Susan's Place Transgender Resources

How long does it take for muscles to atrophy and become markedly less noticeable after starting HRT? I know I have only been on it for three months and that's probably not enough time for any difference and I guess I'm quite tiny and it doesn't matter but I do feel like my neck muscles are huge. I used to work them out constantly in order to make my neck look bigger and now that is seeming like a huge mistake. I guess it's not that big at 12.5-13 inches but proportionally I think it looks big. Mainly I think this cause I am just as strong as I ever was and I tested it out and I can bench 120 lbs. and lift all kinds of other weights. I actually think I might be stronger, though that doesn't seem possible. Maybe my neck isn't that big. I don't stare at people's necks very often lol

Around the 10 month mark was when I started noticing very serious atrophy. It wasn't until the 1 year mark that I was wearing tank tops or anything that would show off my upper body. Around the 14 month mark, I was still as muscular as one of my cis gendered female friends who has quite a bit of muscle. When I came back to see her after 6 months (this weekend) at the 20 month mark, she was finally saying she wished she had feminine arms like I have. I used to be able to do 15 pullups, 30 situps a minute, and 50 pushups. Now she's tossing me around the room when we play around.

Lol I have the same problem Alaina. I was always pretty scrawny because I was a long distance runner in highschool and would run 15-20 miles a day. I was never weak though I could do core workouts like nobodies business. Though after being on hormones for 24 months I can barely fight back against my 5'2 girlfriend lol.... she usually ends up pinning me to the bed and I struggle and then give up.... I don't miss being able to win at all  >:-)

Muscular atrophy usually starts at 6 months or so on hrt but it's a slow process so you should really be able to tell that it's happening after 12+ months on hrt. I was on the pill for the first year and a half of hrt but switching to injections sped things up a bit :P

Injections sped things up for me too. The thing is, I was still crawling through attics up til my 8th month on HRT, so I didn't really lose much til my 10th month. Sometimes I wish I had my old strength back just because my roommate still muscles me around. I think he's gotten the point that I don't like it anymore because I am no match for him because he hasn't done that in a few weeks.

Thanks <hidden member> and Alaina. I had this idea that it should atrophy quick but I guess not. And since both of you were quite active (like I was) I feel better knowing I won't have so much male-type muscle forever.

yea the best advice I can give is to just chill and let things happen. You'll be going about your everyday activities and then suddenly you'll notice it :)

Quote <hidden member>
yea the best advice I can give is to just chill and let things happen. You'll be going about your everyday activities and then suddenly you'll notice it :)

So true.

-Urgh, can't open jar.   >:(
-My 7 year old seems amazingly heavy (45 lbs)?  :o
-OMG, what's up with this trash?!!  ???

At 23 months, since I never had much strength to start with, I am so weak!   :laugh:

I always eat what I want, when I want. Hasn't stopped me from losing muscle.

Sigh, I wish I were seeing such results. I'm on cyproterone (which is supposed to be a stronger antiandrogen than spiro) and my testosterone is really, really low, yet I've only noticed minor change. My biceps are still... yeah, repulsive, my shoulders are still far from thin (though these at least have improved) and my trapezius muscles show but minor improvement. The only exercise I do is bring back the heavy bag from the grocery store, but hey, that's less than once a week, and only for about 10 minutes. :/

My estradiol does is awful, but I'd expect this kind of thing to go well at least. Nope. Super low testosterone and zero muscle training for, uh, ever, and still not-so-good results. Sigh.

If anyone ever tells you there are good sides to being the "wide and large" kind of person, they're lying or delusional. Seriously.

I can still hope it'll improve once my estradiol levels are in an acceptable range, but... Lately, life has been advising against that by crushing my hopes repeatedly for a few years.

I think muscle atrophy is real and does happen...years ago I measured my flexed bicep and it was almost 11 inches...now its little under 10. This isn't big even for a girl...many girls are equal if not bigger...its just I have more muscle then most girls have. I still look so muscular to myself but many people have said I just look in good shape.

I definitely feel weaker then years past but I think so many trans exaggerate their weakness to the extreme. I seemed to have lost more endurance then strength...though my children would argue against that...they always think their so much stronger then me!  I keep telling them I wish they were!! its just that their such skinny minnies...I'm even trying to get my middle one to work out more for football.

Ew, that's even more extreme than I. Well, what's extreme with me is hunger. If I don't keep an eye on myself I can eat... pretty much endlessly.

Something more practical and down to Earth is in order, but the ultimate muscle loss treatment has got to be spending 6 months on the ISS.

I suppose bouncing one's weight down and then up may prove helpful and lay fat and muscle down in a more aesthetic manner. But does muscle build up to where it was after discontinuing a calorie and protein deficient diet?

Uhm, no, mine has gone down by a lot. Before, I became obese in 3 months. Over fifty pounds, just like that. I still have the stretch marks. I would eat supper, then eat a big 450 g of yogurt with a few cookies, and then I'd still be hungry.

About a year... but it also depends on how receptive your body is to E. I've met more than one MTF on hormones for years that changed very little physically. The little blue pills are not magic. They just push things in the right direction.

Quote from: Just Shelly on May 16, 2013, 05:00:03 PM
I definitely feel weaker then years past but I think so many trans exaggerate their weakness to the extreme. I seemed to have lost more endurance then strength..

My experiences too. I had a roommate that swears she has become so weak and fragile after 8 months of hormones, yet she has a fold up bed that I can't even put up, which she does with 1 hand. My lung endurance has gone to crap though. It was never good before, now I can barely run from my door to my car without being out of breath.

I still think I'm probably more stronger than maybe 60-70% of cis women, but I've definitely met some (including my best friend) who undoubtedly are stronger. But all in all, I've only had to ask for somebody to open a jar or something twice since starting HRT.

BTW there's no way I'd ever wear that dress in my avatar pre-hrt. I had very cut and muscular shoulders from crawling around in attics and underneath houses.

Alaina

You do look very natural!! You wear that dress well!! I still feel like I have that muscular look...but I compare myself to other women at the gym and Its not that noticeable...and there are mirrors everywhere their!! maybe its just me!!

I do wear tanks and some dresses with spaghetti straps and I seem to blend well!

I still feel I have the upper strength especially compared to other women...but I also have attempted similar weight routines other women have on machines at the gym and I have a difficult time matching them...so maybe I'm not that strong. I always thought my legs were strong.....but then there's women older then me and half my age that kick my but on a leg press!!

I also get short winded more quickly....but smoking doesn't help either!!

well Muscle is maintained by testosterone so an anti androgen will prevent muscles from growing larger and should cause them to shrink. Estrogen speeds up the process but the more muscle you have the longer it will take to go away but for the most part it will go away. I guess it's the hardest thing we have to deal with in our transitions, we have to be patient and keep pushing forward. :P

Quote from: Just Shelly on May 16, 2013, 08:30:06 PM
I still feel I have the upper strength especially compared to other women...but I also have attempted similar weight routines other women have on machines at the gym and I have a difficult time matching them...so maybe I'm not that strong. I always thought my legs were strong.....but then there's women older then me and half my age that kick my but on a leg press!!

Women have actually been found to have the same if not slightly more strength in their legs than men do. So I imagine if you're doing leg routines that women have been doing for years and you've just started, I'm sure they'll blow you out of the water.

Quote<hidden member>
well Muscle is maintained by testosterone so an anti androgen will prevent muscles from growing larger and should cause them to shrink. Estrogen speeds up the process but the more muscle you have the longer it will take to go away but for the most part it will go away. I guess it's the hardest thing we have to deal with in our transitions, we have to be patient and keep pushing forward. :P

You ever see a female bodybuilder? Some are ripped. Its more than just T alone. Muscle use, genetics, and other physiological factors also play a part.

Quote from: Just Shelly on May 16, 2013, 08:30:06 PM
Alaina

You do look very natural!! You wear that dress well!! I still feel like I have that muscular look...but I compare myself to other women at the gym and Its not that noticeable...and there are mirrors everywhere their!! maybe its just me!!

I do wear tanks and some dresses with spaghetti straps and I seem to blend well!

I still feel I have the upper strength especially compared to other women...but I also have attempted similar weight routines other women have on machine's at the gym and I have a difficult time matching them...so maybe I'm not that strong. I always thought my legs were strong.....but then there's women older then me and half my age that kick my but on a leg press!!

I also get short winded more quickly....but smoking doesn't help either!!

I still look muscular too and its kind of depressing. But it is all shrinking slowly. I started on a really low dosage of E so I just have a little bit of catching up to do. I just wish it were a lil faster.

Quote from: JennX on May 16, 2013, 08:51:06 PM
You ever see a female bodybuilder? Some are ripped. Its more than just T alone. Muscle use, genetics, and other physiological factors also play a part.

I know that there are some ripped female body builders but the ones you see that are really large usually take steroids(testosterone) the ones that dont use steroids are much smaller. Though they are still larger than most regular women out there. Women also have less testosterone receptors so even when they use steroids they rarely if ever get even close to the size of male body builders. Also all women have Testosterone but just in significantly lower levels than men. I personally have less than 1ng/dl of testosterone because of cyproterone acetate and I run 15 miles a day still and do push up and sit ups and I'm still loosing muscle mass. :P

Quote <hidden member>
I personally have less than 1ng/dl of testosterone because of cyproterone acetate

I thought I was low at 11ng/dl, but <1ng/dl is seriously low. I can imagine that with lots of cardio as a means of muscle loss.

Quote from: Nicolette on May 17, 2013, 04:03:44 AM
I thought I was low at 11ng/dl, but <1ng/dl is seriously low. I can imagine that with lots of cardio as a means of muscle loss.

With that low of T, it's hard to do cardio since fatigue sets in VERY quickly. I'm consistently testing <10 and I need constant naps and I get muscle fatigue with the quickness....

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on May 17, 2013, 04:09:32 AM
With that low of T, it's hard to do cardio since fatigue sets in VERY quickly. I'm consistently testing <10 and I need constant naps and I get muscle fatigue with the quickness....

I do struggle with cardio, maybe that's why. I find that within a few minutes of being on the exercise bike I can feel a lactic acid build up in my legs and have to take it down a few notches and have to take it at a leisurely pace. Pre-hrt, cycling always used to be my forte. But <hidden member> is doing 15 miles a day with <1ng/dl. That's tough and probably requires a lot of mind control over pain. I suppose it helps having done it for years.

That worries me about HRT. I haven't started HRT yet and I am really skinny for a man. Women my height seem to have more muscle mass in their arms. I don't go to the gym but my job has me lifting 30- 100 lbs all day. I don't seem to gain muscle mass and I eat alot. I am 6'4" and weigh between 160 and 175.

I have <1 ng of T and have no fatigue problems. I ran 10km today and did a 90min gym session and feel fine, well sore, but fine.

I have cut out lunch and just have a piece of fruit. But have a good breakfast and a good evening meal. No weight gain and the sculpture is looking pretty good.

Exercise very regularly and have lost upper body but that is all. Interesting comment about the legs BTW, I have noticed no lose at all in legs. I was doing a 60 x 80 kg inverted leg squats today and they felt fine. I do wear compression shorts to keep the hamstrings from popping.

When I was pre HT  I was doing 60 x 60 kg, so no loss at all. I just can't pick up the 80kg (in lots of 20kg) to load the machine :embarrassed:

I have to ask for help :embarrassed:

When i was on hrt after about a month and a half, maybe 2 months, just going up the 2 flights of stairs and lifting about 10 flattened boxes became  really sore adventure lol.

Sounds to me before I start HRT I would want to either get transferred to a position less demanding or find new job all together.

Quote from: misschievous on May 17, 2013, 10:46:10 AM
Sounds to me before I start HRT I would want to either get transferred to a position less demanding or find new job all together.

Oh yeah, to say the least... lol!

Luckily I have a while for that though. I don't get insurance until June/ July and I have found a therapist that is covered under the Insurance policy. I am waiting until then to start any of it. I can't afford to have couple hundred dollars a month in therapy costs. around here they run $50- $150 a session and weekly sessions that is anywhere from $200- $600 a month.

Well I've also been running long distance since middle school so I'm used to it. Also most long distance running comes down to mental endurance anyway. :P

[quote ] <hidden member>
Well I've also been running long distance since middle school so I'm used to it. Also most long distance running comes down to mental endurance anyway. :P
[/quote]

So you don't get tired at all? That's good to hear. I do a lot of walking and I don't get tired. But I had to run for the train the other day and I get so winded. But that could just be I'm not used to sprinting. I really don't want to be all tired all the time if I have to do something which requires endurance.

I am physically unable to run. So I can only cycle. But I don't want my already bulky legs to become more defined. And Cycling doesnt work the abdominal to well either. my problem is I am pudgy in the belly area. God I hope that sit-ups wont give me mantastic abs -_-

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi688.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fvv246%2FKeairaElisabeth%2FIMG_20130507_184930_zpsf5fbe01d.jpg&hash=3cabbdd26ec1f4abc8128f8a43bd3274a7744067)

my arms are getting smaller so I'm happy there. Especially since I don't have to carry a huge impact gun around.

Quote from: Alainaluvsu on May 17, 2013, 04:09:32 AM
With that low of T, it's hard to do cardio since fatigue sets in VERY quickly. I'm consistently testing <10 and I need constant naps and I get muscle fatigue with the quickness....

I have the same problem, cardio tires me out very fast.

you'd be surprised what long distance can do for bulky muscles. I used to run with an avid swimmer and he was super bulky but he stopped swimming and started running and after 3 years he was like a stick lol. All exercise requires you to stick with it and over time it will be as easy as walking and then you can relax and enjoy the scenery around you. That's the best part of running, going out on a trail run and looking at all the greenery and listening to the sounds. :)

I do a lot of cycling and try not to lift anything over 5 lbs :D it's pretty much impossible though.

So far it's been working. I am down almost a whole inch on each arm when not flexing (9.5") and about .5" while flexing (11"). But I still get self conscious about my arms. This thread gives me hope that time on HRT will continue to work its magic in coming months!

chica your arms are sexaaay. Seriously your body shape is awesome based on what I can see in your profile. Also that dress is really flattering on you. It's shows of your shoulders which, I might add, are very feminine :P

I've been on a low dose of HRT for about two years now. Looking at recent pictures of me I still seem to still have the upper body bulk that i had pre-hrt but i've discovered that jars are now hard to open, and doing mechanical work using hand tools is a lot harder than i remember (tighten a bolt to 160 ft lbs? Can't do that any more). I frequently hike and i seem to be extremely winded each time about 40 yards up the first hill so i'm not building up any endurance.

Quote<hidden member>
chica your arms are sexaaay. Seriously your body shape is awesome based on what I can see in your profile. Also that dress is really flattering on you. It's shows of your shoulders which, I might add, are very feminine :P

Thanks <hidden member>!! I have been working loads on my posture and I feel like I'm finally starting to get somewhere with automatic positioning. It definitely makes the hugest difference across the board for my overall confidence. I used to have such gawd awful posture... Lol. I know that HRT has shrunk my neck & shoulders most of all, though.

Anyway thank you again :D

@Alainaluvsu

QuoteWith that low of T, it's hard to do cardio since fatigue sets in VERY quickly. I'm consistently testing <10 and I need constant naps and I get muscle fatigue with the quickness...

You at slightly less than half the age of Shan & I, it is good to hear young people feel this too. Shan & I have pm shared about this, I was surprised that this happened  so quickly after having been on Spiro for 3 weeks I had to nap several times a day after lifting heavy items or chores around the house. Shan shared that she has to nap occasionally too. I am adjusting and getting slightly more energized. I am probably going on Estrogen after my next appointment with my Dr. on May 30.

@ misschievous & Jennygirl 

I have been skinny all my life too. I have always had skinny arms that I feel embarrassed about, I hope mine don't diminish or they will look like a toothpick. Yikes. Jenny, my upper arms look similar to yours. 

@ riven1

I am experiencing the same as you. My fingers have never been that strong & less so now. When it comes to jar lids if I couldn't get one open, my wife has strong hands so I pass the jar to her, I think I will be doing that more often now.

Quote from: Jamiep on May 17, 2013, 11:18:29 PM
I have been skinny all my life too. I have always had skinny arms that I feel embarrassed about, I hope mine don't diminish or they will look like a toothpick. Yikes. Jenny, my upper arms look similar to yours.

Well that is partly because I do have rather smallish arms but also partly because I know how to take a flattering photo. My arms look best when in that position. If they are laying at my sides, they look rather normal sized as they squash out. There is still quite a bit of lean male looking muscle there that I hope goes away. I usually just pay attention to what position my arms are in... There are more feminine positions for sure.. I.e. when holding onto a hand grip standing in the subway.

Jamie: being so drained of energy is so not how I've been in the past either. It got so bad, that a few weeks ago I was seriously thinking about going to the doctor and asking about it. It's been getting a bit better though, so I think I can put it off til my next doctor visit in June.

Quote from: Jennygirl on May 17, 2013, 11:28:47 PM
Well that is partly because I do have rather smallish arms but also partly because I know how to take a flattering photo. My arms look best when in that position. If they are laying at my sides, they look rather normal sized as they squash out. There is still quite a bit of lean male looking muscle there that I hope goes away. I usually just pay attention to what position my arms are in... There are more feminine positions for sure.. I.e. when holding onto a hand grip standing in the subway.

For 5 months in, you don't have much muscle at all. Unless you started out without much, HRT has really skimmed your muscle down exceptionally well so far. Regardless of what your arms look like when put to your side (it's common for cis women to look a bit muscular when they do that, too), the trapezius muscles don't look big at all.

And I love the dress. If I could rock black I'd be asking to borrow it lol!

I'm at close to 15 months on low dose HRT - I'm due for a blood test in the next few weeks but I can say that my T levels were just under the male range of average.
Even so, there have been some changes - I've lost a bit of muscle definition, and there has been a small amount of shrinkage on the arms.  The trapezius muscles have definitely shrunk a bit.  Much more noticeable is the loss of endurance - any physical sort of work will have me tired fairly quickly.

You should feel lucky I just measured mine and it is at 14"

@Alaina, You bring up a good point which I should ask my Dr. re energy loss when I see him May 30. I love your avatar you look so awesome femme & you look Happy in Love with life! I absorb like a blotter all your thoughtful input. Appreciate your responding.

@Jennygirl, Appreciate your response. I love that black dress, you rock female, I saw your video & an amazing transition in 5 months!

Have a Great weekend!
Hugs
Jamie

Alaina- well I think the combo of upping my E pellet dose by over 40% and not lifting ANYTHING heavy fairly strictly for two+ weeks after doing that did make a large difference. Lately though I've been lifting stuff because I have to.. I mean luggage for 10 days? That requires pretty much my whole wardrobe ;)

I hadn't actually tried to flex in a while, so I just tried. I spoke too soon or something.. Or maybe just thinking about it is making them go away because that bicep bulge is looking way punier than it did even last week before I left on my trip.

Jamie- I always appreciate your responses :) glad you enjoyed my video, hugs back at you!

@ Jennygirl. Aww, thank you doll. Now you have given me something to think about on my next vacation. Maybe at home I will have to rely on my wife to help lift down & up stairs. The luggage is on rollers so okay on the ground. If I am stuck at the airport I could always get a sky cap. All the best for a a successful surgery & speedy recovery. Safe travels. Listen to your body & be good to yourself.

This is a brilliant site & I cherish every slice of life shared here by all my new friends, you are all an inspiration especially you young ones that are leading the way for this oldster here. I have learned so much about myself in the last 12 years instead of going downhill, I am excited & energized with life, I feel a lot younger than my years.

Love all of you.

Jamie

I mentioned earlier that a women with normal female levels of T or a trans person with female levels of T and E will not be able to bulk up. Here are examples of a women on steroids (T) and then a girl who is extremely fit without steroids.

With Steroids
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F_ZS4t2jxBiJU%2FTOKhTrCqu4I%2FAAAAAAAAAKY%2FP7_RUUvN2N4%2Fs1600%2F10.jpg&hash=e515eebb23e1710f3226df893834b7522be08adf)

Without Steroids
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F24.media.tumblr.com%2F2de24f10463d7c285f6457744a56ec73%2Ftumblr_mhz688GxjF1s39eoto1_1280.jpg&hash=29c6964a3bb38d4f6d039f9b74411d349e40f464)

Notice how the woman on steroids has a more masculine bone structure (directly caused by to much testosterone) :S

No added T (Toni West):

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fweeklyphoto.fbbfan.com%2F2010%2Fnovember7-toniwest.jpg&hash=689339382b406449f5edd52dcc29c0f288824002)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F--bX_73BwDcI%2FT7akZFz5_xI%2FAAAAAAAACsU%2FO_Le7BiLdR8%2Fs1600%2F510308280.jpg&hash=cb44ea5031ba907b6e4a811115d0d4d8316596df)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-66JMG5TDbZE%2FUKbGh9mnV9I%2FAAAAAAAAMRY%2Fitqx_SFlDdU%2Fs1600%2F36579_4922442857604_1860198733_n.jpg&hash=115ff369bbad30e16e2ca44cf10a37388394c9f7)

She's pretty bulky & cut in my book. YMMV.

do they have blood tests to prove that she didn't use steroids? Because I'm looking at her face and either she has a super bony facial structure or she's been using some type of steroid or supplement to boost her testosterone. I find that the body building community is a lot like the porn community. They all tell everyone their "all natural" but frequently they are not. For instance Jordan Carver and Denise Milani both claim that they are all natural curvy women but they both had breast augmentation done.

I watched some videos of her working out I think you're right on her being steroid free. She doesn't look like she does in some of those photos where her chin looks really broad and she doesn't have steroid voice. She must just be one of the few that work their asses off and have the genetics for it.

Quote, <hidden member>
do they have blood tests to prove that she didn't use steroids? Because I'm looking at her face and either she has a super bony facial structure or she's been using some type of steroid or supplement to boost her testosterone. I find that the body building community is a lot like the porn community. They all tell everyone their "all natural" but frequently they are not. For instance Jordan Carver and Denise Milani both claim that they are all natural curvy women but they both had breast augmentation done.

Yes. She does. WNBF drug tests all competitors. Trust me... It has a lot to do with genetics as well as training, diet, and exercise. I used to be big in to weight lifting, and some of the biggest/strongest guys were all natural (T free).

Just because you're a MTF on HRT you can still build muscle mass. Myself and a few other people I know are proof.

I'm close to 8 months hormones and I've lost quite a bit of muscle mass in stages. At about 6 months a noticed a very noticeable loss in both mass and strength especially. it sucks because a lot of people at work still know and view me as male and they think I can lift things for them.....I can't  :P Things that use to be pretty easy to lift and carry are much heavier.

Sigh, why am I not noticing any capability differences? My mother is still stronger than I and has always been, but I'm still not weak by my standards and haven't gotten weaker. :c

Quote from: A on May 22, 2013, 08:05:15 AM
Sigh, why am I not noticing any capability differences? My mother is still stronger than I and has always been, but I'm still not weak by my standards and haven't gotten weaker. :c

Are you more feminine? Why would you want to be Weak? That is saying that women are weak?

Ironically enough I lost a lot of strength but no muscles AT ALL... Maybe in the thighs a little. I was already on the puny side for males though so now as a woman I look like an Olympic swimmer  but my upper/lower body ratio is well within female range nonetheless so I don't mind all that much I was already weak enough as a guy so yeah =P

Quote from: Seyranna on May 22, 2013, 10:36:11 AM
Ironically enough I lost a lot of strength but no muscles AT ALL... Maybe in the thighs a little. I was already on the puny side for males though so now as a woman I look like an Olympic swimmer  but my upper/lower body ratio is well within female range nonetheless so I don't mind all that much I was already weak enough as a guy so yeah =P

Ditto.

Pre-transition, I used to do a lot of cycle racing, great thighs with little upper body strength. Although puny looking, my power to weight ratio was greater than well seasoned, muscular male types and I used to be able to beat them uphill, astonishing many. I no longer race, or even cycle for that matter, because tucking and narrow hard seats aren't compatible. Post-op, I'd love to cycle again. I relate to the Olympic swimmer sentiment. But I can't lift a thing for shoot.

Quote from: misschievous on May 22, 2013, 08:36:04 AM
Are you more feminine? Why would you want to be Weak? That is saying that women are weak?

I want to lose muscle, because it looks and feels awful. I don't especially want to be weak, but the way I understand it, it's normal to lose strength when you lose muscle. So I'm sad that I haven't lost any strength, because it might mean my muscle loss is even less than I imagined.

Quote<hidden member>
I mentioned earlier that a women with normal female levels of T or a trans person with female levels of T and E will not be able to bulk up. Here are examples of a women on steroids (T) and then a girl who is extremely fit without steroids.

With Steroids
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F_ZS4t2jxBiJU%2FTOKhTrCqu4I%2FAAAAAAAAAKY%2FP7_RUUvN2N4%2Fs1600%2F10.jpg&hash=e515eebb23e1710f3226df893834b7522be08adf)

Without Steroids
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F24.media.tumblr.com%2F2de24f10463d7c285f6457744a56ec73%2Ftumblr_mhz688GxjF1s39eoto1_1280.jpg&hash=29c6964a3bb38d4f6d039f9b74411d349e40f464)

Notice how the woman on steroids has a more masculine bone structure (directly caused by to much testosterone) :S

EUGH! why the hell would you want to bulk up like that first woman? that's horrible. Guys look weird enough when they do that but when women do it.. her breasts look like bubble wrap bubbles held in place by her bikini top. I'd rather look like contestant number 2. Healthier and trim without being scary creepy.

I envy the second woman. She's visibly been trying hard, yet het arms are still smaller than mine. (No doubt she's heaps stronger though.)

Eh, break both legs? Oh, but that would bulk up your arms because they'd be used for locomotion... Break all limbs! :D (but be careful to keep your wrists healthy for, uhm, entertainment)

More seriously, in the past, I've been told to consult with a private trainer, that they would have efficient ideas for reduction of fat and muscle. Surprisingly, if I believe what I've been told, there is exercise that REDUCES muscle, compared to inactivity. I don't nearly have the money for such a fancy thing, but if you do consult a private trainer, I would love to be informed!

PS: I wasn't saying I envied the muscle, just but the inability of building any large muscles, as opposed to me, who's just sitting most of the day, almost never doing any exercise, and still has more muscle than that. As far as I'm concerned, of course the steroids woman is disgusting, but the second one's muscles aren't enviable to me either. I want to be thin, and I've been heavily traumatized by my muscles, so I don't care about being "fit", as long as I'm healthy and sort of in shape.

Quote from: girl you look fierce on May 22, 2013, 08:13:09 PM
How can I lose thigh muscle when I have to walk all the time??

On vacation I really noticed how fat my thighs are.. I swear half my weight is just in my thighs. I got sores between them chafing from walking all day.. And I was jealous of the girls w the skinnier thighs :(

I have pretty fat thighs too and always have since puberty. It would take a lot for me to wear short shorts even though I adore the look and I have great legs but I have stretch marks all down my inner thighs and they're really bad right around my groin but they go half way to my knees. In 2003 I got sick like something fierce and I had to inject this medication into my thighs to get well. The nurse said too bad you're not a girl then you could inject it in your thighs because girls have way more fat there and guys have all muscle and then she squeezed my thighs and was like "Ooh great! You can do it just like every other girl there and it's so much easier. Lucky you!"

I think she was trying to be nice and just figured I could do it there since I also have severe gynemcostia (and stretch marks on my boobs too) and was trying to be nice without coming out and you're build just like a woman.

But yeah I have to walk a lot too and I think now that you are suppressing your T a lot better (which is awesome btw I'm really happy for you!) that the any muscles there will atrophy. You may get fatter thighs as a result but that's a lot better then icky muscle.

Quote from: A on May 22, 2013, 08:05:15 AM
Sigh, why am I not noticing any capability differences? My mother is still stronger than I and has always been, but I'm still not weak by my standards and haven't gotten weaker. :c

Well how long has it been?, it does not happen over night, I have been on HRT for 19 years this last time, and I still have some muscle left over from when I worked out at 19, at 50 I can still show a pretty impressive bicep. Now there is no way I can pick up a 250 pound pipe like I did as a machinist at 19 or lift a motorcycle like I did when I was younger, I have trouble opening jars now  ???
but there is still some muscle left. The point is it takes time.

Quote from: girl you look fierce on May 22, 2013, 08:13:09 PM
How can I lose thigh muscle when I have to walk all the time??

On vacation I really noticed how fat my thighs are.. I swear half my weight is just in my thighs. I got sores between them chafing from walking all day.. And I was jealous of the girls w the skinnier thighs :(

As I said above patients , let the HRT work, even as you do do things the muscles can go away, I ride a bicycle every day and my muscles are not getting any bigger. With the HRT muscles don't really seem to develop as much, just let them slowly go away, keep walking to stay fit.

Eh, fifteen months since my testosterone became low for even a girl. To be honest after so many years antiandrogens can't do more for you. Unless this whole time they've been insufficiently dosed.

Oh, and I have never worked out or done any strength-related exercise except when forced at school, and believe me, I made a point of making it utterly useless and stretching truth on my journal sheets. Maybe I've done... 200 repetitions total of lifting 20 lbs with both hands; up to 10 with my shoulders but seriously that was only when the teacher was looking; I mostly stuck with 5. A total of maybe 40 push-ups in my life. All forced, and all incredibly difficult. Never more than 10 at once, though mostly I collapsed after 3, or 5 with willpower.

Whatever I can have done, apart from carrying grocery bags which I still do every ~10 days, and my school bag and purse, their effects should be long gone now. Weights were about 8 years ago, and the last time I entered a physical conditioning room was 3(?) years ago for my college physical education class. Never did anything with the arms, and even if it was the legs, I tried to keep it as cardio as possible.

Quote from: A on May 23, 2013, 06:19:42 PM
Eh, fifteen months since my testosterone became low for even a girl. To be honest after so many years antiandrogens can't do more for you. Unless this whole time they've been insufficiently dosed.

Oh, and I have never worked out or done any strength-related exercise except when forced at school, and believe me, I made a point of making it utterly useless and stretching truth on my journal sheets. Maybe I've done... 200 repetitions total of lifting 20 lbs with both hands; up to 10 with my shoulders but seriously that was only when the teacher was looking; I mostly stuck with 5. A total of maybe 40 push-ups in my life. All forced, and all incredibly difficult. Never more than 10 at once, though mostly I collapsed after 3, or 5 with willpower.

Whatever I can have done, apart from carrying grocery bags which I still do every ~10 days, and my school bag and purse, their effects should be long gone now. Weights were about 8 years ago, and the last time I entered a physical conditioning room was 3(?) years ago for my college physical education class. Never did anything with the arms, and even if it was the legs, I tried to keep it as cardio as possible.

That is not all that long at all in the face of a whole life, give it time, remember, a whole body gets reconstructed every seven years.

(I actually was a body builder when I was 19 and had to let the hormones take that down, so you do not have it so bad) I worked everything, and had extreme muscles and the HRT got rid of it, but it did take like 2 years or so. please have patience and let it work.

Oh, but I do have patience; tons of it. I was tossed around for 3 years before finally being allowed HRT, and then I've been waiting for a decent dose of estrogen for 15 months, yet I'm still here, not suicidal (well, not often) and not self-medicating. I'm usually humble, but may I call that iron patience?

Hope, however, I don't have much of it. Sort of feels like my body regards big biceps as just as essential as bones without osteoporose, and much more important than not giving me yucky pimples and smells whenever I let my scalp or underwear area be moist. :p Also, I should mention that at 22 years old, things are supposed to go much faster and better than in someone older.

Quote from: A on May 23, 2013, 06:57:28 PM
Oh, but I do have patience; tons of it. I was tossed around for 3 years before finally being allowed HRT, and then I've been waiting for a decent dose of estrogen for 15 months, yet I'm still here, not suicidal (well, not often) and not self-medicating. I'm usually humble, but may I call that iron patience?

Hope, however, I don't have much of it. Sort of feels like my body regards big biceps as just as essential as bones without osteoporose, and much more important than not giving me yucky pimples and smells whenever I let my scalp or underwear area be moist. :p Also, I should mention that at 22 years old, things are supposed to go much faster and better than in someone older.

I am sorry you had it so hard, that is very difficult  :(  when I went through HRT and it took me that much time, I was 23 though so I was not that much older than you, they started me on a fairly low dose, and then ramped it up.

The question is when will they invent something where we can lose height. I'm 5'10 and I hate it.

Quote from: Jenni on May 24, 2013, 04:37:01 AM
The question is when will they invent something where we can lose height. I'm 5'10 and I hate it.

Why so? There are plenty of women in that range and nobody says You have to be under 5"6'... I am 5"9' and I am very comfortable with my height.

Quote from: Jenni on May 24, 2013, 04:37:01 AM
The question is when will they invent something where we can lose height. I'm 5'10 and I hate it.

Feel Lucky I am 6'4" From what I heard it is possible to lose as much as an inch from HRT which still puts me at 6'3"

Alaina lost, what, 4 inches? I think you can expect anything from the most empty nothingness to shrinking a lot. :p

Sammy: Depends on people. Some like to be tall, because it gives them an overlook on people and makes them feel less vulnerable. Other dislike it, because it attracts attention and makes them feel superior. Others, regardless of all that, just hate it because taller means having more of a male trait. Because it doesn't matter that there are many tall women; women are still statistically shorter.

I was 5'6.25 inches since I was 16 and haven't grown at all. Since HRT, I am now 5'5. I can't imagine being 5'3. But if I shrink to 5'4 I won't mind. I am happy where I am at so I hope I don't shrink at all but whatev I have to do this so can't change it. And I am not mis-measuring it is really happening. I shrunk a 1/4 inch in the last month.

I know it's probably stupid but I've always wanted to be dainty and petite.

5'3" is more or less the average height for a woman, though, isn't it?

Jenni: It's not stupid, and you're not alone in that either. It's just frustrating for feminists.

Quote from: Jenni on May 24, 2013, 05:50:31 PM
I know it's probably stupid but I've always wanted to be dainty and petite.

I think most of us here do.

Quote from: Jenni on May 24, 2013, 05:50:31 PM
I know it's probably stupid but I've always wanted to be dainty and petite.

Not at all stupid. I totally get that, especially among my larger women friends.

Opposite for me. I've wanted to be a tall thin model type. I have the body for it (though it's gotten a bit flabby over the decades), but not the face.

Wow all this talk about being petite or Tall thin model type is getting me anxious to see what I am going to look like when it is all said and done  :angel:

Well, I'm "short" but still taller than the average woman, and also pretty bulky, which is probably second behind tall and bulky in what a woman doesn't want to be. And despite still not especially trying and still not having a good hormone dose I mostly pass. So don't worry too much, will ya?

Quote from: Jenni on May 24, 2013, 05:50:31 PM
I know it's probably stupid but I've always wanted to be dainty and petite.

Well muscles aren't cute!

Quote from: A on May 24, 2013, 10:15:46 PM
5'3" is more or less the average height for a woman, though, isn't it?

Jenni: It's not stupid, and you're not alone in that either. It's just frustrating for feminists.

It really depends on where you are in the world, but in the USA where I am it is about 5' 4.6" for women, around the world is both taller and shorter

http://www.disabled-world.com/artman/publish/height-chart.shtml (http://www.disabled-world.com/artman/publish/height-chart.shtml)

I think as far as getting shorter, it all depends on rib cage muscles. When I tried to get into the Coast Guard, they were afraid after doing situps and running that my ribs muscles would grow and I would be too tall.

I never knew about that. People also mention the spine's curvature.

Hmm I wander about the spine curvature? My spine is almost perfectly straight. In fact, I have to see a chiropractor every other week because of it. I wander once that is fixed if I will be shorter? I hope so :)

Well, I think after a while on HRT the back becomes more hollow towards the bottom, as the pelvis tilts more backwards. It makes sense to think a few centimeters can be lost that way.