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None that I know of. The follicles are too small to insert a needle in to. And I don't think there is a needle fine enough to fit in one anyway.

I have lots of invisible vellus hair on my face. It's visible when there's back-lighting. I can't see how they could do electro on those. I mean there must be thousands. You'll end up damaging your skin instead. I wax or thread when I feel the need. HRT for 19 years hasn't made them go away.

I would look into waxing but most people don't notice them like you do.

Yes, the kind of hair you are talking about is definitely treatable with electrolysis. You need an electrologist with a) a microscope, b) slender needles, and c) the talent to distinguish between peach fuzz and the longer ones. Very few electrologists are much good at their jobs in my experience. It can take some effort to track down someone competent. I'd also definitely go with thermolysis. Blend is just slow and overkill for those kind.

My facial hair never fully developed, so a lot of what I had were those midway hairs. They aren't really visible, but the texture is much coarser than real peach fuzz and they drove me crazy. So I've slowly had them all murdered. I'm down to about 30min of electro a month now, and I can run my hand over my face without wanting to puke, so yay!

I agree.   They are definitely treatable if you have a good electrologist, especially one who is experienced in the trans world.  That is pretty much what I am down to as well.  Mine goes on a wild hunt for them each time I go.  The only real way to tell the difference is with experienced fingertips.  Contrary to what you might think, it is not necessarily helpful for them to be longer either.  I find that 2-3 days of growth makes the ones that need to be killed prickly feeling. 

Best wishes!

Maybe we're getting mixed up with extremely fine peach fuzz and terminal hair? My face, forehead, ears, everything is covered in this fine fluff, but so is the rest of the human body, on everyone. From what I gather, this fine fluff is normal on all women. How would you do electrolysis on that? I measured the diameter of one of the strands from my face: 0.013mm. And then one from my head, I have very fine head hair: 0.050mm. That needle is going to have to be invisible and made from very strong material.

I think they mean a sort of intermediate: not quite a big terminal hair, but not fine vellus. To begin with, vellus just doesn't grow long.

I think the posters in this thread are talking about different things. Vellus hairs you cant feel. So if you can feel the hair, it's not a vellus hair. If you drag a cotton swab are your skin, and it snags, it's not a vellus hair. Cis-females have vellus hair all over their bodies, just not on their face. Vellus hair for the most part can not be seen or felt, except under the right light and at the right angle.

Vellus hairs are a type of human hair that are fine, short, light-colored or transluscent, and non-pigmented that develop from childhood and are found on most areas of the body. Their growth is not, in contrast to terminal hairs, affected or dictated by hormones. They also lack a sebaceous gland.

Terminal hairs are thicker, sometimes darker (but can be blond, gray, clear), have an attached sebaceous gland and respond to hormones.

If what you are talking about are true vellus hairs, good luck. They are impossible to remove via electorlysis IMHO. There's not a needle made slim enough. Currently, the smallest gauge of electro needle made is F2 at .002 inches or .055 mm in diameter, and even that is too thick to fit inside a vellus hair follicle. Vellus hair follicles are measure in microns... units much smaller than millimeters. Simple physics. Electron microscope and some new ultra-tiny needles I've never heard of not withstanding.

Quote from: JennX on April 28, 2013, 09:37:25 AM
If what you are talking about are true vellus hairs, good luck. They are impossible to remove via electorlysis IMHO. There's not a needle made slim enough. Currently, the smallest gauge of electro needle made is F2 at .002 mm in diameter, and even that is too thick to fit inside a vellus hair follicle. Vellus hair follicles are measure in microns... units much smaller than millimeters. Simple physics. Electron microscope and some new ultra-tiny needles I've never heard of not withstanding.

JennX, I think you mean 0.002" / 0.0508mm.  0.002mm is 500th of a mm and probably not feasible to use (or even manufacture) without instantly breaking with a breath.  0.0508mm sounds right for a fine terminal hair. One random hair I measured on my face was 13µm/0.013mm and a head hair 50µm. Yes, F2 does seem too large!

Quote from: summerbreeze on April 28, 2013, 10:34:33 AM
JennX ... there is the manufacturer Dectro International offering probes of the brand "Pro-Tech" in F1 and even insulated F1!. Everything is available and not even since yesterday and 10 years ago, I haven't been working with anything on Females else but ONLY with F1...

But what is the diameter of the needle? Unless it is in microns... which is impossible, you can not remove vellus hairs. I prefer F3 needles myself, as they don't get as hot at the tip and work better for blend on male facial hair, which is the method I use.

Quote from: Tesla on April 28, 2013, 01:24:59 PM
JennX, I think you mean 0.002" / 0.0508mm.  0.002mm is 500th of a mm and probably not feasible to use (or even manufacture) without instantly breaking with a breath.  0.0508mm sounds right for a fine terminal hair. One random hair I measured on my face was 13µ/0.013mm and a head hair 50µ. Yes, F2 does seem too large!

Correct. An F2 needle/probe is .002 inches in diameter or .055 mm. I said mm above, when I should have used inches. Thanks for seeing what I'm saying though.. It is impossible to remove a vellus hair with any sort of needle known to man. To say otherwise is... well... I'll let you decide.

If you want to know what vellus hair is, touch your forehead. There's no hair, you say? Go closer. Yes, that peach fuzz. Maybe you can feel it, somewhat, but you certainly won't feel the individual hairs as with terminal hair. There is terminal hair that's really fine, but it's still thicker. Also, vellus hair rarely grows very long, and even if it does, it's still fuzz in which you can't easily distinguish individual hairs. Finally, usually, you can't really pluck vellus hair. If you try, even if you're delicate, they'll most likely break.

Quote from: A on April 29, 2013, 06:32:48 AM
If you want to know what vellus hair is, touch your forehead. There's no hair, you say? Go closer. Yes, that peach fuzz. Maybe you can feel it, somewhat, but you certainly won't feel the individual hairs as with terminal hair. There is terminal hair that's really fine, but it's still thicker. Also, vellus hair rarely grows very long, and even if it does, it's still fuzz in which you can't easily distinguish individual hairs. Finally, usually, you can't really pluck vellus hair. If you try, even if you're delicate, they'll most likely break.

If you pluck near the root you can. I just measured a forehead hair at 0.011mm. Slightly thinner than my facial fluff at 0.013mm. However, my facial fluff is longer than the stuff on my forehead. I should take a photo with my microscope of a comparison between a head hair and vellus hair.

Quote from: girl you look fierce on April 29, 2013, 08:42:49 AM
Okay.... well to put it another way, what are the thinnest hairs an electrologist is gonna be willing to do?

Also I don't know how to measure something that tiny but yeah. I know my neck hair is thicker than vellus hair. But now you guys have filled me in on the specific definition of a vellus hair. lol. I just meant that it's white and you can't see it just looking at me, even up close. So when you do see it in a magnifying mirror it looks like a vellus hair, it just glints a little in the sunlight.

The thinnest hairs their eyes and skill allow them to remove. The big thing you are overlooking here is the human skill factor. Not all electrologists are of the same skill and training level. Furthermore, most electrologists have never removed male facial hair... their clients are cis-females. Nor do many want to learn how. Male facial hair takes more time and skill to remove. Generally you have to use a larger needle and more power, which if done improperly will cause scarring and the hair may also regrow.

I've been thru lots of different electrologists in different cities over the years. Some great and some horrible. Find an electrologist with previous experience removing male facial hair. This is key.

JennX, it doesn't sound like girl you look fierce has stereotypical thick male beard hair to remove. It seems too thin and vellus, more like troublesome female hair.

Quote from: Tesla on April 29, 2013, 10:02:33 AM
JennX, it doesn't sound like girl you look fierce has stereotypical thick male beard hair to remove. It seems too thin and vellus, more like troublesome female hair.

Exactly... which means electro isn't going to work on removing them. Waxing will work best for something like that.

Quote from: girl you look fierce on April 29, 2013, 12:30:28 PM


And actually, I think I have a waxing kit lying around, I could try it... (I was gonna do my legs last summer and ended up just shaving them like usual instead lol)

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,31797.msg221917.html#msg221917 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,31797.msg221917.html#msg221917)

Anytime I hear 'waxing kit'  I shuddar and am reminded of the above.....   

Quote from: Lorri Kat on April 29, 2013, 12:43:43 PM
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,31797.msg221917.html#msg221917 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,31797.msg221917.html#msg221917)

Anytime I hear 'waxing kit'  I shuddar and am reminded of the above.....

Omg... that is horrible, but I couldn't stop laughing....

Quote from: girl you look fierce on April 29, 2013, 12:30:28 PM
What kind of female hair are they used to removing? Like legs or arms and stuff? And yeah I understand about the skill thing. That is why electro kind of scares me. What if they are bad and like, ruin your skin??

Exactly. Damage has to be done to kill the follicle. If you have thousands to do then you may get some damage no matter what. I had the UK's best and renowned electrologist do my upper lip. I had to quit after a few months after I started to notice damage, which she could not detect herself  >:(. The few hairs left eventually thinned out themselves after years of HRT and is now vellus.

Quote
And actually, I think I have a waxing kit lying around, I could try it... (I was gonna do my legs last summer and ended up just shaving them like usual instead lol)

Use as little wax as thinly as possible. Have you tried a hair removing spring (google it)? I just got one and seems quite useful.

Quote from: girl you look fierce on April 29, 2013, 12:30:28 PM
What kind of female hair are they used to removing? Like legs or arms and stuff? And yeah I understand about the skill thing. That is why electro kind of scares me. What if they are bad and like, ruin your skin??

Female facial hair, legs, arms, bikini area. But female hair is much thinner, softer, and easier to kill with electro. You need less power (current + heat) and it takes much less tim per hair to achieve permanent results. For example most women only book 15-30 min. electro session... MTF trans will be the ones booking 60 min or longer sessions. Also if you start going every week, once a week, the electrologist should cut you some sort of discount... as most of their clients are more random and sporadic as to bookings.

If performed incorrectly scarring is the most major issue to worry about. That's why you need to find someone who knows what they are doing. Most techs today want to use a flash-thermolysis machine, with high temps and short times to cover the most area, which if done correctly works... but it relies more on the skill of tech. I overall prefer a blend machine which combines dc current + HF radio waves (galvanic electrolysis + thermolysis) and gives a higher kill rate compared to thermolysis alone. Basically do your home work before just randomly walking in to an electro office and let them start jamming a needle that conducts high heat and electricity in to your face.  :)

Quote from: Tesla on April 29, 2013, 01:22:17 PM
Exactly. Damage has to be done to kill the follicle. If you have thousands to do then you may get some damage no matter what. I had the UK's best and renowned electrologist do my upper lip. I had to quit after a few months after I started to notice damage, which she could not detect herself  >:(. The few hairs left eventually thinned out themselves after years of HRT and is now vellus.

It takes true talent to successfully and properly remove male facial hair. I know. I'd dare say 70% of all electrologists (no matter how long the've been in business, and no matter how many cis-females they've worked on) are not trained, experience, nor educated enough to do it right. When done properly, I have no bleeding, no scabbing, no welts, no bumps, no nothing 15-20 mins. after the session... and I have super sensitive skin. If any of the former are present for more than 24 hrs. find another electro. Technique and skill are everything when it comes to electro.

Quote from: JennX on April 29, 2013, 01:31:25 PM
It takes true talent to successfully and properly remove male facial hair. I know. I'd dare say 70% of all electrologists (no matter how long the've been in business, and no matter how many cis-females they've worked on) are not trained, experience, nor educated enough to do it right. When done properly, I have no bleeding, no scabbing, no welts, no bumps, no nothing 15-20 mins. after the session... and I have super sensitive skin. If any of the former are present for more than 24 hrs. find another electro. Technique and skill are everything when it comes to electro.

Seriously, I had one of the best who still works on trans women. And they still love her! I simply had fine, super sensitive and flawless skin to start with which could not take the hard process.

Quote from: JennX on April 29, 2013, 09:53:21 AM
The thinnest hairs their eyes and skill allow them to remove. The big thing you are overlooking here is the human skill factor. Not all electrologists are of the same skill and training level. Furthermore, most electrologists have never removed male facial hair... their clients are cis-females. Nor do many want to learn how. Male facial hair takes more time and skill to remove. Generally you have to use a larger needle and more power, which if done improperly will cause scarring and the hair may also regrow.

I've been thru lots of different electrologists in different cities over the years. Some great and some horrible. Find an electrologist with previous experience removing male facial hair. This is key.

Yes, and this is important.   I found one recommended by many others in the trans community.  She has been doing electro for over 30 years and is amazing.  She knows the innuendos of how you are affected by hormone levels, etc.  She is like an encyclopedia. She has hour packages designed for the trans community.   And I like the fact that she uses different sized needles on different parts of my face, because even on the same person, not all follicles are created equal.  Using the correct needle size (sort of) reduces the pain.  But mainly it increases effectiveness and minimizes the collateral damage.  All of which means you heal up faster.  I have to hand it to her, she hunts so hard for those small white ones!

Sigh, I wish we had such things as electrologists who are used to trans people here. Trans people usually flee to Montréal before caring about that. Actually, my psychiatrist who pretty much sees every trans in the area raised eyebrows when I mentionned electro to him. Gotta do the lottery and hope that one just so happens to be good at removing male facial hair.

By the way, 1$ a minute. Does that sound like a good fee for electrolysis ? Bad ? Average ?