Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Hello everyone,

As I've heard several opposite things, I'd like to clear up my mind.

What are the effect of taking pills of testosterone if you are a man ?
Could testosterone reduce the feeling of being a woman, for a man ?

I'm asking a lot of question about myself, and I would like to browse "all" the ways.
I hope I didn't offend anyone with my questions. :-\

In advance, thank you to all.

If You are hoping that taking T or other androgens will make You stop feeling trans, then I have read that this does not work. Given that the hypothesis about issues of prenatal exposure to hormones is the main reason for GD later in life, that would actually make sense, because we do have that "original" female brain from that stage when we were a female fetus, it is wired as being female and T is not going to re-wire it to become a male brain.

They said that taking androgen could calm the dysphoria. I thought it works because of the effets on the brain.
And so, T could also have opposite effect on the brain.  ???

But I understand your explanation.

Sometimes, I fell very strange, :embarrassed: and I would like to not have this feeling anymore.

Quote from: Samyra on July 05, 2013, 06:28:48 AM
Hello everyone,

As I've heard several opposite things, I'd like to clear up my mind.

What are the effect of taking pills of testosterone if you are a man ?
Could testosterone reduce the feeling of being a woman, for a man ?

I'm asking a lot of question about myself, and I would like to browse "all" the ways.
I hope I didn't offend anyone with my questions. :-\

In advance, thank you to all.

I take testosterone supps, and can vary dose, and was born with testes, but don't have them now.  A lot of the effects are psychogenic (i.e. mind over matter).  A surge of the hormone makes gym easier, riding and exercise easier, and I find I'm more likely to go 'grrrr' at a red traffic light.  Also have periods where you get sexed up more than normal.....

About 'feeling like a man'.   When I lost my bollicks and the rest, at first I didn't feel as 'manly' as I used to.  A lot of shame.  Change rooms, and 'where's the bulge in my pants', and all of that.  Knowing they're missing is a psychogenic footprint, but it's weird, cause I know my mind's doing it.  I'm getting surgical replacements --

But, there's been an awakening as I've pondered what 'male' means at the psychological level.  I'm associating 'visual cues' and 'shape' with an experience of 'gender'.  Funny thing, no-one except me and anyone who knows what happened thinks twice.  Ya know also - the thought of having a 'bionic phallus' replacement (i.e. the whole prosthesis thing) - um - was an aphrodisiac!  Go figure.  :) That one's about an association of 'potency' with biological function of the phallus....

Mind over matter for all ...

It would likely work the wrong way-- make you feel more dysphoric (as Emily says it's more of a deep brain thing-- yes they effect the brain but perhaps not that deeply). The other thing for FTMs T makes you feel more the way you feel you should feel and anti-androgens make MTFs feel that way.

I'd gather that this was once a "treatment" for being trans btw. I often see this idea in the comments section (it's often one of the nicer ones sadly).

--Jay

Quote from: aleon515 on July 05, 2013, 03:49:05 PM
I'd gather that this was once a "treatment" for being trans btw. I often see this idea in the comments section (it's often one of the nicer ones sadly).

My mother said this one too - "Maybe instead of getting female hormones, he (yeah, I am still her "boy") needs a decent dose of androgens in his brain?"
That kinda did hurt more than the rest of things she said.

What is the difference between androgen and T ?

Quote from: Samyra on July 06, 2013, 06:58:50 AM
What is the difference between androgen and T ?

An androgen is the general term for any chemical, natural or synthetic, that is associated with generation and maintenance of male characteristics.  The term subsumes a group of compounds.

Testosterone is a specific androgen.

Thank you for this explanation.  ;D

Quote from: Samyra on July 06, 2013, 08:16:18 AM
Thank you for this explanation.  ;D

:)

When I was being treated for depression, we discovered I had low testosterone. Easy fix, just get some androderm patches and my T levels will increase. I found that I could wear the patch for just a few hours before anxiety and an overall feeling of disgust took over.

This was before I knew I was trans.

Even though this was my experience, I'd think everyone would tolerate or reject any hormones in their own way, because it affects so much of the person.

As Testosterone increases the male sex drive the observed effect on most Male to Female transitioners is to hugely INCREASE the level of dysphoria and discomfort, in some cases to the point of suicide. This is because it is when sexually aroused that the person will become most acutely aware of the differences between their actual and desired sexual characteristics. This effect was observed by proper research into the condition conducted in the 1960's in the UK and indeed was part of the reason that such attempts at chemically reparative treatment was discontinued in that country.

Quote from: Ms. OBrien CVT on July 06, 2013, 10:22:38 AM
As Testosterone increases the male sex drive the observed effect on most Male to Female transitioners is to hugely INCREASE the level of dysphoria and discomfort, in some cases to the point of suicide. This is because it is when sexually aroused that the person will become most acutely aware of the differences between their actual and desired sexual characteristics. This effect was observed by proper research into the condition conducted in the 1960's in the UK and indeed was part of the reason that such attempts at chemically reparative treatment was discontinued in that country.

.....ah, I see :) makes sense.  When you need sexual contact the most, you'll become acutely more aware of differences between actual and desired sexual characteristics...

but I'm still struggling to understand:

As Testosterone increases the male sex drive the observed effect on most Male to Female transitioners is to hugely INCREASE the level of dysphoria and discomfort

Does testosterone rise in MTF, or falls.  I'd have imagined that it would fall?

Cheers
stav

Testosterone can be naturally high or low, depending on many factors--age, genetics, etc (the "normal" range for T in males is ~250--1100 (I forget the units, however) (In comparison, typical female T levels are about 70-90)). Some pre-HRT MtF's have quite high testosterone levels, but this does not make them "men", it makes them have physical male characteristics and the physical sex drive...which drives them NUTS (no pun intended). Others have quite low T levels...this is still bad though, because any significant T levels will change the pre-pubescent body to a male form, and confuse the mind in difficult ways.

Upon taking an anti-androgen (Spiro, etc) T levels typically fall dramatically. (Of course, one would not take an anti-androgen and T at the same time.)

Just my personal experience, but my dysphoria was at its absolute worst during my teenage years, when my T levels were at their natural highest. I HATED the sex drive, I HATED feeling angry all the time, I HATED how obsessive my mind became, and I HATED that it seemed to render me incapable of feeling the emotions that I felt like I should be having... there were many times where I was so sad, and I realized that I should be crying, and yet I couldn't.

Seeing as how MtF transsexualism has been tied to a lack of T exposure during fetal development, it's not a matter of correcting an adult hormonal imbalance, it's a matter of our brains never being hardwired to run on it in the first place.

All I know is that I felt 100% "right" in the head through my entire childhood. Once I entered puberty, for the first time, something felt "wrong." It didn't feel like my brain was working right anymore. There was always this feeling of "wrongness" in my head in regards to how my mind worked. And then, after 14 years of having that feeling of "wrongness," I went on T-blockers and E, and for the first time since I was a kid, I felt "right" in the head again. It finally felt like my emotions and thought patterns and the base "feel" of how my mind worked actually matched its genetic programming again.

You all have told us very rewarding stories. Thank you.
I do not think testosterone had such strong effects.

I fell like a girl, but I don't know if I am truly ready to change. I'm looking for others possibilities.
In my situation, take T seems not being the good solution.

I really learned a lot of things  ;)

Quote from: Samyra on July 06, 2013, 05:45:09 PM
You all have told us very rewarding stories. Thank you.
I do not think testosterone had such strong effects.

I fell like a girl, but I don't know if I am truly ready to change. I'm looking for others possibilities.
In my situation, take T seems not being the good solution.

I really learned a lot of things  ;)

There's a lot of possibilities that one could choose. Taking hormones and surgery are permanent, so they are the last things to consider.

Talk it over with a therapist, to rule out any other issues that might be clouding things...severe depression, etc. Then, do things very slowly, and at your own speed.

Some ideas:

Get earrings (pierced ears).
Grow your hair out.
Shave or wax body hair (arms, legs, chest, etc). Don't grow a beard or mustache (if you have one, shave it off).
Shape your eyebrows (threading or waxing).
Buy neutral or women's shoes (sandals, "flats", etc. Not high heels).
Buy a couple articles of women's clothes (capris, skirt, blouse...and underwear).

Try some or all of these things, see how well you adapt, if you feel comfortable with them. If you do, keep it. If you don't, stop. All of it is temporary and won't harm you if done. After all this...if you still feel like you're a girl...then seek out the possibility of hormones.

One step at a time.

Good luck!

:)

Quote from: Samyra on July 05, 2013, 07:02:24 AM
They said that taking androgen could calm the dysphoria. I thought it works because of the effets on the brain.
And so, T could also have opposite effect on the brain.  ???

But I understand your explanation.

Sometimes, I fell very strange, :embarrassed: and I would like to not have this feeling anymore.

f

Hi Samyra,

After reading all the replies, I have an idea.

I understand that dysphoria elevates as body testosterone rises (or as artificial supplements cause) rises.  One poster associated the elevation to peaks in T, sex drive, and the appearance of unwanted characteristics.  Another to in-utero under-exposure of T during gestation, and so the brain was never hard-wired to work with T.  Restoring childhood levels of T with T blockers and estrogen supps fixed things.

My idea should work for both theories.

Another poster pointed out that the body goes through big shifts in T, over time.  As I've lost my genitals in a terrible tragedy, I've been talking with my doctors, a lot about 'what levels' I should have and when, and what triggers changes in levels.

My idea is keep an eye out on how your feelings change as T rises and falls, naturally.  For bodily-produced T, there's about a 25-50% change in T over what they call a 'diurnal cycle' (day-night), then add in stress, hungriness, food types.  You should feel T spikes in the body, especially in connection with peaks in sexual arousal, drops when focussed on studies or a task that keeps you off thinking about human relations, and when hungry.  Some foods trigger the body more than others to make T, such as eggs.  Also--if you're confronted by a threat that gets you *angry* that triggers T release (to get you ready to 'do battle').  Fighting over territory (e.g. scaring off a neighbours cat that constantly comes at night and rats out your own cat, so you go in to do battle for your cat--that will trigger some too :) ).

Someone told you that T therapy would fix your feelings.  You may find out yourself by working with your body's rhythms.....that way, you don't have to go through extra terrible discomfort, through supplements, should your feelings worsen as your body's natural T peaks.....

Does this all make sense? 

Kind Regards
stav

Thank for your ideas Beth Andrea.

I've tried for one week now. I will see if it's enough for me.  :)
I really want to find what I really need.


Stavraky, I will keep a close eye on my testosterone level and my feeling. For sure, knowing this link on me will answers severals questions.  :D
Maybe, I will finally understand myself.


The easiest thing would be to take T and see, but it can be found in a super market.  ;D

Quote from: Samyra on July 10, 2013, 09:23:01 AM
The easiest thing would be to take T and see, but it can be found in a super market.  ;D

I'd hazard a guess and suggest that this is probably the worst thing you could do..

Quote from: Kelly the Trans-Rebel on July 10, 2013, 09:51:37 AM
I'd hazard a guess and suggest that this is probably the worst thing you could do..

For sure. I totally agree with you. Despite it is easy to do, it's really dangerous to do that.
It was just a joke.  :D

Quote from: Samyra on July 10, 2013, 09:23:01 AM
Thank for your ideas Beth Andrea.

I've tried for one week now. I will see if it's enough for me.  :)
I really want to find what I really need.


Stavraky, I will keep a close eye on my testosterone level and my feeling. For sure, knowing this link on me will answers severals questions.  :D
Maybe, I will finally understand myself.


The easiest thing would be to take T and see, but it can be found in a super market.  ;D

I hear ya :)  Self-understanding's a life-long journey.  There is no endpoint, and the mystery is a long, sometimes painful, but amazing journey if you keep ur faith in urself and trust to the higher-purpose as you look for that and allow that in your life.

I had an ex who used to take testosterone supps.  And in my prescribed testosterone, what I can say is that I get more like I'm a gladiator (mentally) when the levels are higher.  My grief and sense of loss go through a shift, and transpose to dynamism, purpose, and real focus.  I cope more easily with being rejected!  Go figure that one!  I can't.

I'm not sure how much is psychogenic (mind over matter) and how much is biogenic (basic biology), or that some of it is not our basic beliefs about biology.  So that, when I take a higher dose of testosterone I 'believe' that there is an effect on my thinking, which triggers the effect on my thinking.

'They' (the elusive 'they' :) ) call that the 'placebo effect'.  I'm curious to know more about placebo trials and testosterone, and suspect there is data about this in the literature.  Though, I also add that there is certainly some biogenic component.  After all, I grew chest hair, and wider shoulders and my voice dropped when I  was in puberty.  I should try to go off testosterone for a week or four to see what happens, though if my brain structure changed too, at puberty, that won't be reversible....

VERY interesting post! And an excellent question!

I have wondered (and still do wonder) whether what I need is actually testosterone and not estrogen! Perhaps the testosterone will over-ride any feminine mental attributes? In the same way that testosterone masculinises the androgynous body of a young boy during puberty (the rise in testosterone irons out any physical or mental femininity)?

I had stunted growth as a kid, which has resulted in parts of my body being pre-pubescent right up until my mid-twenties. Oddly, I've had perfect sexual functioning and a masculinised face, yet my build was strikingly androgynous (no male or female fat distribution), delicate bones etc. In a dress with a push-up bra, my body had the shape and trim-ness of a petite and slim teenage girl and my skin was smooth as silk. Lately, I've put on male fat and extra muscle and my skin is a little coarser, so that's ruined my androgyny quite a lot. Interestingly, despite now looking "normal" for a male-body, I'm pretty depressed and fed up. I miss being delicate. Had my face been pretty, I'd have given Andre Pejic a serious run for their money, most likely. Although I'm a Hobbit sized 5ft 6", so wouldn't have been model material anyway lol.

Anywho! I'm wondering if I have low T. My doctor says that my T levels are "normal", and mid-range. I have had two tests recently with the same results. However...perhaps the delayed growth mean that my brain needs to masculinise more? Perhaps part of my brain is still pre-pubescent!!  :-\

My finger digits show a noticeable longer index finger, and my face has noticeable feminized bone structure. Plus my skin has always seemed very sensitive and smooth... So perhaps I was highly exposed to estrogen in the womb? (and therefore might be "programmed" to run on estrogen?  ::)

I posted on here recently about being gender-confused and having stunted growth, but got only a few replies. So it doesn't appear that there have been any others on these forums with both stunted-growth and transexuality. Surely this can't be the case??

Would be interesting to hear back from those who have taken T to "correct" their transexualism, as it were.

there is a natural hormone cycle anyway. there are times when men have a naturally elevated T level.
you notice an increased aggression and increased libido.
it's worth asking how you feel around the times when your libido increases.
personally, I find it very difficult to control my urges, I seek out the company of a woman, but then I cannot perform as expected.  I just want to hold her and explore her body and try and ignore my own body.
it's like, as my libido increases, I become more focused on sex, but it changes into a yearning to be more womanly.
not sure if that makes sense actually.

Quote from: theirrationaldress on August 04, 2013, 08:51:31 AM
Would be interesting to hear back from those who have taken T to "correct" their transexualism, as it were.

Hello theirrationaldress,

I've read taking T make you growner, but there are two different points of views. One which says it's impossible to correct your feeling with T, the other which thinks as T make you more "agressive" in a way, it could helps to decrease your female feelings.

I'm still looking for the correct answer. I admit it's a little bit hard for me to accept there is no way to be a "normal guy". For the moment, I hope I'll find a kind of treatment because I don't think I'm strong enought to be/live as a girl.

T would probably make you more aggressive.
but if you are feeling dysphoria, then it may increase along with the feelings of aggression.
you may feel more frustrated within yourself and have times of depression.

so you said you aren't strong enough to live as a girl... but you know, many girls live like guys :)
I want to correct my body to be that of a woman, but I want to continue to live the way I currently do. I don't think there is anything wrong with that.
what do you think?

  With myself and the anecdotal results here and elsewhere with high T levels does not relieve the GID symptoms.  My symptoms were relieved after more than 60 days on HRT.  T does help some men and women with low levels.  Both sexes T levels drop past age 50, with some at a much earlier age.  The T treatment varies on the low levels though. 

  Joelene

Quote from: Yuki-jker86 on August 04, 2013, 10:23:07 AM
there is a natural hormone cycle anyway. there are times when men have a naturally elevated T level.
you notice an increased aggression and increased libido.
it's worth asking how you feel around the times when your libido increases.
personally, I find it very difficult to control my urges, I seek out the company of a woman, but then I cannot perform as expected.  I just want to hold her and explore her body and try and ignore my own body.
it's like, as my libido increases, I become more focused on sex, but it changes into a yearning to be more womanly.
not sure if that makes sense actually.

Actually, that makes an eerie amount of sense.

I would love to read up on T supplimentation in MTFs. I remember taking T boosting herbs that got me feeling very not so lovely. It would be nice to see the science connected with it.

Quote from: Yuki-jker86 on August 06, 2013, 04:28:16 PM
so you said you aren't strong enough to live as a girl... but you know, many girls live like guys :)
I want to correct my body to be that of a woman, but I want to continue to live the way I currently do. I don't think there is anything wrong with that.
what do you think?

You probably right.
I'm just afraid to upset my whole life.  :-\

Quote from: Yuki-jker86 on August 06, 2013, 04:28:16 PM
I want to correct my body to be that of a woman, but I want to continue to live the way I currently do. I don't think there is anything wrong with that.
what do you think?

Ideally that should be the outcome of transition. You are the same person, same body (although a bit altered), Your personality has underwent some shifts due to estrogen exposure but it is still You... You just continue Your life, adjusting the details, but, in the essence, nothing has changed. Of course, there are those sad scenarios when families get separated, children disowned, jobs lost... which ultimately may lead to significant changes in Your life. But You are You, nevertheless.

Quote from: Ms. OBrien CVT on July 06, 2013, 10:22:38 AM
As Testosterone increases the male sex drive the observed effect on most Male to Female transitioners is to hugely INCREASE the level of dysphoria and discomfort, in some cases to the point of suicide. This is because it is when sexually aroused that the person will become most acutely aware of the differences between their actual and desired sexual characteristics. This effect was observed by proper research into the condition conducted in the 1960's in the UK and indeed was part of the reason that such attempts at chemically reparative treatment was discontinued in that country.

I've thought about the idea that maybe T could take this away from me several times in the past too, but reading this thread, particularly the quoted post, I realize that would be very bad. For one thing, I've always had low T. It's what I know. Trying to elevate it isn't going to make me feel better. It's going to make me feel weird.

The reason I quoted this post is because of the part about increased sexual arousal. The most common way I talk myself out of being trans is the fact that I notice the dysphoria so much more when I am aroused, which is pretty often since despite my low T I still have a very high libido, so I end up deciding this is just sexual for me. Then I spend a few days walking around as a woman without any arousal and realize I'm an idiot. Not to mention that I really wish this arousal stuff would stop. I'm pretty sure T would make it happen more, not less.

Quote from: Emily Aster on August 07, 2013, 09:07:49 AM
The reason I quoted this post is because of the part about increased sexual arousal. The most common way I talk myself out of being trans is the fact that I notice the dysphoria so much more when I am aroused, which is pretty often since despite my low T I still have a very high libido, so I end up deciding this is just sexual for me. Then I spend a few days walking around as a woman without any arousal and realize I'm an idiot. Not to mention that I really wish this arousal stuff would stop. I'm pretty sure T would make it happen more, not less.

As a woman, how do you feel about your sexuality? With no libido, it would be boring, wouldn't it?

Quote from: Samyra on August 08, 2013, 03:41:50 AM
As a woman, how do you feel about your sexuality? With no libido, it would be boring, wouldn't it?

personally, I would welcome a loss of libido. There is so much more in life than sex. I think it's much more satisfying to share.

Quote from: Samyra on August 08, 2013, 03:41:50 AM
As a woman, how do you feel about your sexuality? With no libido, it would be boring, wouldn't it?

Well, while I figure out this whole gender thing, I've completely stopped dating so at this point, not getting aroused at the drop of a hat would be a major blessing. But I don't know how I'd feel about it if I do transition. Not having it may make things worse. I don't know.

I never suffered a loss of libido - but I did find what I wanted changed..

From my own early perspective, taking T won't help offset TG feelings (unless you're FTM). I had mine tested last year during my physical and it came back in a healthy range, but on the really high side. I can say High-T for a this aspiring TG woman doesn't make me feel any less dysphoric, I am just glad my body doesn't seem to respond all that well given I've never been able to put on much muscle. No matter how high my T, I am always going feel TG.

Amy

More interesting comments!

Samyra - I feel the same way regarding the whole sexual aspect. I convince myself it is just sexual, but then that's only when I'm actually aroused. When I just dress and enjoy being feminine, there's no sexual aspect either. However, I'm not entirely unconvinced that my mind is well and truly broken and my sex drive, personality and identity are all collapsing as a result.

I noticed a sudden shift two years ago now whereby my facial hair got thicker, head hair seriously began to thin, yet increased muscle growth and aggression, so I presume this was a spike/rise in T? Since then I haven't had random feelings of happiness.

However, could these be the symptoms of "somatopause" (when your human growth hormone - HGH- levels begin to drop)?

As the growth hormone drops, I presume it leaves the body more exposed to the damage that can be the by-product of testosterone and other androgens (such as thinning hair by DHT, coarse skin etc etc).

I wish I knew which was my enemy - is it a rise in testosterone or a reduction in HGH? Hmmm