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I'm not out with people or even most of my family so this mostly pertains to my wife. I have made it clear with my wife that I'm a guy and would like to be treated as one. I've been understanding with her needs and treat her like the girl she wants to be but I can't say that she's done the same for me, certainly not to the extent I've done for her. So, it's kind of a laundry list of issues so bear with me.

The list:
Constantly stealing both my old female wardrobe and my newer guy wardrobe. We both shared clothes from our old wardrobes but I let her keep the stuff I gave her yet she's slowly taking back her old guy clothes and acting offended when I point this out. (I've made a point now to just plan to buy my own clothes but it bothers me that she's keeping my old stuff yet I can't keep the ones she gave me.)

Throws me under the bus when I try to do the "guy thing" or take charge. It's hard to explain but when I say things along the lines of "I'm the man, let me take care of it" or anything like that, she usually responds "No, you're not. That's my job." This wouldn't be a big deal if it was like "Just let me do it", it's specifically "No you are NOT the man, let the real man do it". That really bothers me because it's not said as a joke.

She just doesn't seem to see me as a guy. I dress like a guy, wear boxers, don't shave my legs, respond to male pronouns, ect. But she still doesn't seem to "get" that I want to be a guy and often makes that apparent in her actions and words. I've done all I can to make her feel like a woman but she's still not making the transition with me being a guy now.

So, really, I've talked and talked with her but she still insist that she's not doing anything wrong. She said it takes time for her to come to grips with things and I've backed off to allow that but nothing has improved. If anything, she claims I'm being too sensitive. I would think with her being MTF, she'd be more understanding but I guess not.

Any advise guys?

If I were you, I'd find a support site and make a post asking for advice. Errrrrr, never mind, you just did! I think communicating like you are is right, now add time, and stay patient. I'm single, so my marriage advice is always a shot in the dark! Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on June 27, 2013, 12:23:10 PM
If I were you, I'd find a support site and make a post asking for advice. Errrrrr, never mind, you just did! I think communicating like you are is right, now add time, and stay patient. I'm single, so my marriage advice is always a shot in the dark! Hugs, Devlyn

Lol, that's understandable.

I wish she could see things my my view more. I've tried the "what if you were in their shoes" approach with her MANY times to try to make her understand things more, but it's like a bouncy ball hitting a wall. It just ricochets off her and makes little to no difference. She just doesn't seem to have the capability of seeing things from another person's view and it's frustrating.

Quote from: wolfduality on June 27, 2013, 12:27:36 PM
Lol, that's understandable.

I wish she could see things my my view more. I've tried the "what if you were in their shoes" approach with her MANY times to try to make her understand things more, but it's like a bouncy ball hitting a wall. It just ricochets off her and makes little to no difference. She just doesn't seem to have the capability of seeing things from another person's view and it's frustrating.

LOL, you and every other married man on the planet! I think it will work out as long as you're both open with each other. Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on June 27, 2013, 12:30:47 PM
LOL, you and every other married man on the planet! I think it will work out as long as you're both open with each other. Hugs, Devlyn

Thanks hun! I do appreciate the support and it's nice to be reminded about this not being just an issue in my relationship. (No saarcasm)

I also noticed her doing the stuff I used to do when I presented as female. Which makes me laugh and kinda annoys me too since she's literally copying me.

If you think she's incapable of seeing things from someone else's perspective that's called lack of empathy and compassion and is a personality flaw that needs to be seen by a therapist. That might sound harsh, but that's my opinion. I highly suggest pushing her to join you for couples counseling. If she refuses to go you will still benefit from it by having an empathetic, compassionate ear to listen and dole out advice or point you in directions to make your life with and without her better. I don't mean 'without her' as in ending the marriage. I mean learning how to not allow her to invalidate you. It's a difficult thing to do but it can make toxic marriages more pleasant.

Sometimes a little outside perspective helps:

Lots of women steal guys clothes lol. It's always infuriating but doesn't make you less of a man, or them too masculine. I have a friend whose girlfriend is always borrowing his tees or hoodies.

Women can get hung up on not wanting to fit stereotypes. Maybe she's not putting it in the correct terms but many women don't like to be somewhat put down by a man who wants to step up and take charge. I can imagine for MTF individuals this may actually be harder to let go of, especially if they were once trying to somewhat compensate pre transition with uber masculinity.

Oh and not all guys have to not shave their legs ;). I battled long and hard with this one but as a cyclist I just can't go without shaved legs. Road rash with hairy legs is something I never, ever, EVER want to experience again. :P

Maybe you both have some stereotypes set in stone that you need to talk over with each other and establish the basis of your relationship.

Quote from: randomroads on June 27, 2013, 03:10:24 PM
If you think she's incapable of seeing things from someone else's perspective that's called lack of empathy and compassion and is a personality flaw that needs to be seen by a therapist. That might sound harsh, but that's my opinion. I highly suggest pushing her to join you for couples counseling. If she refuses to go you will still benefit from it by having an empathetic, compassionate ear to listen and dole out advice or point you in directions to make your life with and without her better. I don't mean 'without her' as in ending the marriage. I mean learning how to not allow her to invalidate you. It's a difficult thing to do but it can make toxic marriages more pleasant.

I've actually been looking into counselling, not just for us as a couple, but for individual counselling. I don't doubt your assessment about her lack of empathy as she usually seems to wonder "Well, how can I benefit from this?" and can be narcissistic at times. I blame a lot of her upbringing for that as her parents enable both her and her brother by never demanding them to get serious about life or whatnot. They've been spoiled in that sense so it's not just the lack of empathy but her sometimes selfish attitude.

It's unfortunate, but we tried speaking with a counselor at one point, which I asked her to keep between her and I. Instead, she went home and told her mom what happened during the session. Her mom thinks I'm too harsh on my wife and that I'm too mean but I guess that's to be expected from a parent. So, on top of her lack of empathy and selfishness, she won't keep her mother out of our marriage even though she expects me to keep my family out of it.

As you can probably see, it was just the tip of the iceberg but it's kinda the breaking point that I'm reaching with her on top of everything else.

Quote from: Jack_M on June 27, 2013, 03:18:55 PM
...Maybe you both have some stereotypes set in stone that you need to talk over with each other and establish the basis of your relationship.

Well, that's the thing though. She WANTS to be a stereotypical housewife and I would like to be the working family man. I asked her specifically what she expected out of becoming a woman and she gave me an answer of being a really girly girl housewife. Goes shopping with her girlfriends, cooking, and cleaning. Yet, shortly after this heart to heart, she started applying for fulltime jobs and refuses to do ANY housework. Sure, it's possible she exaggerated what she wanted or still isn't sure of what she wants but it's tiring to be told one thing yet they do something else.

Even when I ask her why she says that but does something else, she just says that I'm being nosy and obnoxious.

I know all about stereotypes. When I first came out with my two close friends I tried to push myself into a girls role. I had a metaphorical slap from a friend telling me to stop trying to act like somebody I am not. I am girly, but I was trying to be even more so to overcompensate. Then I found what works for me and I am rolling with it. I think she is still trying to figure out her own role and what everything means for her.

I am sorry to hear about her reaction. That is not fair to you either. Keeping parents out of a relationship  is always hard. There is a fine line to be walked. You are married to the other person not their parents, but it is nice to have their support at times as well. Seems like she does not understand this yet.

Honestly, dude, and I know how you're going through a tough time right now, and it's NEVER okay for her to ever belittle you, but at the same time, trying to be somewhat positive, a lot of this really does sound like a lot of relationships I know with other guys and gals I know. Mothers in law are notorious for taking the daughter's side and to blow things out of proportion. And a ton of women tell their mums EVERYTHING. Seriously, everything!

If they're narcissistic and self centred, well that's different, and may be the deal breaker right there. But most of the other issues you've pointed out are pretty normal of relationships in general. And re-establishing some of your own stereotypes you're trying to live by would help you too. Like honestly, there's no real guy thing or taking charge any more. It's kinda old chivalry at work and honestly, dude, there's not too many women who take too kindly to stuff like that today. Not all girls even like when you pay for everything at dinner or movies on first dates because they don't want to be "bought property" or whatever. So maybe what you both need to do is take a time out and write down what you don't like that the other person does. Maybe you'll find overlap and establish that there's things you both do that lead to annoying the other and that was just in establishing your own stereotype view of what a man or woman should do or be.  Has that been suggested at therapy?

Ok, that took me a second to understand. I *think* what you're saying is while you're transitioning to male your girlfriend is transitioning to female?

Transitioning (as I am sure you're aware of) takes a considerable amount of time but more so mentally than physically. Maybe she is having problems letting go of certain stereotypically masculine things that she liked doing. Why shouldn't she be allowed to still do them if she wants to?

Keep in mind that I do not subscribe to stereotypical gender roles in my relationship but I can tell you that it has worked for us for almost a decade. I do the dishes and laundry 99% of the time (gasp). My cis female gf takes out the trash and changes the oil in the car (oh the humanity). It has always been like this and it works for us.

Why do you feel like you have to change the order of things in your home for you to feel like or be seen "as the man"? In my experience if you have to assert that "I AM THE MAN" it's going to come off as comical. Of course you're a man...you always were. Why flip everything upside down with someone when it was working all along?

Oh, and it's sexy when a girl wears her man's t shirt to bed. Tomboys are cute...lighten up a little.

OP:

Did you come out after your wife did? And you two were married as a 'regular' man and wife couple? Did she always know you were trans? I wonder if there may be some element of 'ownership of transness' on her part. Just an idea. And just because she's trans herself doesn't mean she's not having difficulty with your transition. We have a dual transition couple on here: Cynthia and Sevan. They may be able to help.

Also, if your spouse was used to being seen as a traditional 'husband', she may very well be having a hard time letting it go. As Simon said, just because you're now the man in the relationship doesn't mean a total role reversal. Unless you both want it. I know she said she did and that's frustrating. But I would just let her do the things she's best at and you do the things you're best at.

Quote from: Simon on June 27, 2013, 05:50:31 PM
Ok, that took me a second to understand. I *think* what you're saying is while you're transitioning to male your girlfriend is transitioning to female?

Transitioning (as I am sure you're aware of) takes a considerable amount of time but more so mentally than physically. Maybe she is having problems letting go of certain stereotypically masculine things that she liked doing. Why shouldn't she be allowed to still do them if she wants to?

Keep in mind that I do not subscribe to stereotypical gender roles in my relationship but I can tell you that it has worked for us for almost a decade. I do the dishes and laundry 99% of the time (gasp). My cis female gf takes out the trash and changes the oil in the car (oh the humanity). It has always been like this and it works for us.

Why do you feel like you have to change the order of things in your home for you to feel like or be seen "as the man"? In my experience if you have to assert that "I AM THE MAN" it's going to come off as comical. Of course you're a man...you always were. Why flip everything upside down with someone when it was working all along?

Oh, and it's sexy when a girl wears her man's t shirt to bed. Tomboys are cute...lighten up a little.

Yes, she's MTF and I'm FTM.

I wouldn't mind her occasionally wearing my guy clothes and whatnot. It can be sexy and cute. I don't even mind if she's wearing them just because she wants to. What usually happens though, is once she wears something of mine she WON'T give it back. Not in a cute, teasing way but she will take it and hide it when she's not using it. Some of these clothes are stuff I bought with my own money or clothing I told her not to wear because they were special to me. (Like a shirt I got from my brother before he moved out of state, or lingerie I bought for myself to impress her when presenting as female and she was presenting as male.)

I'm sure you could say "Well, why don't you take it back when you find it?" Even when IF I do find it, she either steals it again during laundry day or won't stop bitching and moaning about how I'm stealing "her" stuff if she catches me wearing it. I can even sharpie my name on the tags but she still claims it's "her" stuff. I literally went from 6 pairs of jeans to just 2 because she took them all and refuses to give them back.

As for the "order" of things in the household, it was not me who brought it up. I don't mind it either way, how it is now or how it will be or whatnot. I just want to be sure of my role in the household be it "the man" of the house or "the woman" of the house. However, the problem mostly is that she's still struggling with just not treating me as a guy but still expecting the whole she-bang with being treated as a girl. I would think it's unfair that when I use proper pronouns with her (when she's ok with it), she doesn't give me the same benefit and correcting her gets a snotty response back or claims I'm being "sensitive".

Ahhh, ok now I gotcha. I wouldn't put up with someone who is whiny, basically steals my things, is selfish, and won't even address me in the correct manner. Good luck changing someone like that.

Quote from: Fitter Admin on June 27, 2013, 06:32:10 PM
OP:

Did you come out after your wife did? And you two were married as a 'regular' man and wife couple? Did she always know you were trans? I wonder if there may be some element of 'ownership of transness' on her part. Just an idea. And just because she's trans herself doesn't mean she's not having difficulty with your transition. We have a dual transition couple on here: Cynthia and Sevan. They may be able to help.

Also, if your spouse was used to being seen as a traditional 'husband', she may very well be having a hard time letting it go. As Simon said, just because you're now the man in the relationship doesn't mean a total role reversal. Unless you both want it. I know she said she did and that's frustrating. But I would just let her do the things she's best at and you do the things you're best at.

She's known as long as we've been together (Roughly 4 years) that I've never identified as a female but I just stuck with the label as genderfluid instead of trans since I was too terrified to be completely honest about my deep issues with my gender. And the "when" I came out, we came out the same day to one another with me being first to say so and her following shortly after. As for us being a "regular" couple, I wouldn't say we are. If anything, we hold each other as equal for the most part but I often took the reigns when we struggled with something. She's never really seen herself as the traditional husband though she tried to do it the first few months of marriage.

In a way, she's trying to do both roles and I'm trying to still be a part of the marriage but I feel like I'm getting butted out as neither husband or wife. This has gone on for maybe 4+ months now and it's putting a rift in our marriage as my wife thinks I'm being "sensitive" when I try to explain how I'm feeling.

Wolfduality,

I'm sorry things aren't going smoothly for you and your wife, it definitely sounds like a double standard...her expecting you to treat her in the manner she wishes and yet then not respecting you in the same way. I add another vote for going to counseling because it sounds like you may need a mediator of sorts to hopefully enlighten your wife as to how unfair it sounds like she's being. She may honestly not realize, maybe try again to sit down with her and explain how much it hurts you when she doesn't respect you for the man you are.
With that said.....her saying she wanted to be the ultimate stay at home girly housewife and then she began applying for fulltime jobs, well; I hate to say this but uh, women often change their minds and some even do things just to 'prove' that they're capable of it. Is it possible since you've taken over the role of 'man of the house' that she's feeling a little panicky about her now more submissive role and your more dominant one? You know this, but marriage is hard work and often times we don't know exactly what we want or the role we want to take in a marriage until we're in it. Maybe being the stay at home housewife just wasn't what she thought it would be and she misses having the upper hand somewhat.

I'm wishing both of you luck in your marriage and no matter what just keep communication open between the two of you!

Oh, yeah, her stealing all your clothes.....uh, yeah i'd be open to sharing I guess; but it sounds like she's being more 'this is the way it is' without any compromise on her part. It sucks when you have to worry if your clothes are going to be in your closet the next day!

Quote from: spring0721 on June 27, 2013, 06:42:14 PM
Wolfduality,

I'm sorry things aren't going smoothly for you and your wife, it definitely sounds like a double standard...her expecting you to treat her in the manner she wishes and yet then not respecting you in the same way. I add another vote for going to counseling because it sounds like you may need a mediator of sorts to hopefully enlighten your wife as to how unfair it sounds like she's being. She may honestly not realize, maybe try again to sit down with her and explain how much it hurts you when she doesn't respect you for the man you are.
With that said.....her saying she wanted to be the ultimate stay at home girly housewife and then she began applying for fulltime jobs, well; I hate to say this but uh, women often change their minds and some even do things just to 'prove' that they're capable of it. Is it possible since you've taken over the role of 'man of the house' that she's feeling a little panicky about her now more submissive role and your more dominant one? You know this, but marriage is hard work and often times we don't know exactly what we want or the role we want to take in a marriage until we're in it. Maybe being the stay at home housewife just wasn't what she thought it would be and she misses having the upper hand somewhat.

I'm wishing both of you luck in your marriage and no matter what just keep communication open between the two of you!

I don't mind the working fulltime thing. If anything, it takes off some stress since two incomes means we'll be able to live more comfortably. The problem really is being told "Oh yeah, I'll stay home love. Don't worry!" And now that she's going to be working, my boss has debated dropping my hours even more or refuses to schedule me more consistently so childcare could be worked in more easily. (I work all day and she's applying for early mornings.) So, it might end up shooting us in the foot because we would have to pay for childcare if we're both working. Not only that, but I'm going to school this fall so I'm worried it will really screw us over for us both to work.

I wouldn't mind it so much but she seems to think I have to work around her but she's not suppose to work around me. We really need a communication therapist or something.

Yeah, as a few posts have identified, communication seems to be a big problem here.

One would think that with her being MTF, she would understand the importance of treating you as yourself. But, that's not always the case. I know some trans women who just don't get me AT ALL. I know one who sees me as more "genderfluid" because I don't fit every masculine stereotype, and who is pretty inconsiderate when it comes to pointing out every physical feature I have that is not masculine. It's hurtful, but she doesn't understand why because she has a different experience and is concerned with aspects of her own transition first and foremost.

But there can be understanding too and perhaps the two of you can develop that. My best friend is a trans woman, and for the most part she understands how I feel about myself and how I want to be treated, but sometimes she misses the mark. It's not because she doesn't care about me or see me as male, I think it's because she doesn't understand all the things that make me dysphoric. And why would she, straight off the bat? I'm also certain that I have said things that wouldn't matter to her were she a cis woman, but make her dysphoric because of events in her past or associations in her mind. And sometimes those initial misunderstandings can cause a pang of dysphoria, but it doesn't matter. I can't speak for how she feels about communicating with me as I don't entirely know, but I can say how it goes with me. First, I had to allow myself to trust her enough to be open with my feelings, and talk honestly with her when something bothers me, which is difficult for anyone. And second, she's earned that trust because she always listens. Sometimes she understands, and sometimes she doesn't, but she is always willing to keep herself open and try, and that's really what it comes down to. Mutual respect. I do hope that your wife will start making an effort to listen and show more respect for your feelings, even if she doesn't understand them straight off. Everyone has differences, and they can't be avoided, but what matters imo is how you handle those differences.