Susan's Place Transgender Resources

So I was wondering what the ratio of everyone's index to ring fingers is? Is your index finger larger than the ring, equal or smaller. I'm sure some of you have heard this and the science behind it. My index is slightly smaller. Just outline your hand on a piece of paper and then measure those two fingers. I promise it is not a trick and may or may not have something to do with our situation. It's still in hypothesis stage though.

My index finger is shorter as well.

Bostonians can't take this test, all we have is middle fingers! Hugs, Devlyn

You have to be sure to measure from the midline of the bottom crease where your finger joins your hand, to the tip.  Divide the index finger length by the ring finger length.

Mine fell right exactly on what they had as the mean for MTFs.

Well, there ya go. Scientific proof!

This is the first I've heard of it. What are these ratios you speak of?

Quote from: Shodan on March 11, 2013, 06:54:48 PM
This is the first I've heard of it. What are these ratios you speak of?

It has to do with the amount of Estrogen, or Testosterone, that an embryo is exposed to - it effects the length of the index (?) finger, I believe.

Think that summarizes it correctly.

Mine are equal

What does that mean?

Hunh. Gonna have to get a ruler.

So. After printing out a paper ruler and some careful measuring, I end up getting a ratio of 0.963, which according to Wikipedia is right about average for women.  I'm guessing that's pretty standard for Trans Women?

"Comparison between right-handed individuals revealed that the right-hand 2D:4D in MFT is higher than in control males but similar to that observed in control females."

It looks to me like the mean for control males is 0.955 and MTF (and control females) is 0.970

N was about 60 for each group, which include FTMs.

Schneider HJ, Pickel J, Stalla GK (February 2006). "Typical female 2nd-4th finger length (2D:4D) ratios in male-to-female transsexuals-possible implications for prenatal androgen exposure". Psychoneuroendocrinology 31 (2): 265–9. doi:10.1016/j.psyneuen.2005.07.005. PMID 16140461.

Quote from: Orihime on March 11, 2013, 07:13:40 PM
"Comparison between right-handed individuals revealed that the right-hand 2D:4D in MFT is higher than in control males but similar to that observed in control females."

It looks to me like the mean for control males is 0.955 and MTF (and control females) is 0.970

N was about 60 for each group, which include FTMs.

Schneider HJ, Pickel J, Stalla GK (February 2006). "Typical female 2nd-4th finger length (2D:4D) ratios in male-to-female transsexuals-possible implications for prenatal androgen exposure". Psychoneuroendocrinology 31 (2): 265–9. doi:10.1016/j.psyneuen.2005.07.005. PMID 16140461.

English?

I have longer ring fingers, as does my slightly broader female cisfriend, and my mom on one hand. The one's on my left hand are closer though.

Quote from: MaidofOrleans on March 11, 2013, 07:23:35 PM
English?

Basically, women and Trans Women have ring and index fingers that are closer in length than men do.

Oh ok thanks for clarifying  ;)

I'm assuming one measures on the inside of the hand... 'cause my outside crease goes down half an inch further on the ring side. And that gives me an average in the 0.88 range.

Science sez: 2 15/16" Index, 3" Ring. Ratio 0.979. So there's that. :D

Seems like every time I turn around I find another confirmation: "Yes, you were bathed in estrogen in the womb. Yes, you are transgender. No, you're not crazy."  Is it similar for all of you?

Yeah it's not an exact science but on the whole men tend to have longer index fingers that is thought to be an evolutionary desirable trait for throwing things like spears to kill food and women have smaller ring index fingers thought to be an engineered trait made by Debeers to make engagement rings prettier. JK lol Basically men have longer index fingers compared to ring fingers and women the opposite, smaller index fingers. There is thought to be some relation to MTFs. It's not a science though so if this doesn't apply please don't make it like you are not trans or whatever. The on interesting thing is gay men tend to have the longest index fingers of all test subjects in the studies that have taken place. It all has to due with exposure to T in the womb.

cis-men have shorter index fingers than ring fingers. Women have them about equal. Turns out there are a lot of things they are trying to correlate. But as Joanna says just because it doesn't apply to you doesn't mean you are not trans, or that you have/don't have the myriad of other things associated with the ratio. It's just a correlation.

Here's more on the subject, it comes around frequently.

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,125427.msg1030218.html#msg1030218 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,125427.msg1030218.html#msg1030218)
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,32265.msg319059.html#msg319059 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,32265.msg319059.html#msg319059)
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,71233.msg486210.html#msg486210 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,71233.msg486210.html#msg486210)
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,76552.msg525773.html#msg525773 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,76552.msg525773.html#msg525773)
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,118150.msg908745.html#msg908745 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,118150.msg908745.html#msg908745)
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,32126.msg227909.html#msg227909 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,32126.msg227909.html#msg227909)

Quote from: MaidofOrleans on March 11, 2013, 06:58:45 PM
Mine are equal

What does that mean?

Mine also. At least the middle finger is outstanding  ;D

Theoretically, if I remember well, equal fingers, or a slightly longer index finger, are normally found in females.

A longer ring finger is normally found in females.

I didn't read all that much about this and it was a long time ago, but I think there's some point in foetal development where rates of sex hormone exposure have an influence on the length of those fingers. I don't think they mentionned transsexuals, but I think they were disappointed because they didn't really find female lengths in gay men or male lengths in lesbian women, shattering another hope of an explanation of homosexuality.

My index was 68 mm and ring 65, so 1.04. If I measured correctly. I went down to the crease on each finger. Most women have bigger hands then me and wrists as well. I guess there was a reason for being picked last in gym without fail.

2 7/8" index (both hands)

3 1/8" ring (both hands)

I/R = 0.92

Quote from: Orihime on March 11, 2013, 07:13:40 PM
"Comparison between right-handed individuals revealed that the right-hand 2D:4D in MFT is higher than in control males but similar to that observed in control females."

It looks to me like the mean for control males is 0.955 and MTF (and control females) is 0.970

N was about 60 for each group, which include FTMs.

Schneider HJ, Pickel J, Stalla GK (February 2006). "Typical female 2nd-4th finger length (2D:4D) ratios in male-to-female transsexuals-possible implications for prenatal androgen exposure". Psychoneuroendocrinology 31 (2): 265–9. doi:10.1016/j.psyneuen.2005.07.005. PMID 16140461.

Jeez...talk about splitting hairs! I thought the use of measurements to determine anything went out in the 1930's, you know...skull size = brain size = smarts.

Gotta link to the Wiki?

Quote from: Beth Andrea on March 11, 2013, 09:24:18 PM
2 7/8" index (both hands)

3 1/8" ring (both hands)

I/R = 0.92

Jeez...talk about splitting hairs! I thought the use of measurements to determine anything went out in the 1930's, you know...skull size = brain size = smarts.

Gotta link to the Wiki?

Here's the link and it has almost a 100 citations: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digit_ratio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digit_ratio)

I'm not sure how much it matters it's just a correlation  that as a whole women have longer index fingers and this occurs at birth from day one and never changes. That's why it's considered a valid measurement: immutability. Some dispute it's worth and it would be a shame if things like this started to be used to weed out some trans women and creat a class of small handed trans women. Though I won't lie there is a huge part of me thI don't see that happeningat wants to be considered that wants to be considered part of an elite class of beautiful, small handed women.  If you replace beautiful women with ugly then maybe it could happen lol I accept it. That's what my ex used to say. You're going to an ugly woman. Don't do it.

Thanks for the link. I asked for it because several of the posts in this thread seemed to have contradictory instructions or information, so wanted to read it for myself.

For example, the mean and SD are not the same as mentioned earlier:

QuoteFrom a study of 136 males and 137 females:[13]

    Males: mean 0.947, standard deviation 0.029.
    Females: mean 0.965, standard deviation 0.026.

Assuming a normal distribution, the 10th and 90th percentiles for males are 0.910 and 0.984. For females: 0.932 and 0.998.

Mine are the same length to the mm

My Index Finger: 79 mm
My Ring Finger: 78 mm
2D:4D Ratio: 1.013

Honestly, I'm surprised that the average difference between women and men is so low. Because I've actually been randomly looking at people's hands while I'm at work, and it seems like every single man I saw has noticeably longer ring fingers, while every single woman I saw had ring and index fingers that looked exactly like mine, being about the same length. So I'm surprised that the difference in averages is so small.

And yeah, I've heard about this study. Quite interesting. I first found out about it when I was looking up information on the internet back in December about ways to determine if someone really is transgender or not, and there was one question that asked "do you have any physical characteristics that are far too female to be normal?" and the 2D:4D digit ratio was one of the seven that was listed, which eventually led me to the links to all of these studies that have been mentioned in this topic because I was curious about it. And yeah, I was fascinated by my feminine hand ratio, and spent probably the next week straight looking at the hands of every single man and woman at my poker tables. And even in that ENTIRE week of looking, I was still the only genetic male I saw who had a longer index finger than ring finger, out of a good 250 people or so that I observed, with maybe three or four who were close. (12 tables per day, 9 players per table, 3 days a week, with some slight overlap in terms of regulars.) So, yeah, that study really blew my mind when I first learned about it, and observing it in real life was really fun.

Isnt this interesting;
I have very small hands and my finger measurements are:
Left Hand
Index 72mm
Ring finger: 68mm

Right Hand:
Index: 72mm
Ring Finger; 69mm

Same on my feet theu are very small taking a

Size 10 in womens shoes

This al made it impossible for me to play Rugby or anything requiring big hands like Basketball.

0,9394, after you stung my curiosity. So much for my bear's paws. Aw well, t'was expected.

Quote from: Beth Andrea on March 11, 2013, 10:04:05 PM
Thanks for the link. I asked for it because several of the posts in this thread seemed to have contradictory instructions or information, so wanted to read it for myself.

For example, the mean and SD are not the same as mentioned earlier:

Oh I took my numbers from the figures in the German study, not from wikipedia.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on March 11, 2013, 09:44:46 PM
Here's the link and it has almost a 100 citations: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digit_ratio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digit_ratio)

I'm not sure how much it matters it's just a correlation  that as a whole women have longer index fingers and this occurs at birth from day one and never changes. That's why it's considered a valid measurement: immutability. Some dispute it's worth and it would be a shame if things like this started to be used to weed out some trans women and creat a class of small handed trans women. Though I won't lie there is a huge part of me thI don't see that happeningat wants to be considered that wants to be considered part of an elite class of beautiful, small handed women.  If you replace beautiful women with ugly then maybe it could happen lol I accept it. That's what my ex used to say. You're going to an ugly woman. Don't do it.

I don't think it would be any sort of "test" because it is one among many factors that could lead to being trans.  And there are a bunch of other things on the list too.

.

I can't believe this chestnut is still getting around.. :o

I fail most of these 'supposed' tests and I'm still clearly a trans woman..

My fingers on both hands are the same length almost.
Did I get an overdose?
I must have a problem!
Dose this make me a GIRL?

I hope SO!

What makes one a girl is what's between one's ears, not some [bleep] anthropometric test.

Quote from: muuu on March 12, 2013, 02:24:26 AM
Thanks for the info T_T cleared up any confusion I had

I'm not quite sure how you're supposed to measure...
Is it the lowest crease, lower one of the 2 bottom ones, on your ring finger? What about your index finger? Mine only have one lower crease, which is a bit above the part between two fingers... Are you supposed to just measure that crease?
that way both are about 7.1 cm, so a 1.0 ratio.

This means you have a female ratio. Lower ratios are in males. My post had a mistake in it, saying both are in females.

But seriously, those are just statistics. Women have male ratios and aren't any less women, and vice versa. Probably true for us too, eh?

The digit ratio is not some trans test. it doesn't even have to do with that. It's a factor that occurs at birth and the ratio is unchanged throughout life. That's why it is researched. They believe it has to with testosterone exposure in the womb because men have lower digit ratios, though results vary. But in the whole, it doesn't vary much.

Well, it might have something to do with being trans in some way, since a popular hypothesis for explaining our condition is sex hormone levels in the womb as well. But of course, I don't think we can even remotely tell how, if it's the case, and it may even be completely unrelated, too, as each might be related to a different moment of foetus growth.

ok just measured from the crease

index 77mm
ring 75mm

ratio 1.027

from the top they look the same

2D:4D
LH - 69:73 - 0.945
RH - 61:64 - 0.953
(I have an unmatched set, but they tally well.)

 ^-^I discovered in this exercise that using a PDF on a phone in actual size as a ruler was silly. I managed to photocopy my hands at work and used a ruler,

Right index 76mm
Right ring 77mm.

Ratio .987179

Oops... I just realized that I measured wrong. I thought that one of the big lines on my ruler was the "8" when it was really the "7.5" I was wondering about that... because I was like "wait a minute, I have smaller hands than like 90% of the people that I see, so why are my measurements longer than everyone else's?"

Well, that explains it. Silly me...

My real numbers are:
Index Finger: 74 mm
Ring Finger: 73 mm
2D:4D Ratio: 1.014

(not that it matters much... a totally enormous, mind-blowingly huge difference of 0.001%. :P)

Thought I would measure mine properly,

Index Finger 81.5
Ring Finger 81.5
Ratio 1.0

I think I got real big hands, Ring Finger size y and a half :(
It don't help that I'm 6 foot tall and have bear paws for hands >:(

Quote from: Angela??? on March 14, 2013, 01:41:38 AM
Thought I would measure mine properly,

Index Finger 81.5
Ring Finger 81.5
Ratio 1.0

I think I got real big hands, Ring Finger size y and a half :(
It don't help that I'm 6 foot tall and have bear paws for hands >:(

It's ok, plenty of CIS women with bigger hands I'm sure!!

I was positive I had huge piano hands until I met a CIS woman 3" shorter than me with longer fingers. I assure you, it's not a big deal at all.

Hands are hands, some are big some are small. Long fingers are great. They are helpful sometimes too ;)

Quote from: Jennygirl on March 14, 2013, 01:50:18 AM
It's ok, plenty of CIS women with bigger hands I'm sure!!

I was positive I had huge piano hands until I met a CIS woman 3" shorter than me with longer fingers. I assure you, it's not a big deal at all.

Hands are hands, some are big some are small. Long fingers are great. They are helpful sometimes too ;)

More to feel my wife up with that's for sure ;D
Only prob is I have very very strong hands and I think I'm holding her hand losely, but I'm crushing her hand without even trying >:(
This I don't like!
Why oh why did I ever do hand strenghtening when doing weight lifting, stupid me!

Quote from: Albina on March 14, 2013, 01:47:19 AM
@girl you look fierce:

Thank you for the explanation chart - I am happy to know that I tend more to female side. I also know that I have fingers of a musician - play the piano since 6!  ;)

Apparently, we need our fingers ratios to be firmly planted inside the male region to be good musicians, according to the link below. But don't allow that to predict your potential.

http://www.viewzone.com/fingers.html (http://www.viewzone.com/fingers.html)

Here is some new info:

http://news.ufl.edu/2011/09/06/male-female-ring-finger/ (http://news.ufl.edu/2011/09/06/male-female-ring-finger/)


Male-female ring finger proportions tied to sex hormones in embryo; may offer health insights

Filed under Gender, Health, Research on Tuesday, September 6, 2011. GAINESVILLE, Fla. — Biologists at the University of Florida have found a reason why men's ring fingers are generally longer than their index fingers — and why the reverse usually holds true for women.

Writing this week in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, developmental biologists Martin Cohn and Zhengui Zheng of the Howard Hughes Medical Institute and the department of molecular genetics and microbiology at the UF College of Medicine, show that male and female digit proportions are determined by the balance of sex hormones during early embryonic development. Differences in how these hormones activate receptors in males and females affect the growth of specific digits.


The discovery provides a genetic explanation for a raft of studies that link finger proportions with traits ranging from sperm counts, aggression, musical ability, sexual orientation and sports prowess, to health problems such as autism, depression, heart attack and breast cancer.

Cohn and Zheng, also members of the UF Genetics Institute, found that the developing digits of male and female mouse embryos are packed with receptors for sex hormones. By following the prenatal development of the limb buds of mice, which have a digit length ratio similar to humans, the scientists controlled the gene signaling effects of androgen — also known as testosterone — and estrogen.

Essentially, more androgen equated to a proportionally longer fourth digit. More estrogen resulted in a feminized appearance. The study uncovered how these hormonal signals govern the rate at which skeletal precursor cells divide, and showed that different finger bones have different levels of sensitivity to androgen and estrogen.

Left hand equal, right hand 1.027 (76mm/74mm).

Both of my index fingers are barely shorter....

And I wear a women's size 7.5-8.0 shoe.

Both fingers are precisely 8.4 cm. So I have a ratio of 1.0.

Mine are pretty close to the same size, just from looking at them.

I declare this post necro'd bu the power of the Goddess, so mote it be lol

Quote from: Jesslee on March 14, 2013, 04:40:09 PM
Essentially, more androgen equated to a proportionally longer fourth digit. More estrogen resulted in a feminized appearance. The study uncovered how these hormonal signals govern the rate at which skeletal precursor cells divide, and showed that different finger bones have different levels of sensitivity to androgen and estrogen.

Interesting, I think if you fall into the femme ratio you prolly believe it, if not, you don't. I'm not sure what to think, but my ring finger is much longer by just looking. I wouldn't base your transition on it...of course, this is coming from someone who basically transitioned on a whim and a prayer, though I have thought about it my whole life and one day I just did it. First I ordered them (HRT), then went to Mazzoni. I'd prolly be much farther along if I had juts went to mazzoni. It's much less expensive and I was on a very low dose because self-medding is dangerous and so I kept it light. How I changed so much from that dose, I'll never know. Really, I've only been doing this for nine months.

All I can say is holy cow y'all have some loooong fingers, I'm jealous, mine are so stubby like 64mm, I can barely even reach an octave on a piano ;A;

Just so everyone knows, scientifically, only about 45% of trans women have this digit ratio anomaly, so having it doesn't prove your transness any more than not having it disproves it. There are cis-men who have longer index fingers too. The difference is, they'd look at that result and say "that doesn't prove anything. I'm a man!" Where a trans woman would look at that exact same result and say "See! See! This means that I should have been a woman!"

So basically all it's doing is telling you what you already know. ;)

Index 74 mm, ring 68 mm.

By the way index finger is a lot chubbier. Does this count as extra femme lol?

Measuring from the bottom crease both index and ring are 84mm. Yeah, I have big hands...

Mine are the same length, whatever that proves. I am with Sad Panda though, in that I have itty bitty hands. I knew that they were small, same with the feet, but I had no idea how small until reading this and measuring. I am average in hight, 5'10", apparently my hands and feet didn't get the average person memo. 66 mm, wow. I guess that it's a good thing that I never tried to play the piano.

I ignored this for long enough. I got curious and measured, whether  or not it means anything.

Left hand: Index, 72; Ring, 77. Right hand: Index, 71; Ring, 75.

I'll let someone else do the math part.

My index and ring finger are equal  :D

Index finger slightly longer than ring finger!  I have tiny hands as well.  I guess this means I'm a girl!  :P  Oh wait...I have size 13 men's shoes and extremely broad shoulders.  Cant have it all I guess.

As Carrie Liz notes, this is an indicator, not fool proof evidence one way or the other.

In my own case, my male siblings all have pronounced longer ring fingers whereas my index finger is just barely longer than the ring finger, which matched my mother, and matches my sister and daughter.

As for hand size, I thought my hands large and said so, until three cisgender female friends put my hands up against theirs. It turns out my hands are the same size or even a bit smaller than three other cisgender women who are as tall or taller than myself. (Yes, although 5 foot 10 inches in height, I have several cisgender female friends as tall or taller than me. That has helped me let go of my height issues.)