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Atheism, notably the hypothesis that [atheists']  lack of social obligations encourages disbelief in God. The analysis is rooted in the compensator theory of religion, first proposed twenty-five years ago, but it incorporates a recent addition: the distinction between primary and secondary compensation. Social obligations makes secondary compensation important, because it substitutes a compensator for a reward that a person is obligated to provide to another person. The data show that Atheism is indeed more common among people whose social obligations are weak

http://www.religjournal.com/pdf/ijrr01002.pdf (http://www.religjournal.com/pdf/ijrr01002.pdf)

Atheism: a lack of belief in a god or ethereal being.

That's all. I help people, I give back to the community. all of my atheist friends are just as varied as religious people. some are rude and selfish, some are friendly and selfless. some are rude and selfless even. That and this study is done from a religious perspective, that already makes it much more likely to have a bias in a social study. a three way study conducted by atheists, agnostics, and believers would be best.

The biggest problem I have with this is the idea that morality, and the idea of social responsibility has to come form an external source, be it a belief in God, the belief that if you don't do these things you'll go to hell, or whatever. This implies that we, as a species fail at being social animals. That without these things, we'd all turn into little Ayn Rand objectivists and society would crumble as it stands.

So let me ask you this question: Do Wolves, ants, bees, or rabbits believe in God or an afterlife? These are all social animals, some of them having a very complex social structure, and all of which have demonstrated a fundamental grasp of the "greater good." Does that make them better than us because they don't need an external force to constantly reinforce the idea that if you look out for your kin, your society, as a whole, benefits?

Here's another thought to chew on: I contend, that as an Athiest, I have a stronger sense of morality than a Theist. Here's why. I don't believe in an afterlife. I believe that this is it. This is the only life we get. A theist could rationalize murder becuase, while their own soul may be damned, at least their victim could live in eternal peace. An athiest couldn't because to murder would be to condemn somebody to the void. It makes life more valuable because this is the only one we've got.

Okay. Done trollin'  >:-)

I don't think we lack social obligations.  We just don't need a deity to tell us to behave :P

basically, atheists are children that have grown up and don't need their parent to tell them how to behave with consequences looming.

well, actual realized atheists that can be considered sane. I'm not going to speak for it as a social fad.

Atheists don't need a book, a priest or pastor, or a god to tell them how to care for their fellow creatures on the planet.  Atheists know how to care.  This is the social obligations we have as stewards of this planet.

I don't know that the question is dichotomous (though I suppose it begs an equal opposite for a yardstick)...

I didn't read all 26 pages, but since this is highlighted - "The data show that Atheism is indeed more common among people whose social obligations are weak": in other words - "People with weak social obligations are more likely to be atheists"... which is not at all the same as saying that "atheists are more likely to have weak social obligations".

Edit: To quote myself - "People with weak social obligations are more likely to be atheists" - even this is not a true interpretation of the statement, as "more likely" is not in the true spirit of what was said...

Correlation does not equal causation...unless proven through further research...

Smells like...NAARTH...

Kia Ora,

" Do atheists lack social obligations ?" YES, some do & NO, some don't,,,Next question...

"Do theists lack social obligations ?" YES, some do & NO, some don't...Next question...

   
Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Sky-Blue on March 17, 2013, 09:43:29 PM
Correlation does not equal causation...unless proven through further research...

Smells like...NAARTH...

Kia Ora Sky Blue,

NARTH said  ;) ;D

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Sky-Blue on March 17, 2013, 09:43:29 PM
Correlation does not equal causation...unless proven through further research...

Smells like...NAARTH...

NAARTH?

Quote from: tomthom on March 18, 2013, 12:15:57 AM
NAARTH?

Kia Ora Tomthom,

Acronym, Definition. NARTH, National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality.

Metta Zenda :)

ah. the double A threw off my google search. much thanks.

Dubious study.
Languages: English, Spanish, Italian, German.
Questionnaire answered predominantly by people residing in cultures where strong social pressure exists to proclaim a belief in a god.
Pointedly did not offer the questionnaire to people residing in cultures where strong social pressure exists to deny a belief in a god.
So what they are measuring, if anything, is compliance with social expectations, and result is a tautology: individuals who are more compliant with social expectations generally tend to be more compliant with social expectations specifically; individuals who are less compliant with social expectations generally tend to be less compliant with social expectations specifically.

I hypothesize that if the same kind of survey was offered in a culture that has an equivalent pressure for atheism, the results would have flipped from what this study purports to "show".

I have an East Asian studies background, by the way.

Quote from: tomthom on March 17, 2013, 08:45:26 PM
well, actual realized atheists that can be considered sane. I'm not going to speak for it as a social fad.

I call those people anti-theists, they seem to negatively believe in God rather than disbelieve.

As to the question, I'd imagine in cultures which were highly religious in nature then it could be fair to say that atheists do lack social obligations as many of those obligations would be religious in nature.

I think it's also interesting to note the lack of big atheist gatherings or organisations and the profusion in religious ones. Believers do have a tendency to band together and organise themselves in a way that atheists don't, which would imply they feel a greater social obligation with each other.

Finally, I feel that religion is 90% social and 6% spiritual (and 4% other stuff). I think that to deny God and religion is to deny big chunks of social life and thinking, meaning that I reckon it's quite likely atheists lack social obligations because they turn away from the society of church as well as the beliefs of it.

To counter your points, a completely atheistic society that converted a missionary to atheism. try and go through the whole thing. not only is it interesting, but enlightening to the fact that they seem much much better off than the rest of the religious world.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXegoZrxcVk&NR=1&feature=endscreen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXegoZrxcVk&NR=1&feature=endscreen)

I don't think I'm missing much. rock concerts are way better social events.

Quote from: peky on March 17, 2013, 08:17:20 PM
Atheism, notably the hypothesis that [atheists']  lack of social obligations encourages disbelief in God. The analysis is rooted in the compensator theory of religion, first proposed twenty-five years ago, but it incorporates a recent addition: the distinction between primary and secondary compensation. Social obligations makes secondary compensation important, because it substitutes a compensator for a reward that a person is obligated to provide to another person. The data show that Atheism is indeed more common among people whose social obligations are weak

http://www.religjournal.com/pdf/ijrr01002.pdf (http://www.religjournal.com/pdf/ijrr01002.pdf)

Perhaps this^^^would explain the higher suicide rate of atheists. A WHO study showed that Atheist suicide rate is double of that of the Buddhists and trice of that of the Christians. The fact that more Buddhists than Christians commit suicide may be explained in terms that a fraction of Buddhists are indeed Atheists, or a subtle failure of Buddhism.

A global perspective on the epidemiology of suicide. Bertolote, J.M., & Fleishmann, A.
Suicidologi, 2002, Arg. 7, nr 2

one, that's in 2002. things have changed plenty has changed in the rational thought movement since then. we're becoming a far more tolerated minority/a growing majority in many places.

two, you want to know why an atheist friend of mine attempted (and why many attempt and succeed?)? Christians trying to (physically and mentally) bully her into religion. So yeah, Christian "social obligaton" to spread the word of Christ almost killed my dear friend. That might be a reason so many of us learn to hate ourselves so young. I'm lucky. I knew who was wrong. So many others aren't so fortunate.

Churches are amazing support communities. They help connect members with their communities and with other people. There are committees, community projects, socials, even singles groups there.

It is hard for atheists to find similar institutions.

Might explain increased alienation or even suicide among atheists.

Quote from: suzifrommd on March 18, 2013, 10:08:12 AM
It is hard for atheists to find similar institutions.

Not really. We just don't have a one-stop shop for it, that's all.

Quote from: peky on March 18, 2013, 06:34:29 AM

Quote from: peky on March 17, 2013, 08:17:20 PM
Atheism, notably the hypothesis that [atheists']  lack of social obligations encourages disbelief in God. The analysis is rooted in the compensator theory of religion, first proposed twenty-five years ago, but it incorporates a recent addition: the distinction between primary and secondary compensation. Social obligations makes secondary compensation important, because it substitutes a compensator for a reward that a person is obligated to provide to another person. The data show that Atheism is indeed more common among people whose social obligations are weak

http://www.religjournal.com/pdf/ijrr01002.pdf (http://www.religjournal.com/pdf/ijrr01002.pdf)

Perhaps this^^^would explain the higher suicide rate of atheists. A WHO study showed that Atheist suicide rate is double of that of the Buddhists and trice of that of the Christians. The fact that more Buddhists than Christians commit suicide may be explained in terms that a fraction of Buddhists are indeed Atheists, or a subtle failure of Buddhism.

A global perspective on the epidemiology of suicide. Bertolote, J.M., & Fleishmann, A.
Suicidologi, 2002, Arg. 7, nr 2

If true, I bet it has something to do with the suicide stigma among believers than nonbelievers. It's very taboo for the most part among Christians and many even believe suicide is an ultimate sin they'd be damned forever for. Suicide is scarier if you suspect you're in for additional suffering afterward (which is kind of the whole point of suicide, isn't it? To escape suffering). Athiests wouldn't have anything to fear since they don't believe there can be any suffering afterward.

 "If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." Albert Einstein.


Atheists don't believe in gods, so they do good because they want to and not because they have to like most religious people. Obviously not all. People are people, some do good, some do bad. Atheist dont justify their good deeds or bad deeds by invoking a god or religion and morality is not from religion.