Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I was wondering if anyone here has undergone this procedure? I'm looking to the future and researching surgeons, procedures, and costs. Any information would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Hugs,

Rhonda

Quote from: rhondabythebay on May 22, 2007, 11:11:42 PM
I was wondering if anyone here has undergone this procedure? I'm looking to the future and researching surgeons, procedures, and costs. Any information would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Hugs,

Rhonda

Dr Ousterhout pioneered this  procedure, it's called a sliding genioplasty, a lot of surgeons perform it now, costs vary from 3-11000 US $$$

My current avatar is pre-sliding genioplasty, the skin around the jaw is finally settling in nicely, this takes longer at my advanced age, I know people think I looked very feminine even with the wide jaw but I noticed that my gender was virtually unquestioned after the jaw surgery.

Quote from: melissa90299 on May 23, 2007, 08:27:09 PM
I know people think I looked very feminine even with the wide jaw but I noticed that my gender was virtually unquestioned after the jaw surgery.

Well, you do.  Do you think that you may have percieved people as questioning your gender because of your own discomfort with your jaw?  Then after surgery you may have become more relaxed with yourself and *that* is what made you more passable. :)

Wow, really?  I would have thought the costs were more than $11,000 considering  the reputation that Dr. O has in the TG community.  So he is not as expensive as some people think, huh?  and he is only 20 minutes away from me...yay!  interesting!  thanks for the tip Melissa90299!

tink :icon_chick:

Quote from: Melissa on May 23, 2007, 10:15:34 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on May 23, 2007, 08:27:09 PM
I know people think I looked very feminine even with the wide jaw but I noticed that my gender was virtually unquestioned after the jaw surgery.

Well, you do.  Do you think that you may have percieved people as questioning your gender because of your own discomfort with your jaw?  Then after surgery you may have become more relaxed with yourself and *that* is what made you more passable. :)

Oh no, definitely not, there was a dramatic yet subtle change, people who hadn't seen me in awhile couldn't figure out what I had done. My hair stylist freaked the other day when he saw me. Funny thing is that my jaw doesn't look that wide in the pics I post here, (which are pre-jaw work)but they are slightly "thinnified." And camera angle is everything.

The only thing that I am disappointed with is that my lip aug didn't completely hold but Dr O warned me that it might not and the loose skin makes me look older (actually more like my real age) but I also expected that.

Anyone want to test her passabilty quotient go hang out where there are African-American kids and gauge how they react.

I have posted before that a soft jawline is second only to lips as marker of femininity. It seems crazy but that's the way it is.



After I come back form Thailand, I plan to do a documentary on transmen and women in the Bay Area and part of the documentary will be an interview with Dr O. (If he will grant it, I haven't asked yet)

Quote from: melissa90299 on May 23, 2007, 08:27:09 PM
Dr Ousterhout pioneered this  procedure, it's called a sliding genioplasty, a lot of surgeons perform it now, costs vary from 3-11000 US $$$

Sliding genioplasty is specifically chin work, tho it is often combined with a jaw angle reduction and masseter muscle trim to give a more complete fem lower face. I see a lot more surgeons doing the chin work than the jaw bone shave.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genioplasty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genioplasty)

I also found a place in Buenos Aires, called Genderways that offers forehead, chin, jaw, and rhinoplasty, plus hotel for about 15k. Check out the web site. I'm still trying to get independent accounts of the work done.

http://www.genderways.com/en/N2/facial_feminization.htm (http://www.genderways.com/en/N2/facial_feminization.htm)


Melissa90299, which procedures did you have done on your face? I'm a little unclear on what exactly you had done.

Thanks,

Rhonda

I had scalp reduction, Type II forehead contouring, brow lift, lip lift, lip aug )as pictured...then I went back, lip lifted again, (free) and mandible surgery and sliding genioplasty.

Quote from: melissa90299 on May 24, 2007, 12:09:01 AM
I had scalp reduction, Type II forehead contouring, brow lift, lip lift, lip aug )as pictured...then I went back, lip lifted again, (free) and mandible surgery and sliding genioplasty.

The works, from Dr. O? That must have set you back a few bills. :o

Quote from: melissa90299 on May 23, 2007, 11:05:58 PM
Oh no, definitely not, there was a dramatic yet subtle change, people who hadn't seen me in awhile couldn't figure out what I had done. My hair stylist freaked the other day when he saw me. Funny thing is that my jaw doesn't look that wide in the pics I post here, (which are pre-jaw work)but they are slightly "thinnified." And camera angle is everything.

The only thing that I am disappointed with is that my lip aug didn't completely hold but Dr O warned me that it might not and the loose skin makes me look older (actually more like my real age) but I also expected that.

Ah, ok.

Quote from: melissa90299 on May 23, 2007, 11:05:58 PM
Anyone want to test her passabilty quotient go hang out where there are African-American kids and gauge how they react.

Been there, done that.  No problems.  How about passing in front of a couple hundred transgendered people?  I've done that too.

Quote from: melissa90299 on May 23, 2007, 11:05:58 PM
I have posted before that a soft jawline is second only to lips as marker of femininity. It seems crazy but that's the way it is.

Yeah, my lips are definitely female.  I agree that a softer jawline can make somebody look more feminine, but not necessarily more female (unless it's REALLY bad).

Quote from: melissa90299 on May 23, 2007, 11:05:58 PM
After I come back form Thailand, I plan to do a documentary on transmen and women in the Bay Area and part of the documentary will be an interview with Dr O. (If he will grant it, I haven't asked yet)

From what I know about him, he probably would.  It's basically free advertising for him.

Quote from: rhondabythebay on May 23, 2007, 11:46:27 PM
Sliding genioplasty is specifically chin work, tho it is often combined with a jaw angle reduction and masseter muscle trim to give a more complete fem lower face. I see a lot more surgeons doing the chin work than the jaw bone shave.

Ironically, when I had my consult with Dr. O last week, he remarked that I had a female chin and he rarely says that (like maybe 2 in a thousand). :)

Melissa

Quote from: melissa90299 on May 23, 2007, 11:05:58 PM
Anyone want to test her passabilty quotient go hang out where there are African-American kids and gauge how they react.

Umm, why African-American kids? Are they supposed to be more candid or something?

I think O is full of crap Melissa, just in my support group there are 2 that have what could be termed female chins (small, rounded and not very high). And that doesn't include my own.

If you look at my photo, you'd see that I had a very small chin for a male. The distance between the base of my nose to the glabella is longer than the distance from the base of my nose to the end of my chin.  My chin width is less than the distance between my eyes. My jaw angles (gonial angles) are 132 degree on one side, 140 on the other. That was a very open angle for a male. I basically had a female chin and jaw except for the masseter muscle.

The only thing that botters me is the masseter muscle, its bigger than a female one, an bigger on one side. It makes my jaw larger from the front than it looks from every other angle (even almost frontal ones).

I'm probably gonna get that bottoxed down soon. Many doctors now prefer taking care of the masseter though bottox than through surgery (and supposedly it is as good long term solution).

Quote from: Nero on May 24, 2007, 10:18:08 AM

Quote from: melissa90299 on May 23, 2007, 11:05:58 PM
Anyone want to test her passabilty quotient go hang out where there are African-American kids and gauge how they react.

Umm, why African-American kids? Are they supposed to be more candid or something?

I don't ever go by what people say, people lie, I can tell by the way people look at me as to how they are reading me, and African-American kids seem to have this sixth sense almost when it comes to gender.

I am OCD when it comes to the way people perceive me and it is way beyond what people say. Of course, I have the benefit of reading people's reactions before FFS and after FFS
Here comes Melissa-Nicole's brutal post-actively addicted self, BEWARE!


Quite frankly, I see more denial among transwomen and how they pass then I have ever seen in AA. I have had women tell me how great that they pass that could be clocked a mile away. And we do no one any favors by trying to convince each other how perfectly we pass. Critical, honest judgments only help us to improve.

Quote from: rhondabythebay on May 24, 2007, 12:12:23 AM

Quote from: melissa90299 on May 24, 2007, 12:09:01 AM
I had scalp reduction, Type II forehead contouring, brow lift, lip lift, lip aug )as pictured...then I went back, lip lifted again, (free) and mandible surgery and sliding genioplasty.

The works, from Dr. O? That must have set you back a few bills. :o

Not really, it was an investment that is still paying dividends.
BTW where did I say that I had the works?

Melissa, you of the brutal truth (tm) ( the numbered one :-).

Some african american children did read me  a few days ago, but from 90 feet away sideways!!!!!!
I don't think anything else but my nose (already operated on) would show from that angle.

My body type is very similar to Sharapova (not the face :-) except my thighs are more muscled and I have slightly more muscles on the shoulders. She's taller though (6 foot one vs 5 foot 11 1/2). My frame is small, I wear a 10 coat, 8 dress and pants.

At first, I guesed that it was my muscled shoulder and my height that got them pointing (it was a group of girls on the corner just out of school at the of the day). But, I think the most plausible thing is that someone noticed me during the transition and prior to rhino+brow bossing (type I) and recognized me when I passed by. That's actually more plausible than a straight read.

Inside a block away from my home there are 3 schools and 1200 grade school children, at least a third black, and this was the first time this happened!!

Anyway I see it, It really pissed me off!!!!
Even after FFS and being so thin that I'm 10 pounds away from being a size 6 model like waif, even a hint out of the gender norm can get me clocked!!!

In general, the african american community is not very tolerant of gays and anybody out of norms; that's my own experience from living in this very ethnic neighborhood all my life (25% black, 20% latino, 15% asians) and seeing how certain gays I knew where treated.

Maybe its just time I moved out of this neighborhood, although I've been comfortable here almost forever.

I am 6' 3" in my CFM boots which I wear all the time and I don't get clocked at all anymore (visually) but as Melissa1 eluded to, some of that is confidence and demeanor but if my face still looked male; all that confidence would mean squat, diminutive girls can get by with male features, I can't.

In San Francisco, if you over 5'9" you pretty much have to prove you are not TG, that sucks, I know, sometimes I feel like moving to the Deep South where I passed before FFS, you just don't get the scrutiny and there are lot of big women.

I have never figured out what the deal is with African-American kids, I used to dread walking past a group of black teenagers, now they just ignore me like they do all the other older women.

Quote from: melissa90299 on May 24, 2007, 05:03:04 PM
I am 6' 3" in my CFM boots which I wear all the time and I don't get clocked at all anymore (visually) but as Melissa1 eluded to, some of that is confidence and demeanor but if my face still looked male; all that confidence would mean squat, diminutive girls can get by with male features, I can't.

In San Francisco, if you over 5'9" you pretty much have to prove you are not TG, that sucks, I know, sometimes I feel like moving to the Deep South where I passed before FFS, you just don't get the scrutiny and there are lot of big women.

So would 5'9" and under be considered diminuitive? 

I'm currently 5'9", my face looks fairly female, my voice sounds quite female, I have no obvious markers and my mannerisms tend to be quite feminine (or so I am told).  Nobody seems to question my gender, yet I've had no surgeries with regards to my transition, nor I was one of those people who started hormones in their teens.  I'm quite proud of what I've accomplished without the use of surgeries or the benefit of starting very young and I do not appreciate people insinuating complete body surgery is necessary to pass just because they needed it and are still trying to push their insecurites on others.

If somebody passes, then wonderful.  If they don't and need surgeries and it's within their means to acquire it, then they should do so.  Be happy with yourself.  If others are happy with themselves, then there is no reason to try and bring them down by attempting to pick them apart.  The goal of transition is to be yourself, not to be the beauty queen of america or anything like that.  If somebody doesn't pass and they think they do and are happy thinking so, then it would be better to let them continue to live their life happily.

Quote from: Melissa on May 24, 2007, 05:18:14 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on May 24, 2007, 05:03:04 PM
I am 6' 3" in my CFM boots which I wear all the time and I don't get clocked at all anymore (visually) but as Melissa1 eluded to, some of that is confidence and demeanor but if my face still looked male; all that confidence would mean squat, diminutive girls can get by with male features, I can't.

In San Francisco, if you over 5'9" you pretty much have to prove you are not TG, that sucks, I know, sometimes I feel like moving to the Deep South where I passed before FFS, you just don't get the scrutiny and there are lot of big women.

So would 5'9" and under be considered diminuitive? 

I'm currently 5'9", my face looks fairly female, my voice sounds quite female, I have no obvious markers and my mannerisms tend to be quite feminine (or so I am told).  Nobody seems to question my gender, yet I've had no surgeries with regards to my transition, nor I was one of those people who started hormones in their teens. 

As well you should be but what works for you, works for you, what works for Tink or Kiera, works for them. But again I will repeat my mantra and that "passing" in the city is a whole other ball game, not to say anyone here wouldn't, it's just, well, it's like a guy playing in AAA ball coming up to the bigs, he may make it or he may not.

ha ha ha ha ha I feel like that song

do do do do do do do do

If you can make it here you can make it anywhere :)

Quote from: melissa90299 on May 24, 2007, 04:19:13 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on May 24, 2007, 12:09:01 AM
I had scalp reduction, Type II forehead contouring, brow lift, lip lift, lip aug )as pictured...then I went back, lip lifted again, (free) and mandible surgery and sliding genioplasty.

BTW where did I say that I had the works?

You didn't, there just isn't much you left out. ;D

Rhonda

Just another 12-15,000 worth of work. But what's 15k when you own  a mansion in Brentwood, drive a Bentley, get a boob job every Christmas and know what it means to be a thoroughly modern woman?
Maybe I will go back and get a rhino and the rest of the stuff.

Quote from: melissa90299 on May 24, 2007, 06:11:19 PM
I will repeat my mantra and that "passing" in the city is a whole other ball game, not to say anyone here wouldn't, it's just, well, it's like a guy playing in AAA ball coming up to the bigs, he may make it or he may not.

I would love to have this opportunity in the future sometime.  Currently I work in Portland, another extremely TS aware city, and I have absolutely no problems with passing.  When I went up to esprit last week, there were a number of people from SF that regularly work with the TG community down there and I even passed with them. :)

I lived in SFO for 4 years, telegraph hill area; that's just next to downtown, chinatown, north beach, russian hill and the whole northern tourist area. I lived there even before the current FFS "craze" 1998-2002 and I didn't spot loads of TS in those neighborhood and I'd be on the lookout for that because of my own situation.

Maybe in Castro, lower market street, tenderloin, civic center, mission, height ashbury there are a lot of TS and it can get you spotted, who knows? I don't know since I usually didn't spend too much time in those neighborhoods.

Actually, the place where I'd be most worried of being spotted as a TS is in Oakland; I lived 6 months in the Lake Merrit area (the old bourgeois neighborhood of Oakland). I am not sure where the acceptance of homophobia and mysoginy in african-american culture comes from (there was a recent discussion of this regarding the "Imus" incident); what are the historical context for its emergence?

According to the SF Chronicle, there are 19,000 transwomen living here

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

.
I attend a weekly Narcotics Anonymous African-American woman's meeting and it gives me a lot of confidence that I am accepted by the women in that group. As a woman and "of color." (Don't be fooled by the skin shade.) :)

Quote from: Melissa on May 24, 2007, 10:29:33 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on May 24, 2007, 06:11:19 PM
I will repeat my mantra and that "passing" in the city is a whole other ball game, not to say anyone here wouldn't, it's just, well, it's like a guy playing in AAA ball coming up to the bigs, he may make it or he may not.

I would love to have this opportunity in the future sometime.  Currently I work in Portland, another extremely TS aware city, and I have absolutely no problems with passing.  When I went up to esprit last week, there were a number of people from SF that regularly work with the TG community down there and I even passed with them. :)

Not trying to be catty but how does one determine is she passes with other TS women? I have been with TS women who tell me how well they pass that I clocked from a mile away. Even when they tell me that, I don't even roll my eyes or anything, I just agree with them. Of course, it is not for me to judge anyway. One, my sober self tries not to be judgmental and, two, I feel like I can read any transwoman alive.

QuoteI would love to have this opportunity in the future sometime.  Currently I work in Portland, another extremely TS aware city, and I have absolutely no problems with passing.  When I went up to esprit last week, there were a number of people from SF that regularly work with the TG community down there and I even passed with them.

You "pass" better than most women that have had 20 or 30K of facial surgery. But that is not the point is it? It is not to "pass," but to be. In that regard, I think that you [pardon me] pass the test with most women. :: quack ::

...
Thundra, that is yet another baffling judgment, how can one possibly make that determination?

QuoteThundra, that is yet another baffling judgment, how can one possibly make that determination?

::grins::  Well, that IS the point, is it not? It is most certainly not a determination. That speaks to objectivity, and there is no science of "passing." It is a subjective perception, and any comment anyone makes regarding that judgement is simply an opinion -- the personal opinion of the person stating whatever it is that they perceive to be true.

As Melissa stated, PDX is full of transitioning people of all sort. The majority of the time, I find them quite easy to pick out. Most of it based not only on radical FFS, but also attitude. It is simply my perception. No more and no less. I met Melissa one time, and she blended in really well, at least for PDX, in my opinion. I can say nothing more definitive than that.

Feel free to disagree with me at anytime, by all means. Lots of people do.

EDIT

The racial dimension to blending in society is a touchy subject. I have spent my whole life anti-racist, only to come out as trans and be confronted with difficult cultural attitudes. It's ethnic/cultural and has nothing to do with melanin, of course. This is a topic for a whole other thread, I hesitate to bring it up, but one of my trans friends is black herself and she doesn't have it any easier than me, she brought up the subject with me. I live in Washington, DC. I have been through some traumatic and scary experiences in this vein but it's hard to talk about because I'm still deeply anti-racist and I don't want anything I say about it to be taken the wrong way.

I just have to say, mature black women have consistently proven to be my best supporters, overall, of any population in the world. I love them! :)

I stand pat by saying that I don't like the esthetic of the O jawline (and he's certainly not the best to go to for rhinoplasty, but that's another story). But, I've got the feeling that he doesn't quite have a choice in that matter, to be able to reduce both side and front views of patients with an originally high jaw, there must be some limitations that the jaw itself imposes. That's probably why he says himself that he can make you look female, but cannot garantee he'll make you pretty.

If one of the dimensions (front or profile) is already fine and the jaw is not too high, I've got the feeling, that he can in fact "make you pretty", but most of these TS are probably already passable and don't got to O. For those, that have one dimension that's fine, burring the bones, what Z, Brassard and many others do, is sufficient.

BTW. In the last few years, there are many crano-facial surgeons who have started to advertise to the trans community, like Bensimon in Montreal (same office as Brassard), which can do the same thing is O for much less. These surgeons initially worked on reconstructive facial surgery of trauma victims or those with congenital or acquired deformities to the face, men or women; they are well versed in the esthetics, and techniques, of reconstructing a face.


While I do agree that in an overall context most O patient pass
absolutely, in a TS context (where you know many TS are gathered), his work is often recognizeable by the facts that each facial proportions follow his esthetic views and standards; the shear number of these fullfiled physionomy criteria makes the work recognizeable.  (that's mainly the case for those who have got the works, or a rhino from him). But, not everyone, even a TS, is so attuned to the "wonders" of FFS; only those, like me, who studied the matter extensively for their own benefit, will probably know.

There is always someone who "can do it for less" than the top guy. Do not discount the fact that no one in the field has the track record that Doug has as far as having done so many procedures without a single serious complication in the OR.

QuoteWhile I do agree that in an overall context most O patient pass
absolutely, in a TS context (where you know many TS are gathered), his work is often recognizeable by the facts that each facial proportions follow his esthetic views and standards; the shear number of these fullfiled physionomy criteria makes the work recognizeable.  (that's mainly the case for those who have got the works, or a rhino from him). But, not everyone, even a TS, is so attuned to the "wonders" of FFS; only those, like me, who studied the matter extensively for their own benefit, will probably know.

I recognize his noses, which, I believe, are great BTW, just my opinion, I am only one of three patients who he did not recommend a rhino however. As far as all his patients looking alike, that is just an "urban" myth. And although there are aesthetic considerations, Doug's work is more scientific than aesthetic.

Quote from: Thundra on June 09, 2007, 06:17:42 PM
It is not to "pass," but to be.

Yes, that is it.  I actually was able to express this in similar words last week.  I'm not passing as female, but being female.  Passing is rarely a thought in day to day life.

Quote from: Thundra on June 10, 2007, 08:37:46 PM
I met Melissa one time, and she blended in really well, at least for PDX, in my opinion. I can say nothing more definitive than that.

Yeah, and that was back in September.  I've changed a lot since then. :)

All plastic surgeons have an esthetic bias, its not all scientific, there are many ways to do things, he's the one choosing.

Melissa, I know a guy at a hospital, an old schoolmate, who reconstructs faces smashed to smithereens by traumatic accidents or missing some parts due to cancer of genetic malformations, into decent average looking faces (sometimes, even pretty). This is what cranio-facial surgeons do. There is NOTHING that O does that hasn't been done elsewhere. The only difference is that he was the first cathering is whole practice systematically to TS patients.

In plastic surgery, which works more like a business than the rest of medecine, top guys are often not better than the others, they're just better known, have a better PR machine.

In the case of plastic surgery, fear of the unknown, the lesser known doctor, rules since you can't buy a surgery and return it if you don't like the result. The most well known surgeons know about this and price themselves accordingly. Its very hard for a good surgeon to break through this fear machine and make a name for themselves, it can take a decade.

That doesn't just happen in plastic surgery, often the "top guy" is not the best, but he's the one that's got the market. IBM ruled for decades that way.

Anyway, I'll have to leave it at that.

QuoteYeah, and that was back in September.  I've changed a lot since then.

You have nothing to worry about, that's for darn sure.

I often wonder if this obsession with facial measurements is GID at it's core? I mean, I know plenty of women that don't like aspects of their features, or their look, but I've never in my life met any women that were totally OBSESSED with every millimeter of their face the way I've seen on this board.

It's like women that transition are not happy until they look like what amounts to less than ten percent of the entire female population. Most women in the world do NOT look like what the good doctor and his kind create. There is absolutely nothing wrong with changing one's face however they so choose. But, it has little to nothing to do with transitioning -- that is my opinion.

Oh man, I would love to do a jaw reduction, I think my jaw is bigger than the average female and it is so upsetting to me. I think when it come to female sexual power, the smaller the woman is, the more powerful she is because she is perceived to be more beautiful and feminine. And when I say small, obviously, I mean it is within limit, and not dwarf size. But yeah, a smaller jaw, it's to die for.

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 03, 2007, 09:12:13 PMI think when it come to female sexual power, the smaller the woman is, the more powerful she is because she is perceived to be more beautiful and feminine.

By whom? Amazon women rule!

Some of the best people whom I have met, happened to be named Rhonda, you know?  ;) :laugh:

Mine will occur in roughly 2 months. The procedure will cost me $1900.

It would have costed $250 more, had I opted to have an anesthesiologist, but I've had to endure some pretty serious stuff in my life and have survived.

I'll have it done under local.

Quote from: Keira on June 11, 2007, 11:36:00 AM



While I do agree that in an overall context most O patient pass
absolutely, in a TS context (where you know many TS are gathered), his work is often recognizeable by the facts that each facial proportions follow his esthetic views and standards; the shear number of these fullfiled physionomy criteria makes the work recognizeable.  (that's mainly the case for those who have got the works, or a rhino from him). But, not everyone, even a TS, is so attuned to the "wonders" of FFS; only those, like me, who studied the matter extensively for their own benefit, will probably know.

No one has Dr O's experience and track record for no problems in the OR. Dr O's noses are unique but other than that I would challenge anyone to pick out his work out of a "lineup." Besides, it is totally irrelevant as no one knows I had any facial work done much less than it was the work of a specific surgeon. Most of the criticism of Doug is motivated by "sour grapes."

BTW even though his noses might be recognized by .0000000000000000000000001% of the world's population, those are very nice noses, I am almost envious that I didn't need one, one of three patients out of 1000 that he did not recommend a rhino. And,  BTW I am living proof that Dr O doesn't recommend the "works" for everyone. He did not recommend a cartilage reduction either.

Dr Ousterhout, of course, has reached legendary status and there are so many myths concerning his work it is mind boggling, he has done over a thousand of these procedures, which is only a drop in the bucket considering there are millions ( TG and GG)  of women who would benefit form his work.

Quote from: melissa90299 on July 03, 2007, 09:44:09 PMAmazon women rule!

Absolutely. These days, tall women are hott.

I could swear female height has been on the rise in the USA since I was a kid. I see a lot of six-foot babes walking around these days. The aesthetic for female beauty has changed accordingly.

Well, i want to be a small woman. =0

Okay, well my problem is not so much with my masculine jaw (although that's a problem), but the bigger problem is my jaw is simply bigger than that of an average female. I think many Asian females have masculine jaw line, but the difference between these Asian women and men is that the jaw of the Asian women is smaller. *sigh*

It's funny, I don't even notice these scary features when I was a guy. I wonder would it become smaller if i starve myself or if there are some sort of facial exercise to shrink my face. Hehe. .

Quote from: melissa90299 on July 03, 2007, 09:44:09 PM

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 03, 2007, 09:12:13 PMI think when it come to female sexual power, the smaller the woman is, the more powerful she is because she is perceived to be more beautiful and feminine.

By whom? Amazon women rule!

They sure do and you and I are examples that amazon women can be attractive and pretty, too.