Susan's Place Transgender Resources

One Transwoman once told me:
"You have to be a woman first before you transition".
What do you think? Is transition, hrt, srs, ffs only correction of how i look like?

I think I see what she was trying to say.  If you have any doubt over who you are or what you want out of transitioning then you should hold off and work on those issues first that way you don't have regrets later.

Well, it depends on how one looks at it.  At the very least you should be certain that transitioning is right for you.  Whether you identify as a woman before or after, you should be prepared to live as one if you are going to transition and present as a female.   Some people can't see themselves as a woman until after they transition and some see themselves as one before.  So, I don't think that is a pre-requisite.  Nonetheless, you should be consider whether you'd like to live as girl for the rest of your life and if you'd be happy about that.  If not, then you should heavily consider whether transitioning is right for you.  One's overall happiness is all that matters in my opinion when deciding whether to transition. 

A girl is a human female that develops emotional and physical to be a woman, and in doing so more often than not she adopts the roles ascribe to her by the society she happens to live in.

Most of us reach a point in our lives -whether is at 4 or 65 years of age- that we cannot longer deny or hide our femaleness...we embrace our femaleness and then we transition

This extremely rule bound person says that is all BS!

If your definition of a 'Woman' is an anorexic fashion model.... well then maybe. If your definition is more like mine of seeing regular everyday women around you at the checkout line of the grocery store then you know women come in all shapes and sizes, all with varying degrees of 'Masculine' features.

They feel and know they are women.

I found during my struggle of taking on the T beast is that self confidence brought about by loosing the shame and guilt built up over years of trying to life up another standard can carry you further and all the $$$$ spent on surgeries. If you do need them to gain the confidence then OK.

The main point here is there is no universal 'Cook Book" path for every/anyone to follow. Like all things in life you need to find what works for you, keeping in mind there are no 'Magic pills' to fix things. It takes hard work and buckets of tears

In my simplistic view at the time, a woman IS female so I couldn't be a woman until then, as much as I felt I should have been a woman. With transition and SRS, I became a woman, though I still had a lot to learn and would develop a great deal as a woman in the following years.

@Anna!
"I think I see what she was trying to say.  If you have any doubt over who you are or what you want out of transitioning then you should hold off and work on those issues first that way you don't have regrets later."

Great advice, thank you! That is exactly what i am trying to do.

@learningtolive
"Nonetheless, you should be consider whether you'd like to live as girl for the rest of your life and if you'd be happy about that.  If not, then you should heavily consider whether transitioning is right for you."

Thank you, great post.

@Peky
"Most of us reach a point in our lives -whether is at 4 or 65 years of age- that we cannot longer deny or hide our femaleness...we embrace our femaleness and then we transition".


Thank you for your wonderful input.

To be or not be female is the question. What makes a person female? the body? The Feeling? The mindset?

@JoanneB

Definitely a great post, thank you very much for your input.

"The main point here is there is no universal 'Cook Book" path for every/anyone to follow. Like all things in life you need to find what works for you, keeping in mind there are no 'Magic pills' to fix things. It takes hard work and buckets of tears."

If i am a girl then i am just an average one, nothing special, just a girl in the wrong body.

@NorthernJane

i remember a wise lady from meow chat, that coined the term: Crosby, Stills, Nash and the talented one.
Referring to Neil Young. If i remember right this was you.

i feel honored that you answer me. You are wonderful. And you helped so many of us, with your gentle noble heart. And you see truth as you write:

"In my simplistic view at the time, a woman IS female so I couldn't be a woman until then, as much as I felt I should have been a woman. With transition and SRS, I became a woman, though I still had a lot to learn and would develop a great deal as a woman in the following years."

All i can say is to thank you.
Its great to be alive and to meet someone like you.

Yes that sounds about right. I mean if your a woman your just transitioning your body right? But if your not a woman and you transition your body into a woman's body this could cause problems I would think?

Quote from: learningtolive on June 10, 2013, 07:53:37 PM
Well, it depends on how one looks at it.  At the very least you should be certain that transitioning is right for you.  Whether you identify as a woman before or after, you should be prepared to live as one if you are going to transition and present as a female.   .

As so many posts on this forum attest, it is very difficult  to be certain that transitioning is the right path before actually starting to go down that path. Certainty, to the extent that anyone can be certain about anything in this world, comes with deep experience and that's why concepts like RLE exist. Furthemore, there are lot's of testimonials here and elsewhere indicating that even after transitioning physically, it takes serveral years of day to day life as a woman to really fully integrate the new reality.

I would therefore suggest that it is perfectly OK to take the first steps on the path to transition once one is reasonably sure that it is the right path eg. things like hair removal and HRT, but that is is highly advisable to avoid doing anything too radical like surgeries until the degree of confidence that it is indeed the corrct decision is high enough. Regarding this, I would further suggest that GRS should be the very, very last intervention anyone considers doing. 

My two "centimes" worth.
Donna

Quote from: Donna Elvira on June 11, 2013, 12:02:52 AM.... it is indeed the correct decision is high enough. Regarding this, I would further suggest that GRS should be the very, very last intervention anyone considers doing. 

Of course, for some of us, the decision to have surgery is no decision at all regardless of how unsure one is. As soon as it became available, I was gone! I was not going to survive long without it - barely made it at all. It was like being in a room that is on fire. When it gets hot enough, you WILL jump through that window without knowing what is on the other side!

One of the concepts that we need to understand is the spectrum of gender identity.

I've never had any hesitation in knowing I was female. That was never an issue. My problem was trying to pretend to be male.

It was how to get to the point I'm at now was the work. And the problems were country, era, money, circumstance.

Quote from: angelats on June 10, 2013, 10:45:36 PM
What makes a person female? the body? The Feeling? The mindset?

The emerging research data seems to indicate that a center(s) in the brain produces the innate self perception of being female, male, both male and female, and/or neither male nor female.

The dimorphism of the "gender" center(s) seems to be the results of genes and hormones during embryonic, fetal, and perinatal development.

Why  does this innate feeling is so fix and expressed so early in the lives of certain TG individuals, while in others during adolescents, adulthood, and even late adulhood remains to be explained. What makes some transgender folks bi-gender, gender fluid, or a-gender?

I believe the answers will be at hand in 10 or 15 years,,,maybe even sooner

It's so cool on how informed all of you are on this.

Quote from: peky on June 12, 2013, 07:46:29 PM
The emerging research data seems to indicate that a center(s) in the brain produces the innate self perception of being female, male, both male and female, and/or neither male nor female.

Long after the fact I often wondered why, as a child, I had such a strong and unshakable conviction that I WAS a girl, a conviction that was so strong that life had to "beat it out of me"! It took until age 8 to put any cracks in that identity and I later wondered how, as a child, I could have been so damned sure of who/what I was.

A few years ago I ran into a very politically-incorrect book "Why Gender Matters" by Dr. Leonard Sax, a book aimed at educators that talks about the differences in development between boys and girls. The book explains the different aspects of how the human brain and social skills develop at different point in time and in different directions throughout childhood and how boys and girls differ in their development paths.

The book answered my question about my own childhood identity. Of course I identified as a girl because my development was typically feminine and that  is also why all my close friends and playmates (up to age 8 ) were girls! It isn't because I hung around  with girls that I turned out feminine but because I was feminine (mentally and emotionally) that I hung around with girls!

Psychologists who deal with Intersex children have long been aware of developmental differences between the sexes and based recommendations on their observed behaviours but gender differences are not "politically correct" because where there is a difference, a great many people tend to label one as superior to the other rather than just accepting "different".

For those who deal with GD later in life, perhaps it is connected to shifting hormone levels?

Quote from: Northern Jane on June 13, 2013, 05:39:49 AM
Long after the fact I often wondered why, as a child, I had such a strong and unshakable conviction that I WAS a girl, a conviction that was so strong that life had to "beat it out of me"! It took until age 8 to put any cracks in that identity and I later wondered how, as a child, I could have been so damned sure of who/what I was.

A few years ago I ran into a very politically-incorrect book "Why Gender Matters" by Dr. Leonard Sax, a book aimed at educators that talks about the differences in development between boys and girls. The book explains the different aspects of how the human brain and social skills develop at different point in time and in different directions throughout childhood and how boys and girls differ in their development paths.

The book answered my question about my own childhood identity. Of course I identified as a girl because my development was typically feminine and that  is also why all my close friends and playmates (up to age 8 ) were girls! It isn't because I hung around  with girls that I turned out feminine but because I was feminine (mentally and emotionally) that I hung around with girls!

Psychologists who deal with Intersex children have long been aware of developmental differences between the sexes and based recommendations on their observed behaviours but gender differences are not "politically correct" because where there is a difference, a great many people tend to label one as superior to the other rather than just accepting "different".

For those who deal with GD later in life, perhaps it is connected to shifting hormone levels?

I think there is some truth in the shifting hormone levels but also one of the major factors in my mind is the availability of information.
I am seeing increasing numbers of young people question and address their gender (and separate issue) their sexuality. They have access to the IT and the information and resources are there for them, in private, in confidence,. They don't have to break down in front of their family and beg for why they are different. Although I acknowledge the problems many have in coming out to family.

When I realised I was being brought up in the wrong gender no one had information, I had no access to information. My access was my parents and they had no understanding at all.

My primary source of information was pornography - and I think we all know how well trans* issues are addressed in pornography.

Now we have sites like Susan's, we have access to WPATH, ANZPATH etc, we have wiki information and it is still damn hard.

As I have said before and Jane also has said, I have always known I was female, but the process to allow me to be me was not available. We advise people to consult a therapist, when I was growing up there were no such people as gender therapists. If you were engaging in homosexual acts - no matter your gender - you were sent to jail. Great!!

Let us remember, in the recent past rock stars and movie stars could not come out as Gay without destroying their careers. Nowadays it is almost compulsory :laugh:. True that in some parts of the world it is still a crime against humanity but in civilized countries it isn't.

You have to be a woman first before you transition is the title of the thread. To be blunt would anyone choose this path if they didn't need to?

Cindy

Quote from: Cindy. on June 13, 2013, 06:19:13 AM
You have to be a woman first before you transition is the title of the thread. To be blunt would anyone choose this path if they didn't need to?

Cindy

Not blunt at all. Sharply focused like a LASER beam.

Quote from: Donna Elvira on June 11, 2013, 12:02:52 AM
As so many posts on this forum attest, it is very difficult  to be certain that transitioning is the right path before actually starting to go down that path. Certainty, to the extent that anyone can be certain about anything in this world, comes with deep experience and that's why concepts like RLE exist. Furthemore, there are lot's of testimonials here and elsewhere indicating that even after transitioning physically, it takes serveral years of day to day life as a woman to really fully integrate the new reality.

I would therefore suggest that it is perfectly OK to take the first steps on the path to transition once one is reasonably sure that it is the right path eg. things like hair removal and HRT, but that is is highly advisable to avoid doing anything too radical like surgeries until the degree of confidence that it is indeed the corrct decision is high enough. Regarding this, I would further suggest that GRS should be the very, very last intervention anyone considers doing. 

My two "centimes" worth.
Donna

I have to disagree with this to some degree.  Sure it's hard to know for a fact whether it is definitely the right thing.  Some people need to have more experience before they can assess for a fact that they are making the right choice.  That I'm in agreement with.  However, I think it is problematic to start hrt before knowing what you want to do. The problem with starting things like hrt without being fairly confident or certain of one's path is that you are making permanent changes to your body.  Wouldn't you want to feel as confident as possible before doing that?  I know this is something I thought about in great detail.   Overall it was an easy decision, but not one I made very lightly.  I guess I'll never fully know if this is the right choice until I live and experiences more as I go on.  Yet, I feel confident in my decision and would never have gone forward and started hrt if I didn't.  Everyone's different, but I really think people should be careful before starting to transition.  It's not an easy path and should be avoided unless one needs it or really wants to do it.   Maybe I'm a little too conservative with this, but I think that is the best way to go about it.

Quote from: learningtolive on June 15, 2013, 09:54:44 AM
I have to disagree with this to some degree.  Sure it's hard to know for a fact whether it is definitely the right thing.  Some people need to have more experience before they can assess for a fact that they are making the right choice.  That I'm in agreement with.  However, I think it is problematic to start hrt before knowing what you want to do. The problem with starting things like hrt without being fairly confident or certain of one's path is that you are making permanent changes to your body.  Wouldn't you want to feel as confident as possible before doing that?  I know this is something I thought about in great detail.   Overall it was an easy decision, but not one I made very lightly.  I guess I'll never fully know if this is the right choice until I live and experiences more as I go on.  Yet, I feel confident in my decision and would never have gone forward and started hrt if I didn't.  Everyone's different, but I really think people should be careful before starting to transition.  It's not an easy path and should be avoided unless one needs it or really wants to do it.   Maybe I'm a little too conservative with this, but I think that is the best way to go about it.

Yeah but if you are too conservative with it you put off transitioning for years, losing all kinds of time and being depressed for no reason. If you start HRT and it is not right, you will know fairly quickly. And certainly by the time you lose some erectile functioning. By the time that happens in the first couple months, all changes are prob reversible but you might have small moobs. Not exactly the end of the world as I managed to pass as male with B cups for years and years. Had sex lots and had GFs and BFs.

Joanna I think your right. the younger you start the more fun you can have and maybe the less depression... at least in theory ;)

I just knew... I had to go down this road. It was never a difficult decision for me, and I didn't have to think about it twice.

Kyh. That's the ideal situation . Whenever you can be so sure of something as if its second hand nature that makes it easy. I wish everyone was as lucky in there decisions

Quote from: Joanna Dark on June 15, 2013, 01:03:03 PM
Yeah but if you are too conservative with it you put off transitioning for years, losing all kinds of time and being depressed for no reason. If you start HRT and it is not right, you will know fairly quickly. And certainly by the time you lose some erectile functioning. By the time that happens in the first couple months, all changes are prob reversible but you might have small moobs. Not exactly the end of the world as I managed to pass as male with B cups for years and years. Had sex lots and had GFs and BFs.

Not everything is completely reversible.  Also, it depends how long someone is on it.  Plus, they may have come out to people without really knowing whether this was the right move.  Coming out can cause relationships to change and you need to be prepared that things in ones life will be altered in a major way.  This may be the right path for a lot of us, but it isn't for everyone.  While it can make many people happy, it can also make people more depressed. There are plenty of trans people that are on the fence about transitioning and there are plenty of people who are confused about their identity.  Isn't it better for them to do the proper self analysis before going through with it?  Transitioning is a major decision and should be made with lots of consideration.  I'm not saying one should be 100 percent sure. I think Donna does have a great point about RLE being an important test to verify ones feelings and assuage any doubts. However,  one should at least be fairly confident that this is right for them.  If there are major doubts or concerns, hrt should probably be avoided until these feelings are clear.   But that's just my personal opinion.

Yeah. I always thought the same thing. It's like people are scared to take the big leap. I try to understand where everyone else is coming from but it's tough. I don't have the experience with life that they do. To build a life and family and have to give it all up or possible lose it all

Quote from: learningtolive on June 15, 2013, 09:54:44 AM
I have to disagree with this to some degree.  Sure it's hard to know for a fact whether it is definitely the right thing.  Some people need to have more experience before they can assess for a fact that they are making the right choice.  That I'm in agreement with.  However, I think it is problematic to start hrt before knowing what you want to do. The problem with starting things like hrt without being fairly confident or certain of one's path is that you are making permanent changes to your body.  Wouldn't you want to feel as confident as possible before doing that?  I know this is something I thought about in great detail.   Overall it was an easy decision, but not one I made very lightly.  I guess I'll never fully know if this is the right choice until I live and experiences more as I go on.  Yet, I feel confident in my decision and would never have gone forward and started hrt if I didn't.  Everyone's different, but I really think people should be careful before starting to transition.  It's not an easy path and should be avoided unless one needs it or really wants to do it.   Maybe I'm a little too conservative with this, but I think that is the best way to go about it.

I think we are saying very much the same thing Learning to Live.  Of course I was fairly sure I was doing the right thing when I started HRT but certain, definitely not.  Based on my  own experience, I also disagree with you completely about the permanent changes to the body, at least at first.

For example, I personally operated stop-go on HRT for the better part of two years before finally deciding that yes, I was going to go down this path. Among other things, this particular experience allows me to say with a relatively high degree of confidence that there is almost nothing irreversible about 3 - 4 months HRT. For example,  during the 2 year stop and go period, I probably got to Tanner 2 and even Tanner 3 each time before stopping and every time I did this, the breast growth disappeared more or less completely within a few weeks. I may have damaged my fertility but, even if it mattered to me (it didn't), I would also be very dubious about that as I personally know someone who was on HRT for years before detransitioning and conceiving a child.  Interestingly, this person retransitioned again several  years later which also sort of shows that for many people, "deciding" on transition is anything but black and white.

In your own case, reading all of your posts, I am tempted to say that yes, you probably are very conservative or at least cautious in the way you go about things and I have no problem with that. I am actually pretty cautious too in my own way but beyond a certain point, which is no doubt different for all of us, I believe experience always beats theorizing.

In my own case, having been born a biological male with little to no visible evidence that anything was amiss (there was some though..), having lived most of my life as a male, including fathering three kids, even now I have difficulty saying "I am a woman" in the way Cindy says it. 

This is probably also down to five years university studies in life sciences which make me  very conscious of the some of the intrinsic biological differences between males and females. I always have a little voice in the back of my mind telling me that I can never "be a woman" in the same way as a genetic  female can live this reality.

However, I can say without any doubt that I have always identified very strongly with everything feminine and this from as early as I can remember. Like so many others , I had to repress this feeling for years, letting nothing show to others,  but it never went away and got considerably stronger as I hit my mid-forties. 

Following a divorce from my first wife, I had the space necessary to explore this feeling a lot more and between practical experimentation concerning my identity and vastly improved access to information regarding GID , I gradually gained much deeper understanding and acceptance of  who I was and what I could actually do about it.  Just to make things clear and how cautious I was, I regained my freedom end 1999 and didn't start HRT until 2008.

Even then though, as explained above, when I started HRT, it was at least as much about confirming my gut feeling as it was about any certainty  that I was making the right decision. Among others, this partially explains why I went back and forwards a few times but there were also just the practical issues raised by so many others here ie. trying to live with breasts while still operating completely as a guy in all aspects of my life.

Interestingly, several  years of HRT has strongly reinforced my feeling of "being a woman".  Apart from the obvious physical changes, the way I perceive things has changed quite radically over the last few years . I listen far more, am far more sensitive  and emotional  and my tastes have evolved considerably in areas from food  I like to eat through to choices for entertainment and the activities I engage in to stay fit. 

All of this leaves me with  the impression that, with HRT, my brain is being rewired  little by little. The good thing is that I am much happier with the persona  who has emerged from this process than the persona I presented as prior to starting this journey.

Also, as an aside comment, living this experience through my own body has left me more skeptical than ever about the idea that social conditioning is the only driver behind gender behaviours...

All of that was about  the certainty of  "being a woman before you transition".   On top of my conviction that for most of us, such certainty can only come through practical experience, there are loads of other  practical issues which will influence the decision to take the plunge or not:  family, friends, job etc...The constraints we are facing on such issues are also very different. For me, job security is now the biggest issue, but it is almost a life or death issue so that also gives pause for thought.

At the end  though, some day or another, in spite of all the uncertainty, to find out if transitioning is right for you, there is simply no alternative  to taking the plunge and testing the ground.

On that particular subject, did I pick up in one of your recent posts that you will be coming out to your mother tomorrow?  If yes, while I am pretty "certain"    :) that all will go fine, wishing you the very best of luck.
Bises
Donna

wait so you can be transsexual and not transition? but wouldn't you still be really depressed or something if you did not. most likely leading up to suicide? i always thought to be transsexual meant you had to transition or you would be self destructive and depression/ suicide and all that stuff...
wo..... learn somethin new every day

Quote from: Tristan on June 15, 2013, 03:02:02 PM
wait so you can be transsexual and not transition? but wouldn't you still be really depressed or something if you did not. most likely leading up to suicide? i always thought to be transsexual meant you had to transition or you would be self destructive and depression/ suicide and all that stuff...
wo..... learn somethin new every day

Not always Tristen. Some of us can go back and forth for a while. Pretty much I would say it's up to the individual and comfort levels and so on. But on the other hand, if I knew then what I know now I would have made different choices. When I was 20 I really didn't have a clue what I would feel 20 years down the road. So both sides really have strong points.

Quote from: Tristan on June 15, 2013, 03:02:02 PM
wait so you can be transsexual and not transition? but wouldn't you still be really depressed or something if you did not. most likely leading up to suicide? i always thought to be transsexual meant you had to transition or you would be self destructive and depression/ suicide and all that stuff...
wo..... learn somethin new every day

Circumstances differ between individuals.  I think there are plenty of trans people here on the forum who have decided not to transition.  If it works for them, that's great.  It's all about finding our individual path.  I, however, feel the need to transition.

Quote from: Donna Elvira on June 15, 2013, 02:54:18 PM

On that particular subject, did I pick up in one of your recnt posts that you will be coming out to your mother tomorrow?  If yes, while I am pretty "certain"    :) that all will go fine, wishing you the very best of luck.
Bises
Donna

Well, I'm actually doing it on Thursday now.  I have a whole plan.  My sister has been driving me crazy about coming out, but it needs to be done a certain way.  So Thursday is the day.   Thank you for the wishes. :)

Quote from: learningtolive on June 15, 2013, 03:18:46 PM
Circumstances differ between individuals.  I think there are plenty of trans people here on the forum who have decided not to transition.  If it works for them, that's great.  It's all about finding our individual path.  I, however, feel the need to transition.

Well, I'm actually doing it on Thursday now.  I have a whole plan.  My sister has been driving me crazy about coming out, but it needs to be done a certain way.  So Thursday is the day.   Thank you for the wishes. :)

You'll do great, Learningtolive. Your family will accept you. I can just feel it.

Be brave. :)

Quote from: Tristan on June 15, 2013, 03:02:02 PM
wait so you can be transsexual and not transition? but wouldn't you still be really depressed or something if you did not. most likely leading up to suicide? i always thought to be transsexual meant you had to transition or you would be self destructive and depression/ suicide and all that stuff...
wo..... learn somethin new every day

Hi Tristan,
Rejection and destition are also more or less guaranteed to take you down the route to depression or worse. Surviving in the real world always requires trade-off and compromises. Happily, in many places, society is evolving in a manner which makes these trade-offs less painful than before but it still varies a lot from place to place and for each person based on individual circomstances.
Warm regards.
Donna

Quote from: kyh on June 15, 2013, 03:20:09 PM
You'll do great, Learningtolive. Your family will accept you. I can just feel it.

Be brave. :)

Thank you.  My sister was awesome about it and she told me everyone else will be the same.  If not, she said she would fight for me and make everyone come on board.  Hopefully it will go well.

Quote from: learningtolive on June 15, 2013, 03:53:38 PM
Thank you.  My sister was awesome about it and she told me everyone else will be the same.  If not, she said she would fight for me and make everyone come on board.  Hopefully it will go well.

What a wonderful sister. So strong. Like you.

<3

I really don't buy into that idea. I wasn't a woman before I transitioned and honestly, I really won't say I am one now. Most of the time, I feel like some kind of freak actually.  I do know what I would like others to see me as and for the most part they do or they humour me at least, which I can deal with most days if that's the best I can get.

Quote from: Renee on June 15, 2013, 04:09:16 PM
I really don't buy into that idea. I wasn't a woman before I transitioned and honestly, I really won't say I am one now. Most of the time, I feel like some kind of freak actually.  I do know what I would like others to see me as and for the most part they do or they humour me at least, which I can deal with most days if that's the best I can get.

You're not a freak :)

Even if you don't see yourself as a woman, you're not a freak. :angel:

Quote from: Renee on June 15, 2013, 04:09:16 PM
I really don't buy into that idea. I wasn't a woman before I transitioned and honestly, I really won't say I am one now. Most of the time, I feel like some kind of freak actually.  I do know what I would like others to see me as and for the most part they do or they humour me at least, which I can deal with most days if that's the best I can get.

I understand that feeling.  I've gone through feeling like a freak and still do to some degree.  I'm working on getting over this with my therapist, but it is complicated for me.  Having said that, please realize that the only person thinking that you are a freak is yourself.  We get so scared of being ourselves that ultimately we build this negative view on what being trans is.  In our heads, acting like our true self is a sin or horrible crime.  In reality, no one notices or cares too much.  Some may, but they aren't as numerous as one might think.

Quote from: learningtolive on June 15, 2013, 02:23:15 PM
Not everything is completely reversible.  Also, it depends how long someone is on it.  Plus, they may have come out to people without really knowing whether this was the right move.  Coming out can cause relationships to change and you need to be prepared that things in ones life will be altered in a major way.  This may be the right path for a lot of us, but it isn't for everyone.  While it can make many people happy, it can also make people more depressed. There are plenty of trans people that are on the fence about transitioning and there are plenty of people who are confused about their identity.  Isn't it better for them to do the proper self analysis before going through with it?  Transitioning is a major decision and should be made with lots of consideration.  I'm not saying one should be 100 percent sure. I think Donna does have a great point about RLE being an important test to verify ones feelings and assuage any doubts. However,  one should at least be fairly confident that this is right for them.  If there are major doubts or concerns, hrt should probably be avoided until these feelings are clear.   But that's just my personal opinion.

Hi again,
I think there is some confusion in your post between starting a transition and coming out. To all intents and purposes, I started my transition in 2008. However, apart from wife, I didn't come out to anyone until I starting making some really visible changes ie. FFS in July 2011.  By then, I was already far more certain about wanting to go down this path but even then, as I only did upper face FFS, I had  left myself a get out of jail card.  The most obvious change after my upper face FFS was to my nose and around my eyes and I explained this  to most people by simply telling them I had done a rhino to change a nose I had always hated. As it was quite a honker  :), it was a very easy sell.

Overall, beyond the people who are really close to me, wife and kids and a few very close friends, I didn't come out to anyone until I was sure I could pass comfortably as a woman and that wasn't until after my lower face FFS in August 2012. In my mind, my credibility presenting as a woman has been key part of a transition which has so far gone pretty well even if I had a major scare workwise.  My kids, for example are already OK with presenting me to their friends.

As it happens, I made up my mind quite some time ago that the only way I could sucessfully transition was by insuring that I was first being spontaneously clocked female by most people most of the time.  For me, if that wasn't the case, I was heading straight into a brick wall, trying to swim too much against the current.

That's also what I mean when I talk about taking the plunge and actually doing all the things necessary to get to where you want to be, even if there is very little certainty beforehand about where it is going to get you. I would also suggest that you try to give yourself as much room to manoeuver as possible along the way as even the best plans tend to come unstuck when confronted with reality.
Bises
Donna

Quote from: Tristan on June 15, 2013, 03:02:02 PM
wait so you can be transsexual and not transition? but wouldn't you still be really depressed or something if you did not. most likely leading up to suicide?

Transsexual...a word with no true meaning...a derogatory word coined by ignorant people...

I was a female since I can remember....I was not free to express my gender or change my body to match my mind for various reasons....I was not happy with the situation...but certainly not "depressed."

I had to live in the male role for many decades...and well along the way I enjoyed life...I strived to touch other people lives in a meaningful way...

How would my life have been different if I had transition in my early 20's? Who knows. Personally I do not care to think about...

All I can say is life has been good to me..and the best is yet to come

im sorry i did not mean to offend anyone. those are all big consequences mentioned earlier when it comes to transition. 

Quote from: Tristan on June 15, 2013, 03:02:02 PM
wait so you can be transsexual and not transition? but wouldn't you still be really depressed or something if you did not. most likely leading up to suicide? i always thought to be transsexual meant you had to transition or you would be self destructive and depression/ suicide and all that stuff...
wo..... learn somethin new every day

In my case I need to transition, I don't believe that I could honestly go on without doing it.

Quote from: Naomi on June 15, 2013, 08:52:59 PM
In my case I need to transition, I don't believe that I could honestly go on without doing it.

thats what i was starting to think from some of the post i have seen on this site the past 2 years. at first i thought it was doctors who decided you had to transition then i thought it was a need to do thing or people died. idk what to think now though from what everyone is saying? ???

Quote from: Tristan on June 15, 2013, 09:19:22 PM
thats what i was starting to think from some of the post i have seen on this site the past 2 years. at first i thought it was doctors who decided you had to transition then i thought it was a need to do thing or people died. idk what to think now though from what everyone is saying? ???

All transsexual people have some amount of dysphoria, but not all of them have dysphoria that's strong enough that they need to transition. Though sometimes they have circumstances in their life that prevent them transitioning, even if they really want to. So yeah, not all transsexuals transition. :)

wow. I grew up not even understanding that there was such things as transgender, I knew i was not normal but associated that with being gay and knew I was not that. I know differently now, but i had obligations so I built up a real male personna and kept my secret. i still hide it but its harder and harder.

Quote from: Renee on June 15, 2013, 04:09:16 PM
I really don't buy into that idea. I wasn't a woman before I transitioned and honestly, I really won't say I am one now. Most of the time, I feel like some kind of freak actually.  I do know what I would like others to see me as and for the most part they do or they humour me at least, which I can deal with most days if that's the best I can get.

I can relate with this as well...I never felt that feeling of a woman trapped in a mans body!! I think because I reluctantly accepted my fate....I can honestly say after two years of living legally as a woman I am a woman "now" ...the difference still being that I am not to the point of saying only the words "I am a woman"

The last two years has made me the woman I never knew I was or could be....these last two years have been nothing like I had imagined years ago when constantly being tormented of feeling I needed to be the person I  thought I was...the last two years has instead shown me I always that person.

I only feel like a freak if I let myself!!! and most days I like who I am now!!!

I know what she is trying to imply, I think most of us do. There will always be some doubt for me till I go through with it though. This is because my GID seems to be more mild than many transwomen who make a full transition.

-My GID started when I was about 6 as opposed to being present in the earliest memories of most transsexual people.
-I believe that my GID was caused somewhat by nurture (but being in my nature as well); an absence of other men through most of my life, being raised by women, and with my father abandoning my mother and me when I was 3 months or so. This is at odds with what most people believe, in that being transsexual is 100% nature caused.
-Most people feel so strongly compelled to begin transition before they reach their mid 20s and yet it took what amounts to a mid life crisis to force me out of the closet.
-Correct me if I am wrong, but one of the key symptoms of GID is cross dressing. While I don't have a problem with other people doing it, I personally couldn't due to my philosophy: I want to dress in clothes that look good on me, and I don't think I (a lanky 5'10" guy) would look good in women's clothing. If I take hormones,  fill out, maybe get some FFS, then that's a completely different story.

I could go on, but I'd rather focus on what would really make me happy. Would living as a woman for the rest of my life make me happy? Hell yes. I've been a man for a while and I really can't do it anymore. Everything feels backwards. The more people I tell about my issues, the better I feel and the more support I get. I'm lucky in that regard. All I need to do is talk to a professional to help me figure out who I really am and how far I should expect to go to feel comfortable. Not that I expect them to plan the route for me but to guide me through my journey. I hope I have helped you.

Hi,

So one needes to be a woman before one transitions,

. well try this,   i did not transtion from male to female or female to male.
was not posiable ether way. i did not live as a woman because i had not grown into being a woman.  i did not live as a woman to find out if i could live the rest of my life as one, or be accepted in to  ( my )  a  womens world,

The real life liveing of two years or what ever,  why, did not  need to & more to the point would not,

You see some of us are different , in many aspects of our life, hormones mind Emotions & how we are wired or put to gether,

Now what does  need to be a woman mean before trantsion  what is a woman first off, & how does one become one,

From where i stand . im a female not compleat in all aspects im missing my womb so that being the case am i then not a female,  you may answer that. , though you need more info. yes im female a intersexed female, born wrong  , well maybe not depends on how you see it,

Am i a woman my peers say so from thier point of view nothing to do with me or at my telling them i am,  this is how they see percive & understand me, & accept who i am,   now my hormones are mixed & changes took place 20 years ago well started  from then,   i have grown  into a woman, nothing i did, or tryed to do it all came natrualy ,

Yes iv had corrective surgerys that even did not make me a woman.  though wonderfull going through, another story,

before birth at conception as it is i was programed as female thats were it starts,  now there can & are differences to ones body just because we are female does not mean all aspects of  our body is female mine was not hence being intersexed, both male / female.  now how much will depend on many factors, too many to go through here,

Now can one be a woman before or after one transtions  depends  on the person & no one can answer that & have every one the same what happens to one will be very different for another,

say a 16 year old would she be counted as a woman or even a 12 year old what about a 70 year old,  in your thinking a 70 year old man decide's he wonts to  live as a women well like one, & have surgerys,  you need to look beyound the SQ or box,

for some its imposiable & will never happen  because there are some girls who never become women  again many reasons.

one size will never ever fit every one,

...noeleena...

Quote from: Gene24 on June 17, 2013, 11:10:48 PM
I know what she is trying to imply, I think most of us do. There will always be some doubt for me till I go through with it though. This is because my GID seems to be more mild than many transwomen who make a full transition.

My level of gender dysphoria is so low as to be almost non-existent - it hasn't prevented me transitioning..

Quote-My GID started when I was about 6 as opposed to being present in the earliest memories of most transsexual people.

I didn't know what was up until I was 12.

Quote-I believe that my GID was caused somewhat by nurture (but being in my nature as well); an absence of other men through most of my life, being raised by women, and with my father abandoning my mother and me when I was 3 months or so. This is at odds with what most people believe, in that being transsexual is 100% nature caused.

That's fine, beleive what you want. :) The admittedly limited research doesn't agree.

Quote-Most people feel so strongly compelled to begin transition before they reach their mid 20s and yet it took what amounts to a mid life crisis to force me out of the closet.

Most of the people I know who are transitioning are 30+ - myself included. I think the younger crowd are just better at shameless self-promotion, so we tend to notice them more.. :P

Quote-Correct me if I am wrong, but one of the key symptoms of GID is cross dressing. While I don't have a problem with other people doing it, I personally couldn't due to my philosophy: I want to dress in clothes that look good on me, and I don't think I (a lanky 5'10" guy) would look good in women's clothing. If I take hormones,  fill out, maybe get some FFS, then that's a completely different story.

The key symptom of Gender Dysphoria is the persistent feeling that one's physical gender and mental gender are mismatched.

Cross dressing is a coping mechanism for some, no more, no less.. It's not a symptom. 

QuoteI could go on, but I'd rather focus on what would really make me happy. Would living as a woman for the rest of my life make me happy? Hell yes. I've been a man for a while and I really can't do it anymore. Everything feels backwards. The more people I tell about my issues, the better I feel and the more support I get. I'm lucky in that regard. All I need to do is talk to a professional to help me figure out who I really am and how far I should expect to go to feel comfortable. Not that I expect them to plan the route for me but to guide me through my journey. I hope I have helped you.

You seem to think the 'standard trans narrative' is some kind of gospel - it's not. I'm not even convinced that it's true for any one.

We all follow our pwn paths, we all have our own truths. If this has been your journey, it's just as valid as any other - even if it's not the same.

Quote from: Kelly the Trans-Rebel on June 18, 2013, 03:41:37 AMYou seem to think the 'standard trans narrative' is some kind of gospel - it's not. I'm not even convinced that it's true for any one.

You have to remember that the standard transsexual narrative originated in the 1950s and 60s when the only ones who "came out" were the most severely afflicted and coming out was an act of absolute desperation. Even "coming out" was a bit of a misnomer because the vast majority of these young people had never been "in" - they had never fit their birth gender and their 'difference' was obvious to everyone around them. Their number were very small - in the informal network of the day I knew only about a dozen in the whole population of the Great Lakes and eastern seaboard - and the thing that struck me was how nearly everyone had the same life story even in the days before transsexualism was talked about in the media.

Times have changed a great deal since then.

Quote from: Tristan on June 15, 2013, 07:19:45 PM
im sorry i did not mean to offend anyone. those are all big consequences mentioned earlier when it comes to transition.

You didn't offend me in the least. I guess I am more genderfluid or bigender or whatever else. In my perfect world I would be free to express both at the same time. I can kind of sorta' do that now at certain times without any negative consequences but not during everyday life though.

Quote from: Northern Jane on June 18, 2013, 06:54:09 AM
You have to remember that the standard transsexual narrative originated in the 1950s and 60s when the only ones who "came out" were the most severely afflicted and coming out was an act of absolute desperation. Even "coming out" was a bit of a misnomer because the vast majority of these young people had never been "in" - they had never fit their birth gender and their 'difference' was obvious to everyone around them. Their number were very small - in the informal network of the day I knew only about a dozen in the whole population of the Great Lakes and eastern seaboard - and the thing that struck me was how nearly everyone had the same life story even in the days before transsexualism was talked about in the media.

Times have changed a great deal since then.

Hello Northern Jane

It's amazing what you all have gone through then only to become who and what you were to destined to be. I still consider transition one of the toughest things a person can do in a life time.
And you were the first then, when there was hardly understanding nor knowledge, but trial and error.
We all owe much to all of you, thank you.

"how nearly everyone had the same life story ..." I explain this to me, that they have to come to terms with what and who they were in the "in the 1950s and 60s ". And yes, i agree with you, those 
"were the most severely afflicted and coming out was an act of absolute desperation".

"Times have changed a great deal since then." Yes, and is still changing.

with kind regards
Angelats

Quote from: Kelly the Trans-Rebel on June 18, 2013, 03:41:37 AM
You seem to think the 'standard trans narrative' is some kind of gospel - it's not. I'm not even convinced that it's true for any one.

Hello Kelly i agree.

I thought a lot about the 'standard trans narrative' . This narrative has its function, for example to transition, to understand what one is, that you are not alone and so on.

I tried to analyze my transsexual self perception mostly not in genetic, biological psychological terms and methods. I prefer some kind of anthropological, philosophical explanation of transsexuality.
Although i see genetics, biology and psychology as very valuable resource to recognize
what a human is and how a human reacts.

For example i do not know, whether i had a hormonal imbalance before birth, that made me this way. This would be some kind of biological explanation, but as long i have not the hard evidence this happened in my life, its some kind of act of faith, to suggest this as cause for my transsexual feelings.
Its just a theory, that does not convince me.

We all have our experiences and we have to figure it out what it means  to us.
A 'standard trans narrative' may help us to come to terms with what and who we are.
But i also do think we have to consider our unique, personal, specific experiences,
that differ from the 'standard trans narrative'.

With kind regards
Angelats

Ladies ladies lets just say transsexual means to be really cool and sparkle awesomeness

Quote from: Tristan on June 18, 2013, 02:57:48 PM
Ladies ladies lets just say transsexual means to be really cool and sparkle awesomeness

<3

I don't get the hostility to the trans narrative.  If it doesn't fit you, that's cool.  However, it is applicable to some of us.  While we all deviate in some way, that doesn't make any of our experiences less genuine than anyone else.  My experience fits in line with elements of the trans narrative, but does differ to some extent as well.  I know some people that it explains there overall experience and others that it doesn't at all.  Is it fair to say one or all of us are lying?  Perhaps we all have diverse lives and had different circumstances to face.  I don't like anyone trying to argue that one side is more relevant or honest than the other.  I think that's an unfair way to categorize the experiences of other's.  Let's respect one another here and cherish our diversity. :)

Quote from: kyh on June 18, 2013, 03:40:56 PM
I think the danger of having a standard trans narrative is that there will be some transgender people who see this narrative, but don't see themselves or their own experiences in it, and so they feel that because they're not like so and so, they're not really trans. That's how I felt for a long long time. All the media I saw about trans people wasn't anything like myself. I never played with dolls, I never tried on my mom's clothes or her makeup, I never had any early memories of wanting to be a girl... Nobody helped me understand my feelings, and the standard trans narrative pushed me farther and farther away from my true path. In fact I felt alienated by all those documentaries of those young transgender girls who knew they were trans before they could walk and talk. I was so different from them. And they were all that I knew to be trans; they were the standard I never lived up to. Luckily I discovered this forum otherwise I'd have gone on living my life as a depressed, confused gay man.

I see what you mean.  My experience is an altered version of the trans narrative, but overall I feel it can be applied to me. I was a weird bigendered kid until I really understood what I was feeling around 10-11.  Nonetheless, I think your experience and that of other's here is just as valid.  I just hate when people say, "to be trans you need this to have happened or feel like this when you were 6".  We are all different.  I think we need to be more accepting of the diversity within our own community.  Unfortunately, some of the proponents of the trans narrative try to target other's as "not as trans", and some of those who hate the narrative try to say the other side is fabricating their experience.  I feel this is unfair and does us all a disservice.  I feel we can all educate each other without invalidating the experiences of others. 

In any event, I think we are on the same page here, just vocalizing it differently.  The great thing about this site is that we are all so different in many ways.  I love that because total homogeneity can be quite boring.

I agree 100% :)

I would like to see more diverse stories of trans people emerging, so that all trans people will be able to understand that there's no one way to be trans, and that they really can be trans without fitting into the trans narrative.

So by request I guess this qualifies as a weird trans narrative?

As a child I did play with dolls and I role played as female when I played imagination games with my friends. However I picked up the fact that boys were not supposed to play with dolls and stopped. Not once did I ever think to myself as a child that I was not a boy. Though I did often try on my mom clothes. Otherwise I was seen by everyone, including myself, as a "normal" boy. One weird point though was that in elementary school I had a girl friend. We only ever kissed because we didn't know anything past that XD. I have also never liked school but I can't really say if that's because I am trans.

Come puberty and I highly enjoyed discovering my genitals, though I started to wish that I was female and thoughts started to creep into my mind. Still though I went on doing "male" things. Possible signs at this age were always picking female characters in games, and my thoughts/dreams. Still though I only saw myself as male. I didn't believe that it was possible for me to be anything but that, since no one had ever told me to the contrary. So I ignored the thoughts and told nobody.

Come college the frequency of my thoughts increased until it exploded on me. Somehow I managed to suppress GID / GD for the majority of my current life, but the sudden and intense onset of it has been really difficult and probably could have been avoided if someone had just educated me on the subject. So I guess the moral is diversity and more info please. <3

Quote from: Naomi on June 18, 2013, 05:21:33 PM
So by request I guess this qualifies as a weird trans narrative?

Nope, not weird.. Just your narrative.. Different to mine and probably many others, doesn't make it any more or less valid..

Quote from: kyh on June 18, 2013, 12:59:51 AM
You have so many misconceptions about transsexuals I don't even know where to begin... I'm sorry if that sounds mean but really, you need to forget *everything* you've heard about transsexuals and learn about us, yourself, your community, from scratch.

I expected that would touch some nerves (especially the nature vs nurture part in my specific case) but it's honestly based off of my reading and my conversations with a few transsexuals and one gender queer person.
At any rate, my point is that a person is going to transition if they need to regardless of how well they fit the description. This is because transitioning is about becoming more comfortable with yourself as opposed to being comfortable with fitting in with the usual signs/symptoms. But maybe I misread your intent and you could explain my misconceptions? :)

Quote from: Naomi on June 18, 2013, 05:21:33 PM
So by request I guess this qualifies as a weird trans narrative?

As a child I did play with dolls and I role played as female when I played imagination games with my friends. However I picked up the fact that boys were not supposed to play with dolls and stopped. Not once did I ever think to myself as a child that I was not a boy. Though I did often try on my mom clothes. Otherwise I was seen by everyone, including myself, as a "normal" boy. One weird point though was that in elementary school I had a girl friend. We only ever kissed because we didn't know anything past that XD. I have also never liked school but I can't really say if that's because I am trans.
Come puberty and I highly enjoyed discovering my genitals, though I started to wish that I was female and thoughts started to creep into my mind. Still though I went on doing "male" things. Possible signs at this age were always picking female characters in games, and my thoughts/dreams. Still though I only saw myself as male. I didn't believe that it was possible for me to be anything but that, since no one had ever told me to the contrary. So I ignored the thoughts and told nobody.
Come college the frequency of my thoughts increased until it exploded on me. Somehow I managed to suppress GID / GD for the majority of my current life, but the sudden and intense onset of it has been really difficult and probably could have been avoided if someone had just educated me on the subject. So I guess the moral is diversity and more info please. <3

I can appreciate every last word of that^^^. And yes, diversity and more information need to become the norm because sometimes it's painful to suppress those feelings for so long.

I cite us all awesome by trans

Quote from: kyh on June 18, 2013, 08:43:55 PM
You're welcome to read my reply to you again if you're not sure what I was getting at. :) Basically there were some blanket statements in your post that trans people are supposed to adhere to, and I told you that they were just assumptions and not necessarily true. You said, for example, that crossdressing is one of the key "symptoms" of being trans, which is simply not the case. At least, not according to professionals who work with trans people and on trans issues. :P Crossdressing is nothing more than a mode of expression or even a coping mechanism. It's not necessary or key to being transsexual. You also said, as another example, that most transsexuals are compelled to transition before the age of 20, which you'll find out isn't true if you spend some more time on this forum. :) Just because you're transitioning later than a 20 year old is, doesn't mean they're somehow more of a transsexual than you or anyone in your situation.
And honestly, about the nature vs nurture debate, I'm 100% indifferent. But the general consensus in the medical community is that it's more likely nature than nurture, so I simply wanted to point that out. ;D

Oh ok. Thanks for clearing that up for me.  :)

Quote from: kyh on June 18, 2013, 08:43:55 PM
You're welcome to read my reply to you again if you're not sure what I was getting at. :) Basically there were some blanket statements in your post that trans people are supposed to adhere to, and I told you that they were just assumptions and not necessarily true. You said, for example, that crossdressing is one of the key "symptoms" of being trans, which is simply not the case. At least, not according to professionals who work with trans people and on trans issues. :P Crossdressing is nothing more than a mode of expression or even a coping mechanism. It's not necessary or key to being transsexual. You also said, as another example, that most transsexuals are compelled to transition before the age of 20, which you'll find out isn't true if you spend some more time on this forum. :) Just because you're transitioning later than a 20 year old is, doesn't mean they're somehow more of a transsexual than you or anyone in your situation.

And honestly, about the nature vs nurture debate, I'm 100% indifferent. But the general consensus in the medical community is that it's more likely nature than nurture, so I simply wanted to point that out. ;D

Exactly what I was trying to say..