Susan's Place Transgender Resources

    We see so many posts by MtF and FtM's passing in public though usually passing isn't a concern for those of us who present androgynously, yesterday was one of those typical days for me. The weather here has been very summery and mid-70's pleasant and I went shopping and later to Starbucks for a coffee and light lunch. I have been growing my hair back out from my previous buzz cut with the help of a stylist. It's become rather sparse on top and so to avoid a sunburn I wore a baseball cap with a rakish crush on the bill, my now silver hair upswept on the sides and poofed in the back and had on my aviator sunglasses. I was wearing a blue hawaiian style cotton short sleeved shirt with white flowers over a woman's white scoop necked tank top. The shirt worn with tails out was unbuttoned well below the scoop neck exposing the top of my cleavage. Below that were some Levi 511 skinny dark denim jeans, I prefer them because they have deep enough pockets for a wallet as opposed to women's jeans, though they fit just as snugly and since I don't have a big "package" sans kahones I can wear them high in the crotch female mode. I was shod in a pair of rather unique brown leather Clarks sandals.
    You might say what's so unusual about this? Well it is the subtile ambiguity of the picture as a whole that makes it work. I get more double takes and "Hi's" from men and long looks, smiles and extended eye contact from women of all ages that it is totally satisfying and makes my day just perfect.


(It would help if I spelled subtleties correctly)  :icon_redface:

That is awesome, Shan!

:)

Thank your for this post! I love reading about what you wore and how you thought through an androgyne presentation.

Wish there was a safe place to share photos.

Quote from: blue on July 23, 2013, 11:44:16 AM
Thank your for this post! I love reading about what you wore and how you thought through an androgyne presentation.

Wish there was a safe place to share photos.

There is "Just for us" forum. Only registered members can access that forum.

Quote from: Shantel on July 23, 2013, 02:30:46 PM
There is "Just for us" forum. Only registered members can access that forum.

I can't seem to find it. Maybe not accessble to all registered members, or I am really missing something.

Quote from: blue on July 24, 2013, 03:42:31 PM
I can't seem to find it. Maybe not accessble to all registered members, or I am really missing something.

I spoke too soon, it was just shut down, it's only going to be available to those who are subscribing. Susan has a ton of out of pocket expenses into this website and has been supporting it on her own all these years and has come to the place where she needs a little help from the membership as they are able which is more than fair. Frankly I'm amazed that she hasn't asked for membership financial participation a lot sooner.

Quote from: Shantel on July 20, 2013, 10:27:24 AM
    You might say what's so unusual about this? Well it is the subtile ambiguity of the picture as a whole that makes it work. I get more double takes and "Hi's" from men and long looks, smiles and extended eye contact from women of all ages that it is totally satisfying and makes my day just perfect.

I love your description Shantel. I've had similar experiences if I go out in men's clothes but have maybe some sort of female accessory, it's like it takes people longer to figure out what they're seeing.

I also saw this gorgeous andro guy (I know he's a bio male, he was my barista for awhile) a few months ago in line at Starbucks wearing girl sandals, these fabulous female shorts that were the kind that has a high waste, a button up blouse tied at his navel, bright red lipstick, yet half his head was clipped really short short while the other side was long with a nice taper in the back. I could tell people who didn't know him was trying to figure out his sex, but he seemed to be completely enjoying himself and totally comfortable with who he is. [I am just using "he" since I think he identifies as male from my brief encounters with him, though I've never asked]. When I was younger, I had a similar haircut, though the long side wasn't nearly as long as his was, I think it's a creative way of showing the female and male in yourself.

Quote from: LearnedHand on July 24, 2013, 05:24:03 PM
I love your description Shantel. I've had similar experiences if I go out in men's clothes but have maybe some sort of female accessory, it's like it takes people longer to figure out what they're seeing.

I like to keep tweak the casual observers brains and keep them guessing. Most of our brothers and sisters outside of this forum would have a hard time with it, I smile and exude an outgoing personality so it works well for me and I enjoy it. Not everyone is able to pull it off and be comfortable.

Quote from: LearnedHand on July 24, 2013, 05:24:03 PM
I also saw this gorgeous andro guy (I know he's a bio male, he was my barista for awhile) a few months ago in line at Starbucks wearing girl sandals, these fabulous female shorts that were the kind that has a high waste, a button up blouse tied at his navel, bright red lipstick, yet half his head was clipped really short short while the other side was long with a nice taper in the back. I could tell people who didn't know him was trying to figure out his sex, but he seemed to be completely enjoying himself and totally comfortable with who he is. [I am just using "he" since I think he identifies as male from my brief encounters with him, though I've never asked]. When I was younger, I had a similar haircut, though the long side wasn't nearly as long as his was, I think it's a creative way of showing the female and male in yourself.

Sounds like a real colorful type, Starbucks is a rather progressive employer allowing for personal expression like that. Perhaps you might engage that person in conversation at some point and congratulate him on his presentation. Who knows, you might have a new friend!

Quote from: Shantel on July 24, 2013, 04:18:32 PM
I spoke too soon, it was just shut down, it's only going to be available to those who are subscribing. Susan has a ton of out of pocket expenses into this website and has been supporting it on her own all these years and has come to the place where she needs a little help from the membership as they are able which is more than fair. Frankly I'm amazed that she hasn't asked for membership financial participation a lot sooner.

If you subscribe, maybe you could keep us posted if there is much androgyne participation over there? I would think there might not be, just so few of us.

Quote from: blue on July 25, 2013, 01:17:31 PM
If you subscribe, maybe you could keep us posted if there is much androgyne participation over there? I would think there might not be, just so few of us.

Unfortunately you are right on both counts. Ativan would attest to the fact that Androgyne was not even a forum here until recently considering the length of time Susan has had this site up and running. I'll have to give her loads of credit for being sensitive to the need and creating this forum.  As it stands now, no matter where you go you will find that we are a minority and often considered a fringe element by the militant MtF and Ftm types who have their eye focused specifically on gender and passing, wheras we are more interested in achieving a non-gender or mixed-gender specific persona for various and sometimes different personal reasons. We can post photos on this thread if we wish. I may eventually if I could get someone to take a few digital photos that I consider half way decent. Meanwhile, if you look around on some of the threads in this forum there are several good photos that have been posted by androgynous folks.

Quote from: Shantel on July 25, 2013, 04:43:18 PM
Unfortunately you are right on both counts. Ativan would attest to the fact that Androgyne was not even a forum here until recently considering the length of time Susan has had this site up and running. I'll have to give her loads of credit for being sensitive to the need and creating this forum.  As it stands now, no matter where you go you will find that we are a minority and often considered a fringe element by the militant MtF and Ftm types who have their eye focused specifically on gender and passing, wheras we are more interested in achieving a non-gender or mixed-gender specific persona for various and sometimes different personal reasons. We can post photos on this thread if we wish. I may eventually if I could get someone to take a few digital photos that I consider half way decent. Meanwhile, if you look around on some of the threads in this forum there are several good photos that have been posted by androgynous folks.

Thank you Shantel for taking care of this forum, reaching out and welcoming people and helping it to grow. It's really good to have a place to explore being andro in identity and presentation. The trajectories to androgyne seem to vary a lot, and androgyny seems to be a very personal mix and match of male and female traits... I'd expect a lot of diversity in androgyne personas. Am determined to see this as a creative opportunity not a problem, even if not passing as cis can be a very big problem (as well as a goal for some of us, at least some of the time!).

Keep it up Shan!  We need your educational perspectives even when you're just having a perfect day in the sunshine.  Androgyne, gender queer, and trans without the binary goals---now that's a bigger dose of freedom for me.

Thank you

Shantel you are awesome.

Quote from: dr girlfriend on July 26, 2013, 01:02:16 PM
Shantel you are awesome.

Auntie Shan is just here for her kids!  :D ;D :laugh: Thanks, we just want to have a sense of humor when we go out in the world and enjoy who we are without a lot of self generated internal fear and unwarranted concern about how we will be received by others.

Quote from: Shantel on July 26, 2013, 02:07:12 PM
Thanks, we just want to have a sense of humor when we go out in the world and enjoy who we are without a lot of self generated internal fear and unwarranted concern about how we will be received by others.

I've been trying to get to that place. I'm close to it at least!

Quote from: insideontheoutside on July 26, 2013, 11:00:14 PM
I've been trying to get to that place. I'm close to it at least!

When we reach the place where we are unconcerned about what others think or say, then we are no longer fair game for taunts and intimidation. When we are out in public places and we move our eyes around furtively and wonder about what others are thinking when they see us and act timid and fearful, some will invariably view it as an outward sign of insecurity, then we become a potential target for derision and negative remarks from social bullies. That dynamic changes dramatically when we make the choice to project a sense of self confidence and pride that shows in how we carry ourselves and in our outward attitude and behavior, then those obnoxious types who prey on the insecurities of those who are different from them lose interest in trying to emotionally intimidate because we have chosen to take their power over us away.

Quote from: Shantel on July 27, 2013, 10:11:23 AM
When we reach the place where we are unconcerned about what others think or say, then we are no longer fair game for taunts and intimidation. When we are out in public places and we move our eyes around furtively and wonder about what others are thinking when they see us and act timid and fearful, some will invariably view it as an outward sign of insecurity, then we become a potential target for derision and negative remarks from social bullies. That dynamic changes dramatically when we make the choice to project a sense of self confidence and pride that shows in how we carry ourselves and in our outward attitude and behavior, then those obnoxious types who prey on the insecurities of those who are different from them lose interest in trying to emotionally intimidate because we have chosen to take their power over us away.

I think there is tremendous social power in self confidence. That said, I don't want to blame the victims of harassment and discrimination, and I don't want to be blamed for the experiences I have had when people have not been able to read me and freaked out. So much depends on where you live.

Quote from: blue on July 27, 2013, 12:34:04 PM
I think there is tremendous social power in self confidence. That said, I don't want to blame the victims of harassment and discrimination, and I don't want to be blamed for the experiences I have had when people have not been able to read me and freaked out. So much depends on where you live.

It does to a certain extent, but then when someone "freaks out" at my appearance I can only conclude that they are having a problem that thankfully isn't mine and hopefully they can get over it. It entails developing a thicker hide and becoming impervious to the darts and arrows of one or two individuals unable to cope with reality. I know a lot of people aren't strong enough to do this easily, but it's do-able and something we can all work at achieving for our own serenity.

With all that said, where can I as an androgyne go to share/work on skills in coping with the freakouts? Not skills in coping with my hurt feelings that someone doesn't like me, I'm actually doing pretty good there. But skills in coping with the shunning, denials of access, threats and actual violence? Where I won't be blamed or shamed for my failure to pass as either a man or a woman? (Because I have had enough of that for a lifetime!)

Quote from: blue on July 27, 2013, 02:52:41 PM
With all that said, where can I as an androgyne go to share/work on skills in coping with the freakouts? Not skills in coping with my hurt feelings that someone doesn't like me, I'm actually doing pretty good there. But skills in coping with the shunning, denials of access, threats and actual violence? Where I won't be blamed or shamed for my failure to pass as either a man or a woman? (Because I have had enough of that for a lifetime!)

I don't have a good answer for you other than it's something we all have to develop on our own. I come from a situation which isn't common to this community. I spent two enlistments in the paratroops in my earlier life, it left me with a no-nonsense attitude which I'm told I somehow project just by my presence. My face is intentionally shaded in my avatar photo on purpose because I'm not an attractive feminine type, oftentimes being mistaken for an FtM or a lesbian dyke. There is no "how to" school here, wish it was that easy for those who could use the help! I'm sorry that you have suffered for just trying to be yourself. I live in Washington, one of the most liberal states just north of Seattle, still there are a fair share of Neanderthals here as well.

Quote from: Shantel on July 27, 2013, 05:14:07 PM
I don't have a good answer for you other than it's something we all have to develop on our own. I come from a situation which isn't common to this community. I spent two enlistments in the paratroops in my earlier life, it left me with a no-nonsense attitude which I'm told I somehow project just by my presence. My face is intentionally shaded in my avatar photo on purpose because I'm not an attractive feminine type, oftentimes being mistaken for an FtM or a lesbian dyke. There is no "how to" school here, wish it was that easy for those who could use the help! I'm sorry that you have suffered for just trying to be yourself. I live in Washington, one of the most liberal states just north of Seattle, still there are a fair share of Neanderthals here as well.

I guess this the challenge for all of us. I lie in small town western Canada and as free as I am here I still get deal with a lot of narrow minded ignorance. The most I can do is keep my chin up because i have nothing to be ashamed of (despite the fact of being raised in an atmosphere of shame for who I am).  That being said sometimes keeping your chin up will only take you so far. i have, unfortunately, had to learn to fight, in more ways than one. It is a fine line to walk between protecting yourself physically and not closing yourself off from people because of the few who would do you harm.

Quote from: jesseofthenorth on July 27, 2013, 07:23:56 PM
I guess this the challenge for all of us. I lie in small town western Canada and as free as I am here I still get deal with a lot of narrow minded ignorance. The most I can do is keep my chin up because i have nothing to be ashamed of (despite the fact of being raised in an atmosphere of shame for who I am).  That being said sometimes keeping your chin up will only take you so far. i have, unfortunately, had to learn to fight, in more ways than one. It is a fine line to walk between protecting yourself physically and not closing yourself off from people because of the few who would do you harm.

There will always be a few jerks to contend with. I have been challenged only once and in a loud voice offered him the opportunity to walk away. I carry a 4" razor sharp lock back buck knife with a hollow ground blade that I flicked open one handed rather quickly, he left. No-one should allow anyone to do them physical harm, when they know you aren't a helpless victim type, they leave you alone. Just don't let them get inside your comfort zone.

Note: I'm not an advocate of violence but we need to be prepared to take care of ourselves in the event someone commits a violent act against us. Police are always good at taking reports after the fact, so unless you don't have some kind of plan for self protection, you may as well stay at home where it's safe.

Quote from: Shantel on July 27, 2013, 10:11:23 AM
When we reach the place where we are unconcerned about what others think or say, then we are no longer fair game for taunts and intimidation. When we are out in public places and we move our eyes around furtively and wonder about what others are thinking when they see us and act timid and fearful, some will invariably view it as an outward sign of insecurity, then we become a potential target for derision and negative remarks from social bullies. That dynamic changes dramatically when we make the choice to project a sense of self confidence and pride that shows in how we carry ourselves and in our outward attitude and behavior, then those obnoxious types who prey on the insecurities of those who are different from them lose interest in trying to emotionally intimidate because we have chosen to take their power over us away.

Good advice. I've mentioned this sort of thing myself to plenty of other people. I used to live in L.A. and occasionally would find myself in "bad" parts of town, but never had a problem the 12 years I lived there. So I've got the overall outward confidence thing down. I'm just trying to be able to ditch my internal dislike (not fear) of some things about my body. As far as my outward appearance or how I choose to dress, I'm definitely closer to the "I don't care what external parties think" goal.

thus far i've managed to survive male clothing and a whole rainbow of different hair dyes, without looking intimidating at all. especially those hair dyes taught me that the best explanation for wearing green or pink hair tend to be "isn't it a nice color?" for clothing, it's more about comfort. no need to be so conscious about the whole gender thing, the less i speak of it, the less people will think of me as weirder than i really am. i wear dresses because i want to, and just the same with anything else.

"because i want to", "i like these clothes", "this hat's so cool".
come to think of it, those are the real reasons, my most honest opinions. much more than "being non-binary" would be a reason for dressing unconventionally.
and now i suddenly lost any sense of how gender is supposed to control anything about a person's preferences and expression... how does binary gender work again?

Quote from: Taka on July 30, 2013, 09:07:36 AM
thus far i've managed to survive male clothing and a whole rainbow of different hair dyes, without looking intimidating at all. especially those hair dyes taught me that the best explanation for wearing green or pink hair tend to be "isn't it a nice color?" for clothing, it's more about comfort. no need to be so conscious about the whole gender thing, the less i speak of it, the less people will think of me as weirder than i really am. i wear dresses because i want to, and just the same with anything else.

"because i want to", "i like these clothes", "this hat's so cool".
come to think of it, those are the real reasons, my most honest opinions. much more than "being non-binary" would be a reason for dressing unconventionally.
and now i suddenly lost any sense of how gender is supposed to control anything about a person's preferences and expression... how does binary gender work again?

Yup, right on Taka, you are just so you hon!  :eusa_clap:

Quote from: Taka on July 30, 2013, 09:07:36 AM
thus far i've managed to survive male clothing and a whole rainbow of different hair dyes, without looking intimidating at all. especially those hair dyes taught me that the best explanation for wearing green or pink hair tend to be "isn't it a nice color?" for clothing, it's more about comfort. no need to be so conscious about the whole gender thing, the less i speak of it, the less people will think of me as weirder than i really am. i wear dresses because i want to, and just the same with anything else.

"because i want to", "i like these clothes", "this hat's so cool".
come to think of it, those are the real reasons, my most honest opinions. much more than "being non-binary" would be a reason for dressing unconventionally.
and now i suddenly lost any sense of how gender is supposed to control anything about a person's preferences and expression... how does binary gender work again?

Same here!  I seriously forgot the "Man rules".  Like no nail polish and such.  Im going to have to make a check list for times when I need to be in "Man Mode". 

Like this guy:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.kym-cdn.com%2Fphotos%2Fimages%2Fmasonry%2F000%2F408%2F602%2F5d6.jpg&hash=4c9dfbef2921e045f8c2c76b9b1422a539246853)

Quote from: dr girlfriend on July 30, 2013, 10:17:47 AM
Same here!  I seriously forgot the "Man rules".  Like no nail polish and such.  Im going to have to make a check list for times when I need to be in "Man Mode". 

Like this guy:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.kym-cdn.com%2Fphotos%2Fimages%2Fmasonry%2F000%2F408%2F602%2F5d6.jpg&hash=4c9dfbef2921e045f8c2c76b9b1422a539246853)

That's a 10-4 good buddy!  ;D We do have our times and seasons both serious and goofy!

Quote from: dr girlfriend on July 30, 2013, 10:17:47 AM
Same here!  I seriously forgot the "Man rules".  Like no nail polish and such.  Im going to have to make a check list for times when I need to be in "Man Mode". 

i took me a while to get what you meant...

there are times when i'm expected to be in female mode. wearing female clothing doesn't help unfortunately, i still manage to forget that all the words women are called by men and other women also refer to me when i'm wearing a pretty dress.

Another thing I need to add to my list of things to forget about when in "girl mode" is shaving. I went to work today in a skirt (I am in desperate need to dropping pants off at the dry cleaners) and wore black nylons since I didn't shave my legs. One of my coworkers said "{Birth Name}! Why are you wearing nylons!?!?" So I said it's because I didn't shave my legs, then she picked up her leg (wearing capris) and said "she I didn't either, no one cares about shaving."

[now, she was just prickly, probably didn't shave in a few days. maybe it's different if there's no shaving in like a month or more, which I tend to do]

This is great, now I feel better about letting my eyebrows grow out and having furry legs, since no one really cares about these little subtleties. I would've never noticed that she didn't shave (and today I took a closer look and saw she doesn't pluck her brows) if she hadn't shown me her leg. I think overall, no one really notices these little things unless they're actively looking for them.  It's so easy to overthink things when we're trying to fit into a certain mode.

Quote from: blue on July 23, 2013, 11:44:16 AM
Thank your for this post! I love reading about what you wore and how you thought through an androgyne presentation.

Wish there was a safe place to share photos.

Actually, there is a safe place.  I created it just for my friends here.

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,145701.new.html#new (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,145701.new.html#new)

I have set my blog so that it can not be seen by any "guests," "visitors," "newbies" (members with fewer that 50 posts).  And my blog does not get crawled by spiders or bots.

The settings are safer than those of the old "Just for Us" section.

Quote from: Taka on July 30, 2013, 04:33:28 PM
i took me a while to get what you meant...

there are times when i'm expected to be in female mode. wearing female clothing doesn't help unfortunately, i still manage to forget that all the words women are called by men and other women also refer to me when i'm wearing a pretty dress.

I type so fast and have so many thought trigger off at once that sometimes only a portion of my thoughts make it to the computer screen.  I'm impressed when anyone can decipher what I am talking about.  But NO MORE!  No more riddle talk for Dr Girlfriend and no more half typed sentences!  From this point on I shall increase the quality of my posts and strive for sentences that at least make sense.  There have got to be folks that assume that I speak another language or something.

Though I shall retain my tinge of goofiness and slapstick, I will work hard to avoid responses such as "HUH?!" or "what the heck was this person trying to say?"

What I was trying to say was that I spend so much time being feminine that when there comes a time to be masculine I forget all of the unspoken "guy rules".  Like dudes dont shave their legs!  and Why the heck are your nails purple sir?!  Its come to the point where I have forgotten all of those rules and don't really care to follow them.  He? She?  I can only be me!

I only hope that I can be as confident with myself as all of you seem to be.

Quote from: dr girlfriend on July 31, 2013, 08:31:32 AM
What I was trying to say was that I spend so much time being feminine that when there comes a time to be masculine I forget all of the unspoken "guy rules".  Like dudes dont shave their legs!  and Why the heck are your nails purple sir?!  Its come to the point where I have forgotten all of those rules and don't really care to follow them.  He? She?  I can only be me!

i did understand that, it just took me a couple minutes of deciphering. i have no problems dressing correctly, but then i forget to have the right state of mind.

Quote from: Jamie D on July 31, 2013, 12:53:49 AM
Actually, there is a safe place.  I created it just for my friends here.

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,145701.new.html#new (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,145701.new.html#new)

I have set my blog so that it can not be seen by any "guests," "visitors," "newbies" (members with fewer that 50 posts).  And my blog does not get crawled by spiders or bots.

The settings are safer than those of the old "Just for Us" section.

Cool, count me in Jamie!

Quote from: LearnedHand on July 30, 2013, 06:35:11 PM
Another thing I need to add to my list of things to forget about when in "girl mode" is shaving. I went to work today in a skirt (I am in desperate need to dropping pants off at the dry cleaners) and wore black nylons since I didn't shave my legs. One of my coworkers said "{Birth Name}! Why are you wearing nylons!?!?" So I said it's because I didn't shave my legs, then she picked up her leg (wearing capris) and said "she I didn't either, no one cares about shaving."

[now, she was just prickly, probably didn't shave in a few days. maybe it's different if there's no shaving in like a month or more, which I tend to do]

This reminds me of a woman I saw living on a supposedly desert island in the South China sea. Her legs were skinny as broomsticks with really coarse black hairs poking straight out, she reminded me of a spider. Anyway, I used to shave my legs but finally the hair never grew back. Must have something to do with age, anyway I get a small patck under each kneecap that I mow once a month.  ;D

Quote from: Taka on July 30, 2013, 09:07:36 AM
"because i want to", "i like these clothes", "this hat's so cool".
come to think of it, those are the real reasons, my most honest opinions. much more than "being non-binary" would be a reason for dressing unconventionally.
and now i suddenly lost any sense of how gender is supposed to control anything about a person's preferences and expression... how does binary gender work again?

Precisely. Those should be the reasons dictating what to wear. (Well, within reason and following local nudity laws.)

Quote from: Jamie, Bana-phrionnsa Gaidhealtachd on July 31, 2013, 12:53:49 AM
I have set my blog so that it can not be seen by any "guests," "visitors," "newbies" (members with fewer that 50 posts).  And my blog does not get crawled by spiders or bots.

The settings are safer than those of the old "Just for Us" section.

We can do that?