Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Kia Ora,


Different religions, spiritual and or atheist belief systems have different outlooks when it comes to death...

Most of those with religious or spiritual beliefs tend to agree that if a person's behaviour in this life is somewhat unwholesome then when they die they'll end up reaping what they had sown or in some cases if they 'ask' for forgiveness/repent to a god, then they'll toddle off to one form of heaven or other...

Some believe where one ends up will be permanent, whilst others believe it's just temporary ie, they will work off their bad debt then move on to a better place...

Many Atheists believe when your dead your dead ! Consciousness is snuffed out and recycling of the body starts to occur-end of story...

There's a lot more to it than what I've mentioned above, but you get the gist of how we 'all' tend to see things...

Another example: A Moslem has a Christian friend who dies, according to other Christians this person's soul [if one believes in a soul ] will go to the Christian heaven, but according to the Moslem friend they will go where 'all' the non Muslims go...And visa versa if the Moslem friend dies etc, etc...

What I'm getting at is, when another person dies, they will end up going to a place according to what other people 'believe'  :angel: >:-) and nobody can prove anything different to counter their belief...

When people whom I know die, they[according to my belief] will go where I 'believe' they will go and no place different[In this case you're lucky because I believe in rebirth so wherever you end up, it won't be permanent –unless it is Nirvana  :icon_yes: :angel: ]...And when I die [according to their belief] I will go where they 'believe I will go...

Do you see how confusing and ridiculous our beliefs can be ?  :angel: >:-) :icon_yes: :icon_no:

Beliefs can be a cold comfort for some...

As some of you already know I go with the flow of the Buddha's teachings, that is...

"I'm an Atheist in that I don't recognise an absolute personal deity...But I'm not philosophically atheistic because I don't deny Ultimate Reality!"

( I borrowed the above quote from somewhere, possibly from some literature on Zen, but it sums up where my mind's at ! )

Comment if you feel the urge to, or just ponder your personal beliefs...Either way such is life after death !

Metta Zenda :)

and then there is the Buddhists who believe when you die you go to another "plane" where you life'sed deeds are reviewed, and if you have not learn enough then you come back to be reincarnated..cycle goes on until one day you have learn all there is to be learn and your reach Nirvana...one with the universe...one with G-d


We Jews believe that G-d gives a divine Soul to every human. When a human dies the Soul, unscathed by the actions of the human (good or bad) goes back to G-d. We also believe that every human has an spirit, and  that when we die the spirit goes to the "Sheol" where we wait for the resurrection at the end of times. The Sheol is poorly defined, and we do not know what is the fate for the spirits of bad people.

It is important to know that in Judaism there is no "sin" as defined by Christianity, we prefer to refer to our failures as "missing the mark," or "missing an opportunity."

All I know for sure is I existed once.  That of course being right now.  So, what's to keep me from existing again?  Ergo,  I think I believe in reincarnation.

I hope I do better in high school next time.  :-\

For the longest time my plan was to get through life the best I could as a guy, then reincarnate as a girl and finally have peace of mind.  Then I became an atheist and eventually decided that relying on reincarnation isn't as reliable as transitioning now.

ALSO!  I'm reminded of a joke:

Quote
Dr. Schambaugh, of the University of Oklahoma School of Chemical Engineering, Final Exam question for May of 1997. Dr. Schambaugh is known for asking questions such as, "why do airplanes fly?" on his final exams. His one and only final exam question in May 1997 for his Momentum, Heat and Mass Transfer II class was: "Is hell exothermic or endothermic? Support your answer with proof."

Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law or some variant. One student, however, wrote the following:

    "First, We postulate that if souls exist, then they must have some mass. If they do, then a mole of souls can also have a mass. So, at what rate are souls moving into hell and at what rate are souls leaving? I think we can safely assume that once a soul gets to hell, it will not leave.

    Therefore, no souls are leaving. As for souls entering hell, let's look at the different religions that exist in the world today. Some of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, then you will go to hell. Since there are more than one of these religions and people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all people and souls go to hell. With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in hell to increase exponentially.

    Now, we look at the rate of change in volume in hell. Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in hell to stay the same, the ratio of the mass of souls and volume needs to stay constant. Two options exist:

        If hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter hell, then the temperature and pressure in hell will increase until all hell breaks loose.
        If hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until hell freezes over.

    So which is it? If we accept the quote given to me by Theresa Manyan during Freshman year, "that it will be a cold night in hell before I sleep with you" and take into account the fact that I still have NOT succeeded in having sexual relations with her, then Option 2 cannot be true...Thus, hell is exothermic."

The student, Tim Graham, got the only A.

Quote from: Anna! on May 24, 2013, 09:07:49 PM
For the longest time my plan was to get through life the best I could as a guy, then reincarnate as a girl and finally have peace of mind.  Then I became an atheist and eventually decided that relying on reincarnation isn't as reliable as transitioning now.

ALSO!  I'm reminded of a joke:

Kia Ora Anna,

Yes that joke's quite funny, it also reminds me of what a local Kiwi politician had to say regarding same sex marriage..It was one of the funniest  but serious speeches I've heard in a long while...The speech went viral  ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCDEiaoEP2U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCDEiaoEP2U)

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: peky on May 24, 2013, 06:59:55 PM
and then there is the Buddhists who believe when you die you go to another "plane" where you life'sed deeds are reviewed, and if you have not learn enough then you come back to be reincarnated..cycle goes on until one day you have learn all there is to be learn and your reach Nirvana...one with the universe...one with G-d


We Jews believe that G-d gives a divine Soul to every human. When a human dies the Soul, unscathed by the actions of the human (good or bad) goes back to G-d. We also believe that every human has an spirit, and  that when we die the spirit goes to the "Sheol" where we wait for the resurrection at the end of times. The Sheol is poorly defined, and we do not know what is the fate for the spirits of bad people.

It is important to know that in Judaism there is no "sin" as defined by Christianity, we prefer to refer to our failures as "missing the mark," or "missing an opportunity."

Kia Ora Peky,

I think what you are referring to when you say another "plane"...You meant either one of the six realms...
According to ones karma one will end up in one of these 'transit lounge' realms:  and according to Buddhism they are all  dukkha,(Unsatisfactory)  meaning they are temporary and imperfect and are all just a 'psychological state' or a situation one might find themselves living in due to their past karma.

1.   Devas (gods)
2.   Asuras (titans or demons)
3.   Pretas (hungry ghosts)
4.   Narakas (hell beings)
5.   Tiryakas (animals)
6.   Manushyas (humans)

Believe it....Or not !  ;) ;D

BTW there is nobody (no god or gods) there to do any 'reviewing'...

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Kuan Yin on May 24, 2013, 04:53:18 PM


Most of those with religious or spiritual beliefs tend to agree that if a person's behaviour in this life is somewhat unwholesome then when they die they'll end up reaping what they had sown or in some cases if they 'ask' for forgiveness/repent to a god, then they'll toddle off to one form of heaven or other...

I believe this - but that the 'reaping what they sow' happens on earth. I think most the major religions got it right, except that heaven and hell are states on earth. And more mental than anything else. There's no place more unsafe and terrible than my own mind.

QuoteAnother example: A Moslem has a Christian friend who dies, according to other Christians this person's soul [if one believes in a soul ] will go to the Christian heaven, but according to the Moslem friend they will go where 'all' the non Muslims go...And visa versa if the Moslem friend dies etc, etc...

When I was an indoctrinated kid, I used to worry about certain loved ones because I was taught if they didn't say 'the magic words' they'd burn in fire. Then you feel a responsibility to say the right things and save them from this. A torturous way to think.

As for myself, I don't believe we actually cease to exist, as energy cannot be destroyed. What form we take and whether it's still consciously individualized, I don't know.

Believe is as its name implies,you believe or not.And whe are spiritual people in basic.The power off the mind can do miracles ,and is sooting.
To bad most is turned in religions,and altered to suit a group.
So simply said i respect what YOU believe and feel,but find you a moron if you need a other to tell you what you must believe !

I like this:

Quote from: Not-so Fat Admin on May 25, 2013, 07:01:21 AM
When I was an indoctrinated kid, I used to worry about certain loved ones because I was taught if they didn't say 'the magic words' they'd burn in fire. Then you feel a responsibility to say the right things and save them from this. A torturous way to think.

Got me thinking of Geroge Carlin second commandment when he squeezed the 10 commandments down.  "Keep thy religion to thyself."

I don't talk about my philosophy very often.  I do find it kind of amusing my belief in reincarnation was informed by a twist on mathematical induction!  My Discrete Math Professor put it once, "If one domino falls, the rest have to" so I just applied that to "I'm alive now!" :)

The comfort I get from my belief is it is a philosophy and it can change.  It's also only mine so if I'm wrong I'll be the only one to pay any consequences if there are any.  But that seems silly to me cause I think I'm a good person.  And for me I'm in rare company too as I'm seeing articles that the new Pope is advocating that even atheists can get into heaven if they're good!  Now this guy holds positions I very much disagree with but, I also expect little from popes.  So I cannot help but like the guy so far! :)

As energy can not be destroyed just changed, that fits right in with my belief in reincarnation.  No heaven no hell, just change.

Kia Ora and thanks for your responses,

"There's no place more unsafe and terrible than my own mind.
As for myself, I don't believe we actually cease to exist, as energy cannot be destroyed. What form we take and whether it's still consciously individualized, I don't know."
@NSFA

"The power off the mind can do miracles ,and is sooting."
@ BlonT

Kia ora,

Ah the magic of the mind never ceases to amaze...

"If you correct your mind, the rest of your life will fall into place !"

There's an interesting concept in Zen (Well some Zen masters teach it...well to be more precise Zen Master Dennis Genpo Merzel-I just picked up a copy of his book in the local Red Cross  secondhand shop) which is called Big Mind ` Big Heart...He goes on about the different minds we use in everyday life and especially the "seeking & grasping Minds"
You might like to check this out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2kgimH5rYQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2kgimH5rYQ)


"the new Pope is advocating that even atheists can get into heaven if they're good!  Now this guy holds positions I very much disagree with but, I also expect little from popes.  So I cannot help but like the guy so far!"

@Misato

Kia Ora
Don't you find it a little strange that after a couple of thousand years the Pope/Vatican now decides it's ok for 'good' atheists to go to the "Catholic" heaven...If you think about it, most people who call themselves atheists really don't give a toss what the Pope thinks, but I guess for him to say this does open the door to more (dare I say 'rational') dialogue ...


"As energy can not be destroyed just changed, that fits right in with my belief in reincarnation.  No heaven no hell, just change".

@Ms. OBrien

Kia Ora,
Most scientists tend to agree we are just made up of  bundles of vibrating energy & matter, that some  Buddhists call Kalapas "In Theravada Buddhist phenomenology, Kalapas are defined as the smallest units of physical matter. tiny units of materiality,  Kalapas are understood by some Therevada thinkers as actual subatomic particles and the smallest units of materiality "

These are brought/held together by cause condition & effect="Karma"=action & reaction= personal & cosmos...

When I think of rebirth (Which is different to reincarnation) I think of the continuous recycling of matter & energy ie earth, water, fire, air...

Metta Zenda :)

To be clear, I've never been catholic.  Just what the pope is up to is such pervasive news in the US.  It's refreshing to hear some more welcoming rhetoric from one.

While my beliefs are inspired by Buddhism and esotericism I've been part of the Theravada throughout my entire adult life..

I'm just as convinced that reincarnation and karma exist as I am that a tree exists or a house, or a mountain.

I believe that we exist permanently and eternally in a metaphysical realm which permeates the entire Universe and that each of us in feeling incomplete in our souls crave attachments to that whatever makes us feel complete and whole.

My view of life or living existence is pretty much the same as what a cigarette is to a smoker. We crave attachment as much as a smoker craves nicotine and as a smoker reaches for a cigarette we seek out and take possession of an embryo which we adopt as our bodies through which we can experience life and develop ourselves within our souls.

As any smoker will tell you there is some variation as to how long a cigarette is smoked and how long is the length of the butt which is discarded. A smoker can become distracted and drop the cigarette, just as a smoker can become distracted and let the cigarette burn out, without smoking it and getting any nicotine. Also something can knock the cigarette out of the hand of the smoker, something can cause the cigarette to go out, or the smoker can smoke a few puffs and then stub the cigarette out.

This is pretty much the same as what can happen in life.

You can only smoke a cigarette for a short period of time even if you smoke all of it.

The same can be said of life.

But if we exist eternally, then so does everyone else, and so too do our relationships. Imagine that you are smoking a cigarette on the balcony of an apartment at a party where everyone you ever knew in life is attending. Now imagine that the party is attended by everyone and anyone you ever interacted with in all of your previous lives up to the present.

This is how I see the spiritual realm.

Nirvana to me isn't anything perfect - for perfection to me is an illusion, a state of non-existence, as is heaven and hell as is commonly presented. You cannot exist in a permanent unchanging state.

Nirvana to me is complete freedom and power, where you are aware of your entire existence and have no desire for attachments, cravings or suffering.
.
You can only ever exist in one state, and that one state is reality, that what you can perceive. That state is here and now.

Your beliefs are based on your ability to conceive, and that is what motivates you to develop and evolve.

Both truth and illusion are relative to perception, which is individual wherever it is abstract.

Therefore all beliefs are valid.

Quote from: Misato on May 26, 2013, 07:52:22 AM
To be clear, I've never been catholic.  Just what the pope is up to is such pervasive news in the US.  It's refreshing to hear some more welcoming rhetoric from one.

Kia Ora Misato,

Yes that's true...Perhaps miracles do happen after all  ;) ;D
i
Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: StellaB on May 26, 2013, 09:34:43 AM
While my beliefs are inspired by Buddhism and esotericism I've been part of the Theravada throughout my entire adult life..

I'm just as convinced that reincarnation and karma exist as I am that a tree exists or a house, or a mountain.

I believe that we exist permanently and eternally in a metaphysical realm which permeates the entire Universe and that each of us in feeling incomplete in our souls crave attachments to that whatever makes us feel complete and whole.

My view of life or living existence is pretty much the same as what a cigarette is to a smoker. We crave attachment as much as a smoker craves nicotine and as a smoker reaches for a cigarette we seek out and take possession of an embryo which we adopt as our bodies through which we can experience life and develop ourselves within our souls.

As any smoker will tell you there is some variation as to how long a cigarette is smoked and how long is the length of the butt which is discarded. A smoker can become distracted and drop the cigarette, just as a smoker can become distracted and let the cigarette burn out, without smoking it and getting any nicotine. Also something can knock the cigarette out of the hand of the smoker, something can cause the cigarette to go out, or the smoker can smoke a few puffs and then stub the cigarette out.

This is pretty much the same as what can happen in life.

You can only smoke a cigarette for a short period of time even if you smoke all of it.

The same can be said of life.

But if we exist eternally, then so does everyone else, and so too do our relationships. Imagine that you are smoking a cigarette on the balcony of an apartment at a party where everyone you ever knew in life is attending. Now imagine that the party is attended by everyone and anyone you ever interacted with in all of your previous lives up to the present.

This is how I see the spiritual realm.

Nirvana to me isn't anything perfect - for perfection to me is an illusion, a state of non-existence, as is heaven and hell as is commonly presented. You cannot exist in a permanent unchanging state.

Nirvana to me is complete freedom and power, where you are aware of your entire existence and have no desire for attachments, cravings or suffering.
.
You can only ever exist in one state, and that one state is reality, that what you can perceive. That state is here and now.

Your beliefs are based on your ability to conceive, and that is what motivates you to develop and evolve.

Both truth and illusion are relative to perception, which is individual wherever it is abstract.

Therefore all beliefs are valid.

Kia Ora Stella,

That's an interesting take on things...I hope these beliefs bring you comfort...

Metta Zenda :)

I've always enjoyed the Vodoun depiction of guédé spirits (the spirits of the dead and gone) as an irreverent carnival. Just all the dead folks havin a blast drinking, smoking, making bad jokes and having a whole lotta fun. They're dead so they no longer have all that suffering that is the human condition.

But personally I'm pretty comfortable with the idea of oblivion; body, self, mind, all the bits of my totality torn asunder and recycled into the creative nothing never to be put together in the same way again.

Quote from: Kia on June 03, 2013, 06:03:13 PM

But personally I'm pretty comfortable with the idea of oblivion; body, self, mind, all the bits of my totality torn asunder and recycled into the creative nothing never to be put together in the same way again.

Kia Ora Kia,

Hail to the great recycler ! When you're dead, may you rest in piece/s ;) ;D

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Ms. OBrien CVT on May 25, 2013, 10:15:13 AM
As energy can not be destroyed just changed, that fits right in with my belief in reincarnation.  No heaven no hell, just change.

but that is only 4% of the Universe.....who knows what the rest of the Universe has in store for you  >:-) :laugh: :laugh:

Quote from: Kuan Yin on May 24, 2013, 10:43:25 PM
Kia Ora Peky,

I think what you are referring to when you say another "plane"...You meant either one of the six realms...
According to ones karma one will end up in one of these 'transit lounge' realms:  and according to Buddhism they are all  dukkha,(Unsatisfactory)  meaning they are temporary and imperfect and are all just a 'psychological state' or a situation one might find themselves living in due to their past karma.

1.   Devas (gods)
2.   Asuras (titans or demons)
3.   Pretas (hungry ghosts)
4.   Narakas (hell beings)
5.   Tiryakas (animals)
6.   Manushyas (humans)

Believe it....Or not !  ;) ;D

BTW there is nobody (no god or gods) there to do any 'reviewing'...

Metta Zenda :)

Just plain "astral planes," no need to invoque titans, demons, or Gods...

Have you ever noticed, at funerals, the deceaced is always pretty much going to heaven even though the person may have been the lousiest parent, stolen countless things, treated other people badly and so on?

What happens and what reality we have after death can only be proven arfter a person dies. Beliefs may be a safety mechanism of the mind to allow us to accept death and allow the ego to accept that it may survive eternally. Many religions and belief systems accept that you will reap what you sow either by differing planes of punishment and reward. Many others believe in the Spirit or Soul manifesting in a physical body over and over again until lessons are learned. I tend to believe this way but not as much on a relious point of view.

I tend to believe in reincarnation because of stuff I have read and experienced with past life regressions. The scientific hierarchy disclaims it because you can always lead a patient under hypnosis to certain conclusions. The religious hierarchy won't acknowledge it because it goes against common perceptions that churches have held for mellinia. To me though, it explains everything form hauntings to being transgendered and to stillborn babies that never had a chance at life and being born with a defective body with ailments such as mental retardation and so on. Or just why we plain do some of the things we do. Being 100% sure, I can't say. I can only go with what I feel is the truth in the dynamics of human Spirituality and what feels right for me. Others I can't even begin to comment on but I do hold their beliefs in high regard to what they may feel is right or right for them.

The only thing that I know for sure is that each and everyone of us will eventually have our answers because death is the one thing in life that is a constant variable.

Kia Ora,

Some food for 'thought"  (Thought being the key word here)

Human cognition depends upon slow-firing neurons

"Insults to these highly evolved cortical circuits impair the ability to create and maintain our mental representations of the world, which is the basis of higher cognition," said Amy Arnsten, professor of neurobiology and senior author of the paper published in the Feb. 20 issue of the journal Neuron.

High-order thinking depends upon our ability to generate mental representations in our brains without any sensory stimulation from the environment. These cognitive abilities arise from highly evolved circuits in the prefrontal cortex. Mathematical models by former Yale neurobiologist Xiao-Jing Wang, now of New York University, predicted that in order to maintain these visual representations the prefrontal cortex must rely on a family of receptors that allow for slow, steady firing of neurons. The Yale scientists show that NMDA-NR2B receptors involved in glutamate signalling regulate this neuronal firing.  These receptors, studied at Yale for more than a decade, are responsible for activity of highly evolved brain circuits found especially in primates.!"
http://news.yale.edu/2013/02/20/human-cognition-depends-upon-slow-firing-neurons-yale-researchers-find (http://news.yale.edu/2013/02/20/human-cognition-depends-upon-slow-firing-neurons-yale-researchers-find)

"The cerebral cortex is largely responsible for human cognition, playing an essential role in perception, memory, thought, language, mental ability, intellect and consciousness. It is composed of about 20 billion neurons and accounts for 40 percent of the brain's weight!"

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/07/060721182137.htm (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/07/060721182137.htm)

So when you 'die' who or what 'knows' (is aware) it is in/ experiences this so called  afterlife (be it a form of heaven/ hell or 'transit' lounge ) ? Bearing in 'mind' what we presently 'experience' involves 'thinking' and thinking involves 'neurons'-cells that make up the 'organic' brain that no longer functions when the body dies and begins to decay...

"Thinking is just movement confined to the brain !"

And now for some pretty pictures that will make you 'think'  ;) ;D

( This video is an interesting one to ponder ) :eusa_think:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wI388XoCp48 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wI388XoCp48)

Umm atheism does seem to have a point...


Who is it that sees things,and feels joy/pain/fear/happiness etc etc in the 'afterlife' when the organic matter and energy no longer function as a unit?...

However, one of many more spiritual takes on where  'thoughts' come from... Eckhart Tolle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWFVi1cPUZo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWFVi1cPUZo)

Umm spiritual belief does seem to have a point !

I did warn you...It's food for thought and thought itself is the thinker!

Beliefs can bring Comfort Or Despair... And what 'are' beliefs but simple..................

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Jess42 on June 04, 2013, 01:20:46 PM
Have you ever noticed, at funerals, the deceaced is always pretty much going to heaven even though the person may have been the lousiest parent, stolen countless things, treated other people badly and so on?

Kia Ora Jess,

You make a very interesting point...How we never seem to speak ill of the dead even if they were   real evil/hateful bastards in life...

Mind you when Maggie Thatcher(a former British Prime Minster)  died just recently, many people did just that, rejoicing singing things like "Ding dong the witch is dead the wicked witch is dead!"

Edited BTW this is Maggie Thatcher (just in case you didn't know)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VRRWuryb4k (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VRRWuryb4k)

Metta Zenda :)

There is just one thing that I have a hard time accepting when it comes to Nuerology and all of this just happens in our "brains", near death experiences that happen in operating rooms. This is one aspect of the puzzle that a lot of Christian believers actually believe in. Maybe just because a lot of people experience seeing feeling Jesus's presence (which concretes their beliefs and validates their religious perceptions) but I might add, starts out the same as the death experience in past life regressions. Past life regression in this instance go a lot farther than near death experiences and shows that the beginning experiences are physical perceptions that the Soul hasn't rid itself of yet. Like I said, Past life regression mirrors near death experiences to the "T" with the exception that the person doesn't come back into the body but goes on to different phases of the experience.

Anyway, I have had surgery before and when they inject the medicine in the IV tube you are out. There are many instances that a patient that has died during surgery and can remember, without hypnosis, and recount whole conversations that happened when their temporary death had occured. They can also 'see' what the medical staff did to try to ressucitate the dead body. If you are knocked out for surgery, how can this be? Is this actually a part of ourselves that survive the physical death? I know during my surgery, I didn't know anything until the anesthesiologist brought me back. It was 45 minutes of nothing. To me it was felling really good, then I was asked if I was ready and then the medicine was injected. The next thing I know the lady was asking me if I felt OK when she brought me out of the anesthesia. No memory of actually slipping into unconsciousness with no dreams or anything. This is the main reason why I can't accept that near death experiences are wholly neurological in that the brain is creating the whole experience. Or for that matter the whole aspect of death being nothing but a brain event.

Kind of like the chicken and the egg paradox, what came first? The mind or the brain? What is the mind? It's not physical. The brain is of course but where do our personalities and perceptions really come from? Is this something that is brought about by nuerons firing in the brain or is it something that is a holdover or something that we are born with? I do believe in science and find it quite intriguing for the most part but I think a lot of time scientists leave out a certain Spiritual aspect to their research. I am not talking about a religious aspect but rather an aspect of intellegent design instead of any specific perception. The old saying "mind over matter" interests me. Is this a hint of evolution? Are we mentally evolving higher and higher mental capabilities? Look at us now compared to a thousand or five thousand years ago. A lot of people look to the bible and see a differnce between the God of the Old Testement and the God of the New Testement. What I see when looking with an open mind is not so much a differnce in God or the Creator but a difference in human peceptions of a Devine power. Our understanding has changed and is constantly changing, not the Creator. We used to think that when you sailed far enough in a ship, you would fall off the edge of the earth. We now know the plant is a sphere and not flat and that no matter how hard you try, you will never sail off the edge of the planet. Our perceptions changed and we see the our world different than the ancients saw it. I believe our Spiritual perceptions change too according to what we can or are willing to percieve. Look at how much our perceptions of the Universe has changed over time. We used to believe that we were at the center of the universe and the sun and the solar system revolved around the earth. We now know that we are not at the center of the Universe and we and the other planets revolved around the sun and the sun revolves around a point in the galaxy. WHat changed? Nothing but our perceptions. Everything else is pretty much a constant and has been doing its thing for mellenia.

I believe that religions should be used as pieces of a puzzle instead of being fought over or disagreed upon or used as a means of control. Once perceptions change enough, it's only a matter of time until another religion takes over and holds the symbolism of the age in which spawns it's birth. Corruption by governments or established religions can herald this. Also out of a deperation and hunger for knowledge by the people, or just a staleness by the common accepted Spiritual beliefs of the time. A lot of Christians believe that the Book of Revelation is an end time event. I see it as the death of the old and worn out and the rebirth of a new perception of the Devine Entity. The Mayan Calender sparked the end of one age and a lot of folks believed that something spectacular would happen. What if it did and we don't even percieve it? It started over with the 2nd baktun and the prophecy in that is that it will be the end of "the word of God". What is the word of God? It could be the Bible, meaning that perceptions for the last roughly two thousand years will be changed or forced to change to another higher form of perception. For example we might even see that God or The Creator gave us all the tools to control our own destiny instead of percieving that that particular Entity intervenes in every little detail of our lives or anyone elses. We may even begin to percieve corruption in governments and religious entities instead of just blindly following without question. We may even percieve death as an extension of an eternal existance than just the end of life period. The possiblities are endless when it comes to perceptions and how we see the world and universe as compared to how our world and universe truly are.

Anyway, I am usually and by nature and experience the world's most pessimistic person but when it comes to Spirituality, for some reason I seem to be the world's most optimistic person. Go figure that one out. If anyone can tell me why I am such a paradox in a matter such as this, please enlighten me. I warn you though, I have been called crazy, insane, ignorant and the list goes on for my beliefs. I am about ready to start believing them.

Quote from: Misato on May 25, 2013, 08:11:51 AM
I like this:

Got me thinking of Geroge Carlin second commandment when he squeezed the 10 commandments down.  "Keep thy religion to thyself."

I don't talk about my philosophy very often.  I do find it kind of amusing my belief in reincarnation was informed by a twist on mathematical induction!  My Discrete Math Professor put it once, "If one domino falls, the rest have to" so I just applied that to "I'm alive now!" :)

The comfort I get from my belief is it is a philosophy and it can change.  It's also only mine so if I'm wrong I'll be the only one to pay any consequences if there are any.  But that seems silly to me cause I think I'm a good person.  And for me I'm in rare company too as I'm seeing articles that the new Pope is advocating that even atheists can get into heaven if they're good!  Now this guy holds positions I very much disagree with but, I also expect little from popes.  So I cannot help but like the guy so far! :)

OK well I am a Gnostic Atheist, I am not really interested in Heaven, especially anything I have heard about the Christian idea of heaven that I grew up with, it really sounded boring, the idea of sitting around telling some guy how great he is forever just does not interest me. god just seem really selfish to me. Like some two year old who threw a lot of temper tantrums whenever you did not pay enough attention to him.

Kia Ora Jess,

According to Buddhist teachings, the 'mind' is just 'knowing' and is the root from which 'all' things grow...The 'self' can never acquire pure unpolluted knowledge of the mind- No-self can...

It could be said we are all a paradox of a kind...bundles of selves that make up what we call a personality which is in a constant state of flux ever changing not remaining the same for one moment...

If you attempt to look for your 'self' you can never find it...

"There was a young man who said though it seems I know that I know, what I would like to see is the "I" that knows me when I know that I know that I know!" 

Alan Watts

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: vegie271 on June 05, 2013, 11:01:10 AM



OK well I am a "Gnostic" Atheist,

Kia Ora Vegie,

:eusa_think: I like that  ;D

Metta Zenda :)

QuoteOK well I am a Gnostic Atheist

Yeah this doesn't make sense to me. Gnosticism is a theistic system of belief, so how do you balance that with an atheistic viewpoint? As a religious studies student I'm always interested in how individuals define their spirituality.
[/quote]

Quote from: Kia on June 05, 2013, 05:10:01 PM
Yeah this doesn't make sense to me. Gnosticism is a theistic system of belief, so how do you balance that with an atheistic viewpoint? As a religious studies student I'm always interested in how individuals define their spirituality.

It is a way of stating that you are certain that "god" does not exist  ;D as opposed to simply being a Agnostic Atheist, sometimes I even go so far as to state I am even an anti-theist when I get confronted by really vehement fundamentalists  ;D

yeah but gnostics do very much believe in "god" they call it the Monad or the Absolute, but interestingly enough they believe that the common god that is the Creator is the Demiurge and creates this reality to keep us from the truth of the Monad. Phillip K. Dick had a cool gnostic idea that pretty much sums up gnosticism. He believed it is currently the year 36 and Jesus had just died on the cross, and Satan powerless to stop the resurrection created this whole illusion that the world went on when according to Dick in reality we are all just like ancient Romans or whatever; interesting stuff.

But aside from all that I think I get what you're saying. I was raised to be Catholic and I spent every sunday playing spaceship under the pews because Christianity seemed silly to me and I never understood how if God was omniscient and omnipotent why he cared about every little thing I did.

Edit: no yeah I definitely understand what you're saying now. like agnostic is "no knowledge" and therefore unsure,  you are gnostic "knowledge" and therefore are sure ;)

Quote from: vegie271 on June 05, 2013, 11:01:10 AM

OK well I am a Gnostic Atheist, I am not really interested in Heaven, especially anything I have heard about the Christian idea of heaven that I grew up with, it really sounded boring, the idea of sitting around telling some guy how great he is forever just does not interest me.

So totally get ya on heaven sounding boring.

Quote from: Jess42 on June 05, 2013, 09:55:39 AM
There is just one thing that I have a hard time accepting when it comes to Nuerology and all of this just happens in our "brains", near death experiences that happen in operating rooms. This is one aspect of the puzzle that a lot of Christian believers actually believe in. Maybe just because a lot of people experience seeing feeling Jesus's presence (which concretes their beliefs and validates their religious perceptions) but I might add, starts out the same as the death experience in past life regressions. Past life regression in this instance go a lot farther than near death experiences and shows that the beginning experiences are physical perceptions that the Soul hasn't rid itself of yet. Like I said, Past life regression mirrors near death experiences to the "T" with the exception that the person doesn't come back into the body but goes on to different phases of the experience.

Kia Ora Jess,

You may have already read/seen this...(Perhaps in a past life) ;) ;D

http://science.howstuffworks.com/science-vs-myth/extrasensory-perceptions/near-death-experience3.htm (http://science.howstuffworks.com/science-vs-myth/extrasensory-perceptions/near-death-experience3.htm)

Meta Zenda :)

Other people's beliefs often bring me despair, but mine don't. I figure that if yours do, it's time to switch.

Quote from: Arch on June 05, 2013, 11:49:56 PM
Other people's beliefs often bring me despair, but mine don't. I figure that if yours do, it's time to switch.

Kia Ora Arch,

That's true, but sadly for many people this is easier said than done...There's a lot of thought involved when it comes to changing ones beliefs (and I mean lots of 'thought' in the literal sense)...In some cases, years upon years of mental conditioning needs to be de-programmed then re-programmed by creating new neuropathways in the brain...

I'm happy to hear your personal beliefs bring you some form of contentment...

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Arch on June 05, 2013, 11:49:56 PM
Other people's beliefs often bring me despair, but mine don't. I figure that if yours do, it's time to switch.

Arch, you should be confident and comfortable with your beliefs, but don't let other's beliefs casue you distress or despair. What beliefs we have are unique to us as individuals and each of us are on individual Spiritual levels. Some people may actuall need the type of overcontrolling strict doctorine religions that cause so many outside of that particular religion despair. That path of enlightenment may not be right for you, it isn't for me anyway.

Kuan Yin. No it was this life that I read something similar. ;D I definately believe in supernatural occurances and paranormal phenomona in the sense that it is outside the realm on normal physics and natural perceptions. Eventually I believe that the supernatural and paranormal will be seen as perfectly natural and normal. Ghosts and disembodied spirits is an example. This phenomonon used to be scary but more and more, because of different shows on television, people are picking up voice and video recorders and heading to the nearest haunted location to experience it for themselves. I have investigated this all of my life (from 16 until now, almost thirty years off and on) and let me say that a supposed haunting used to be viewed as bad. the people experiencing it would be relieved that it just happened to be vermin, pipes, limestone deposits, running water underground and so on. If it was paranormal, they were relieved if we could somewhat prove that it was residual and not intellegent. Now more and more people seem disappointed when we can find a natural or normal reason why they are hearing sounds and a few have outright refused to believe when we have proof that we can debunk the haunting. I have had people contact me that have only had one experience usually with "shadow people". I go investigate and usually find nothing and when I try to tell them how the brain works by specifically recognizing human forms and faces and how shadows will sometimes trigger the brain's recognition skills and fool it into seeing human shapes or faces, they sometimes get offended. I myself have see "shadow people" but I recognize it for what it is.

I agree with you about easier said than done. The human ego keeps us mired down in a material world either out of fear or just a comfort in one's view of the world and their self image in that world. I believe that people need to keep an open mind when it comes to Spirituality and not get stuck in one line of thinking because when that train of thought derails, it is a traumatic experience. Not to mention that if something comes about that will blow that doctrine out of the water, we can recognize it instead of trying to hold on to outdated thoughts. Roughly every 1800-2600 years Spiritual perceptions change, but not peacefully though because of the old powers that think they be refuse to change their perceptions or relinquish their control. Along with the needed change of perceptions, teachers come to prod us along into expanding our views. Yeshua or Jesus was the harbinger of a new perception and just happens to be the one we are in now. Not in an established religious perception though. The first Buddah was one along with Abraham and Moses in the Bible.

Maybe my mind is so open that my brain fell out but if you look closely into it there seems to be a pattern or cycles to Spirituality. Much like there are cycles throughout our Universe. Some of them happen ever so slowly that we can't even percieve them in our lifetime like the 26000 year cycle of the Mayan Calender which ended on Dec. 21, 2012 and will end again on Dec. 21, 28,012 whether humans are on this planet or not. Or as fast as one rotation of the planet which is only 1 day to us.

Quote from: Jess42 on June 06, 2013, 07:57:01 AM



Kuan Yin. No it was this life that I read something similar. ;D I definately believe in supernatural occurances and paranormal phenomona in the sense that it is outside the realm on normal physics and natural perceptions. Eventually I believe that the supernatural and paranormal will be seen as perfectly natural and normal. Ghosts and disembodied spirits is an example. This phenomonon used to be scary but more and more, because of different shows on television, people are picking up voice and video recorders and heading to the nearest haunted location to experience it for themselves.

Kia Ora Jess,

I find this guy "Michio Kaku" quite entertaining, easy to understand and very educational...And when he explains what happens when the radio picks up different frequencies  (forms of energy) it opens up ones mind even more...Ah the possibilities are endless...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ks_UHmaZcSg&feature=endscreen&NR=1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ks_UHmaZcSg&feature=endscreen&NR=1)

::) So your mind is quite open but your brains have not fallen out (well not yet anyway) ;) ;D

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Kuan Yin on June 06, 2013, 02:30:17 PM
Kia Ora Jess,

I find this guy "Michio Kaku" quite entertaining, easy to understand and very educational...And when he explains what happens when the radio picks up different frequencies  (forms of energy) it opens up ones mind even more...Ah the possibilities are endless...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ks_UHmaZcSg&feature=endscreen&NR=1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ks_UHmaZcSg&feature=endscreen&NR=1)

::) So your mind is quite open but your brains have not fallen out (well not yet anyway) ;) ;D

Metta Zenda :)

Yeah Kuan Yin, sometimes I have to check the floor or rum the side of my face under my ears to check for gray matter leakage. ;)

I love to listen to Michio Kaku talk about theories and so on. The man does have a way of opening your eyes to other possibilities.

Quote from: peky on May 24, 2013, 06:59:55 PM

We Jews believe that G-d gives a divine Soul to every human. When a human dies the Soul, unscathed by the actions of the human (good or bad) goes back to G-d. We also believe that every human has an spirit, and  that when we die the spirit goes to the "Sheol" where we wait for the resurrection at the end of times. The Sheol is poorly defined, and we do not know what is the fate for the spirits of bad people.

It is important to know that in Judaism there is no "sin" as defined by Christianity, we prefer to refer to our failures as "missing the mark," or "missing an opportunity."

Kia Ora Peky,

I don't know much about Judaism, (or Kabbalah the 'mystical' part of Judaism that you follow) so I did a bit of digging and found this on "Sheol" ...(Which sounds an awful lot like the Catholic purgatory) 

"Sheol in the OT, comparable to contemporary Greek Hades or the Babylonian underworlds, was a place where dead human beings were sent, to maintain their being in a diminished state. It was a place inferior to natural human life, but not one of punishment, per se. Virtue and sin did not enter into it; based on the OT, everybody went to Sheol."

"Hebrew word of uncertain etymology (see Sheol, Critical View), synonym of "bor" (pit), "abaddon" and "shaḥat" (pit or destruction), and perhaps also of "tehom" (abyss)."

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13563-sheol (http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13563-sheol)


Metta Zenda :)

One thing that I find really interesting when it comes to belief systems is that most of them have more in common than not at least with the main message anyway. Sheol and Purgetory sounds like they could be used interchangeably. Same way with Karma and Righteousness. I think if religions could put aside petty differences and concentrate on the main message, our world would be a lot better place. Same way with science and religion. If we could study religion through a scientific mind and study science with a spiritual mind, we may have a lot more answers than we do now. What I know about Jesus or Yeshua, is through the bible with an open mind and through historical data surrounding the the myths of his life, times, and teachings also by using an open mind. There is a common denominator to all religions and that really is what should be the focus, not whether or not we are going to heaven or hell but rather trying to see ourselves, our fellow Souls and our world through the eyes of Love instead of the two spheres stuck in our skull.

What about Chakras? Where do we feel Love for something? Where do we feel dislike for something? Do the Chakra points outline the body of the Soul? I tend to believe that the human body is a vessel for our Souls and our Souls are the vessel of our Spirits and the Spirit is that which was Created in the image of the Creator and is pure and untainted like peky said. Our Souls on the other hand contain our personality/personalities and or self identification and allows us to be different and unique individuals. "God is Love" and "with God all things are possible" are really strong messages right straight from Christ's teachings. Unfortunately a lot of religions do not practice this. So according to the Bible, is it not possible that God created transgender people and even if "He" didn't how can a person justify the hate against us. Even when the Bible states "love thy neighbor"? What if God is both male and female, how would some of these religions handle that? Remember the words "with God all things are possible" and this is a possibility is it not? Just like a supervolcano or asteroid wiping out mankind is a possibility and both of these things have happened in the past. Somehow I think most religions would accept the end of mankind before they could except that their God is transgedered because most of them have created a mental image in their minds of what God is. You know you could also call it a mental "graven image" which is direct violation of one of the ten commandments. Anyway, when talking to uber religious people that see things in a constant good and evil light, I always have an argument along the lines of people who are living in glass houses but most of the time (99%) its as fruitful as talking to a brick wall.

Quote from: Jess42 on June 07, 2013, 07:50:45 AM
One thing that I find really interesting when it comes to belief systems is that most of them have more in common than not at least with the main message anyway. Sheol and Purgetory sounds like they could be used interchangeably. Same way with Karma and Righteousness. I think if religions could put aside petty differences and concentrate on the main message, our world would be a lot better place. Same way with science and religion. If we could study religion through a scientific mind and study science with a spiritual mind, we may have a lot more answers than we do now. What I know about Jesus or Yeshua, is through the bible with an open mind and through historical data surrounding the the myths of his life, times, and teachings also by using an open mind. There is a common denominator to all religions and that really is what should be the focus, not whether or not we are going to heaven or hell but rather trying to see ourselves, our fellow Souls and our world through the eyes of Love instead of the two spheres stuck in our skull.

What about Chakras? Where do we feel Love for something? Where do we feel dislike for something? Do the Chakra points outline the body of the Soul? I tend to believe that the human body is a vessel for our Souls and our Souls are the vessel of our Spirits and the Spirit is that which was Created in the image of the Creator and is pure and untainted like peky said. Our Souls on the other hand contain our personality/personalities and or self identification and allows us to be different and unique individuals. "God is Love" and "with God all things are possible" are really strong messages right straight from Christ's teachings. Unfortunately a lot of religions do not practice this. So according to the Bible, is it not possible that God created transgender people and even if "He" didn't how can a person justify the hate against us. Even when the Bible states "love thy neighbor"? What if God is both male and female, how would some of these religions handle that? Remember the words "with God all things are possible" and this is a possibility is it not? Just like a supervolcano or asteroid wiping out mankind is a possibility and both of these things have happened in the past. Somehow I think most religions would accept the end of mankind before they could except that their God is transgedered because most of them have created a mental image in their minds of what God is. You know you could also call it a mental "graven image" which is direct violation of one of the ten commandments. Anyway, when talking to uber religious people that see things in a constant good and evil light, I always have an argument along the lines of people who are living in glass houses but most of the time (99%) its as fruitful as talking to a brick wall.

I am sorry I can't beleive in some all powerful all knowing being who can run around doing things and make this wonderful universe, but leave it so messed up as it is. Why are things in such a state?

Asimov gave a much better theory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Question (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Question)

better than all of the delirious ramblings of prophets throughout  history

You have your right to your own set of beliefs.

They don't happen to agree with mine, but they don't have to.

Just make sure not to be to rude in expressing your thoughts.

Quote from: vegie271 on June 07, 2013, 11:09:34 AM



I am sorry I can't beleive in some all powerful all knowing being who can run around doing things and make this wonderful universe, but leave it so messed up as it is. Why are things in such a state?

Asimov gave a much better theory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Question (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Question)

better than all of the delirious ramblings of prophets throughout  history

I can't either vegie271. That is why my beliefs are outside of the realm of most if not all common belief systems. If you hit the links that Kuan Yin put up about Michio Kaku and look through about some of his views about God and then look at some of the views of Albert Einstien about God, it makes a lot of sense. Regardless though when Theoretical Physicist start throwing around the ideas of there actually being a Creator, it's something we should all be listening to. My views of God would have gotten me labeled an heretic 500 years ago because I don't believe in an intervening God that micromanages every little thing in our lives. But... there seems to be an order to the chaos of the Universe or else there would be no life in the Universe. Life on earth is a delicate thing. If the sun was a little hotter or a little colder, life on this planet would be limited to simple life forms or no life at all. It is balanced enough to allow for liquid water to exist and life to evolve to tremendous levels, ourselves being one of the life forms. How many other planets are habitable and contain liquid water for higher forms of life to evolve out of billions of solar systems in this galaxy alone? Not to mention possibly billions of galaxies in the Universe which could in turn contain billions of stars.

Wherever I look, it seems that there is indeed intellegent design. Why would an all knowing God leave it a mess? It's a trap when we personalize our Creator which is not even a human. It's not God's fault, it's our own.  We have Freewill and are free to make our own choices, good or bad, without intervention from the One that created us. This means that everything that is messed up falls on our heads, not God's. People have caused all of the geopolitical problems, environmental through damaging the planet not just with oil but also with developement, prejudice, crime and so on. These are not Devine actions by no means but personally we can use Devine reactions when we face these problems. And besides, our Spirits were what were Created, our bodies are just the same matter that this planet is made up of. Our Spirits were created in the same image of the Creator, what would be of most concern to God?

Everyone has a right to believe what they want or need to believe. I never call anyone wrong in their belief systems, even Athiest because I don't believe there are wrong beliefs. If a person don't have a need for a belief in a Creator, then there will be no belief. If someone needs a belief in a Strict, all knowing micromanaging God, then that is what the person will be drawn to. There are many levels in between.

It's not just prophets. The majority people believe in an existance after the physical incarnation. This existence is highly debateable in the specifics. I tend to believe in reincarnation because as complicated as being a human with human emotions is, I just don't think man can be prefected enough in 70 someodd years to have learned all life's important and complicated lessons. Others do. With the majority of the human race believing in an "afterlife", I just think it happens to be a subconscious or superconscious feeling that there is more. Remember that we can only see certain colors in the spectrum. From red to red or violet. The highest vibration that we can see with our eyes to the lowest. We know there is a lower vibrational level below red because through technology we can percieve it and it is infrared. We also know there is a vibrational level above violet and it is ultra violet. We can't see infrared or ultraviolet because both are out of the sectrulm of visable colors but they are there all the same. How many more colors are there that we can't see even through technology? Could we be missing whole worlds existing in unison with ours that we can't see or hear just because they are hgher or lower in vibrational levels than what our five senses can percieve? Same way with sound. We can only percieve between one vibrational level and another, yet dogs can hear sounds on either side or our range of hearing.

I really suggest that people that have never heard him talking to click on the links that Kuan Yin provided yesterday on Michio Kaku. He even mentions vibrational levels, which I talked about earlier in this post, and the multiverse theory. The man is brilliant when it comes to Theoretical Physics. If you think about it, wouldn't it be ironic if a scientist discovers the existance of a Creator? Spirituality for me is not about religion, heaven and or hell, looking good to my peers by sitting in church every Sunday but rather helping, loving, having compassion toward and respecting my fellow human beings and looking for a rhyme and reason for things that happen.

Quote from: Kuan Yin on June 06, 2013, 12:27:55 AM
I'm happy to hear your personal beliefs bring you some form of contentment...

Contentment, no. That, for me, would be a sign that something was horribly wrong and that I'd sold my intellect and integrity for Lethean ignorance.

Quote from: Arch on June 07, 2013, 03:15:24 PM
Contentment, no. That, for me, would be a sign that something was horribly wrong and that I'd sold my intellect and integrity for Lethean ignorance.

Kia Ora Arch,

Fair enough...

Whatever floats ones boat and helps it to stay afloat through the often turbulent waters of the ocean of life...

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Jess42 on June 07, 2013, 02:49:30 PM

I really suggest that people that have never heard him talking to click on the links that Kuan Yin provided yesterday on Michio Kaku. He even mentions vibrational levels, which I talked about earlier in this post, and the multiverse theory. The man is brilliant when it comes to Theoretical Physics. If you think about it, wouldn't it be ironic if a scientist discovers the existance of a Creator? Spirituality for me is not about religion, heaven and or hell, looking good to my peers by sitting in church every Sunday but rather helping, loving, having compassion toward and respecting my fellow human beings and looking for a rhyme and reason for things that happen.

I understand and yes I did go into and look at the links, I did read, I am listening, I don't just skim and spout. yes sometimes I am a loudmouth sorry I am somewhat emotional. I have been hurt by fundamentalists, that can cause problems.

but I have actually looked into some of the different things people have talked about and I still  just personally have a "physical, real, grounded, description" for my sense of reality.

from where I come from no spirit, I don't want to live again, I want no heaven, no hell, just get me out of here with as little damage as I can accomplish for the rest of my life.

Kia Ora Jess, (and others)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jremlZvNDuk# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jremlZvNDuk#)!

It's possible Einstein originally used the term "God" as a metaphor for the laws of physics. Physicists (such as Michio Kaku) continue to use the metaphor in memory/honour of Einstein.

However............a more sticky subject to ponder.....................

What 'is' consciousness ? If it is just 'awareness' then who or what becomes aware ?

So here's a simple question for atheists, agnostics, gnostics and theists to ponder(in other words all who believe in something...or no-thing) and one to stimulate the 'Zen' master locked within the confines of the 'self'...

"One hour and then another.
Inexorably march, step by step.
Whenever I meet you, we each smile.
But who is it who drags your corpse around ?"

Chan Master Hsu Yun (Empty Cloud)


Take a minute, an hour, a day-week-year, a lifetime to ponder Chan (Zen) Master Hsu Yun's question...And if you 'think' you 'know' the answer...well.......... then you know.....................

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: vegie271 on June 07, 2013, 06:14:40 PM


but I have actually looked into some of the different things people have talked about and I still  just personally have a "physical, real, grounded, description" for my sense of reality.

Kia Ora Vegie,

::) So who experiences this so called reality ? Who or what gives you this sense of experiencing reality ?  :icon_yikes:

Just some food for thought...

Metta Zenda :)

QuoteBut... there seems to be an order to the chaos of the Universe or else there would be no life in the Universe. Life on earth is a delicate thing. If the sun was a little hotter or a little colder, life on this planet would be limited to simple life forms or no life at all. It is balanced enough to allow for liquid water to exist and life to evolve to tremendous levels, ourselves being one of the life forms. How many other planets are habitable and contain liquid water for higher forms of life to evolve out of billions of solar systems in this galaxy alone? Not to mention possibly billions of galaxies in the Universe which could in turn contain billions of stars.

If you look for patterns they tend to appear.

The amount of the known universe is soooo super tiny compared to the total universe and since Earth is the only planet of its kind it seems rare. It's probable that life is actually quite prevalent and may take forms completely alien to the standard Earth lifeforms. But from what we can perceive experience existence looks to be some kind of fine tuned instrument; I would venture to say that chaos is the natural state of everything. The order is merely our perception of it. God, Ultimate Reality, or whatever you call it for me is that great big thing beyond our perceptions and even the perception of chaos as a whole. It's something that language fails to capture and I am assured that it's alive, maybe not thinking as we think but definitely living. It's this all encapsulating thing beyond physics, philosophy, religion, and all human understanding. We are just little itty bitty mirrors of it.

that's just my own wacky-daisical thinking, btw and kind of off topic has anyone read Michio Kaku's Physics of the Impossible in which he explains how all the cool scifi technology will work in the future.

Here's my take of it and I warn, is really out there. During medetation I don't even try to clear my mind anymore. I just let my mind wander until it finds something to fully concentrate on. One of these things is the possiblity of non existance. For me it is impossible to grasp the concept of non existance. That when we physically die that we just cease to exist on all levels. How would we know we were ever alive? What was life for anyway and are we just random forms of consciousness, intellegence and energy that pops into existance when we are born or concieved and then pops out of existance when the body dies? Is non existance possible? Yes it is as great a possiblity as intellegent design to the universe is.

Vegie271. I am not a fundamentalist. Probably the farthest thing from it. I believe there was a Christ but I also believe there was The First Buddah and many more and more yet to come. Like I've said before and will always say, even on my deathbed, is that religions should be built upon one another for a much bigger picture and better tools in order to achieve different levels of enlightenment. When it comes to the texts, I read them with a skepticle mind open to the possiblities that the stories are nothing but mere myths. I also try to put myself in the mindset of the people of the time that did write the stories. What the technology and superstitions were at the time. I also look into historical data of those times and then try to weed out the sensationalism and factors of awe. I am sorry that you have been hurt by fundamentalist, but we all have at one time or another. I get told things all the time like I don't believe in Christ and that I will burn in hell even though I do. When I mention that we shouldn't be worshipping as much as modeling our own lives after Christ, well you can just imagine how well that goes. There are a lot of other things that I say that would have gotten me burned at the stake 500yrs ago but fortunately today only gets me verbally downgraded. I won't change my views, no matter how dynamic they are, for anyone though and really don't care what others think of me. In the beginning all religions are Devine in nature but when the original teacher is gone, man takes over and we all know what is in the hearts of man. I am shunned by fundamentalists and atheists alike and equally. Both side scream at me with insults and judgmental words, but I don't let it bother me and what a person does shouldn't affect me with the same judgementalism and hatred that they have shown against me. I am the only one that has the power to allow myself to feel bitter, resentful, hateful and judgemental and I choose not to feel that way. Look at me. With all the the negativity I have experience from both side of the fence, I cannot and am not willing to judge anyone according to their beliefs, race, nationality, sexual orientation or what they think of me. I will say though that a belief in something positive and higher than yourself will allow a person to experience the positive emotions. No matter if the higher 'something" happens to be your own higher self or a statue that eminates nothing but good or a cow that you believes poops golden patties. As long as you percieve that the "something" is positive, you should experience more positivity in your own actions and thoughts. Negative emotions will eat you up physicall, emotionally and psychologically and nothing good will come of having these negativities.

This is way out there but it almost seems like the whole Universe is a time keeping piece. It seems to me not much different that the inner workings of the old watches where all the pieces are moving at different speeds. Revolutions of heavenly bodies revolving around a central point for example or solarsystem. Bigger systems rotating around a bigger central point, example or solar system in the Sagitarius arm of the milky way revolving around the center of the galaxy. The Mayans measuring 26000 year cycles accurately makes me wonder what other knowledge mankind has lost thoughout time.

Kia, looking for patterns and cycles. Yes random by luck of the draw patterns happen. But there is a pattern to human Spirituality too. Religious symbolism changes according to what astronomical age we are in. A lot of people I don't think can comprehend this cycle or pattern, if so I haven't run into them yet. The ages are roughly 2600 years. The transition is slow and we are now at this time and have been since the 1960's transitioning out of the Age of Pices and into the Age of Aqurius. In other words we are transitioning from the teachings of Christ to the next teacher that will come about. Ever really wonder why a lot of cars have the symbol of the fish representing Christ? It's because of the Age of Pices. A lot of the stories and mythes surrounding Christ has a lot to do with fish. I believe this is more than just a coincidence because the symbolisms of Moses and Abraham match the particular symbol of the age we were in at the time. Remember these ages are astronomical in the sun's elliptical path crossing through the constellation due to the earth's tilt of the axis, It is not astrological. Ever wonder what the Sphinx is? The weathering on the Sphynx matches that of the environment in that area at least 10,000 years ago. 26,000 divided by 2 is 13,000 and halfway between the Age of Aquarius back to the Age of Aquarius is the Age of Leo and I would be willing to bet that the Sphynx pays homage to The Age of Leo.

Kuan Yin. The question for eons has been who or what is God. That is the big unanswerable question. Even people who go through past life regression in a clinical setting can't answer it. This is what gives me some hope that reincarnation is an actual dynamic of human Spirituality. If these recollections from the subconscious or superconscious were just mere fantasies then the mind we would have fantasies of what God is. The one common equation to the question is that God is Love, just like what is written in the Bible and a prevailent message contained in Devine belief systems. One thing I find extrememly interesting and kind of surprising is that subjects under hypnosis liken us as being on a train. God or whatever you call It is the engine and we are on the last car as it's moving down the tracks. They state that we will evolve to the same point when God created us but it's probably impossible for us to ever be at the same level as God Since we are all evolving. They also have stated that God is niether male or female but one in the same, which I am sure others have heard me write on this forum before. Another interesting aspect is that everything is created to evolve. So, according to past life regressions God is above all of our understanding but we can understand the aspect of Pure Love and we will probalby never be on the same level as our Creator but achieve the same levels God has achieved. This leads me to my next question, "If God created us, who created God?" If God is an entity that is evolving according to past life regressions, then it makes sense that there would have to be a beginning with God just like with us. I know, we don't even know or comprehend our own Creator and here I am pondering upon the Creator's Creator. It's just one of the many places my mind goes when I meditate. I really surprise myself that I ain't in a rubber room wearing a straight jacket sometimes. I have to add that there is no specific prevailant religion among the people that experience past life regressions, they are varied throughout the Spiritual Spectrum. Some expetience a sense of Heaven and others Experience Hell. Some experience nothing but others they were close to that have died while other's experience a rejoicing. All for these experiences only last for a short while until the old physical human mindsets are shed and then it is all the same type of experience with slight variations according to life actions.

As for human consciousness though, there are different levels. Where or what they morph into after we are physically dead is a mystery. I do believe they exist outside of the physical body. One reason is because of paranormal activity to where there is no possible explaination for. I study paranormal activity so I know a little about it. Haunting come into two main categories, intellegent and residual. Residual would be like information stored in mineral deposit like limestone and quartz Limestone mixed with running water is a powerful recipe for residual activity and quarts, well it don't need anything. When atmospheric conditions are right, residual activity will occur and is usuall like a recording that will play over and over until those conditions change. More or less like playing a DVD or CD and hitting the button to pause or stop and then hitting play again later. There is nothing that is a willful intellegence controlling it. Itellegent activity is a tough one. When you can ask questions and recieve reactions from something that by all sane thought should not be there is mind opening. A lot of people metally can't handle it and why there is so much negativity surrounding paranormal activity. Also the reason why hollywood make billions from Ghost Stories. We all safely want to experience fear but when the safety is gone and the activity is occring or around you physically, it can be a traumatic event. When you record a disembodied voice in a voice recorder specific to a question you asked especially when it comes to names dates and such and you can back this information up through research, well there is something to it. I have to say though that all of the years I have done this, I have never had a really negative experience. I have however run into mischevious entities, resentful entities, bitter entities and so on. I have also run into happy, humorous and joking entities. I am 100% skeptical and around 96% of what I investigate I can debunk throug natural, mechanical or missunderstood causes but there is that 4% unexplainable with no normal causes.

How many layers of consciousness do we have? For sure without a doubt two; the conscious and the subconscious. Some psychologist believe in a third which is called the superconcsious. I am willing to bet there are many more that we can't experience knowingly. I have read and heard that there are at least 7 which is a powerfully significant number. Whether or not there are 7 I really don't know. Look how hard it is to experience the subconscious consciously. We can through hypnosis and while we are dreaming but tapping into the subconscious and understanding it knowingly is almost impossible. I believe that our consciousness in intellegent energy and since energy can't be destroyed it will continue to exist separate from the human body after a physical death. Where it goes and or what it transforms into is a question of Faith and is answerable only with uncomprehensible knowledge or a physical death.

Anyway, here's some more lunatic thoughts from a madwoman. ;D

Kia Ora Jess,

:icon_yikes: Wow ! Now that's some interesting theory you had tucked away...new agey but interesting all the same...

The mind is truly amazing... a source of wonder and for the most part it's an untapped source...

It's the root of 'all' things-peace-turmoil-love-hate-anger-joy-happiness-sadness...Yet one tends to look 'outside' at the 'illusion' for the means to appease/to be freed from their aversions (or desires) ...

"If you know your 'self' you'll know all there is to know!"


The ancient Chinese seemed to have had it all sown up 'way' back when....

Quote from a BBC article which summarises "The Tao" in easy to understand terms...(easy that is, if one lets the mind find its own 'way' )

The Tao is not a thing or a substance in the conventional sense.

"It cannot be perceived but it can be observed in the things of the world. Although it gives rise to all being, it does not itself have being.

Although it's conventional to refer to The Tao, some writers think that the "the" should be dropped because it isn't in the original Chinese term.

They feel that using 'the' gives Westerners the idea that the Tao is a metaphysical reality, by which they mean a thing (in the widest sense) or an absolute being like a god.

But even the name Tao can lead Westerners to think of Tao in the same way that they think of objects.

That sort of thinking is misleading: Thinking of the Tao as some sort of object produces an understanding of the Tao that is less than the reality.

It might be more helpful to regard Tao as a system of guidance. And if one does this one can translate 'achieving union with the Tao' into 'developing oneself so as to live in complete conformity with the teachings of the Tao' which is easier to understand, and closer to the truth.

Glimpsed only through its effects

A good way of avoiding the Tao-as-object error is to see the various concepts of the Tao as doing no more than describing those effects of the Tao that human beings are aware of. They do not describe its reality.

The Tao is not God

The Tao is not God and is not worshipped. Taoism does include many deities, but although these are worshipped in Taoist temples,(by those who see Taoism as a 'religion') they are part of the universe and depend, like everything, on the Tao.

The 'Tao' includes several concepts in one word:

•   the source of creation
•   the ultimate
•   the inexpressible and indefinable
•   the unnameable
•   the natural universe as a whole
•   the way of nature as a whole

BTW Jess, if you remove the person behind the title "The Buddha" what are you left with ?....
= An A _ _ _ _ _ _ D Mind

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Kia on June 07, 2013, 06:44:17 PM

If you look for patterns they tend to appear.


that's just my own wacky-daisical thinking, btw and kind of off topic has anyone read Michio Kaku's Physics of the Impossible in which he explains how all the cool scifi technology will work in the future.

Kia Ora Kia,

I haven't listened to it yet, but I found this radio interview where he talks about his book:

Michio Kaku "Physics of the Impossible"

Michio Kaku Physics of the Impossible (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGq5wMi79HI#)

BTW It would seem the brain is 'programmed' to seek out patterns...

Metta Zenda :)

Kia Ora Jess,

On the topic of consciousness...There are many ways/possibilities to understand it, for example...

::) The theory to blow the mind wide open...(With or without the use of psychedelic drugs)  :icon_yikes: ;) ;D

Starting with the subconscious which for the most part is the level of 'knowing' the physiological need of the body...It regulates our breathing(we breathe whether we are conscious of it or not)...It's aware of all what's going on in the body and mind and what our senses pick up from the external world-

Our 'normal' consciousness (when we are awake in the mundane sense) gives us the ability to interact with the outer physical world, along with being aware of our feelings (The ones the subconscious allows/filters through to our awaken state)

And the ultimate-consciousness is what lies behind the gateless gate that sits between the two...

An example of this is the 'present moment' (what we call the 'now') ....When one meditates and is focused upon ones breath-the subconscious and the conscious merge together creating an opening in the gateless gate ...

How wide this gate will open depends on the amount of "I/self" that is trying to look/peek through...It stays firmly closed if the I/self tries to force it open...However if the clinging grasping self/I has been disposed of, it opens wide to the ultimate consciousness/reality...

"What lies behind the gateless gate ?
The I/self is eager to see, it just can't wait-
But alas it must bid its time-
And meditate upon this thread & rhyme!"

So there you have it-in a nutshell the theory of everything and nothing...Something no doubt you already knew but what the heck... ;)

Remember none of this is gospel, it's just from my personal 'warped' experiences....

Metta Zenda :) 

Kia Ora,

Well now to re-thread the de-threaded thread (The eye is wide enough to allow de-threading and re-threading to take place with ease)

In a sense my personal beliefs about the world tend to bring both despair and comfort:

Despair in that everyday I see all the unnecessary suffering people constantly put them'selves' through-

But I'm comforted to know that they too have a way out of this cycle of suffering-

Through personal 'insight/experience' ( insight meditation) the  "scales" of Comfort and Despair are changing (Self adjusting)...bringing with this change an ever-present balance of 'contentment'...

Sadly at times it would seem people can't even be true to themselves...They don't know how to overcome personal suffering so they pretend to 'enjoy' it ...(If you can't beat it join it)

Matthieu Ricard (French Buddhist Monk) sums this up quite neatly in

"The Habits Of Happiness!" TEDTALK

"Some intellectuals say 'We don't care about being happy or contented, we need to live with passion-We like the ups and downs of life-We like suffering because...... it's so good when it ceases for a while !"

::) A touch of involuntary 'Sadomasochism' perhaps......Fortunately no-thing is permanent... 

Metta Zenda :)

Ugghhhh Kwuan Yin, I have always dislike the lable of "new age". I have always though that the way of thinking that I have is more old perceptions with a modern twist. ;) Take quartz crystals as an example. For ages these mystics lumps of heat and pressure tempered carbon were looked at with awe and admiration and some cultures have even used them for healing. Today we now that infinate amounts of data can be stored in minute amounts of quarts. If they can store data, what else might they do? A lot of books were written on the subject of past life regressions in the 90's and it was actually discovered in the 50's by mistake under hypnosis and was used as a cure for psychosematic illnesses but in a sort of hush hush capacity. Plenty of ancient religions saw reincarnation as a Spititual dynamic. If you look into it though, reincarnation was a dynamic of Spirituality in Christ's day, In the Gnostic Books and in the Bible. It just happened to disappear in the 6th century A.D. due to Emporess Theodora having a "god complex" and couldn't bear all of us "peasants" believing she would be punished for her trespasses to the common people. So, the dynamics of Karma and reincarnation disappeared. Remember, the Roman Empire pretty much ruled the whole world at that time. I pretty much assume that it was fairly easy to dupe and fool ancient man much like it is for modern man. For an example look to your politicians, from all sides, and religious leaders and you can see it's still happening.

So with that said, most of what I think, believe, study and so on comes from much older thought processes and belief systems but fit in my modern mind and perceptions. It just seems more natural and possible. Much like the myth of the Mayan Calender. In 1987 when I first heard about it, I started looking into it and learned what it really was and that is the end of one great age, 26,000 year cycle and the biginning of another 26,000 year cycle. I knew that we all weren't all gonna die, an asteroid slam into the earth or the sun was gonna explode, but that it has happened before and will happen again until the sun burns out.

Thanks for the new link.

Quote from: Jess42 on June 09, 2013, 12:27:04 PM
Ugghhhh Kwuan Yin, I have always dislike the lable of "new age"....... So, the dynamics of Karma and reincarnation disappeared. Remember, the Roman Empire pretty much ruled the whole world at that time. I pretty much assume that it was fairly easy to dupe and fool ancient man much like it is for modern man. For an example look to your politicians, from all sides, and religious leaders and you can see it's still happening.

Ouch! Pretty EuroCentric attitude. China (where the largest city in the world was) was actually doing great in the 6th century AD, The Mayan civilization was flourishing, need I go on?

But there's a lot of ruins in Mesopotamia!

Quote from: Jess42 on June 09, 2013, 12:27:04 PM
Ugghhhh Kwuan Yin, I have always dislike the lable of "new age". I have always though that the way of thinking that I have is more old perceptions with a modern twist. ;) Take quartz crystals as an example. For ages these mystics lumps of heat and pressure tempered carbon were looked at with awe and admiration and some cultures have even used them for healing. Today we now that infinate amounts of data can be stored in minute amounts of quarts. If they can store data, what else might they do? A lot of books were written on the subject of past life regressions in the 90's and it was actually discovered in the 50's by mistake under hypnosis and was used as a cure for psychosematic illnesses but in a sort of hush hush capacity. Plenty of ancient religions saw reincarnation as a Spititual dynamic. If you look into it though, reincarnation was a dynamic of Spirituality in Christ's day, In the Gnostic Books and in the Bible. It just happened to disappear in the 6th century A.D. due to Emporess Theodora having a "god complex" and couldn't bear all of us "peasants" believing she would be punished for her trespasses to the common people. So, the dynamics of Karma and reincarnation disappeared. Remember, the Roman Empire pretty much ruled the whole world at that time. I pretty much assume that it was fairly easy to dupe and fool ancient man much like it is for modern man. For an example look to your politicians, from all sides, and religious leaders and you can see it's still happening.

So with that said, most of what I think, believe, study and so on comes from much older thought processes and belief systems but fit in my modern mind and perceptions. It just seems more natural and possible. Much like the myth of the Mayan Calender. In 1987 when I first heard about it, I started looking into it and learned what it really was and that is the end of one great age, 26,000 year cycle and the biginning of another 26,000 year cycle. I knew that we all weren't all gonna die, an asteroid slam into the earth or the sun was gonna explode, but that it has happened before and will happen again until the sun burns out.

Thanks for the new link.

Kia Ora Jess,

My apologies regarding the "New Age" label...

::) However if you start to get a big following(people who find your thoughts on this matter 'enlightened' and start to 'pay' for this privilege) then the new age label sticks....(Only joking  ;) ;D )

You're welcome, I found the radio interview quite interesting...

And yes I had read somewhere that the head of the 'church had a meeting and decided to 'drop' the idea of reincarnation from it's books...

Metta Zenda :)

Kia Ora Jess,

You might also find this guy interesting...Re: Quantum Time: The Illusion of Past, Present and Future ft. Anthony Peake

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1ADH3SO3WQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1ADH3SO3WQ)

Metta Zenda

Quote from: Kuan Yin on June 09, 2013, 06:13:31 PM
Kia Ora Jess,

My apologies regarding the "New Age" label...

::) However if you start to get a big following(people who find your thoughts on this matter 'enlightened' and start to 'pay' for this privilege) then the new age label sticks....(Only joking  ;) ;D )

You're welcome, I found the radio interview quite interesting...

And yes I had read somewhere that the head of the 'church had a meeting and decided to 'drop' the idea of reincarnation from it's books...

Metta Zenda :)

Apology accepted on the new age label Kuan Yin. The term 'New Age' puts images of the Hippy movement in my mind and flowers make me sneeze. I am also more of a leather and lace type of girl than I am of the hemp clothing not to mention I hate hate hate hate going "au natural" with the body hair.;)

Don't worry about me and profit gains because somehow money seems to run away from me. I've done many paranormal investigations and have never charged a dime. Over 30 some odd years I have probably put out over 20,000 if not more dollars for equipment and software in order to do it. Technology becomes outdated in the blink of an eye and once you purchase something and use it for a year, something better comes along. Thank God thermal imaging equipment doesn't change like video recorders. Also don't worry about me having a following because most people think I need to be fitted for a straightjacket anyway. I love embracing insanity, it's so much more interesting than normalcy. 

I'm sure you're not going to be suprized but I find anything dealing with theories of time interesting.

Yes, the brain is programmed to seek out patterns but it really doesn't delegitimize the patterns or synchronisities though. It may be that we, unlike other animals, pecieve these patterns quicker and naturally due to our more advanced brains. In the paranormal world there is what is called matrixing. Matrixing is responsible for faces and or aparitions in windows, on mirrors or even with shadows and can be on pictures, video or seen with our own eyes. Usually with the eyes, the apparition will be there in one moment and then gone in another. Matrixing is responsible for a lot of pictures and video that is out in internetland. This happens because our brains are hardwired to recognize our own species and sometimes random shapes, patterns, shadows and so on fool the brain into seeing someone who is not there. A really good example of matrixing is the 3D picture amid a picture of random colors and shapes. You have to look past the 2D flat "noise" and unfocus your eyes and then you would see the 3D picture. I have chunked a lot of supposed evidence I have captured just because of the matrixing effect. I have to be 98% sure that the evidence I capture is possibly paranormal before I use it. There are no 100%s in paranormal investigation or parapsychology because there is always a 2% chance that it is a natural occurance that nobody knows about.

Quote from: vegie271 on June 09, 2013, 01:48:57 PM



Ouch! Pretty EuroCentric attitude. China (where the largest city in the world was) was actually doing great in the 6th century AD, The Mayan civilization was flourishing, need I go on?

Wow. Did I do or say something to offend you vegie271. If I did I apologize. If you have the need to be mean toward someone that is Spiritual, go ahead because we do need to drain the anger sometimes. If you are lumping everyone that is Spiritual together with the same that hurt you at one time or another, that isn't right. In that case you need to confront the ones that caused you the pain. It's OK though, I can be a verbal punching bag to anyone as long as they feel better afterwards.

People are all different and you can't hold a person responsible for something someone else did. If you are an atheist, that is fine. You will never see any judgement from me but make sure you don't exhibit the same negative emotions and actions toward others that others have shown toward you. Leaving the Spiritual aspect out of the equation and using plain old psychology. If someone treats you with contempt, what good is it for you to treat others with contemp. If someone shows you hate, discriminates against you, degrades you and so on, why treat another person the same way? We really shouldn't because we should treat everyone the way we want to be treated.

Please don't take this the wrong way but with all the far fetched, way out there, lunatic, way beyong the outer limit things that I posted on this thread, why attack my belief in a Creator and me writing that the Roman Empire ruled the world at the time? I'll be the first one to admit that some of the stuff I wrote sounds 100% insane. Anyway, like I said in an earlier post. I am sorry you were hurt on any level by "fundementalists" but not all Spiritualists are at fault. I myself have been trashed, thrashed, verbally abused, shunned and just about anything else by people across many spectrums, even Atheists. The truth is that it happens, the solution is not to let it effect you mentally. I have had one really bad thing happen but will not go into it here but I hold that one particular person alone responsible and no one else. One thing that I know for certain and without a doubt is that negativity breeds more negativity.

Quote from: Kuan Yin on June 07, 2013, 02:39:16 AM
Kia Ora Peky,

I don't know much about Judaism, (or Kabbalah the 'mystical' part of Judaism that you follow) so I did a bit of digging and found this on "Sheol" ...(Which sounds an awful lot like the Catholic purgatory) 

"Sheol in the OT, comparable to contemporary Greek Hades or the Babylonian underworlds, was a place where dead human beings were sent, to maintain their being in a diminished state. It was a place inferior to natural human life, but not one of punishment, per se. Virtue and sin did not enter into it; based on the OT, everybody went to Sheol."

"Hebrew word of uncertain etymology (see Sheol, Critical View), synonym of "bor" (pit), "abaddon" and "shaḥat" (pit or destruction), and perhaps also of "tehom" (abyss)."

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13563-sheol (http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13563-sheol)


Metta Zenda :)

Dear "Kia Ora,"

This link gives a more realitc view

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/beliefs/Theology/Afterlife_and_Messiah/Life_After_Death/Heaven_and_Hell.shtml?p=1 (http://www.myjewishlearning.com/beliefs/Theology/Afterlife_and_Messiah/Life_After_Death/Heaven_and_Hell.shtml?p=1)

Quote from: peky on June 10, 2013, 09:32:37 AM
Dear "Kia Ora,"

This link gives a more realitc view

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/beliefs/Theology/Afterlife_and_Messiah/Life_After_Death/Heaven_and_Hell.shtml?p=1 (http://www.myjewishlearning.com/beliefs/Theology/Afterlife_and_Messiah/Life_After_Death/Heaven_and_Hell.shtml?p=1)

Kia Ora Peky,

That's quite interesting...Thanks

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: kkut on June 10, 2013, 12:16:43 AM
We messed it up, why should she clean it up?  :D

Kia Ora Kkut,

::) That's what Mothers are for aren't they....Ie clearing up after their children ;) ;D

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Kuan Yin on May 24, 2013, 04:53:18 PM
Another example: A Moslem has a Christian friend who dies, according to other Christians this person's soul [if one believes in a soul ] will go to the Christian heaven, but according to the Moslem friend they will go where 'all' the non Muslims go...And visa versa if the Moslem friend dies etc, etc...

What I'm getting at is, when another person dies, they will end up going to a place according to what other people 'believe'  :angel: >:-) and nobody can prove anything different to counter their belief...

I also have been spiritual, seeking the ultimate meaning of my life. Since childhood, I have learned Judo-christianism, Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, and New Age. Also, as my grandmother on my mother's side was a shaman, my spiritual belief has been based on shamanism. There are still many shamans in S. Korea. Recently I was indulged in Korean traditional religions.

My belief is that, whatever you call, the God is the same. There have been various names to denote the Oneness, depending on culture, religion and time, but it is the one, anyway. It is childish to discriminate other people, simply because the concept and name of their god is a little bit different. It is like 'sun' in English, Sonne in German, '太陽' in Japanese, and soleil in French. They are the same sun, whatever you call it. In the case of Middle East, people tended to believe in a linear progress (e.g., the present world vs. Heaven); whereas people based on agriculture tended to believe in a cyclic world (e.g., reincarnation).

Nowadays, owing to the dazzling development of communication and transportation, people in the world become more connected and unified in their spiritual beliefs. In this changing world, closed mind and dogma will always conflict with other people and other religion, causing more instability and misery around the world.

Love and forgiveness is the universal virtue of our spiritual life, but doing it is not easy. The world is becoming bigger and more complex. I think we may need a new level of religion or teaching to accommodate all cultures and religions in the world.

barbie~~

Kuan Yin, to answer the original question. I was going to get around to it but wrote all the stuff to kind of give you my background of beliefs instead of just providing the answer.

My beliefs cause me despair because I have no support groups in the way of churches when it comes to Spiritual lows. When life gets hard or a traumatic event happens in one's life, a lot of people have the ability to go to church, talk to their pastor, preist, preacher or other head of their religion for comfort and or reinforcement of their beliefs. I don't have that option. I usually have to meditate longer, think harder or research more for answers.

On the other hand these same lonely beliefs have brought me comfort in that there is something beyond the material world, a somewhat understanding of the words infinity and eternity. It has allowed me to see others as not just walking talking sacks of meat with a skeletal structure but other uniques Spirits on their own paths. It allows me not to be judgemental of others. It allows me to see how life, no matter how insignificant it may seem such as a common housefly, is is an important equation even to ourselves. I won't kill another animal other than for food and self preservation. In either case I am very respectful because I understand that it was a life too. I even take spiders out of the house and put them in bushes instead of just squashing them. Same with mice but take them farther into woodsy areas. I also take comfort in believing that Spirituality is something that can't be comprehended with our limited brains which limits our minds at this time on our evolutionary ladder. I take comfort that , to me anyway, there seems to it than the commonly percepted principles that we have available to us at this time in our history. And provides me hope that eventually mankind will understand Spirituality whether I am here or not.

Kia Ora,

And thank you all for sharing your interesting beliefs...It's truly amazing how the brain works and what's lurking in the mind's eye...

"There's more to life than what meets the eye !"

And while we are on the subject please feel free to participate in a little poll I set up on "Telephone Telepathy"

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,142494.msg1160176/topicseen.html#msg1160176 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,142494.msg1160176/topicseen.html#msg1160176)

Metta Zenda :)