Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I think it's pretty straight forward. I think people in my life would accept me more if I was a lesbian and continued to date women, but I don't think I want to.

Honestly, I have received more issues from people for me being a lesbian than for me transitioning to be a woman. This includes my parents who thin it is "weird" that I want to date women.

This strikes me as a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" sort of situation. If you're straight, it "explains" why you're trans; if you're gay, then you must be some sort of fool for making dating more difficult for yourself by transitioning. The real problem is that many cis straight people don't have a good understanding of homosexuality or gender, so they're going to have issues with you no matter what you are.

My mother was very accepting of my bisexuality, but not of my trans-ness. I expect the same from others.

I actually think it's harder to be a lesbian than straight. Throughout my whole transition so far, the most shocking thing to people - especially my mother - has been that my gf and I are staying together. We have 2 kids together and after 6 years couldn't love each other anymore than we already do yet everybody just thinks that's so " weird".

Quote from: Trixie on February 25, 2013, 05:30:16 PM
My mother was very accepting of my bisexuality, but not of my trans-ness. I expect the same from others.

Heh, same. When I told my mother I thought I was attracted to girls, her reaction was "yeah, I've known since you were 13, whatever"; when I told her I thought I might be a man, she got angry told me to stop being so stupid. ::)

I said in my previous post that many folks don't really understand homosexuality -- I suppose a better way of putting it is that many folks don't understand how it interacts with gender. A lot of people are starting to be quite accepting of homosexuality in itself, which is promising. :)

Where I live and with the people around me, friend and family, I really don't think they care if I was straight or gay.

I like girls and I don't care much what people think, I know my family don't care and friends can be chosen.

my dad would no matter what but others in the family are stuck on me being a  proper young lady...
but yeah i tend to be boy crazy

Considering the ignorant comments that go along the lines of "You can't be a girl/boy, you like girls/boys.", I'd guess that people would be more accepting of you if you're straight.  :-\

Quote from: DianaP on February 25, 2013, 05:41:30 PM
Considering the ignorant comments that go along the lines of "You can't be a girl/boy, you like girls/boys.", I'd guess that people would be more accepting of you if you're straight.  :-\

If they tried that line on cis gay people, they'd lose a lot of teeth very quickly.

Quote from: AlexD on February 25, 2013, 05:43:19 PM
If they tried that line on cis gay people, they'd lose a lot of teeth very quickly.

Hey, I'm not defending them. I'm just saying that a lot of people think that sexual orientation = identity, so they'd be more accepting of straight trans people. I'm not saying that they're right, just that they think this.  :-\

Quote from: Brooke777 on February 25, 2013, 05:15:27 PM
Honestly, I have received more issues from people for me being a lesbian than for me transitioning to be a woman. This includes my parents who thin it is "weird" that I want to date women.

hahaha, my life.  there's definitely an assumption that trans ladies gotta be straighties, but i still think it's so funny that my parents maybe a little bit think i'm going through a "gay phase".

Quote from: DianaP on February 25, 2013, 05:41:30 PM
Considering the ignorant comments that go along the lines of "You can't be a girl/boy, you like girls/boys.", I'd guess that people would be more accepting of you if you're straight.  :-\

That's so true. Reminds me of a conversation I had with my mother once:

Mom: Well what about you and [so], how can you two still "love" each other?

Me: Ummm, easily. She's fine with it and has always been bi.

Mom: What about you though?

Me: What do you mean? I've always dreamed of having a wife and children, never a husband. Just because I'm trans doesn't mean I have to want a husband or boyfriend...

Mom: You just contradicted everything you've told me [I was attempting to come out clearly to her for a 3rd time] and that makes no sense.

Quote from: AlexD on February 25, 2013, 05:43:19 PM
If they tried that line on cis gay people, they'd lose a lot of teeth very quickly.

They do use that line. It's just reordered to "You can't like girls/boys, you're a girl/boy."

Which just goes to show how stupid the whole production is.

Anyways, my folks are pretty much accepting of whatever. My dad would prefer me to be straight, but that's cause he thinks me being gay makes my life more difficult, not because he's a jerk. Though I think he's quietly still hoping that I change my mind or something. Oh well.

Quote from: muuu on February 25, 2013, 05:50:33 PM
I guess there's the "why transition if you're into girls?" question...

That question is exactly the problem with talking to uninformed people about this. They don't understand that sexuality and gender are totally exclusive of each other. I definitely prefer transgender and never use transsexual. I think too many hear "transsexual" and think it's a genre of porn :/

I just realized that I misunderstood what this thread was about.

No, I don't think it makes a huge difference whether or not I'm straight or gay. I'm bi anyway. The main thing for people is likely to be that I'm trans. It's less accepted.

I don't do well with relationships anyway. There's nothing for people to be upset about if I'm single.  :-\

Quote from: muuu on February 25, 2013, 05:50:33 PM
I wonder how much you can blame it on "sexual" in "transsexual"

I just thought about that. Good point. People tend to forget to break down words. Trans = Change, sexual = Sex, i.e, gender-specific anatomical stuff. Change sex.  :P

Quote from: muuu on February 25, 2013, 05:50:33 PM
I guess there's the "why transition if you're into girls?" question... I wonder how much you can blame it on "sexual" in "transsexual", instead of transgender. Well I don't know, but I think it's a lot easier for people to accept it if there's one less thing that goes against the norm.

i use to wonder this myself but some :Pone did explain it ti me. i must admit it took a few hours to understand.i can be slow at times haha

Quote from: DianaP on February 25, 2013, 05:44:54 PM
Hey, I'm not defending them. I'm just saying that a lot of people think that sexual orientation = identity, so they'd be more accepting of straight trans people. I'm not saying that they're right, just that they think this.  :-\

Oh, I wasn't challenging you, I was agreeing with how stupid the whole thing is.

Quote from: DianaP on February 25, 2013, 05:41:30 PM
Considering the ignorant comments that go along the lines of "You can't be a girl/boy, you like girls/boys.", I'd guess that people would be more accepting of you if you're straight.  :-\

I'd have to agree with this, when I told my parents about me being trans, they were dumbfounded about how I could still be attracted to women and ask why I'd want to be a girl then. One of the number one questions I've been asked when I've outed myself is "So you like boys then?" So I'd have to say a majority of the people are more accepting to the idea of being straight than gay/lesbian.

I have to wonder in what context is this question asked.   Do you mean from the anatomical birth gender or from the Transsexual perspective?   If a M to F was attracted to females would that be considered in this question as lesbian or straight and to further convolute it, how would a  M to F that is attracted to another M to F or F to M fit into this classification?   Its easy for me to see that one persons 'straight' is anothers  G/L.   In the end ones family is the place I believe that a trans person would encounter the most problems with gender binary issues since society seems to have accepted or at least tolerates open gay/lesbian couples now.   shrugs.. IDK    I would be more accepted if there wasen't such piss poor quality control in the womb!  I swear I was conceived on a friday before a long weekend and was slapped together in there with what ever parts were on hand irrespective of what it said on the invoice.  GerrrrrRRRRRRRRR!

When I told my dad years ago, he actually said that he was glad that I was just trans and not gay. Some people do think that and some think trans equals gay. And I have one brother that says that its ok for trans people people to marry opposite their gender identity but not ok for gay people to marry the same sex. It seemed weird to me.

Quote from: Lorri Kat on February 25, 2013, 07:22:56 PM
I have to wonder in what context is this question asked.   Do you mean from the anatomical birth gender or from the Transsexual perspective?   If a M to F was attracted to females would that be considered in this question as lesbian or straight and to further convolute it, how would a  M to F that is attracted to another M to F or F to M fit into this classification?   Its easy for me to see that one persons 'straight' is anothers  G/L.   In the end ones family is the place I believe that a trans person would encounter the most problems with gender binary issues since society seems to have accepted or at least tolerates open gay/lesbian couples now.   shrugs.. IDK    I would be more accepted if there wasen't such piss poor quality control in the womb!  I swear I was conceived on a friday before a long weekend and was slapped together in there with what ever parts were on hand irrespective of what it said on the invoice.  GerrrrrRRRRRRRRR!

To be honest the way I see it is that I am a female. I have never been male and the only thing that was male was my body which does not define me at all. Since I am female, if I liked women than I would be a lesbian and if I liked men I would be considered straight.

Quote from: EmmaS on February 25, 2013, 07:53:59 PM
To be honest the way I see it is that I am a female. I have never been male and the only thing that was male was my body which does not define me at all. Since I am female, if I liked women than I would be a lesbian and if I liked men I would be considered straight.

Thats how I look at it.. :)   

I know I'm gay. I love women. I wouldn't mind being in a relationship with another trans-women(on hrt at least). Because I'm attracted to the female identity.


My dad was kind of shocked of when I told him I was still into women. He had a tougher time accepting my sexual orientation more so then my transition.

That's a very good question, but I'd like to put it this way, from personal experience:

'Do you think MTF would accept you more if you were straight or gay/lesbian?'

Almost all MTF attending MTF meetings were and are into women (only) and are biological fathers to several children (sometimes with several ex wives)

There's actually so many of them that they're a majority and automatically assume I was/am into women too.
And was as masculine as they were/are too.

No matter how detailed I try to explain that I was always feminine to begin with and into men only; they just don't or  can't believe that.
They seem to assume all MTF used to be straight, masculine men.

Which actually makes me feel like my background and history gets 'stolen' from me because of their denial.

The ones I get along fine with are their cis (ex)wives for the simple reason we can relate to eachother...because we are feminine by nature.

Those ex straight, (very) masculine MTF who think I was like them annoy me to such an extent that I quit attending MTF meetings.

I have no social or whatever problems in daily life while interacting with people/strangers...
Only with MTF, explaining myself over and over again that I'm not and never was into women..and sometimes trying to fend off being hit on, even AFTER explaining I'm NOT into women and the likes.

Sorry to hear about your experience. This must be an isolated thing because I've never seen or heard of that sort of reaction down here in central Florida. I am a parent with 2 kids and a longtime gf, andI  have never had anything other than a mild interest in men. I haven't met anyone like me in person yet. Everyone I know is straight (mtf who like men).

My family and friends don't care either way. I'm straight. Don't really know my sexuality 100% though and not too worried about it at this point in my transition. All and All I really don't care about them being accepting of who I love.

Quote from: girl you look fierce on February 26, 2013, 09:17:57 AM
Yeah I do think the main thing people have trouble accepting is not the occasional MTF lesbian but the majority of MTFs being lesbian, iirc it was about 70-80% (self reported) or more of MTFs but it is only 5ish for cis women.

I think it has a lot to do with socializing and growing up male. I think many of us who are bisexual by nature (let's admit it too, I think to some degree EVERYONE is a little bisexual; consciously or subconsciously) have just internalized an attraction to women because we were told to. Frankly though I love people for what's in their head not their pants. That person just happened to be a woman.

I'm neither until I figure out what's moral.
We'll see if I can adjust to what's moral when the time comes; I'm not at all sure if I can, although I'm sure bisexual physical-attraction tendencies would help in that regard.

I don't think it'll make a difference for acceptance, though. If I'm already wrong in others' eyes for transitioning, I can't see how sexuality would ... Make things more wrong?

This has been your recommended monthly dose of That Strange Conservative Christian Girl's Viewpoint (tm). See a doctor if you believe you have exceeded your maximum allowed dosage for the month.

Quote from: ZoeM on February 26, 2013, 09:54:14 AM
I'm neither until I figure out what's moral.
We'll see if I can adjust to what's moral when the time comes; I'm not at all sure if I can, although I'm sure bisexual physical-attraction tendencies would help in that regard.

I don't think it'll make a difference for acceptance, though. If I'm already wrong in others' eyes for transitioning, I can't see how sexuality would ... Make things more wrong?

This has been your recommended monthly dose of That Strange Conservative Christian Girl's Viewpoint (tm). See a doctor if you believe you have exceeded your maximum allowed dosage for the month.

I don't think anything regarding sexual identity should be considered immoral. I mean technical although indirectly, according to the bible being trans is also immoral. But so is working on Sunday and not wearing wool clothing.

Quote from: girl you look fierce on February 26, 2013, 09:17:57 AM
Yeah I do think the main thing people have trouble accepting is not the occasional MTF lesbian but the majority of MTFs being lesbian, iirc it was about 70-80% (self reported) or more of MTFs but it is only 5ish for cis women.

Are you sure its 70-80% I thought it would be higher. :laugh: I've only met one other MTF in person that view's herself as straight. I'm starting to believe we are somewhat of a rarity.

Quote from: Heather on February 26, 2013, 10:01:23 AM
Are you sure its 70-80% I thought it would be higher. :laugh: I've only met one other MTF in person that view's herself as straight. I'm starting to believe we are somewhat of a rarity.

Really ? We are? Wow. I havent met many trans people, but there didnt seem to be a lack of us with guys for partners or who spoke about having male partners at some point. Like I said tho, I dont know many.

Also, zoem ... I think it would be sad if your religion makes you question the morality of who you are, but then, I never understood the logic of a God who would make somebody something and then tell them not to be it. Lol.

Quote from: Steph21 on February 26, 2013, 10:15:15 AM
Really ? We are? Wow. I havent met many trans people, but there didnt seem to be a lack of us with guys for partners or who spoke about having male partners at some point. Like I said tho, I dont know many.

I had assumption that most would like men like me! I was wrong which actually scared me at first. Because I had the fear that my mom was right and I was just a gay guy who couldn't accept it. When I kept telling her I viewed myself as a straight woman.

As a "woman" liking to be with a man make me Straight.  If society calls this being gay it is their problem, not mine, they are WRONG.

As a woman who also likes to be with women in a lesbian relationship make me Bi.

But then Bi wasn't one of your options.

Quote from: Heather on February 26, 2013, 10:27:46 AM
I had assumption that most would like men like me! I was wrong which actually scared me at first. Because I had the fear that my mom was right and I was just a gay guy who couldn't accept it. When I kept telling her I viewed myself as a straight woman.

I thought the exact opposite. I figured most trans women would identify as gay. But, I have only met one who fully identifies as gay. I have met a lot of straight women, and several bi, but only one other gay woman. In my area, I believe I am the minority being gay. It is looking like all areas are a bit different.

Quote from: Michelle Stone on February 26, 2013, 10:00:26 AM
I don't think anything regarding sexual identity should be considered immoral. I mean technical although indirectly, according to the bible being trans is also immoral. But so is working on Sunday and not wearing wool clothing.

It's not really up to me. Or anyone else in the last 2000-ish years.
I've been able to convince myself that transition is, if not a Good Thing (tm), at least OK in the eyes of God. No such luck with sexuality, on which subject both Old and New Testament are quite explicit.

I will not begrudge anyone who thinks I'm in the wrong, though. Not the best idea to assume my own interpretation of scripture is the Real Right One (tm)...

Ok, now you've had triple the recommended dose of Viewpoint. Best go detox. :P

Quote from: girl you look fierce on February 26, 2013, 10:37:04 AM

Personally I never felt a strong sexuality, I mean I experimented with boys as a kid but that is normal... I didn't date anyone or want to until I met my bf and everything just felt right... so it's not like I'm claiming to be super normal either.  I just don't think you can be raised into a sexuality is all, cause gay people have been fighting for years to get people to accept that it is not a choice.

I was joking with 70-80% commit! But I didn't have a strong sense of my sexuality growing up ether I tried liking women because that's what I was supposed to do. But that never felt right to me. As far as liking guys I never viewed myself as a gay guy so I was confused about my attraction towards them. And I was having my gender issues all throughout this time in my life.  :'(

so 70-80% of trans m to f's are gay? yay more guys for me!

I highly doubt that, the huge majority of those I've talked to are straight, but I guess who knows.

darn. i was hopping for less competition  :(

Quote from: Tristan on February 26, 2013, 04:54:32 PM
darn. i was hopping for less competition  :(

I for one will definitely stay out of your way  ;)

Quote from: Tristan on February 26, 2013, 04:54:32 PM
darn. i was hopping for less competition  :(

A little competition is a good thing! :)

Quote from: Tristan on February 26, 2013, 04:54:32 PM
darn. i was hopping for less competition  :(

I think it makes it more interesting and fun :)

Quote from: Tristan on February 26, 2013, 04:54:32 PM
darn. i was hopping for less competition  :(

Look on the bright side. If there's competition and someone is with you, it means you won!  ;D

yeah ladies your all right. competition with the guys can be fun. they do love it when we play the weak and innocent card and pretend to be dumb. i know those are some of my trump cards. although im only partly pretending to be dumb. haha  :angel:

Quote from: Tristan on February 26, 2013, 11:03:05 PM
yeah ladies your all right. competition with the guys can be fun. they do love it when we play the weak and innocent card and pretend to be dumb. i know those are some of my trump cards. although im only partly pretending to be dumb. haha  :angel:

Huh?  :icon_confused:

lol exactly

When I came out to my brother as trans, he thought it was because I did some gay things in my past so I am straight trying to conform to the "norms" or something overly complex. When I came out to my mother as trans, she thought that I was gay. A friend of mine also thought the same as my mother. Another friend didn't even bring sexuality into the conversation. I take a liking to people in general, so people then assume bisexual but for me it goes beyond that. However it goes, I can't seem to catch a break in explaining the differences in sexuality and gender.

Quote from: DirtyFox on February 27, 2013, 12:36:17 AM
However it goes, I can't seem to catch a break in explaining the differences in sexuality and gender.

I always say sexuality determines who you sexually want/want to be with and your gender is who you are. One determines who you are and one determines what you like. That's how I usually lay it out and people generally seem to understand it then.

Quote from: EmmaS on February 27, 2013, 12:38:57 AM
I always say sexuality determines who you sexually want/want to be with and your gender is who you are. One determines who you are and one determines what you like. That's how I usually lay it out and people generally seem to understand it then.

Definitely a concise way of putting it as opposed to my long winded tangents trying to explain it, thanks =). It just gets really frustrating having to explain it so many times, even to health professionals/therapists.

Quote from: DirtyFox on February 27, 2013, 12:48:51 AM
Definitely a concise way of putting it as opposed to my long winded tangents trying to explain it, thanks =). It just gets really frustrating having to explain it so many times, even to health professionals/therapists.

No problem, it's really frustrating that people don't know the difference, it seems like common sense to me. I'm appalled to hear health professionals and therapists not knowing the difference -_-

Quote from: Michelle Stone on February 26, 2013, 09:24:39 AM
have just internalized an attraction to women because we were told to.

If that was really the case....there wouldn't be no gay men eh? :D

Quote from: girl you look fierce on February 26, 2013, 10:37:04 AM
I just don't think you can be raised into a sexuality is all, cause gay people have been fighting for years to get people to accept that it is not a choice.

That's a very accurate explaination...it's just a silly excuse made by lesbian MTF.....I've read this before....'raised to be a straight guy who should be into women'...etc.

Well there are two arguments for what drives our sexuality. It's between genetics and societal influences; neither has been proven and both have a lot of backing and support.

that's 'cuz they probably both have a hand in it.

Quote from: EmmaS on February 27, 2013, 04:21:43 AM
and societal influences; neither has been proven

Sexual orientation is inborn....but on the other hand: there are some MTF who go from straight men (and biological fathers!)  to being straight women.

'Societal influences' is in this case something like (subconcious) 'hetero normativity'....'I am a woman now and there's supposed to be man at my side/in my neo vagina'.

MTF 'chameleons'...

Quote from: Dahlia on February 27, 2013, 04:34:14 AM
Sexual orientation is inborn

That hasn't been proven. It could be eventually, but as of now it has not.

Quote from: EmmaS on February 27, 2013, 04:39:33 AM
That hasn't been proven. It could be eventually, but as of now it has not.

Gender ID is inborn too. Think of Bruce/Brenda-John/Joan- David Reimer. That's been proven at the cost of his life, in the end.

He didn't exactly 'choose', didn't he?

Quote from: Dahlia on February 27, 2013, 04:34:14 AM
Sexual orientation is inborn....but on the other hand: there are some MTF who go from straight men (and biological fathers!)  to being straight women.

'Societal influences' is in this case something like (subconcious) 'hetero normativity'....'I am a woman now and there's supposed to be man at my side/in my neo vagina'.

MTF 'chameleons'...

yeah, i'm w/ emma on this one, i think social influences are AT LEAST as much the cause of sexual attraction as any genetic component, if not more.
i pointed it out on another thread around a month ago, but why else would we idealize like skinny femme cis white girls as The Pinnacle Of Western Beauty?  ain't no reason they should be genetically more enticing than anyone else.

Quote from: Dahlia on February 27, 2013, 04:43:37 AM
Gender ID is inborn too. Think of Bruce/Brenda-John/Joan- David Reimer. That's been proven at the cost of his life, in the end.

He didn't exactly 'choose', didn't he?

ain't been proven, either.  that's a single case.  besides, we don't even have a universal system of genders—those vary socially, and some societies have three or four or more genders.  doesn't sound much like the sort of thing that's inborn to me.

Quote from: Dahlia on February 27, 2013, 04:43:37 AM
Gender ID is inborn too. Think of Bruce/Brenda-John/Joan- David Reimer. That's been proven at the cost of his life, in the end.

He didn't exactly 'choose', didn't he?

I'm not stating my opinion on the subject. I'm saying there isn't a definite answer of whether it's genetic or determined at birth; you were saying on another post to supply proof. All that is out there opinion, speculation, and debate. I'm not saying I want it to be determined one way or another, it's just not "scientifically" proven yet. I want whatever helps us the most in society to be the way it was determined ultimately.

Quote from: girl you look fierce on February 25, 2013, 05:16:43 PM
Well I'm straight and I definitely do think it's easier to be straight because it's what people expect.

I don't think so. What people expect doesn't really matter, if they have a problem with you for being trans, they're gonna say something whether you're straight or gay.

Plus I think straight transwomen have it harder with relationships than translesbians.

Quote from: EmmaS on February 27, 2013, 04:21:43 AM
Well there are two arguments for what drives our sexuality. It's between genetics and societal influences; neither has been proven and both have a lot of backing and support.

There's also chemical imbalance in the womb.

I don't think it has anything to do with societal influence imo; wouldn't there be more gay people then? Plus those urges are there for a reason, they're for reproduction. Most animals don't need to learn who they should mate with, it just is. Wouldn't it make more sense that sexuality is wired in and not taught?

Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on February 27, 2013, 04:51:13 AM
I don't think it has anything to do with societal influence imo; wouldn't there be more gay people then?

That's one argument essentialist use against the social constructionist view, but each side has solid arguments to be honest.

What would some of those be?

Quote from: transtrender on February 27, 2013, 04:46:19 AMi think social influences are AT LEAST as much the cause of sexual attraction as any genetic component, if not more.

Son (born and living in the Western World): 'Mother I have to tell you something'

Mother: 'what my dear?'

Son: 'I'm into men only, I'm gay'

Mother: 'WHAT?? MY SON, GAY??? WHAT HAVE I DONE WRONG?' (starts crying and sobbing)

Father: (while listening in) 'it's our fault! We've socially influenced him wrongly!'

Mother: WHAT? WE DIDN'T BEHAVE STRAIGHT ENOUGH?? OUR NEIGHBOURS, OUR RELATIVES, EVEN THE DISTANCE ONES ARE ALL STRAIGHT AS A LINE!!
WE ARE STRAIGHT AND WE'VE RAISED HIM TO BE STRAIGHT LIVING IN A STRAIGHT WORLD!!'

Father: 'yes mother, you're right! Then it MUST be something else!'

Mother: 'like what??'

Father: 'a genetic component'

There are a lot of influences that come from the Roman empire period where sexually was a lot more open than it is now. I'm not here to say that's how it happens, but there are a lot smarter people than me writing papers for each argument. If I list an argument, I have no doubt you can rebuttal and then vice versa, but to be honest I'm not saying one is correct. I personally think it's a mixture of both but who knows.

well, 'n there's the fallacy.  parents aren't the only (or even the primary) societal influence that kids receive as they grow up. 

('sides, i think there'd be hells of more people without a specific strong preference (and a lot more same-sex relationships) if we didn't have the society we do today, that encourages people to repress their homo feelings.)

Quote from: EmmaS on February 27, 2013, 05:01:22 AM
There are a lot of influences that come from the Roman empire period where sexually was a lot more open than it is now. I'm not here to say that's how it happens, but there are a lot smarter people than me writing papers for each argument. If I list an argument, I have no doubt you can rebuttal and then vice versa, but to be honest I'm not saying one is correct. I personally think it's a mixture of both but who knows.

yeah, i mean, there are places where same-sex attraction is/was institutionalized, perhaps most famously in ancient greece, where it's totally ok to be gay, long's one of them's a strapping young little number 'n the other one is his creepy old mentor.

Quote from: transtrender on February 27, 2013, 05:04:51 AM
well, 'n there's the fallacy.  parents aren't the only (or even the primary) societal influence that kids receive as they grow up. 

('sides, i think there'd be hells of more people without a specific strong preference (and a lot more same-sex relationships) if we didn't have the society we do today, that encourages people to repress their homo feelings.)

Sure! Bisexuals DO have a choice between straight and gay and almost always choose to live life as 'straight'.
The easy way out.

Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on February 27, 2013, 04:51:13 AM
Most animals don't need to learn who they should mate with, it just is. Wouldn't it make more sense that sexuality is wired in and not taught?

Exactly. If gender and sexuality were influenced by society then I'd be seeking normalcy conversion therapy. If you can influence one way then you can influence back. And say goodbye to your rights. Societal pressures will also often push individuals away from their instinctive nature to fit in. But this doesn't change their fundamental wiring. Given the right conditions, they will revert to instinct.

Quote from: Tesla on February 27, 2013, 05:15:54 AM
Exactly. If gender and sexuality were influenced by society then I'd be seeking normalcy conversion therapy. If you can influence one way then you can influence back. And say goodbye to your rights. Societal pressures will also often push individuals away from their instinctive nature to fit in. But this doesn't change their fundamental wiring. Given the right conditions, they will revert to instinct.

don't confuse societally influenced with "voluntary".  our social environment isn't the sort of thing that manipulates us consciously, so by the same token, it's not really possible for us to manipulate it in return.  not to mention it's not necessarily the sort of thing that's alterable after a certain point, barring sea changes in environment/perception/both.

Quote from: transtrender on February 27, 2013, 05:26:36 AM
don't confuse societally influenced with "voluntary".  our social environment isn't the sort of thing that manipulates us consciously, so by the same token, it's not really possible for us to manipulate it in return.  not to mention it's not necessarily the sort of thing that's alterable after a certain point, barring sea changes in environment/perception/both.

It still doesn't explain why the overwhelming majority of MTF consists ex straight, formerly functional cis men (bio father of several children)/lesbians.

What would be 'the influence' amongst those?

Overidentification with women? A deep rooted neurosis? Self manipulation? Auto suggestion?

Surely not manipulated or influenced into becoming MTF by society in general.

Quote from: EmmaS on February 27, 2013, 04:39:33 AM
That hasn't been proven. It could be eventually, but as of now it has not.

If sexual orientation could be proven from birth then I think people would finally be more susceptible to others when they announce that they are whatever they are.

Quote from: Imreallyconfused on February 27, 2013, 05:45:32 AM
If sexual orientation could be proven from birth then I think people would finally be more susceptible to others when they announce that they are whatever they are.

Why do you think it's so interesting they want to find a "gay" gene.?

Quote from: EmmaS on February 27, 2013, 05:49:22 AM
Why do you think it's so interesting they want to find a "gay" gene.?

I think if they really want to find something like that so intently, then there must be a line that would make them more understanding. There is a fine psychological line between curiosity and understanding as well as (in my opinion) the ability to accept what they find.

Quote from: Imreallyconfused on February 27, 2013, 05:53:02 AM
I think if they really want to find something like that so intently, then there must be a line that would make them more understanding. There is a fine psychological line between curiosity and understanding as well as (in my opinion) the ability to accept what they find.

That's what this whole debate is about though. One side believes there is a gay gene and the other does not, it's an essentialist view vs a social constructionist view.

Well I don't think its a gene. I think its more or less whats in your soul. I believe to the depths of my soul that I am a woman at heart. Genes will never be able to prove or disprove that. People need to stop thinking so scientifically and understand people as people, not lab rats.

Quote from: Mellysia on February 27, 2013, 05:58:08 AM
Well I don't think its a gene. I think its more or less whats in your soul. I believe to the depths of my soul that I am a woman at heart. Genes will never be able to prove or disprove that. People need to stop thinking so scientifically and understand people as people, not lab rats.

It's a little obscene to go as far and think that believing there is gay gene to comparing people as lab rats, don't you think? Either way, I don't care what the reason is, I'm happy with myself, but there is nothing wrong with speculating.

Quote from: EmmaS on February 27, 2013, 06:00:11 AM
It's a little obscene to go as far and think that believing there is gay gene to comparing people as lab rats, don't you think? Either way, I don't care what the reason is, I'm happy with myself, but there is nothing wrong with speculating.

Yeh I went a bit far off the edge of that one, but I think you got the point I was making. If people believe that their is or isn't a gene, either way its going to get very scientific very fast. Eventually they will do tests and then after that, I don't want to know what kind of weirdness they will attempt. I hate myself for now, but soon hopefully I will be happy just like you.

Quote from: Mellysia on February 27, 2013, 06:02:40 AM
Yeh I went a bit far off the edge of that one, but I think you got the point I was making. If people believe that their is or isn't a gene, either way its going to get very scientific very fast. Eventually they will do tests and then after that, I don't want to know what kind of weirdness they will attempt. I hate myself for now, but soon hopefully I will be happy just like you.

Sure, I can see where you are coming from. Well I'm "happy" with where I am going; I shouldn't say as of now, I'm definitely not yet, not even close, but we will get there :)

Quote from: TessaM on February 27, 2013, 06:18:03 AM
I think sexuality as well as your sex/gender are inborn. Your environment has an influence however. Why would (as another poster noted) people think of certain women as "hot" and others as "not" for example? Being a flaming homo or being a woman despite what your anatomy tells you is completely ingrained in that brain of yours.

Well your brain doesn't tell you what to think when it comes to your sex/gender. That's all up to how you feel which isn't totally dependent on your brain. The brain has a bit to do with it, but more or less when someone tells you that they are a woman trapped in a man's body, they don't say it was their brain that told them. They normally say deep in their hearts/soul is where the feeling came from.

Quote from: Mellysia on February 27, 2013, 06:33:28 AM
Well your brain doesn't tell you what to think when it comes to your sex/gender. That's all up to how you feel which isn't totally dependent on your brain. The brain has a bit to do with it, but more or less when someone tells you that they are a woman trapped in a man's body, they don't say it was their brain that told them. They normally say deep in their hearts/soul is where the feeling came from.

Hmm, I'm mixed with this because I feel as if I have a female brain and a male body and so I need to change my body to match that, but I see your point of using your heart as well, but not sure what that would be considered "technically".

Quote from: EmmaS on February 27, 2013, 06:35:33 AM
Hmm, I'm mixed with this because I feel as if I have a female brain and a male body and so I need to change my body to match that, but I see your point of using your heart as well, but not sure what that would be considered "technically".

Eh I thought I stopped using technically. Bleh, I used it a lot when I was younger because I used to be a competitive arguer so that was more or less used a a break in thought to move to another subject, but within the same theme. Been trying to stop using it because it's misleading.

Quote from: TessaM on February 27, 2013, 06:40:31 AM
A "soul" does not exist and a heart pumps blood in your body

I believe the soul exists and the heart isn't only good for pumping blood.

Quote from: Mellysia on February 27, 2013, 06:43:45 AM
I believe the soul exists and the heart isn't only good for pumping blood.

Now we're simply talking metaphors. Genes + environment = you/soul. Otherwise we start introducing the supernatural component to define sexuality and gender.

Well I just wonder what heartbreak actually is, because it's much more intense than just emotional pain in my opinion. Is it just that? Intensified emotional pain?

Quote from: EmmaS on February 27, 2013, 06:50:31 AM
Well I just wonder what heartbreak actually is, because it's much more intense than just emotional pain in my opinion. Is it just that? Intensified emotional pain?

That's what I define as having a soul. Without a soul, we are emotionless creatures with no morality. When you have a broken heart, sometimes, but not always ( I am one of them) my chest hurts right where my heart is.

I don't consider emotions part of a soul, but that's my opinion.

sounds like we need to all go out and have some fun and put some of these theories to the test over happy hour  >:-)

I have no idea. It's a very hard question.

If you're homosexual, people just have to accept that you're not a closeted gay or anything like that.

If you're heterosexual, people are more likely to think of you as a "real girl" and understand you, because "normal girls" are into men, and most women you come out to are and can relate.

A lot of people seem to think a lesbian is a woman who has a somewhat masculine core, somehow, so it might make you less "valid" in their eyes. "Okay, you've got a lot of woman, but see? A lot of guy too, since you're into girls!"

They might also think you're a pervert for being into women and wanting to be a woman; something like the  ->-bleeped-<- theory.

Both have advantages and disadvantages when it comes to acceptance. Very hard to pick one.

Though I think being asexual is the best in that regard, because people will think "obviously, something is wrong", and can't think you're a pervert.

What I have, "undetermined, unsure sexual orientation" isn't as good, because then, people might think that confused with sexual orientation = confused with sexual identity = this might all be a mistake.

Well after much contemplation and looking into my past years, I know it's not a mistake cause I've been living it in secret for the better part of 24 years. I am a woman, therefore unless I am outlandishly crazy and would stay looking like this, I want to look as I feel. Womanly and curvy. I feel so attached to my womanly self that I can't function sexually as a man with a woman. It's literally impossible. It no longer feels nice anymore because I want to be on the receiving end, not the giving.

On the note of sexuality/gender being natural vs. environmental:

I can completely understand that neither has been scientifically proven, as none of the available data can be definitively tethered to something scientific. However, I think it's nearing absurdity to believe that either sexuality or gender identity is anything but natural or genetic (please note I am not saying that there aren't individuals who make the choice against their inclinations, though I believe them to be rare). There are countless examples spanning the entirety of our species' existence that reflect the reality of homosexuality or gender incongruence. It's a static occurrence in every single culture to have ever existed, many times being against the individual's well-being; the evidence to this much is overwhelming.

It is true that there is cultural magnetism to certain habits, but these are very obviously either defined by a society's growth towards comfort (such as with the Greeks, who were not necessarily sexually attracted to the same gender, but saw nothing wrong with providing each other gratification), or by an individual's natural inclination to establish preferences (fetishes, hair color preferences, body preferences, etc.) within their own pre-existing sexual basis, i.e. women, men or both. This same determination occurs for gender expression: an individual has an established identity and their expression of that identity is a reflection of their growth. Of course exposure to one's environment will help shape an individual's growth, as we can only experience what we are exposed to, but it will not define (or redefine) their basis.

If nothing else, I feel the biology view just bleeds both common sense and good will. I am admittedly embarrassed for our species that we cling to dismissive, grasping arguments despite our history screaming otherwise at us.

Quote from: Sybil on February 27, 2013, 09:37:26 PM
I am admittedly embarrassed for our species that we cling to dismissive, grasping arguments despite our history screaming otherwise at us.

If it was so blatantly obvious, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. Though, from your message I would guess you have no interest in having an open mind.

Quote from: EmmaS on February 27, 2013, 09:48:41 PM
If it was so blatantly obvious, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. Though, from your message I would guess you have no interest in having an open mind.

Very nice. That would be the fallacies of confusing cause and effect as well as poisoning the well.

I think people who adamantly try to make the environment argument are the ones who lack an open mind (see below). Also, my message opened by indeed having an open mind: I admitted that there is no scientific evidence fully supporting either argument, and by virtue admitted that they are just that: arguments.

My "message" was nothing but that humanity has a very long and very indulged history of having homosexual and gender incongruent people in it. They have existed, without bias, across all of the environments that we have engineered. That is a very powerful constant that says a great deal for genetics. It really speaks volumes for genetics in terms of probability, which is the most unbiased information available.

I feel that people who chase the environment argument are out to hurt or quell people like us. I can't help but feel that the logical thing to do would be to treat us in a humanitarian fashion and assume that we are valid until proven otherwise. What we are and do is harmless, and without science to disprove our biology, believing the environmental view only really serves the purpose of disbelieving in us, and I doubt that I have to explain the repercussions of that to anyone reading this thread. I'm sorry if my distaste for that bothers you, but at least I can admit as much and that I understand my belief is not proven, either. Which I did before you addressed me.

Finally: if human beings were so inclined to follow the obvious, then the world would be a very different place.

QuoteFinally: if human beings were so inclined to follow the obvious, then the world would be a very different place.

Well that is a wish that unfortunately, unless people use their heads, will never happen. People are bred to think a certain way. If people were born not to think a certain way and find out for themselves the ways of life, yes indeed this would would be a lot different.

Quote from: Sybil on February 27, 2013, 10:13:51 PM
Very nice. That would be the fallacies of confusing cause and effect as well as poisoning the well.

I think people who adamantly try to make the environment argument are the ones who lack an open mind (see below). Also, my message opened by indeed having an open mind: I admitted that there is no scientific evidence fully supporting either argument, and by virtue admitted that they are just that: arguments.

My "message" was nothing but that humanity has a very long and very indulged history of having homosexual and gender incongruent people in it. They have existed, without bias, across all of the environments that we have engineered. That is a very powerful constant that says a great deal for genetics. It really speaks volumes for genetics in terms of probability, which is the most unbiased information available.

I feel that people who chase the environment argument are out to hurt or quell people like us. I can't help but feel that the logical thing to do would be to treat us in a humanitarian fashion and assume that we are valid until proven otherwise. What we are and do is harmless, and without science to disprove our biology, believing the environmental view only really serves the purpose of disbelieving in us, and I doubt that I have to explain the repercussions of that to anyone reading this thread. I'm sorry if my distaste for that bothers you, but at least I can admit as much and that I understand my belief is not proven, either. Which I did before you addressed me.

Finally: if human beings were so inclined to follow the obvious, then the world would be a very different place.

You're not making any points that change anything, but I guess since you think you're smarter than everyone else then you must be right! I'm wasting my time talking to someone who is condescending and far too cynical to have a rational argument without insulting others for their beliefs. By saying one who believes in a particular view is close minded is contradicting the very thing you are arguing for. If I told you that the essentialist/biological view was nonsensical and anyone who believed in it was an oblivious idiot then you would call me close minded, but that's exactly what you did.

I think people have an easier time with it if you're straight. IDK why... I just do. I'm glad I'm not a lesbian... I wonder if cis women are a little more guarded around lesbians... especially trans lesbians.

But I think it's harder to find a relationship as a straight trans girl than it is a lesbian. Men seem to worry about if they're going to get seen as "gay" if someone finds out. Sex has to be easier to get for us straight girls though... I could probably get laid any time I want now =/

As to the nature/nurture debate on sexuality: honestly, there's such a huge political investment in believing it's biological. I'm pretty sure I wasn't 'born' wanting sex with men. 'Rooster' is an acquired taste for me. Which doesn't make it any less real or changeable.

Quote from: EmmaS on February 27, 2013, 11:13:35 PM
You're not making any points that change anything, but I guess since you think you're smarter than everyone else then you must be right! I'm wasting my time talking to someone who is condescending and far too cynical to have a rational argument without insulting others for their beliefs. By saying one who believes in a particular view is close minded is contradicting the very thing you are arguing for. If I told you that the essentialist/biological view was nonsensical and anyone who believed in it was an oblivious idiot then you would call me close minded, but that's exactly what you did.

Good grief. Do some reading: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/)

All you're doing here is putting words in my mouth and attacking my character. You're going so far as to fabricate my perceptions for me. Smearing buzz words all over me and then painting straw mans does not make your accusations valid (neither does it reflect the conversational chastity you purport to encourage).

I provided reasons for the way I felt that I did. You're skirting around what I said and trying to attack me because my post rubbed you the wrong way - i.e. you don't like that I have a low tolerance for a view that I feel is hurtful to people who already have it bad. Is it because you defended the right to that belief in this thread? I didn't attack you or anyone else here personally -- but if you take it personally because I feel a given belief is extremely hurtful, there's no way I'm apologizing for that! If you think that means I believe I'm some super genius who trounces everyone, then so be it: please forgive my wrong-doing humanitarianism that is just profoundly dripping with hubris and so telling of my overall character.

Your core argument against me is flawed: closed-mindedness comes exactly from subscribing to certain beliefs. You're trying to create a loophole to attack me and at the same time find exemption yourself from the loophole, then go on to construct insults to exaggerate what I have said. Just because you can believe in something, it doesn't mean it's healthy or productive.

What did I say? I said that the environmental belief "nears absurdity" and that I am ashamed people "adamantly believe" and "cling to" that belief when all it does is hurt people. I said nothing of anyone who regards it as a possibility, as I myself admitted to there being no proof to the contrary. I explicitly stated I had an issue with the choice to believe that theory despite there being no evidence for it, and the opposing theory being both more readily benevolent and believable given history. I didn't even mention the overall integrity of those people, merely my distaste for believing in that specific theory itself.

If you have so much of an issue with it (or me) that you have to literally make up things to attack me with, at least argue why I shouldn't feel the way I do instead of simply telling me I'm "not making any points that change anything," that I think I'm smarter than everyone, and fortune telling aspects of my character because of how you chose to read my post. Attacking someone's character (even if they ARE terrible!) does not refute anything they say.

You two shouldn't attack eachother. This is suppose to be a happy happy support site. :D

Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on February 28, 2013, 12:02:06 AM
As to the nature/nurture debate on sexuality: honestly, there's such a huge political investment in believing it's biological. I'm pretty sure I wasn't 'born' wanting sex with men. 'Rooster' is an acquired taste for me. Which doesn't make it any less real or changeable.

I'm really curious: what's "rooster"?

I can definitely understand the political investment: it's easier to make people put their animosity down by telling them it's "natural." As for being born wanting sex with a given gender, I'm pretty sure I was born to eventually develop a desire for men. I'm also open to women if the right one comes along, but it's not something I ever find myself looking for or wanting. I like to remain open, though, as I never know -- that much was a development for sure.

Edit to avoid post clutter:

Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on February 28, 2013, 12:25:10 AM
You two shouldn't attack eachother. This is suppose to be a happy happy support site. :D

I feel much more like I'm defending than attacking, but I would definitely rather be doing neither. I think attacking an opinion is fine (that's the nature of debate), but not a person.

Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on February 28, 2013, 12:25:10 AM
You two shouldn't attack eachother. This is suppose to be a happy happy support site. :D

I haven't attacked anyone; all I did was defend what I have been saying while someone else has been insulting me for no reason at all. I do think Sybil isn't a very nice person; it's nothing against them, but they were rude and not civil. I have nothing else to say to someone who is only good at condescending others.

Quote" As for being born wanting sex with a given gender, I'm pretty sure I was born to eventually develop a desire for men. I'm also open to women if the right one comes along, but it's not something I ever find myself looking for or wanting.

I love women, but not as a man. I love men, but also not as a man. I don't know if one or the other will eventually disappear, but when it comes to men, I've had many a would be gay experience, but it didn't feel right and he even said so himself. They way I want a man sensually is how a woman would want him. For some reason besides that I wouldn't mind a woman in a sensual way either.

Quote from: Sybil on February 28, 2013, 12:27:59 AM
Edit to avoid post clutter:
I feel much more like I'm defending than attacking, but I would definitely rather be doing neither. I think attacking an opinion is fine (that's the nature of debate), but not a person.

You specifically belittled anyone who disagreed with your viewpoint on this topic. That's not good debating, it's rude and condescending; so don't give the defending garbage when you initiated an attack on people for their views. I already said that I don't necessarily support either view, but I find it unacceptable to attack someone because of a view point they believe in which DOES have some merit and backing.

Quote from: EmmaS on February 28, 2013, 12:28:40 AM
I haven't attacked anyone; all I did was defend what I have been saying while someone else has been insulting me for no reason at all. I do think Sybil isn't a very nice person; it's nothing against them, but they were rude and not civil. I have nothing else to say to someone who is only good at condescending others.

I cannot believe you would say that after you attacked and mistreated me so openly. I literally never insulted you, I only attacked an opinion (in defense of all of us, no less) and then defended myself with a droplet of sarcasm that pales to your very aggressive version.

I don't even ultimately mind that you treated me that way, but that you brazenly can't assume responsibility for it .. I just literally don't know how to feel. That's an internet first for me. If you actually click on my name and read my posts -- or even tried to get to know me -- you would likely see I'm a very caring, fairly positive, and rational person (with a self-targeted lapse in humanity here and there).

Quote from: Mellysia on February 28, 2013, 12:38:52 AM
I love women, but not as a man. I love men, but also not as a man. I don't know if one or the other will eventually disappear, but when it comes to men, I've had many a would be gay experience, but it didn't feel right and he even said so himself. They way I want a man sensually is how a woman would want him. For some reason besides that I wouldn't mind a woman in a sensual way either.

I understand how you feel. I'm like that, too. I absolutely cannot enroll myself in a sexual situation on the terms of being male, it feels really uncomfortable for me.

Quote from: EmmaS on February 28, 2013, 12:44:18 AM
You specifically belittled anyone who disagreed with your viewpoint on this topic. That's not good debating, it's rude and condescending; so don't give the defending garbage when you initiated an attack on people for their views. I already said that I don't necessarily support either view, but I find it unacceptable to attack someone because of a view point they believe in which DOES have some merit and backing.

No, I didn't. The absolute closest thing I said to belittling anyone was that I was ashamed of our species for clinging to hurtful beliefs when there was very strong evidence pointing to the contrary. It wasn't about disagreeing with me, it was about believing (again, not admitting that it was a possibility) in something hurtful as opposed to adopting the innocent until proven guilty stance.

If you skimmed or misread my context and then got fired up, that's fine, but I am definitely not guilty of what you're accusing me of. To claim otherwise is really stretching it. There are also tons of hurtful beliefs out there that have merit and backing; that doesn't exonerate anything. I feel like a broken record at this point: I don't take issue with the possibility (which is all it needs to be on terms of "merit and backing"), I take issue with the belief because the only purpose is to hurt us. You have no reason to attack me given that context. This is quickly becoming tiresome.

Quote from: Sybil on February 28, 2013, 12:54:34 AM
If you actually click on my name and read my posts -- or even tried to get to know me -- you would likely see I'm a very caring, fairly positive, and rational person (with a self-targeted lapse in humanity here and there).

I have no interest in getting to know you, but I have enjoyed getting to know a lot of people on here who are friendly.

Ok this is getting a little out of hand. Locked for a bit.

'Rooster' is a euphemism I made up for... think about it.  :laugh: