Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I've wondered about this. I know I try to get seen as male but always seem to fall short. Yesterday I was misgendered while I thought I looked pretty darn good. I haven't shaved or trimmed my facial hair in a long while yet it still happened. I wonder if this is something that's simply unavoidable. Could it be possible that random strangers still think "girl" after years and years on hormones?

People misgendering you when you have facial hair seems odd. You will need to have a very feminine face in order to be called a woman when you have a beard going on. And from Nygeel's pictures, this is deffo not the case.

Did they take a good look at you? Or was it just a quick look and then they moved on? It seems to me they missed the face part, and maybe based on other features (height?) they assumed you were a woman?

I think they took a good look. I am kinda short but that's about it.

Recent full length pic for body shape (http://25.media.tumblr.com/bb245cfa3d357857a34731a53839d206/tumblr_mkr31z6iy81qal7xro1_1280.jpg)
And facial hair (https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/270967_10152327137026002_2023203526_n.jpg)

I have no idea why they misgendered you, i can not see anything female on you. And you look male anyway.

Have they seen you as before?

Judging from the pics, most of the facial hair is underneath your chin, and on the side of your face. If they were looking directly at you, and not too closely, they might have missed it.

Your other features are very non-female-ish, though. How they could have misgendered you is beyond me. Maybe they ain't too bright in da head?

You sure look dude to me but you know how clueless some of us are.  Plus I like rocking the gender boat and helping people think about their stereotypes and silly assumptions.  Thanks for being real!

I'm curious: does the same thing happen when you're wearing sunglasses/shades?

I've noticed that one of the last features to change on T is our eyes. That's one of the reasons why I tend to not open my eyes fully: they look a lot softer and more feminine if I do. Try sunglasses, or developing a glare, and see whether that makes any difference. After all, people spend more time looking at your eyes than any other part of your face, so that's what they'll use to gender you.

I've also found that even wearing obviously male earrings can interfere with my attempts to pass, so I don't wear any ear jewellery at the moment. 

I think a big part of it is also where you live. I live out in the sticks where people "ain't herd of dem there transmexuals". Well, they probably have but don't pick out a transman as easy as they would a transwoman. I never get misgendered out here.

When I go to Washington D.C. or even to the local smaller city people have picked up on it a lot more in the past. Luckily for me in the past 14 years of living full time I've only had a handful of bad experiences. It's usually just an honest mistake on their part. In areas with a large GLBT population it just seems that people pick up on gender ques more often.

Yes, one day I'm sure you won't be misgendered any longer. Heck, I heard your voice clip you put on here awhile back and if someone calls you a female as soon as you speak they should stand corrected. 

Quote from: girl you look fierce on May 04, 2013, 11:15:07 AM
I think it probably takes hormones a very long time to do that on their own but, after a certain point low face fat becomes very masculinizing.

Yeah, heavy men tend to carry their weight lower on their face (under the chin) while heavy women carry it more in the cheeks. Or did you mean having a thinner face in general is masculinizing? That's generally true too.

Nygeel, it just takes time. Honestly, to me it looks like your face hasn't finished masculinizing. And you have some more feminine features like the eyes as pointed out and the lips. As you continue to masculinize, you will stop being misgendered. It just takes some people longer than others. It did for me.
You pass better in the second pic. I think it's your expression in the first pic.

Both the forum picture and the tumblr picture make it clear to me that you have a fem face. The roundness, the tiny, thin eyebrows, it looks like you either have a small mouth or are pursing your lips to create that illusion.

I've got a round face, thin eyebrows, and a tiny mouth. It's incredibly frustrating and I'm hoping that T will at least help my brows to thicken. I fully expect people to misgender me for a while until I can lose almost 100 pounds.

@rexyrex Nope, these are complete strangers.

@Mr.X I don't know...it's just frustrating because this does happen too often for my liking. It depends on how often I go out but it's about once a week.

@FTMDiaries I wear prescription glasses and can't have contacts so I'm not able to wear sunglasses in any situation other than taking a picture. I don't wear any jewlery outside of my plugs...and if I'm wearing french cuffs, cuff links...maybe a collar pin or tie bar.

@Simon Although I don't live in the middle of nowhere, I do live in an area that's fairly conservative. As far as I'm aware (based on my experiences) nobody has any idea of what a trans man is...or maybe a very very small select few people do. I say this because it's really difficult to find people who know anything about 'em.

@Not-so Fat Admin Lips don't really masculinize. I have very full lips that aren't very wide. Some guys just have this feature (trans or cis). I wonder, is expression enough to change it for people? Should I just always look angry? It's just frustrating because at 2.5 years on T it's still a problem.

@randomroads I have a small mouth, and my eyebrows have thickened a bit from T. I still don't have visible arm hair (unless it's in a very specific type of light).

I wear prescription glasses too... ironically, with Transitions lenses (so the lenses are clear when indoors but they darken significantly when I'm outdoors). I get 'sirred' all the time when outdoors but 'ma'amed' all the time when indoors.

Masculine eyes look harder; feminine eyes look softer. You & I both have relatively soft eyes atm.

If you're unable to wear sunglasses, you might want to practise hardening your expression until the T further masculinises your eyes. Give it a shot & see if it makes any difference.

Quote from: Nygeel on May 04, 2013, 01:11:10 PM

@Not-so Fat Admin Lips don't really masculinize. I have very full lips that aren't very wide. Some guys just have this feature (trans or cis). I wonder, is expression enough to change it for people? Should I just always look angry? It's just frustrating because at 2.5 years on T it's still a problem.

Well, the lips won't be so overpowering as the rest continues to change. I wonder if it's a face fat distribution issue. Have you seen much fat redistribution everywhere else?

I know, it sounds awful to always be trying to look angry or like a poser (you know those faces guys pull in pics). I hated those kind of passing tips. I wonder if somehow it could be mannerisms/demeanor which is coming through (in person and in the pic). Even if you had pretty masculine mannerisms for a girl and still do - sometimes there's still vestiges of years of trying to live as female. You know, you could be masculine overall and have one or two small things you're unaware of that make you come off female. I know when I was mostly passing all the time I got misgendered a couple times by older ladies of a certain ethnicity. Not to stereotype or anything, but they were the only ones who ever misgendered me at that point. I think they were picking up on something nobody else could see. What that was, I don't know.  Does it seem to be the same type of people misgendering you (a certain age, race, gender, orientation, etc)? Again, not to stereotype, but I think somehow different groups pick up on different gender cues. 

Overall, I think it's a combination of features getting you misgendered. Like any one on its own - the lips, eyes, cheeks (there are guys with huge cheeks), mannerisms, demeanor, etc. isn't a problem in itself. But taken altogether it adds up.

My fat has redistributed...a lot. I used to have a bit of a butt now I have to use a belt or my jeans will fall right off me. And the fat in my face has changed A LOT.

4 days on T (http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_me1eo4pHke1qal7xro1_500.jpg)
Today (http://25.media.tumblr.com/f2159db75489f83830d99a1acf410418/tumblr_mmaiijltEA1qal7xro1_500.jpg)

I never lived my life as a girl or a woman. I wore "boy clothes" almost exclusively and was a bit of a jerk about what I wore and how I acted since I was maybe 7. I never tried to be a girl, I cried when I was 5 and had to take pictures in a dress. I get misgendered by gay men a lot...beyond that there's not much of a regular pattern.

Quote from: Nygeel on May 04, 2013, 11:29:35 AM
I think they took a good look. I am kinda short but that's about it.

Recent full length pic for body shape (http://25.media.tumblr.com/bb245cfa3d357857a34731a53839d206/tumblr_mkr31z6iy81qal7xro1_1280.jpg)
And facial hair (https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/270967_10152327137026002_2023203526_n.jpg)

Do you always wear the glasses?  For me, that's the one thing that would make me want to use a female pronoun or just confuse the hell out of me.  But without them I don't see any female about you. 

It could be that it's the glasses that are throwing others off.  Otherwise, I'm not certain.  Could it be stance or body posture? 

Quote from: A. G. Bheur on May 04, 2013, 03:24:40 PM
Do you always wear the glasses?  For me, that's the one thing that would make me want to use a female pronoun or just confuse the hell out of me.  But without them I don't see any female about you. 

It could be that it's the glasses that are throwing others off.  Otherwise, I'm not certain.  Could it be stance or body posture?

I can't see without them.

Admittedly, I'm a little confused on that as well. You seem to be quite hairy; even with lowish quality pictures, it's obvious that you've got a lot of facial hair. You'd think that people would stop and think "Oh, women don't generally have beards, so this is probably a dude."

However, I think that your face looks a bit feminine. I imagine it'll fix itself eventually, but it might not. The only thing that I can think to suggest is weight loss; that will definitely help speed up the process.

I mean, the only other things I can think of would be your voice and mannerisms. Since I have no idea what you sound like or how you carry yourself, it's hard to say if those affect it. But I imagine your voice is probably pretty low at this point, if you've been on T for years.

Quote from: Nygeel on May 04, 2013, 03:10:16 PMMy fat has redistributed...a lot. I used to have a bit of a butt now I have to use a belt or my jeans will fall right off me. And the fat in my face has changed A LOT.

4 days on T
Today

Yeah, you definitely look a lot more male in the second pic. Maybe you'll continue to masculinize in the face. Your eyes have changed a lot (not themselves but the way they're set. Mine did this too.)

QuoteI never lived my life as a girl or a woman. I wore "boy clothes" almost exclusively and was a bit of a jerk about what I wore and how I acted since I was maybe 7. I never tried to be a girl, I cried when I was 5 and had to take pictures in a dress. I get misgendered by gay men a lot...beyond that there's not much of a regular pattern.

That's not what I mean. You could be the most masculine guy in the world, more masculine than any cis guy and still have effects from being AFAB and gendered female most your life. It could be something as subtle as the way you look at people when talking to them, body language when dealing with people, how far away you stand from them, the way you walk (possibly from having hips most your life), the way you pronounce certain words, etc, etc. - either biological stuff or stuff you learned subconsciously as people reacted to you growing up. Who knows what it could be, I'm just guessing. Gendering someone happens in a split second and is probably based on a million subconscious little cues that were important back in the day when you had to decide in an a instant if the person approaching was a threat or someone to kidnap.  :laugh:

And now it's subconscious stuff in people's heads as they gender you. It's nothing that's going to clock you if you pass well, but along with other cues it could contribute. Once the cues tip firmly on the male side to people, the little stuff won't matter.

Have you asked any trusted friends around you? Maybe there's some mannerisms or something they can see. There is something in the first pic - but can't put my finger on it or if it's something you can change.

Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on May 04, 2013, 04:21:25 PM

Have you asked any trusted friends around you? Maybe there's some mannerisms or something they can see. There is something in the first pic - but can't put my finger on it or if it's something you can change.

I don't really have many friends. They don't know what gets me misgendered, they've seen me as I identify since I've been out to them for such a long time.

Quote from: Nygeel on May 04, 2013, 04:28:16 PM

Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on May 04, 2013, 04:21:25 PM

Have you asked any trusted friends around you? Maybe there's some mannerisms or something they can see. There is something in the first pic - but can't put my finger on it or if it's something you can change.

I don't really have many friends. They don't know what gets me misgendered, they've seen me as I identify since I've been out to them for such a long time.

Well, don't get discouraged. I know how difficult it can be when you've been on T forever, and still not passing enough. It took me awhile, but one day it changed and I passed everywhere. Hey, if all else fails, is there any baldness in your family? Grow a big bald patch and you'll never be misgendered again.  :laugh:

Maybe it's just me, and it all depends on whether you feel it's worth trading your style for the chance of passing a little more consitently, and of course, it might no make any difference, but I feel like v-neck tops, and those which generally have larger neck-holes are pretty feminine.  I know you like having your chest hair poking through, but the overall impression of v-necks looks feminine to me, and people tend to make their assumptions of gender before getting close enough to pick up on chest hair.

Your face has changed dramatically since you first started T, so I wouldn't lose hope yet.  I joined these forums around the same time as you started T I think if it's been two years (how time flies!) and to be honest, I struggled to see how you would pass as male back then.  Now I struggle to see how people see you as female sometimes.

Quote from: AlexanderC on May 04, 2013, 05:58:32 PM
Maybe it's just me, and it all depends on whether you feel it's worth trading your style for the chance of passing a little more consitently, and of course, it might no make any difference, but I feel like v-neck tops, and those which generally have larger neck-holes are pretty feminine.

I agree that v-necks don't help with passing.

Quote from: spacerace on May 04, 2013, 08:26:46 PM
I agree that v-necks don't help with passing.

Yeah, that is true. Same with tight jeans on a transguy. Unless he passes 100% they just feminize him, imo.

I couldn't help but wonder what this woman was thinking the other month. I've been on HRT for over two years, and I was sitting in the driver's seat and Walmart waiting for someone. I was just reading a book and I notice a child tapping on my car, which is no big deal, especially because it's a piece of s***. Anyway, the woman says to her child, "Don't go hittin' her car, or that lady will come out and beat you." I didn't even look up but glanced around with my eyes and clearly no one else was around. It confused me because I had facial hair then and even before HRT I passed as male, until I spoke.

Some people are just strange, I guess. At the time I was slightly offended but got over it shortly, and just accepted it that she was wrong. Still uncomfortable, though.

And then the second set of face-only pictures without glasses is amazing! In the second picture you are most definitely a dude and I'd call you sir all day long. (ok, that sounds creepy)

Contacts maybe?

Modified to add - check out this website since they allow you to use prefab male and female faces of different shapes to figure out what glasses may look good on you. The FRAMES of your glasses look like something a woman would pick out. http://www.39dollarglasses.com/ (http://www.39dollarglasses.com/)

I can't get contacts. I also spent a good hour or so picking out my glasses.

Nygeel, first off woah hairline. Second I'm jealous of your facial hair. Idk about those people seeing you as a girl, but I see all male even with some "feminine" facial features I'd clock you as a guy with your voice and especially shadows on your face.
I wear v necks and skinny/tight jeans and it has never hindered my "passing", actually wearing normal men's jeans always did.

I think it's strange too. I pass about 95 to 100% now and it's gotten better since my legal name change. I think my face is similar and I also have big lips. I really don't know. It might be where you live. I think you've had a huge change.

Quote from: Darrin Scott on May 05, 2013, 10:11:17 AM
I think it's strange too. I pass about 95 to 100% now and it's gotten better since my, legal name change. I think my face is similar and I also have big lips. I really don't know. It might be where you live. I think you've had a huge change.

Same here I have no trouble passing at all, my face is round and my lips are full. I'm also a big guy and my fat is just starting to redistribute to my upper body. I also have very thin eyebrows like you Nygeel. I honestly have no clue what could be throwing people off except for some type of mannerisms or the are. You look 100 percent dude to me

Funny how guys here mention being taken as female, even with facial hair and deep voices. What's up with that?

Quote from: Amphoteric on May 06, 2013, 04:44:11 PM
Funny how guys here mention being taken as female, even with facial hair and deep voices. What's up with that?

No idea...happened again today. Was called "ma'am."

Quote from: Nygeel on May 06, 2013, 04:48:33 PM
No idea...happened again today. Was called "ma'am."

That blows my mind.

There's a trans guy in my support group who occasionally gets misgendered, but only from the rear. Could it be something like that, or do these people misgender you to your face??

Quote from: ford on May 06, 2013, 04:52:18 PM
That blows my mind.

There's a trans guy in my support group who occasionally gets misgendered, but only from the rear. Could it be something like that, or do these people misgender you to your face??

To my face and over the phone.

Quote from: Nygeel on May 06, 2013, 04:57:15 PM

Quote from: ford on May 06, 2013, 04:52:18 PM
That blows my mind.

There's a trans guy in my support group who occasionally gets misgendered, but only from the rear. Could it be something like that, or do these people misgender you to your face??

To my face and over the phone.

I still get the phone thing occasionally, even though my voice has changed enough. I think it's because I had a fake 'phone voice' and I somehow keep using it. Habit, I guess.

I hate getting misgendered. Even though I have not been on hormones very long, it still hurts, you know? When you make that mental shift. People not seeing that is pretty rough. Now i'm afraid i'll never pass. I mean I was very feminine before. I looked like this...

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p743/Pogo0/Photoon2-5-13at234AM_zps4f5963fa.jpg (http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p743/Pogo0/Photoon2-5-13at234AM_zps4f5963fa.jpg)

Theres no making that face look masculine. But it'd be pretty awesome if I passed some day. But seeing people two years on hormones that are not passing...almost makes me want to give up to be honest.  :-\

I look like this now. http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p743/Pogo0/Photoon4-20-13at308PM2_zps3aac652e.jpg (http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p743/Pogo0/Photoon4-20-13at308PM2_zps3aac652e.jpg)
About a month on hormones. And my voice, high as a kite. Im also 5'5" and 120. Sooo manly. >_<

The day I pass to one stranger, i'm going to throw a party.

People suck.

Pogopopez, I was pretty feminine looking before T as well, and it took me about 10 months to start passing regularly (at all actually - I never passed and then one day, I literally just began passing and it never stopped). But it still happened. :) I think you will be fine once your voice drops enough.

Does it get better, yeah it will.
I was having a lot of issues not passing but then all of a sudden about a month agoI started passing o_O Like, very often, even when I was, IMO acting feminine. I think it has something to do with my sunglasses. Females have softer eyes. It doesn't matter for the most part who you look at, most FTM's retain their 'female eyes'

My example seen here;
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F25.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_lmzyiz9PRu1qzqt8vo1_500.jpg&hash=ac0c8617c7cab4b8e3f8d8526d6fc9030f6d428c)
Mr. Sexy Pants up there has the body of a friggin god, but he still have soft, soft eyes. If I saw him in passing and didn't KNOW, I probably wouldn't misgender him, but if I stood and had a conversation with him (I'm one of those near constant eye contact talkers lol) chances are i'd notice how soft his eyes look.

It's a curse, but it's also nice! I trust a guy with a soft eye over a hard one. Easiest way to avoid it? Sunglasses. Also as others have said, a rounder face is more associated as a feminine feature, so as you continue to loose weight you're face should square up more and that will also help! For now, it's nice out, go pick out some sunglasses is my advice.

I'm also personally pay lots of attention to the mannerisms of men. Yesterday when I went to pick up my T I saw another trans-man who was so distinctly male I did a double take on him. Mostly because of how he walked and stood. He screamed cis-male because of these mannerisms. I try to make sure I use certain mannerisms, but nothing like that dude. Anyways, rounder face, soft female eyes and subtle non-verbal behaviorism can cause misgendering.

Quote from: Bastian on May 10, 2013, 06:50:06 PM
Does it get better, yeah it will.
I was having a lot of issues not passing but then all of a sudden about a month agoI started passing o_O Like, very often, even when I was, IMO acting feminine. I think it has something to do with my sunglasses. Females have softer eyes. It doesn't matter for the most part who you look at, most FTM's retain their 'female eyes'

My example seen here;
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F25.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_lmzyiz9PRu1qzqt8vo1_500.jpg&hash=ac0c8617c7cab4b8e3f8d8526d6fc9030f6d428c)
Mr. Sexy Pants up there has the body of a friggin god, but he still have soft, soft eyes. If I saw him in passing and didn't KNOW, I probably wouldn't misgender him, but if I stood and had a conversation with him (I'm one of those near constant eye contact talkers lol) chances are i'd notice how soft his eyes look.

It's a curse, but it's also nice! I trust a guy with a soft eye over a hard one. Easiest way to avoid it? Sunglasses. Also as others have said, a rounder face is more associated as a feminine feature, so as you continue to loose weight you're face should square up more and that will also help! For now, it's nice out, go pick out some sunglasses is my advice.

I'm also personally pay lots of attention to the mannerisms of men. Yesterday when I went to pick up my T I saw another trans-man who was so distinctly male I did a double take on him. Mostly because of how he walked and stood. He screamed cis-male because of these mannerisms. I try to make sure I use certain mannerisms, but nothing like that dude. Anyways, rounder face, soft female eyes and subtle non-verbal behaviorism can cause misgendering.

WHO. IS. THAT? WOAH! I wan't to look that dayum fine one day.

....But i doubt that'd happen.  :P

Oh and yeah, I have not exactly female but very awkward mannerisms in public. Like i'm noticeably uncomfortable. I feel like maybe our mannerisms change with the amount of confidence we have within ourselves. Like, if we are 100% sure and confident and comfortably see ourselves as male, without a doubt. (not worried that people will misgender us) We will be seen by others as male because they will subconsciously pick up on that energy. Just a thought. Just a thought. >_< Maybe?

@Pogopopez I actually don't think your face seems feminine in the before picture. I can't tell much about your body shape in those pictures, but your face certainly isn't feminine.

@Bastian I don't intend on losing more weight. I've had so many problems with eating disorders that it's not psychologically or physically worth it.

My body is sorta. I have a very small build, so men's clothes freakin' envelop me! And man, I have trouble with ED's too. Todays the first day in a week i'm eating normally. My extreme discomfort with my feminine qualities causes this. I was wondering if any other transmen had a problem with this...

I'm wondering if they don't really mean to misgender you. After all you have a beard. But what they are doing is reading some tiny clue you are giving in body language or something. So their response is more sub-conscious. I think gendering happens in the first miliseconds before you actually open your mouth to sir or ma'am. I've tried to figure out how I think I know what gender someone is. Well actually I don't, but I am guessing by these clues.

--Jay

Quote from: aleon515 on May 11, 2013, 12:45:09 AM
I'm wondering if they don't really mean to misgender you. After all you have a beard. But what they are doing is reading some tiny clue you are giving in body language or something. So their response is more sub-conscious. I think gendering happens in the first miliseconds before you actually open your mouth to sir or ma'am. I've tried to figure out how I think I know what gender someone is. Well actually I don't, but I am guessing by these clues.

--Jay

If they didn't mean it then wouldn't the retract it? EX: Here you go ma'am...sorry sir.
It's never said as if it were a mistake. Or in some cases a person will do it, I'll correct but they'll keep going and "slip up."

I had one day about a month ago where I was called Sir 5 times in 1 day. I wish I had stayed in bed that day. And I've been full time for over 2 years now. I went from this: (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi118.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo98%2FMiriTekker%2Fcandid%2520pics%2FHPIM0179.jpg&hash=ea2e8cbb3a545d94439b39a173339a177c3b0775)to this: (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi688.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv246%2FKeairaElisabeth%2FIMG_20130507_184913_zps9dc4bd88.jpg&hash=1453ffb30921cc7cd1a2cc5c1a86ea08c7b12fe8)
I can kind of understand. I know I was pissed that day I was misgendered, but it just made me work harder at passing and certainly not take it for granted.

Anyway, I'm not going to guess as to why you get misgendered because I don't exactly have a picture that tells the whole story. I dont know your voice, mannerisms, walk, etc.  But from personal experience, it can and does happen. and you're not the only one who gets frustrated. *hugs*