Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I have been noticing and pondering about this for a while now. There seem to be way more male to female transexuals than female to male. If I remember correctly, a leaflet that was given to me said one in 30000 women were trans, while 1 in 10000 men were trans.

The question is, why? Why are there more MtFs than FtMs? Of course the ladies are invited to give their six cents as well.

My first thought was regarding the default state of a human fetus. This is female, after all. So only after adding extras (i.e, testosterone) does it change into a male. This extra alteration gives room for mistakes. It can not be applied right, the fetus can not respond to it properly etc.

My second thought was socialization. The male and female role is pretty strict, but females seem to be more allowed to genderbend a little. The term tomboy is well known, and generally does not have a negative tone to it. But queer does. Males are seemingly less allowed to show feminine traits than females are allowed to show male traits. Consequentely, this can drive MtFs quicker to the decision to transition.

Of course, like in many sciences, we do not know what the raw numbers are. We only see the transexuals that seek help. For all we know, MtFs are quicker (as stated above) to seek help, and FtMs remain in the closet longer, or are easier to accept/choose to live their lives as a woman in the end.

Wild thoughts, I know. What do you guys think? Ever pondered about this?

I think it's a mixture of trans women being more visible and many societies that view persons assigned male at birth who reject their gender role as being "less than." Patriarchal attitudes placing value in male gender roles and by proxy activities goes back to the hunter-gathering societies (even though the obvious answer was that both genders has separate but equally important roles).

Quote from: Mr.X on June 21, 2013, 03:14:22 AMMy first thought was regarding the default state of a human fetus. This is female, after all. So only after adding extras (i.e, testosterone) does it change into a male. This extra alteration gives room for mistakes. It can not be applied right, the fetus can not respond to it properly etc.

That is my personal opinion - something that was supposed to happen (during gestation) DIDN'T.

I think it is, like one of the points you made, the idea that masculine women are to a degree acceptable in society but feminine men not so much.  I almost think it's like there's a lot of women out there who are comfortable enough just dressing more masculine and acting a little more masculine but without having to go any further than that.  So what I feel can happen is that some people like that will identify as transgender but not feel the need to actually go the route of going on hormones or getting surgery, whereas some just don't need to go that route and can stay happy being a masculine female without needing to change their name for example.

Before I continue I am more than well aware that there's more to transitioning than clothing, but this is just example based.

The "unisex" culture is more that male clothing is now considered for either gender, but there's no real female unisex thing happening.  Female tees are female tees, there's no unisex about that.  And female clothing is specific to a women's shape, but women can wear men's clothing, and they can even make male clothing look feminine.  A man's shape is just more straight so if you have curves, you just might need a bigger size but it can work.  Yet feminine clothing doesn't work so well without the body shape. 

Also, with equality efforts and so on, more masculine based traits are actually a good thing for women in the work place and so on.  For example, greater confidence, drive and being competitive.  Whereas more feminine based traits of being soft and shy aren't as great qualities in many work places.  So for women, it can be acceptable, and sometime encouraged in certain areas to be masculine.

So women have the option to be either feminine, masculine or combination of the two and that's all well and good to a degree.   But there's no real alternative for men.  A man can't really go unnoticed or be quite so accepted if they wear feminine clothing.  That stands out.  A feminine man stands out; a masculine woman...meh!  And to really look right in female clothing, you do need to try and fill out certain areas.  So for that people feel the need to either fake body parts or get on hormones and get surgery. 

Basically the way I see it is that I personally believe that for FTM we only see the tip of the iceberg, as in the ones who more need medical intervention or at least a male name.  And perhaps to a degree if having masculine traits wasn't as acceptable or even encouraged for women, we'd maybe actually have more people identifying as FTM so they could act and wear the clothes they want to. 

I'm almost scared to post this for fear of looking like I'm making out that some MTFs aren't true MTFs or something.  But I don't mean that at all.  I mean that I feel societal influence can have an influence just based on what is acceptable and if not, what we have to potentially change to be acceptable as who we are inside.  And I'm also not trying to say it's easier to be FTM because I actually find that the, "Why not just stay a masculine female because that's acceptable?" argument is common.  I actually find some people suggesting they better understand MTF over FTM given the culture we have today.

I HATE masculine gender roles. I think they do not fit me. It upsets me when family members tell me I am going to be a 'man' soon because in reality I am not. I am going to transition into a beautiful woman. I'm very scared but I shouldn't worry too much. I would love for people to treat me like a girl. I hate it when people assume I am just 'one of the boys'

I got hurt today by one of the boys and he teases me because I am weak and effeminate. When we were about 12 we were like the same person - same personality and all. Then we took different routes. I discovered that deep down inside I am feminine but my friend, well.......... he is deffinately male. He is now the most masculine boy in my year - he's 6 foot and I'm still skinny and feminine (i weigh 53kg). I still hate being 1.75m and I feel in pain when people say I am a boy. I would do anything to be a girl.

Your question-

My personality is that being a woman is great. You get to look nice, act civilised be protected and taken care of, be traeted like a possession. It is just great. When I finally transition I will be so much happier. Who wants to be male anyway?

Quote from: veltiro on June 21, 2013, 04:35:16 AMWho wants to be male anyway?

Well, you are posting in an FtM thread  :laugh:
But yeah, I know what you mean and sometimes I feel that way in reverse- then I realize that when it comes down to it, there's a spot either on the spectrum or beyond it for everyone. The cookie-cutter gender mold might be right for them in their original role, or a mold might fit them for the opposite sex, or maybe no mold fits them at all.

The ratio of morphological male and female fetuses, when the higher rate of abortion for the XY fetus is taken into account, is roughly 1:1. However, MtF transsexuals would happen to be a lot more visible simply for the fact that at the very least, they would be seen as "crossdressing". That hardly exists at all for female-raised individuals, who at the most could be seen as tomboyish or butch for wearing a suit. But heaven forbid we let poor confused Tommy try on his sister's old dress and paint his nails...oh what's that? He's a she? Phew, at least she's not gay then!

Another thing would be perhaps the male social upbringing, which has imbued many of these MtF individuals to stand up for themselves. The female role is too often one of meekness and submission, one that discourages breaking the mold in the first place- let alone discovering a gender-sex discrepancy that needs more attention than fitting into the acceptable "masculine woman" role. Since no well-known and accepted role exists in many cases for an MtF, she will have all the more reason to fight for her place in society and the right to a happy and normal life (or abnormal if she wishes). The FtM is likely to suppress his feelings for the sake of being taught to do so, though an MtF might be forced to do the same in order to "protect the children".

But once in female attire, MAAB trans* people of all kinds will immediately gain attention both positive and negative. You wouldn't give a "lady" in a suit a second look in this day and age, but a "man" in a dress certainly catches eyes. If everyone were to come out, I'd expect that ratio to get a lot closer to 1:1.

The Forum Stats icon at the bottom of the index page says this about our membership:

Male to Female Ratio:         1:109.5 Average

I'll go out on a limb and guess that Susan's Place is a pretty good indicator of the transgender community at large.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on June 21, 2013, 07:46:42 AM
The Forum Stats icon at the bottom of the index page says this about our membership:

Male to Female Ratio:         1:109.5 Average

I'll go out on a limb and guess that Susan's Place is a pretty good indicator of the transgender community at large.

[Begin huge massive generalisation]
Perhaps... but could it also be that women tend to enjoy groups more than men do, and so are more likely to join (and remain in) a support group?

Think about the world in general: how common is it for women to join support groups? And how common for men? Would women hang around a support group after they've dealt with their own issues so that they can help other group members? Would men? Perhaps the membership figures are skewed by the simple fact that women like to do things together (like support each other) whilst men like to figure things out for ourselves. After all, the Forum Stats are way out of whack with official figures supplied by GICs. Also, FtMs are more likely than MtFs to exhibit autistic traits, which means we're more likely to find groups difficult.
[End huge massive generalisation]

In answer to the OP's question, I think it's because it's easier in our societies for some people who were born female-bodied to make enough adjustments to their lives so that they can cope with some forms of GD without resorting to full transition, whereas it's very difficult for those born male-bodied to make similar adjustments.

I bet the figures look very interesting in somewhere like Iran, where gay men are transitioning in large numbers because that's the only way they can be intimate with men without facing the death penalty, but I don't believe that people who were AFAB are able to transition.

I think the number is equal But usunally it looks like there is more mtf than ftms, Simple because FTM often tend to blend into sociaty as either being a regular guy or viewed as a tomboy. where mtf who do not pass are standing out.

also In many cultures the FTM thing do not really exist only the mtf part and even if it exist its a small minority. So people know you can be trans if your a man who want to be a woman, but not opposite and I guess that makes many ftms staying in the closet.

So to make it short, I think it equal but ftms just tend to be forgotten cause there often less visiable.

Quote from: Mr.X on June 21, 2013, 03:14:22 AM
I have been noticing and pondering about this for a while now. There seem to be way more male to female transexuals than female to male. If I remember correctly, a leaflet that was given to me said one in 30000 women were trans, while 1 in 10000 men were trans.

The question is, why? Why are there more MtFs than FtMs? Of course the ladies are invited to give their six cents as well.

My first thought was regarding the default state of a human fetus. This is female, after all. So only after adding extras (i.e, testosterone) does it change into a male. This extra alteration gives room for mistakes. It can not be applied right, the fetus can not respond to it properly etc.

My second thought was socialization. The male and female role is pretty strict, but females seem to be more allowed to genderbend a little. The term tomboy is well known, and generally does not have a negative tone to it. But queer does. Males are seemingly less allowed to show feminine traits than females are allowed to show male traits. Consequentely, this can drive MtFs quicker to the decision to transition.

Of course, like in many sciences, we do not know what the raw numbers are. We only see the transexuals that seek help. For all we know, MtFs are quicker (as stated above) to seek help, and FtMs remain in the closet longer, or are easier to accept/choose to live their lives as a woman in the end.

Wild thoughts, I know. What do you guys think? Ever pondered about this?

I have a dime, may I have four cents back? No seriously, you can keep the change.

The third paragraph is what I notice a lot where I live. I have seen F2Ms in the beginning stages of transition go in places of business and no one even takes a second glance. I have seen M2Fs go into the same type of places and everyone seems to look or have the same old things to say. It's kind of ironic in that we may be closer to our preffered genders when it comes to double standards for the genders. ;) Or at least where I live anyway.

Quote from: Jess42 on June 21, 2013, 10:44:22 AM
I have a dime, may I have four cents back? No seriously, you can keep the change.

The third paragraph is what I notice a lot where I live. I have seen F2Ms in the beginning stages of transition go in places of business and no one even takes a second glance. I have seen M2Fs go into the same type of places and everyone seems to look or have the same old things to say. It's kind of ironic in that we may be closer to our preffered genders when it comes to double standards for the genders. ;) Or at least where I live anyway.

Yes, and not just where you live. There's nothing quite as sobering for an FtM as going out in public with an early-stage MtF. People's reactions to early-stage FtMs are only occasionally negative... but their reactions to early-stage MtFs are almost universally negative.

I've always thought it was because MtF is more culturally established than FtM. I knew about MtF sex changes long before I even knew FtM even existed - I didn't even think Female to Male transitions were possible, let alone a thing that actually happened. And I might have come out a lot sooner if I'd known about it from the beginning.
   
As others have said MtFs are more visible in terms of how society works and so perhaps, like me, potential FtMs don't come out because they're not aware that how they feel is an established condition. I've watched several documentaries in which FtMs interact with members of the (sadly mostly ignorant) public whose reactions are invariably along the lines of,
"Oh, I didn't know it worked the other way around."

I've even had conversations with friends about transexualism (testing the waters, as it were) in which they've been all,
"Hey, did you know men can grow breasts if they take estrogen?"
And I've said something along the lines of,
"Well yeah. And women can grow what's pretty much a penis if they take testosterone."
And they've been like,
"Haha, noooo! Don't be so stupid, women can never have a penis!"
They didn't know what FtM was and refused to believe it existed even after I explained it to them. I didn't like to tell them how I knew this, though, so eventually I just gave up.

But anyway, coming back to the point, I've always believed that lack of public exposure to the other side of the coin means that potential FtMs, isolated from the LGBT community, just don't know that there are people like them and places to help them. I certainly didn't, though maybe I was just really unlucky in that respect!

Quote from: FTMDiaries on June 21, 2013, 11:17:38 AM
Yes, and not just where you live. There's nothing quite as sobering for an FtM as going out in public with an early-stage MtF. People's reactions to early-stage FtMs are only occasionally negative... but their reactions to early-stage MtFs are almost universally negative.

For me my early-stage time wasn't that negative mainly just stares and a few laughs. But nothing overly negative sure people probably just made their commits behind my back but I was ok with that. What's funny now when I have to go out as a guy these days is way more awkward than going out as myself.  :)

I wonder if more "butch women" would actually transition if it was considered more socially acceptable. Within 20 years that ratio might even out a bit.

Quote from: WileyCoyote on June 21, 2013, 12:20:17 PM
I wonder if more "butch women" would actually transition if it was considered more socially acceptable. Within 20 years that ratio might even out a bit.

No, just because a woman is butch doesn't mean she should have been born a man. My own gf is Pansexual and masculine. She has no need to transition and loves being a woman. Of course as time goes on and transition is socially acceptable more people will transition because the taboo of it won't be a hindrance but that still won't depend on if a person is masculine or feminine.

Back to the OP's question. Like a couple others said I also believe MTF's are just more visible in society. We have it easier usually with hormonal changes and they have it easier on the surgical results end. We blend in rather quickly compared to them so they might be more apt to seek out support from each other as a way to deal with society's prejudices. A lot of transguys tend to be loners.

There really is no trans-database that I'm aware of. There are guys I've talked to who just use informed consent with their GP to obtain hormones. I doubt surgeons are releasing data on us to any group taking a tally of us. There really is no way to tell how many of us there are in the world but I'd estimate there are at least tens of thousands of us if not more. I mean Dr. Garramone alone has his business at 70% just doing top surgeries (he mentioned that once but I can't remember where) and his waiting list is huge. Think about that.

Quote from: Natkat on June 21, 2013, 09:22:54 AM
I think the number is equal But usunally it looks like there is more mtf than ftms, Simple because FTM often tend to blend into sociaty as either being a regular guy or viewed as a tomboy. where mtf who do not pass are standing out.

also In many cultures the FTM thing do not really exist only the mtf part and even if it exist its a small minority. So people know you can be trans if your a man who want to be a woman, but not opposite and I guess that makes many ftms staying in the closet.

So to make it short, I think it equal but ftms just tend to be forgotten cause there often less visiable.

I don't agree with this. The statistics aren't based on how many trans people you see on the streets, I'm guessing it's based on how many people are attending therapy, taking hormones, opting for surgery, etc. I can personally say I've never met any other FtMs to my knowledge, but I know a good handful of MtFs.

I've been thinking about this lately, and I wonder if it's partially because of the social stigma of transitioning, and how society accepts appearance. It's much more acceptable for a woman to dress and act butch, because she's either a lesbian or a badass, but it's not at all ok for men to wear drag as their everyday attire. So because these butch "women" are fitting into society better, they maybe don't feel as pressured about their bodies and their appearances. Maybe they don't even know that they might want to transition because they're being left alone to live their lives much more peacefully. They can feel like the man in the relationship without having to go through the trouble of actually making their body a man's body. Meanwhile those born male who only feel comfortable in women's clothes can't lead as normal a life because (for whatever reason) society does not see that as being ok. Not to mention as men age, their features become more defined, and for a transwoman, the changes can be devastating on their mindset when all they want is delicate female features. Transmen will just always look young for their age without hormones.

Quote from: Simon on June 21, 2013, 01:18:13 PM
No, just because a woman is butch doesn't mean she should have been born a man. My own gf is Pansexual and masculine. She has no need to transition and loves being a woman. Of course as time goes on and transition is socially acceptable more people will transition because the taboo of it won't be a hindrance but that still won't depend on if a person is masculine or feminine.

I think he's simply referring to the transmen who don't transition and simply live as butch women (the same way I referenced those people). He's obviously not saying all butch women are actually trans.

Quote from: D0LL on June 21, 2013, 01:24:30 PM
I think he's simply referring to the transmen who don't transition and simply live as butch women (the same way I referenced those people). He's obviously not saying all butch women are actually trans.

Ah ok, if that's the case then a misunderstanding on my behalf.  :P

The data seems to indicate that genetics may be playing a part on it.

In Poland the MTF to FTM ratio is 1:1

Quote from: peky on June 21, 2013, 01:35:56 PM
The data seems to indicate that genetics may be playing a part on it.

In Poland the MTF to FTM ratio is 1:1

Yeah but that's not far from the 1:1095 that Devlyn posted. Of course I feel sorry for the person that is 0.095. I do believe they have bigger problems than being transgedered.

I agree with the idea that it is more socially acceptable to be a masculine woman. I lived for years in a sort of androgynous place. I don't think anybody looked at me strangely-- except for a couple therapists. It is socially acceptable to be in a more masculine state on the spectrum somewhere. Males can't be at all feminine, you only see this in young guys (25 or younger).

Also males tend to be stealth more often, because they can be. OTOH, I think there are gains in FTM visibility lately. Our FTM group may even be a bit larger than the MTF group, just a group not how many FTMs vs MTFs.

--Jay

Quote from: Jess42 on June 21, 2013, 02:31:56 PM
Yeah but that's not far from the 1:1095 that Devlyn posted. Of course I feel sorry for the person that is 0.095. I do believe they have bigger problems than being transgedered.

No, you got the math wrong, there are 109.5 people who identify as female to 1 who identifies as male on this site. The guys are drastically outnumbered, or swimmin' in women, depending on how you look at it! Hugs, Devlyn

In the near future, I think we are about to see an explosion (relative to the past at least)  in the number of young guys who have transitioned given the current visibility of the process, so the FTM side may start to catch up at least a bit.

That study that was posted about awhile back showed that MTFs actually transition much later in life than FTMs,.

With FTMs transitioning younger as they realize they have options that previous generations may not have known about, the numbers may temporarily flare up in one age group, IE - 18-30 year old  FTMs may even all ready out number 18-30 year old MTFs.

(for convenience, I am using the terms FTM and MTF despite a dislike for them)

As far as I know in Germany the ratio is near 1:1

Lar

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on June 21, 2013, 03:17:32 PM
No, you got the math wrong, there are 109.5 people who identify as female to 1 who identifies as male on this site. The guys are drastically outnumbered, or swimmin' in women, depending on how you look at it! Hugs, Devlyn

Oh crap. It's official now, either I'm old and need glasses or just plain stupid. Okay that is one heck of a difference then.

I think this has been mentioned a few times but what the hell :)

I definitely think it has to do with society. It seems to me that it is dramatically more acceptable to be a masculine woman than it is to be a feminine man. A personal experience, I remember in high school we had a very masculine girl who played on our football team. She was just "one of the guys" and was extremely popular. The male cheerleaders, well they were the butt of many jokes. I think this loosely describes our society.

I think there are a few reasons why there are more transitioning trans women than trans men out there, and on this site.

1.
It's easier for AFAB people to live as gender non-conforming than it is for those AMAB.  Society doesn't give a toss about me, who's supposedly female, wearing and presenting male the entire time.  The last time I wore female clothes out of choice was two or so years ago, and no one's mentioned a thing.  I'm not the only AFAB person who wears male clothing, and presents male.  If someone AMAB was to do the same thing in reverse there would be daggers thrown at them when they walked down the street at least, and one of the biggest insults for a man is to be called a "sissy" or similar terms indicating that they aren't masculine enough.  Being able to dress and act in a masculine way might be enough for some trans men, and they can live their life as a tomboy without ever having to consider gender/gender roles enough to explore their gender identity.

2.
Trans women are more visible in the media than trans men.  The majority of people know that trans women exist, a large percentage of people don't seem to realise that they have male counterparts.  Quite frequently I hear the same story from trans men, particularly those who realised they were trans in their teens rather than as a young child, they knew something was right, but until they discovered that trans men existed they didn't know they were trans.  If someone didn't know it was possible to be trans then the majority of the time I could imagine that they would just think they're crazy and not mention it to anyone for fear of ridicule.

3.
(N.B.: This part isn't intended to offend anyone, I don't believe that one side has it "better" than the other at all.  It's a huge generalisation.)  Trans men seem to pass as male easier and quicker than trans women as female, in general.  This throws up more problems for trans women in terms of the social aspects of transitioning, so they might be more inclined to stick around for longer, because the issues they face may be on going.  If a trans man is passing and stealth then he doesn't need to worry about the social aspect to the same degree, and the questions that would be raised would be more about surgery/packers/binders, and the majority of the time they can be googled.  The social aspects of life are going to be harder to find definitive answers on, or the exact same question asked and debated about before.

Of course there could then be genetic things, and AMAB people are more prone to it occurring, but I've never been a biologist.

Quote from: Jess42 on June 21, 2013, 02:31:56 PM
Yeah but that's not far from the 1:1095 that Devlyn posted. Of course I feel sorry for the person that is 0.095. I do believe they have bigger problems than being transgedered.

Devlyn posted the ratio found in this site....the ratio in most western countries, including the USA, is 3:1 MTF:FTM

Quote from: Michelle S. on June 21, 2013, 04:35:43 PM
I think this has been mentioned a few times but what the hell :)

I definitely think it has to do with society. It seems to me that it is dramatically more acceptable to be a masculine woman than it is to be a feminine man. A personal experience, I remember in high school we had a very masculine girl who played on our football team. She was just "one of the guys" and was extremely popular. The male cheerleaders, well they were the butt of many jokes. I think this loosely describes our society.

^^^ +1  sadly but true

http://tgmentalhealth.com/2010/03/31/the-prevalence-of-->-bleeped-<-/ (http://tgmentalhealth.com/2010/03/31/the-prevalence-of--%3E-bleeped-%3C-/)

This ^^^ link articulates the issue better than I ever could, and supports the 3:1 ratio

Quote from: peky on June 21, 2013, 06:40:00 PM
Devlyn posted the ratio found in this site....the ratio in most western countries, including the USA, is 3:1 MTF:FTM

Yeah I read it wrong. But still 3:1 is quite a big difference compared to 1:1 in Poland.

Quote from: peky on June 21, 2013, 06:51:31 PM
http://tgmentalhealth.com/2010/03/31/the-prevalence-of-->-bleeped-<-/ (http://tgmentalhealth.com/2010/03/31/the-prevalence-of--%3E-bleeped-%3C-/)

This ^^^ link articulates the issue better than I ever could, and supports the 3:1 ratio

Yeah, because you know we were going to hold your feet to the fire for a source! How's your own medicine taste?  >:-)

Hugs, Devlyn

Here is another link, where Lynn Conway takes stab to the topic...very interesting indeed

http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/TSprevalence.html (http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/TSprevalence.html)

http://www.tgender.net/taw/thb/THBPrevalence-OE2008.pdf (http://www.tgender.net/taw/thb/THBPrevalence-OE2008.pdf)
This link ^^^ by Dr. Horton is pretty revealing for the situation in the USA

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on June 21, 2013, 03:17:32 PM
No, you got the math wrong, there are 109.5 people who identify as female to 1 who identifies as male on this site. The guys are drastically outnumbered, or swimmin' in women, depending on how you look at it! Hugs, Devlyn

I like to think of it as opportunity. ;)

--Jay

I not sure what its like at my college as a whole as apparently there as numerous stealth trans* people but in the trans* student group there are 2 FTMs, 1 FAAB genderqueer person, and 6 MTFs which perhaps coincidentally meets that 3:1 number. Of course possible factors in that number might also come from the fact that there is 2. something : 1 ratio in the school population at large.

Quote from: veltiro on June 21, 2013, 04:35:16 AM
My personality is that being a woman is great. You get to look nice, act civilised be protected and taken care of, be traeted like a possession. It is just great. When I finally transition I will be so much happier. Who wants to be male anyway?

Talk about a 180 degree perspective difference. In my opinion if you honestly want to be "treated like a possession" that's something beyond just feeling/wanting to be female. I mean, females everywhere rally against being anyone's possession. I'm sure you'll find some guy out there willing to do that for you though.

I had topic like this awhile back because it was something I noticed as well. My theory was a lot like other people's in that masculine women are a lot more acceptable in most western societies and therefore can fly "under the radar" so to speak for some time.

Quote from: Liminal Stranger on June 21, 2013, 07:37:37 AM
Well, you are posting in an FtM thread  :laugh:

This is not inherently an FtM-only topic, so I have moved it up a level for a wider discussion.

I believe we are a design by motjer nature for population
Control....were designed in for a balance. .
What reason do we exist for?? We don't produce children...

What we can do is lure men from woman..and quite effectively ...
For every time a man is with us...that is potentially one less
Baby ..

And why the super increase of trans children?? We are that over
Populated.  Our incident level went up 200 fold in children lately .

M'y crazy ideas after studyig us girls boys ..homos...trans....
And thé massive population....

Quote from: JulieR on June 21, 2013, 08:43:05 PM
My own crackpot observation is that there doesn't seem to be as many older ftms entering the process at any one time.  I might be wrong, in fact that's usually the case, but what factors would prevent an older genetic female from transitioning?  Having a family perhaps?

There was a recent study in Germany that FTM start their transition approx. 10 years earlier than MTF. I am not sure if the reasons were studied. The same study showed a nearly 1:1 ratio.

Lara

Quote from: xchristine on June 22, 2013, 01:25:36 AM
I believe we are a design by motjer nature for population
Control....were designed in for a balance. .
What reason do we exist for?? We don't produce children...

What we can do is lure men from woman..and quite effectively ...
For every time a man is with us...that is potentially one less
Baby ..

And why the super increase of trans children?? We are that over
Populated.  Our incident level went up 200 fold in children lately .

M'y crazy ideas after studyig us girls boys ..homos...trans....
And thé massive population....

That's assuming all transwomen are straight! I'm les and have two kids :P

Quote from: peky on June 21, 2013, 06:42:44 PM
^^^ +1  sadly but true

THANKS!!! My first one :icon_walk:

Quote from: xchristine on June 22, 2013, 01:25:36 AM
I believe we are a design by motjer nature for population
Control....were designed in for a balance. .
What reason do we exist for?? We don't produce children...

What we can do is lure men from woman..and quite effectively ...
For every time a man is with us...that is potentially one less
Baby ..

And why the super increase of trans children?? We are that over
Populated.  Our incident level went up 200 fold in children lately .

M'y crazy ideas after studyig us girls boys ..homos...trans....
And thé massive population....

That's also ignoring that it's less taboo to be trans now than it was forty years ago.  And if mother nature wanted to reduce the population wouldn't there just be a natural disaster?  Much easier.

Quote from: xchristine on June 22, 2013, 01:25:36 AM
I believe we are a design by motjer nature for population
Control....were designed in for a balance. .
What reason do we exist for?? We don't produce children...

What we can do is lure men from woman..and quite effectively ...
For every time a man is with us...that is potentially one less
Baby ..

And why the super increase of trans children?? We are that over
Populated.  Our incident level went up 200 fold in children lately .

M'y crazy ideas after studyig us girls boys ..homos...trans....
And thé massive population....

I don't think it really works that way. They are plenty of lgbt people who have children. And nature doesn't need us for population control it already has disease, famine, and natural disasters for that. And I'm not here to lure men away from women I am a women! Should a women who can't have kids stay single for the fear that she may be preventing the man from being a father?

Quote from: xchristine on June 22, 2013, 01:25:36 AM
I believe we are a design by motjer nature for population
Control....were designed in for a balance. .
What reason do we exist for?? We don't produce children...

What we can do is lure men from woman..and quite effectively ...
For every time a man is with us...that is potentially one less
Baby ..

And why the super increase of trans children?? We are that over
Populated.  Our incident level went up 200 fold in children lately .

M'y crazy ideas after studyig us girls boys ..homos...trans....
And thé massive population....

If in antiquity say 1,000 years BCE, the word "eunuch" included folks affected by GID, then your hypothesis would not hold much water.

That ^^^ aside, homosexuality has existed for as long as our specie existed. The evolutionary value of homosexuality has been discussed for quiet sometimes. Yes, there is an hypothesis similar to your that states that homosexuality has an altruistic value and could have been initially served as a population control system.

I have pondered the sociological and evolutionary value of MTF GID folks. My hypothesis is that having a "strong" trans-female had a protective value to the "foraging cis females in any given tribe.

If my posit is correct then what is the evolutionary value in our modern society?

Quote from: Heather on June 22, 2013, 08:34:47 AM
I don't think it really works that way. They are plenty of lgbt people who have children. And nature doesn't need us for population control it already has disease, famine, and natural disasters for that. And I'm not here to lure men away from women I am a women! Should a women who can't have kids stay single for the fear that she may be preventing the man from being a father?

At 7 billion humans, I think mother's nature population control is an abysmal failure...LOL

Quote from: peky on June 22, 2013, 08:43:46 AM
At 7 billion humans, I think mother's nature population is an abysmal failure...LOL

You have a point and I think we have found ways around mother natures attempts at population control. :)

Quote from: Heather on June 22, 2013, 08:50:45 AM
You have a point and I think we have found ways around mother natures attempts at population control. :)

Mother Nature hasn't played the "Comet" card on us yet!

Also when motjer nature designed us....I don't think she imagined we
Would marry and stay in mono relationships..

Given that you take away marriage and the act of exclusiveness..
You would have men running around doing anyhing that walked...
Including us ..under that model...the way men were..
We would be constantly waking up with a concussion and dripping ummm..

Hence another way to look at it is..a gender variant female that cannot
Get pregnant...

As we all know how men are...if left to themselves...they would be non
Stop doing anything feminine or ones they can dominate ..
Which is us quite easily...its not hard to see to see a physical differance in
A lot of ts girls...lower strength.  More petite body.  Less aggressive. .

So if under a animistic model which motjer nature created us as...
A single ts girl in a city can easily drop the birthrate by at least
365 a year OR MORE.....and as we increase in poplulatoon that effect gets
Larger...

Just my wacked out theories....I work in isolated environments ...
I tend to think...

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on June 22, 2013, 09:00:42 AM
Mother Nature hasn't played the "Comet" card on us yet!

No she hasn't! :icon_nervious:

Quote from: xchristine on June 22, 2013, 09:42:20 AM


As we all know how men are...if left to themselves...they would be non
Stop doing anything feminine or ones they can dominate ..

I think that is just a stereotype they are lots of good men out there that are not going out and sleeping with everything. And the ones that are doing that are more than likely not secure in their own masculinity. And thus trying to over compensate for it.

Quote from: xchristine on June 22, 2013, 01:25:36 AM
What we can do is lure men from woman..and quite effectively ...
For every time a man is with us...that is potentially one less
Baby ..

I have to put this out there, that is terrible. We don't lure men from anything and anyone doing so should be ashamed. I once knew a girl who literally made it a game to trick men into sleeping with her without revealing she was pre-op. What she was doing was in my mind not okay and it almost sounds like you're saying that's our purpose in life. I think most of us would agree we are women who are in fact looking for partners and not men to "lure" into having sex with us...

If gays, intersex, trans and infertile men/women were a part mother nature's master plan for population control I'd have to say she's a moron. :)

Maybe there is no reason. Maybe it just is. Sometimes things just are.

Quote from: xchristine on June 22, 2013, 01:25:36 AM
I believe we are a design by motjer nature for population
Control....were designed in for a balance. .
What reason do we exist for?? We don't produce children...

What we can do is lure men from woman..and quite effectively ...
For every time a man is with us...that is potentially one less
Baby ..

And why the super increase of trans children?? We are that over
Populated.  Our incident level went up 200 fold in children lately .

M'y crazy ideas after studyig us girls boys ..homos...trans....
And thé massive population....

Maybe no actual increase in trans children. Increase in trans children coming out. How many of you actually came out very early-- I did. Of course, it was just kind of cute in my case (in some cases it was punished).

I don't know that it is genetic in the usual sense-- maybe a normal variation. Just because it isn't convenient doesn't make it abnormal.


--Jay

Quote from: aleon515 on June 22, 2013, 04:45:49 PM
How many of you actually came out very early-- I did. Of course, it was just kind of cute in my case (in some cases it was punished).

I never told my parents before I left home at 18 because my mom was a very strict Southern Baptist and I knew they would have thrown out all of my guy clothes and made me just wear dresses (which would have been disastrous). I remember being screamed at when I was little multiple times for being caught standing up peeing. When I was 15 I cut my hair off and started buying men's underwear. At 17 I started binding and trying different names. There is no way towards the end that they didn't know but in the house I grew up in we didn't discuss things.

Quote from: Jamie D on June 22, 2013, 12:39:14 AM
This is not inherently an FtM-only topic, so I have moved it up a level for a wider discussion.

Ah. It was in the FTM section before  :)
Interesting theories here...now if only that 109.5:1 ratio applied to the whole world  ;D

I would think its close to 1:1 as as is the female:male ratio

Well, since the topic got bumped, I may as well throw in my opinion.

I reckon that the actual number of CAMAB and CAFAB trans* is roughly equal. The reason it seems like most are CAMAB is because many statistics only factor in those that have had bottom surgery. It's well known that women are more likely to get bottom surgery than men - the reasons for which are two-fold. First of all, obviously neovulvas/vaginas usually resemble natural vulvas/vaginas more so than neopenises resemble natural penises (and with phalloplasty, there's a big risk of losing sensation, whereas with vaginoplasties the risk is pretty low). The second reason is that women are under a lot more pressure to have a vagina than men are to have a penis. In a society which regards the female body as a commodity, something for men to consume and objectify, not having the 'right' genitalia brands you as a failure. With the male body, which isn't objectified to nearly the same extent, there's less pressure. So ultimately, many trans women who wouldn't otherwise particularly want bottom surgery are getting it anyway due to societal pressures, which is less frequently the case for trans men.

Now with regards to why trans women have so much more visibility. The lion's share of representation of trans women treats them as either a punchline or a monster. Again, the reasons for this are rooted in misogyny. In a world where men are seen a superior, and women consequently as inferior, the idea of any male choosing to be a woman (N.B. obviously for most trans people it isn't a choice, but this is from society's point of view) is seen as absurd - why would someone born into a 'superior' class want to associate themselves with a class that is 'inferior'? Because trans women pose a very real threat to the idea of male supremacy, there are two ways in which they are defamed. The most common way is to portray them as having an incentive to attract unsuspecting hetero men and sleep with them, thus representing the one facet of life in which misogynists see women as having power over them (i.e. by being sexually attractive) - they are regarded as deceptive and perverted, thinking of nothing but sex. The second most common method is to portray them as evil or otherwise mentally ill - thus, their 'desire' to become female is seen as being rooted in their being 'crazy' (which in itself is a function of ableism - a topic for another day). In these ways, it's insured that trans women are never taken seriously, and male supremacy stays unchallenged.

By contrast, trans men do not pose nearly as big a threat to male supremacy. Because from a misogynist's standpoint, why wouldn't someone born into the female class want to 'emulate' men, the 'superior' class? While trans women are pathologised, trans men can be mostly ignored by society, because being male is not seen as inferior. They will still often be dismissed, of course, but there is no need for such a concentrated effort to mark them out.

One last thing to note is that trans men often have a much easier time assimilating into society (i.e. becoming 'stealth') than trans women do. This is partially due to the nature of HRT (in particular the way that testosterone induces facial hair growth and a deepened voice, whilst estrogen does not reverse this), but a much bigger reason is due to the way we subconciously gender people. It's something that almost everyone does without even thinking - within seconds we will have formulated whether we see a person as male or female based on their physical appearance. Most people do this by looking for male traits - those with them are regarded as men, whilst those without them are regarded as women. This stems from the cultural perception that men, as the 'superior' class, are defined as 'having' something, and women are defined as 'lacking' that same thing. Aside from visible breasts, almost every gendered trait we notice most is a male trait. Facial hair, an Adam's apple, M-shaped hairline, wide shoulders etc. - the presence of even one of these can be enough for someone to gender someone else as male. If the person in question has more than one of these things, they are even more likely to be gendered as male. Couple that with the fact that women in general are scrutinised for their appearance much more so than men, and you have a culture where 'passing' is much more difficult for trans women than trans men.

So long story short, the reason CAMAB folks get so much more visibility than CAFAB folks is out of a need to pathologise everything related to the 'female' class.

One thing I have noticed is that to be a man is to be in control in alot of places. Like as a guy you can just go places and not worry about being raped or kidnapped. I know with my 6 months of full male mode I got to go to Costa Rica as a guy. Iraq, Dubai London and even Germany. So much power as a guy. So much is given up as a girl. I'm only saying this because many women have told me this is the reasons they would want to be men. Plus the standing a peeing thing. I have never been able to actually meet a FtoM or another MtoF for that matter but all the FtoMs on this sure seem like normal hot guys to me. I'm surprised there's not more inline.
Ps did I mention quite a few FtoMs I have seen on this sure are hot ;)

I think it's a media thing. A 'man' giving up 'his' dominant position in a patriarchal society provides more shock value than a 'woman' trying to 'get an upper hand'. More shock value means more viewers. More viewers means more money. So the media portrays far more mtfs than ftms. Most ftms are portrayed as crossdressers and happily go back to the kitchen and make babies at the end of the show/program/movie/book. Without the media covering ftm, and only focusing on mtf, a great many of the men faab live their lives miserably as female. Or they suicide, without anyone knowing why.

Quote from: Soren on July 13, 2013, 11:06:14 PM
I think it's a media thing. A 'man' giving up 'his' dominant position in a patriarchal society provides more shock value than a 'woman' trying to 'get an upper hand'. More shock value means more viewers. More viewers means more money. So the media portrays far more mtfs than ftms. Most ftms are portrayed as crossdressers and happily go back to the kitchen and make babies at the end of the show/program/movie/book. Without the media covering ftm, and only focusing on mtf, a great many of the men faab live their lives miserably as female. Or they suicide, without anyone knowing why.

You know. I really do think. You make a good point. To the general public I could see a FtoM being way more acceptable. If its about power and such things in the non trans persons eyes they can understand that more easy. Plus it helps to be male in male dominant places and jobs. And most of the trans guys I have seen on this site are kinda hot ... I'm just sayin.....
I'm gunna be quiet now :)