Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Kia Ora,

Peky brought up an interesting point in another thread about suicide and how [so it would seem] theists are because of their beliefs in a god, an afterlife and their religious 'community' network support, less likely to attempt suicide, than atheists who have no such beliefs nor support from a 'community' support network as such ...

Now what's interesting is, as we all know the monotheistic organised religions are not what one could call LGBTQI friendly, so do the findings in the research that was presented also apply to LGBTQI people ? 

Now some may not feel comfortable with commenting on this thread, but it would be most appreciated if they could do the above poll attached... Their selection is 'anonymous' but please be as honest as you can with your selection ...


It would be interesting to see how things stand amongst members here a Susan's...

Remember this thread is not about 'belief' bashing !...Suicide isn't something to be taken lightly, it has had a major impact upon the lives of trans-people and their families...

I'll run the poll for 30 days...

Metta Zenda :)

Well, I've got a question before voting. Do I vote how I feel now or should this choice maybe read "I am a theist/agnostic/atheist/etc and have never thought about suicide' instead of 'and I have no desire for suicide'.

As a non-believer I always felt that death was final, nothing after it.  That was a comfort to me, it meant upon death all of my pain would end, death was a "safety valve" for me.

As a Believer, death holds a different meaning to me, just as safe, but for totally different reasons.

I believe you're going to have to pry my cold, dead, butt off this planet, I love life!

Not religious. I've thought about it but not seriously. Life is worth living.

Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on March 19, 2013, 02:45:56 PM
Well, I've got a question before voting. Do I vote how I feel now or should this choice maybe read "I am a theist/agnostic/atheist/etc and have never thought about suicide' instead of 'and I have no desire for suicide'.

Kia Ora NSFA,

I've changed the wording to 'never  thought about committing suicide' ...Plus added a few extra selections for those who might have been suicidal prior to their transition but no longer feel this way...

Metta Zenda :)

I believe in God, and have come very close to taking my own life. And I say close because I hit rock bottom and had a plan thought out. I have not attempted it thanks to a hotline and a very good friend.
Now since starting my transition I have not had a thought of ending my life.

Don't believe in God and attempted suicide twice, and have constantly struggled with suicidal thoughts. Strangely, coming out of the closet has relieved some of that, so life doesn't seem quite so hopeless as it once did.

I have to admit, though, that I feel that this question is very, very leading. I understand that there's good discussion to be had but, ultimately, I'm wary that there's an ulterior motive there to prove that those with spiritual beliefs are 'better' because their beliefs and community frown on suicide.

Quote from: Shodan on March 19, 2013, 03:41:44 PM
Don't believe in God and attempted suicide twice, and have constantly struggled with suicidal thoughts. Strangely, coming out of the closet has relieved some of that, so life doesn't seem quite so hopeless as it once did.

I have to admit, though, that I feel that this question is very, very leading. I understand that there's good discussion to be had but, ultimately, I'm wary that there's an ulterior motive there to prove that those with spiritual beliefs are 'better' because their beliefs and community frown on suicide.

Kia Ora Shodan,

I can assure you this is not the intention of the poll/thread...This has nothing to do with which 'belief' is 'better' to hold... It's just to see whether or not the research provided by Peky also holds true for the religious 'theist' trans-people ...

Personally I think, those who hold a belief in a god and or an afterlife of some kind-Are [because of what I had mentioned in the first post] more at risk of contemplating,and or attempting suicide...Whereas atheists on the other hand have no 'religious' pressures/beliefs forcing them to 'conform' ...

Some atheists face social/family pressures to conform, but theists not only have social and family pressures to contend with they also have the gauntlet of their religious community[often close knit religious  community] and their personal conditioned beliefs which are reinforced by their families etc...


Besides if this turns out to be true ie, theists trans-people 'are' less likely to think about or attempt suicide, I don't think atheists will be converting to theistism just to and try stop suicidal thoughts from occurring...

However thanks for your response...
Metta Zenda :)

What?  That doesn't make any sense at all.

Well, as an atheist, I know there's no afterlife. After death there is nothing. My consciousness is all I have and have only one shot at it. Suicide would be infinite oblivion. That's why my life is so precious and why I need to make the best of it. Conversely, I also believe my consciousness is just an illusion, so nothing matters anyway!

That's fair enough, Kuan Yin. I just get real skittish around discussions like this because, in my experience, it really is a leading question with ulterior motives behind it. I respect people's right to follow their religion of choice, and I'm certainly not going to tell them that they're wrong, as long as they afford me the same courtesy. Some do, some don't, just like some atheists  are like me and are live and let live, and others think you're a brainwashed lunatic for following a religion and try to 'unindoctrinate' you. :P

But for Sarah Louise, I think what Kuan Yin is saying, is that people who are part of religious communities feel more pressure to conform to those communities than those that don't, and was implying that most of these communities aren't always that accepting of who we are, which could drive somebody to suicide because of the pressure of trying to be somebody you're not.

Thank you Shodan

Kia Ora Sarah,

I have just removed a post and replacing it with this one...

When I have used the term 'aferlife' it is meant to imply either heaven or hell a place where a believer could possibly end up, depending upon whether or not their have followed their god's rules...

I hope this makes more sense...

* I now see Shodan, has explained what I was getting at...Thanks *

Metta Zenda :) 

No Kuan Yin, its your arguement that makes no sense and changing a word doesn't change what you said.

I don't agree with your conclusion.

I am an atheist and I have thought about suicide, I wrote a whole novel about suicide. I have only once thought about doing it mind you.

Hell, I should add that I still think about suicide, on almost a daily basis, but I'm far from the point to where I'll try anything, if that makes any sense. I think the difference, now, is that instead of dwelling on these thoughts like I used to do, I just get frustrated with myself for thinking them. Progress?

Quote from: Sarah Louise on March 19, 2013, 06:05:11 PM
No Kuan Yin, its your arguement that makes no sense and changing a word doesn't change what you said.

I don't agree with your conclusion.

Kia Ora Sarah,

Is it this part that you disagree with :" Besides if this turns out to be true ie, theists trans-people 'are' less likely to think about or attempt suicide, I don't think atheists will be converting to theistism just to and try stop suicidal thoughts from occurring !"...

If this is the case then I'll explain...The way I see things is if a person calls themselves an atheist[not an agnostic] then they have made their mind up = they don't believe in gods...

However if they  'miraculously' converts to theistism, I'm inclined to believe they were more so an agnostic who has been sitting on the fence waiting...   


Metta Zenda :)

I don't agree with your Entire statement.

Quote from: Sarah Louise on March 19, 2013, 06:33:40 PM
I don't agree with your Entire statement.

Kia Ora Sarah,

I can only say, you have every right to disagree...Even though I'm not quite sure what it is you disagree with...

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Shodan on March 19, 2013, 06:15:26 PM
Hell, I should add that I still think about suicide, on almost a daily basis, but I'm far from the point to where I'll try anything, if that makes any sense. I think the difference, now, is that instead of dwelling on these thoughts like I used to do, I just get frustrated with myself for thinking them. Progress?

Kia Ora Shodan,

That's definitely progress...just keep it up until the thoughts become like passing clouds...

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Pica Pica on March 19, 2013, 06:07:03 PM
I am an atheist and I have thought about suicide, I wrote a whole novel about suicide. I have only once thought about doing it mind you.

Kia Ora Pica,

That's good news

In a past life, not only had I thought about it, I had made a couple of attempts where I ended up in hospital having my stomach pumped-quick thinking by caring friends and ex...

But as the song goes "But now, now I'm 'together better than ever yeah yeah yeah !" [I can't remember which song-I think it begins with "I used to be a skinhead"]

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on March 19, 2013, 03:11:02 PM
Not religious. I've thought about it but not seriously. Life is worth living.

Kia Ora,

True, regardless of ones beliefs religious or otherwise "Life is worth living !"

Metta Zenda :)

I only had one period in my life where I could be considered truly suicidal. Incidentally, it was when I did believe in God that I wanted to kill myself. Because there was a promise of something after. Death wouldn't have been the end, only the end of the pain of this world.

Now I'm an atheist and honestly, I'd never kill myself unless something truly horrific was happening - like I'm talking in a war-time or crisis situation where I was being tortured with no hope for escape type of thing. Because to me, that's the end. The end of the pain, yes, but also the end of consciousness, the end of so many things I've come to enjoy about the world.

Quote from: Pica Pica on March 19, 2013, 06:07:03 PM
I am an atheist and I have thought about suicide, I wrote a whole novel about suicide. I have only once thought about doing it mind you.

Kia Ora Pica,

Did you publish it ?

Metta Zenda :)

I am an atheist, and I believe this is my only chance to feel happiness, fulfill myself, and enjoy the company of others. I think about suicide during my low moods, but only then. Im the kind of person who has high highs and low lows emotionally. I feel things very strongly. So when I get sad, Im practically in despair sometimes. When I get like that I think about suicide as an, albeit perverted, comfort. When I think about dying I think about how people will miss me. Then it makes me feel loved and my value as a person is validated. Soon after I stop being in a funk and get on with my business.

Terrible but true. I've never been truly in despair though. Not enough to actually plan or attempt suicide. It's just a fantasy I play to soothe myself. I really aught to stop, but when Im sad all I want to do is anything to feel better so I think these things cause it helps.

Would never do it though. I'll be damned if I dont live my life to the fullest before I go. One time I had an incident that I thought I was having a stroke and might die. I was enraged and terrified. There's too much to do before I go!

Quote from: ChrisJ on March 19, 2013, 11:05:53 PM
I am an atheist, and I believe this is my only chance to feel happiness, fulfill myself, and enjoy the company of others. I think about suicide during my low moods, but only then. Im the kind of person who has high highs and low lows emotionally. I feel things very strongly. So when I get sad, Im practically in despair sometimes. When I get like that I think about suicide as an, albeit perverted, comfort. When I think about dying I think about how people will miss me. Then it makes me feel loved and my value as a person is validated. Soon after I stop being in a funk and get on with my business.

Terrible but true. I've never been truly in despair though. Not enough to actually plan or attempt suicide. It's just a fantasy I play to soothe myself. I really aught to stop, but when Im sad all I want to do is anything to feel better so I think these things cause it helps.

Would never do it though. I'll be damned if I dont live my life to the fullest before I go. One time I had an incident that I thought I was having a stroke and might die. I was enraged and terrified. There's too much to do before I go!

Kia Ora ChrisJ,

Glad to hear you are not really contemplating suicide, but a different kind of fantasy that works the same would be better though...

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Kuan Yin on March 19, 2013, 10:06:43 PM
Kia Ora Pica,

Did you publish it ?

Metta Zenda :)

Trying to find an agent, which has not been much fun so far.

Quote from: Pica Pica on March 20, 2013, 01:44:29 AM
Trying to find an agent, which has not been much fun so far.

Kia Ora Pica,

Good luck...It's important to get the message out there, get people talking about it...

Metta Zenda :)

never seriously contemplated it. Atheist.

I still stand by my theory that suicide rates are higher among atheists due to religion itself (due to personal thoughts on people trying to shove it down my throat and due to my dear friend almost downing a bottle of bleach because of religious bullies.)

I considered suicide when my partner died. I'm agnostic, though at the time I was still sort of clinging to Christianity. I wanted to believe, but just couldn't.
That's the only time I ever really thought about it. Probably because it was the most pain I've ever been in. Even then though, I wasn't serious. I don't think I have it in me.

In my limited experience suicidal thoughts are not uncommon in people who have stress in a way they cannot understand or deal with that stress.

Suicidal thoughts are normal.

There is nothing odd or wrong about them. 'I wish thoughts' are common, and suicidal thought falls into that.


Most suicidal people I deal with have an extra trigger to their stress and then an emotional modulator than blocks the survival instinct.

Counselling trys to reactivate survival and decrease the emotional modulator.

WTF does that mean?  'get them to sober up and let them find a future wish'.

Them? Me as well I've been there.

Does religion affect people? No, not so much in belief but in community. The more people are around to help, the less likely you are going to reach an end stage.

However if your stress is caused by the religion, then the community 'help' can be very negative and that maybe reflected in the suicide levels in members of such communities.

I'm not sure if I contribute to this thread.

C

Quote from: Kuan Yin on March 19, 2013, 11:16:19 PM
Kia Ora ChrisJ,

Glad to hear you are not really contemplating suicide, but a different kind of fantasy that works the same would be better though...

Metta Zenda :)

No doubt. Just something I need to work on.

I don't know what to say about suicide, just that I can't judge someone thinking about it to end their suffering or those that have done it for whatever reasons. I will definately try to persuade someone from that decision if I can and I personally think there are other possiblities besides suicide. But in the end I can't really judge.

I was, at one point (and perhaps still am), influenced a bit by the argument - or supposition - that Life has no real meaning, so why not bail?

[By "influenced", I don't mean that I felt encouraged to commit suicide... I usually enjoy life quite a bit; but the argument makes sense.]

If there is no meaning to existence, and nothing to fear from ending that existence... then it seems irrational to submit to the slightest pain, or discomfort, that comes with living.

We often hear the argument against suicide couched in terms of how it would hurt those we left behind... but that flies directly in the face of another popular argument which states that it is our Life, and we have to be true to ourselves (Yes... I note the irony, but the principle is similar enough...).

I dunno... My mother committed suicide when I was a kid and, though I wish she were still around, I have no evidence that she did the wrong thing.

I am (agnostic) theist, and I did contemplate suicide.

I can't speak for anyone but myself, and I can say with conviction that my belief in God definitely did save me from doing anything more drastic.

Quote from: Sita on March 21, 2013, 04:15:50 PM
I am (agnostic) theist, and I did contemplate suicide.

I can't speak for anyone but myself, and I can say with conviction that my belief in God definitely did save me from doing anything more drastic.

Kia Ora Sita,

That's great news, that your faith in a deity had helped you in your time of need...

Metta Zenda :)

Kia Ora,

Because of the small amount who participated in the poll, it does not really provide a clear picture...

Four out of twenty admitted to attempting suicide =2 theists + 2 atheists, however 5 atheists had thought about suicide as oppose to 3 theists...

A thank you to those who took part in the poll and your comments...

Metta Zenda :)