ruined our weekend but it has been on my mind constantly. Thank you so much everyone for the support and kind words, they mean a lot!!

Simon, we're lumped together with LGB people because trans people started the modern LGBT rights movement.

Quote from: Simon on February 02, 2013, 05:18:42 PM
I really wish we weren't lumped together with the GLB people. To me, being lumped together with three groups that are defined by sexuality isn't where Transgender people belong.

Well, people are more likely to accept GLB people since they're less... well... "radical." Face it, people think that trans people are a lot stranger than GLB people. On the bright side, we can ride on the coat tails of the GLB population and make legislative strides.  :)

Man that reallllllllyyyyyyy sucks.  I'm so sorry, man.  I've never actually had anything like that happen to me.  People are generally very nice about that thing around here, but then again I've never been to a club, so maybe the scene changes there?

Quote from: Darrin Scott on February 02, 2013, 11:13:48 AM
Never in a gay club, but I've had similar experiences with the LGB community. I am also read as male about 85-90% of the time, but in the "gay community" they read me as female and disrespect me. Which is why I distance myself from them.

There were a few (very few) coy references like this in The L Word that I recall (one scene in a gay  nightclub comes to mind, I can't recall which episode or season it was, but it alluded to transphobia, in that context, applicable to transwomen, and in fact one transwoman (at least I assumed she was) who felt unsafe, or at least unwelcome in lesbian clubs. People can be ->-bleeped-<-s in any community, and while it's hopefully more rare than that among lesbians in general, there are those who will do this sort of thing. Then again, some women of any group can also be incredibly insensitive, and sometimes pull crap that no guy could hope to get away with in our culture?

Quote from: Keaira on February 02, 2013, 03:10:00 PM
Just to note, A straying hand like that can also be considered assault. I've never been to a gay club, although I think it would be an interesting experience. But then again, I have grown to take a pretty dim view of the gay community. Judging from what people have posted here, they seem to be as clueless as the cis-population. Which is really sad. I mean what's so hard to understand? Leave us alone to live our lives as normally as possible. Treat others as you would want to be treated.

Please keep in mind you're judging a group based on what one insensitive person happened to do. Drinking and thinking don't tend to mix well. I've had plenty of pleasant experiences in gay clubs, and many close friends are lesbians, though not necessarily the clubbing kind. Someone acting badly in a club, though, is always a possibility, and you may never know the reason for it. Had she just been rejected by a transman? Was she in conflict with herself and drinking too much? Perhaps she (or rather he) was a transman in deep denial himself?  Who knows? These things can happen. Try not to judge everyone based on one bad move by one individual.

Quote from: Simon on February 02, 2013, 05:18:42 PM
I really wish we weren't lumped together with the GLB people. To me, being lumped together with three groups that are defined by sexuality isn't where Transgender people belong.

i dont think transsexuals belong lumped with LGB people because gender identity and sexuality are separate. also transsexualism in my mind is a medical condition. i am closer to intersex then gay.

We're not that different. Gay people and trans people both face hate from morons for not conforming to behavior associated with their sex. Is the difference between gender identity and sexuality really relevant in LGBT?

Quote from: Albina on February 04, 2013, 04:44:52 AM
You probably didn't get the point: we were discussing it from the medical point of view, not morons'. Personally I don't see myself associated in any way with gays. You might be another matter, I don't know. It is probably a necessity to stand our rights which makes us lumped together.

I think we might make better strides if Transgender was separate. People tend to be more accepting of things that aren't sexual in nature (cause we all know, that's a sin ::)) and if the medical community said that this is a medical condition that things would get better for us faster.

I know people hate the stigma of this being a psychological condition but really, it's the best way to explain it.

I feel less and less connection to LGB people as I've got older and seen and been on the receiving end of their bad attitude and ignorance.

Ugh, this is such bad news and I'm sorry it happened to you. I need to get back into dating again and I'm looking forward to going to gay clubs, but I really don't like the thought of being treated like that.

I have no choice but to move in these circles because I'm both gay and trans, so I need to be in spaces that are safe for both.

Is this a common experience for y'all who visit gay clubs, or is it just something that happens occasionally?

Quote from: Albina on February 04, 2013, 03:02:31 AM
I fully agree. I don't want to be lumped with LGB either - we are different. And yes, we have F64.0 diagnosis with psychiatrists - that at least should cause sympathy to us from thoughtful cis people, not disdain.

Ummm....homosexuality was in the DSM.

Quote from: Albina on February 04, 2013, 04:44:52 AM
You probably didn't get the point: we were discussing it from the medical point of view, not morons'. Personally I don't see myself associated in any way with gays. You might be another matter, I don't know. It is probably a necessity to stand our rights which makes us lumped together.

LGBTQIA (etc.) is a social movement/community, not a diagnostic classification. Also, keep in mind it wasn't too many decades ago that homosexuality had its own entry in the DSM of the day (several versions ago). [Sorry to have repeated what Nygeel already pointed out].

While the jury is still out on whether or not there's an organic factor in being trangendered (or to having any of the less common orientations) -- even though same-sex attraction has been removed from the DSM, there is still reasonable speculation that orientation also has organic roots, so in that sense, at least until medical research is a lot more developed and less biased, there remains a common bond in terms of biological and medical studies.

As with anything that is social, not every aspect of being gay, lesbian, bi, poly or anything else in this world and culture actually has something to do with sexuality itself... for many it's not even the primary factor in how it shapes someone's life.

I had a very old-timer gay friend (born in the 1920s or maybe the teens) who had a very different experience than someone might have growing up today. He had an interesting career and a very full life, and, all things considered, very little sex with anyone (though one of those he did have sex with was rather famous -- also, rare for him, female).  Ultimately, our personal opinions on this don't really matter that much anyhow. There's enough common ground that, if those who rankle at being "placed" in this community had gotten their way, the only result would probably have been even worse discrimination and less progress than has been made so far. 

Frankly, from what I've seen of trans activism, while there are some awesome exceptions to this, gay and lesbian activists (and organizations) have done more for us than we have done for ourselves in many instances over the recent past.  Granted, many of those activists who started off identifying as leaders in the gay or lesbian communities, also turned out to be trans. Thankfully there have been exceptional activists who have chosen to give up privacy and the illusions of security or "stealth" to be a part of that community and ensure that at least some of our particular interests are heard when it comes to setting goals and clarifying what it will take to make this world a better place for those of us who happen to be trans (some of whom may also be gay, lesbian, bi, poly, and so on).

Quote from: FTMDiaries on February 04, 2013, 08:35:26 AM
Is this a common experience for y'all who visit gay clubs, or is it just something that happens occasionally?

I haven't been very active in gay clubs or any other clubs, but I've never had an experience like this. The worst that ever happened were stares from younger transwomen who may have been wondering why Grannie was there... and my self-consciousness about age was probably just that, my problem. I've never been treated rudely in a gay club, in my admittedly limited experience with them.  But if I were a regular, I suspect at some point I might have run into someone rude.  I've seen this depicted far more in movies and TV shows than I've ever seen it in real life.

As a pre-op trans woman, I expected to face considerable discrimination from the lesbian community. I hasn't happened, in fact, when out clubbing I've been nothing but made to feel welcome - in 1 or 2 cases, very welcome.. ;)

If I'm out clubbing, I make no secret of my past - it prevents any misunderstandings. I'm wondering if the age of the crowd I hang with has anything to do with it, they are mostly under 30's and don't seem to have some of the hang ups of the older crowd.

Now, as to whether we should be associated with the LGBQ alphabet soup? As has been pointed out, the association has been somewhat beneficial over the years. Apart from being trans, I'm also a lesbian, so I'd be a 'member' of that group any way. Is being gay and being trans the same? Not at all, but given the state of the 'trans community' I think the association is useful.

This is why I really, really dislike much of the LGBTQ community and don't consider myself a part of it. Firstly, being outed almost immediately, secondly, the audacity of some of these people. And I certainly won't go to a gay club...mainly considering I don't like clubbing, but that scene just isn't for me or my fiance.