Susan's Place Transgender Resources

For the last ten months I have been wearing female clothes, full time.

I work (don't get payed) at a british red cross charity shop. The manager we had before and our area manager have always been fine with what I wear and been very supportive.

They knew I had to wear female clothes as part of my RLE.

We now have a new manager, who yesterday had a talk to me about other things not to do with my gender or what I wear.

But then she started to talk about what I wear. She said "i need to wear jeans or trousers and a normal top as we have a lot of older people come into our shop and they won't like it"

Now to me, that sounds like she is trying to say "they won't like it because I'm a man in female clothes".

She even said she does not want me on the till point all the time. (Thats always been my job since starting four years ago)

What I wear (most times) is denim shorts like most of the girls wear with black tights or black leggings and a really nice girly top. Does that sound wrong to you? I can't even wear a skirt as she wants my legs covered up!!

I was told by our other manager, last year, when we were talking about what I would be wearing when I come in as Bethany, for the first time. And she said, shorts are fine as long as they are not long or baggy round the legs and if you always were tights or leggings with them.

Our new manager (who started last month) has her husband working there and she has told me (yesterday) that he does not like people like me!!

Now I understand that next month I will of finished my 1 year RLE (not told her that) but I will still be wearing female clothes after that.

Can my manager make me wear what 'she' feels the older shoppers will like, now or after my RLE and do you think like me, that maybe her husband has had something to say?

What are the laws where you live? In my area there is a law forbidding discrimination based on "gender presentation". If that had happened here, that would have been blatantly illegal.

Do you have any local LGBT organizations you can ask?

In the UK we have the same laws. What If she says, the customers have had things to say? Do I do what I want to do and tell her, if I can't wear female clothes, then I can't work there?

I will no dress 'down' for anyone. and it's going to look stupid if I come in with makeup on and a ladies hair style, wearing jeans and a normal top (when I still look like man).

It's bad enough now, people not always knowing if I am a man or woman, but thankfully, most think I am a woman with what I wear.

You should document these comments and the names of anyone close by who overheard the conversation along with time and date, I'm assuming there will be more. You may need some ammunition for a legal representative in the near future. As long as you don't have a lot of flesh showing and your clothing style fits in with other female employees, the woman and her husband don't have a leg to stand on because then it clearly becomes a case of gender discrimination.

Yeah I would look at your chain of command and before you use that I would talk with a human rights lawyer about what to say and do when you speak to your manager so you can do this legally by the book. It protects you and sets you up for a win if she and her husband get to out of line

It does sound like discrimination. Do you have any contract? This is going to be a difficult one as you have no employment agreement.

http://www.hrreview.co.uk/hr-news/employment-law/volunteers-do-not-have-same-legal-rights-as-staff/40579 (http://www.hrreview.co.uk/hr-news/employment-law/volunteers-do-not-have-same-legal-rights-as-staff/40579)

Go up the ladder.  Contact the area manger.  If there has been no complaints before this manager's installment, it is just how she and her husband view it.

Can cis-women wear those types of clothes? If they can, but you can't, that is discrimination. Otoh, if there is a store-wide policy that is simply a dress code.

My guess is the manger is not comfortable with your transition...she needs to be educated on the matter, perhaps by the next person up the "ladder."

What I am going to do first, is text her (easier) before I start tomorrow. I am just going to say what the NHS DR said in London to me "As part of your RLE, we don't like you wearing jeans or trousers. We like you to wear things that make you stand out, so people can see your a man in female clothes"

And to me that sounds just right. What would be the point of someone saying "well I'll do my RLE but I'll just wear jeans, trainers and t-shirt"? That is what I wore as a man and I was NOT even happy in myself wearing them.

When I started wearing Bethany's clothes, for the first time in my life, I was so happy in myself and have been ever since that day. Before then I was always told what to wear by my mum as she did not like the men's clothes I'd wear as she thought, Topman clothes were for kids. Now my mum loves everything I wear.

There is no way I'm I going back to being un happy again.

I am sure for most people MTF or FTM, the clothes they now wear are a big part of being who they want to be. That is the same for me.

She says I've got her full support, but then tells me about my clothes and what other people will think!!

Our dress code is, wear what you like as long as you are not showing all you've got.

And another thing, the older people who work in our shop, love what I wear....

Yay! Go get 'em, girl!

Yes, the clothes and makeup I wear IS a big part of me...I can't stand wearing guy clothes at all, not even underwear (which no one sees, but me)

Quotethe NHS DR said in London to me "As part of your RLE, we don't like you wearing jeans or trousers. We like you to wear things that make you stand out, so people can see your a man in female clothes"

So RLE is truly an official way of saying, "Look at me! I'm a man wearing women's clothes!" ...where's that image of RLE=hazing..? 

But you do look good, Bethany...:)

Well the UK system is a bit bad in many ways but still.  What she is doing is direct discrimination in UK law and prohibited.  Ask her to get it in writing for your dr for rle.  Tell her u can't do it until u have.  When u have that tell her u have found out it is direct discrimination so u won't be doing it anyway.  That way if she decides to try and change her story later on she won't be able to lie.

Quote from: Akira21 ♡♡♡ on July 21, 2013, 01:53:56 PM
Well the UK system is a bit bad in many ways but still.  What she is doing is direct discrimination in UK law and prohibited.  Ask her to get it in writing for your dr for rle.  Tell her u can't do it until u have.  When u have that tell her u have found out it is direct discrimination so u won't be doing it anyway.  That way if she decides to try and change her story later on she won't be able to lie.

Good leveraging tactic Akira, are you sure that you aren't a lawyer in absentia?

Volunteer work and she's gonna' slam someone with a dresscode? Her husband don't like people like us? I would definately get a letter from the doctor stating the terms for RLE and give it to your manager.

Don't worry.. She now knows!!

I said "I have to wear clothes that make me stand out so people say "look he's a man in female clothes and to show my Psychiatrist that I really need to change my gender" .

Ok her husband does not like it, but how does she think I feel, when I have people look and say things or find me funny?

I have noticed how her husband calls me 'he'. I will leave it for now but if there is anything else said by her (or him), I will be speaking to the area manager.

And thankfully, others I work with are fine and said I wear nice things, and one lady said "you've been Beth for a long time now, so you don't change for her". And they said "if her husband does not like it, he should go"

Quote from: bethanyjadefowell on July 21, 2013, 12:30:54 PM
I am just going to say what the NHS DR said in London to me "As part of your RLE, we don't like you wearing jeans or trousers. We like you to wear things that make you stand out, so people can see your a man in female clothes"

Really? WTF??? So they dont want You actually blend in???

Well, if you blend in that is fine. But what they are saying is this "if you wear a t-shirt, jeans and trainers, how is that making you look female?".

Understand that, as a man, I use to wear jeans, t-shirt and trainers, so If I still wore them, I would look just like I did as a man.

Trust me, If you don't look female in what you are wearing NHS gender clinics in the UK turn you away at your first appointment.

Quote from: bethanyjadefowell on July 22, 2013, 12:36:47 PM
Don't worry.. She now knows!!

I said "I have to wear clothes that make me stand out so people say "look he's a man in female clothes" and so I look like a female".

Ok her husband does not like it, but how does she think I feel, when I have people look and say things or find me funny?

I have noticed how her husband calls me 'he'. I will leave it for now but if there is anything else said by her (or him), I will be speaking to the area manager.

And thankfully, others I work with are fine and said I wear nice things, and one lady said "you've been Beth for a long time now, so you don't change for her". And they said "if her husband does not like it, he should go"

I have to admit that I am taken aback more about the sadistic nature of your NHS gender specialist than your manager. Seriously, your doctor requires you to be humiliated in such a way as to "look like a man in female clothes" before taking you seriously? We are in the 21st century and this is what we can expect today of the NHS? I'm sorry but that upsets me. Have they prescribed HRT yet?

Any good gender clinic would say the same. RLE is something you have to do by law. You do NOT have a choice.

No one is making you do RLE but if you don't do it (in the UK) you can't change your gender. And to me that is right.

I know me, and how I could not cope any longer and that I would do what ever it took to change my gender.

If a gender clinic is happy to give you HRT and just send you away, that is up to that clinic. But I can tell you now, that is not how a clinic should work. I know, because, I've been to a clinic just like that, who didn't do anything by the book, let alone care if you wore female clothes or not.

Things worldwide have changed. Back in the day it was three years RLE by law before any sort of HRT!! So I think a year or even three years of RLE and HRT at the same time sounds ok to me. And in the UK you don't have to wear a skirt if you don't want to!! I don't and still look female or a man in female clothes.

I'm I missing something? I thought RLE was to show how much you needed to change your gender and if you really wanted SRS?

Stick your middle finger in the air and tell the bitch to spin on it.That's what I'd do

What is right for one is not right for another. The "rules" are simply arbitrary, ie. there is no right or wrong way. Back in the day, I was incapable of saying boo to a goose, let alone running the gauntlet of boroughs Willesden and Kilburn as a visible "crossdresser". If they hadn't prescribed me HRT before RLE, I wouldn't be here today.

Quote from: bethanyjadefowell on July 22, 2013, 01:12:28 PM
I'm I missing something? I thought RLE was to show how much you needed to change your gender and if you really wanted SRS?

Sure, but it doesn't have to be done in a way that guarantees humiliation and puts your life at risk.

Am I wrong to think this way?

I always thought that RLE was sort of field test for you to see how much you know about female social conditioning, whether you are ready to give up male social conditioning, including so called privileges, and whether you are REALLY comfortable by doing that. It is kind living in a female shoes, a real female life. I might be wrong, but lets say if I was a genetic girl, I would not be having among my daily experiences and routines some sort of walk outside and shouts like "Oh look, that is a man in female clothes!!!".
But I have to admit, if You are getting state-covered SRS in return... then it could be worth it...
For me, I most probably will have to cover expenses out of my pocket and if I would have to undergo a prior humiliation just in order to get a permission to undergo something which is classified by majority of insurance companies as "a plastic surgery" then I would be taking this case before the Strasbourg court.

Quote from: -Emily- on July 22, 2013, 01:40:39 PM
then I would be taking this case before the Strasbourg court.

I'm totally with you. Damn right. And it would be a class action!

SRS is NOT plastic surgery or anything like it....

One thing I will say though.. If you have the time to do that, which will take many months. Fine. But I think most people on here would like to start treatment than do something that you are not going to win.

Any of the mods will tell you that RLE is something you can't take to court. But if you want to try then, do so. But You won't be starting treatment or getting any SRS any time soon.

What is Real Life Experience?
Real-life experience (RLE) is a process where transsexual and transgender people live full-time in their preferred gender identity for a period of time, in order to demonstrate that they can live as a member of that said gender. This must be:

In the way they dress
In full or part-time employment
In college or university as a student
In a community-based volunteer roll
With family and friends
To acquire a (legal) gender-identity-appropriate first name
To provide documentation that persons other than the therapist know that the patient functions in the desired gender role.
   
A minimum period of 12 months RLE is a requirement of the World Professional Association for Transgender Health standards of care (SOC) for gender reassignment surgery.

A year containing intermittent periods of returning to the original gender are not considered to fulfill the RLE criteria for surgery. The SOC states: "Individuals cannot receive genital surgery without meeting the eligibility criteria.... The SOC provide for an individual approach for every patient; but this does not mean that the general guidelines, which specify treatment consisting of diagnostic evaluation, possible psychotherapy, hormones, and real-life experience, can be ignored."

I thought the RLE was to show you can function as a female. But really it is a relic of a time when you couldn't transition if you couldn't pass. So if you pass as female, then RLE isn't that bad all in all. I could prolly pass most of the time, if not all, pre-HRT, but still I'd be a lot uglier and if I'm constantly on edge all that really proves is how well I deal in high-stress situations, not as a woman. Up until a little while ago, i thought you had to do the RLE in the US too still which is exactly the reason I never transitioned. As soon as I found out I didn't have to, I was on HRT. Though I do feel really stupid now for not being more curious and wasting all this time. I think the RLE is good for SRS with the help of HRT. I don't see why they can't give hormones before.

Personally, I have absolutely no issue with RLE before SRS. What is unacceptable is being forced to do RLE before HRT.

Quote from: bethanyjadefowell on July 22, 2013, 12:44:48 PM
Well, if you blend in that is fine. But what they are saying is this "if you wear a t-shirt, jeans and trainers, how is that making you look female?".

I've always felt skinny jeans were just about the most feminizing thing a young women can wear (maybe besides yoga pants).  Personally, I find "Emo/Rocker" to be just as feminine as any pink dress/heels combo.

If I was forced to wear a dress during RLE, heads would roll  >:-)

They can give HRT at the start as long as you start your RLE at the same time. No matter what you say, RLE is law and no court in this world can bend the law to what you want it to be.

If anyone can really say they won't start treatment if they have to do RLE first or at the same time, they can't want to start treatment that much.

I could be wrong, but if a person was that bad that changing there was the only way to continue with life, they would not say "but if I have to do RLE I won't do it".

Quote from: Horizon on July 22, 2013, 02:32:08 PM
I've always felt skinny jeans were just about the most feminizing thing a young women can wear (maybe besides yoga pants).  Personally, I find "Emo/Rocker" to be just as feminine as any pink dress/heels combo.

If I was forced to wear a dress during RLE, heads would roll  >:-)

Yeah skinny jeans are pretty femme. I love them and they shape my body so well. It is an undeniable female look though especially if you're on HRT and your body fat is distributing nicely.

Quote from: bethanyjadefowell on July 22, 2013, 02:08:23 PM
One thing I will say though.. If you have the time to do that, which will take many months. Fine. But I think most people on here would like to start treatment than do something that you are not going to win.

Any of the mods will tell you that RLE is something you can't take to court. But if you want to try then, do so. But You won't be starting treatment or getting any SRS any time soon.

Well, since I am not based in the UK, I am more free in my choices about treatment, but I am covering its expenses though.
I would not be taking RLE to the Strasbourg court - but the fact of that specific actions are required by the State agency which may or may not amount into degrading treatment. And mods are not the ones to decide if the case is or is not admissible before the Strasbourg court - it is the court which decides. And, by the way, it has some interesting case-law in respect of the States providing state-covered SRS. For example, there was a case in the Switzerland which the Swiss lost, because their system required mandatory two years waiting period until someone was entitled for the SRS. The system did not take into account that someone might be of such an age that this waiting period might take her into that age range, when the person concerned became non-operational. Something to think about :).

One last point - courts are not to bend to law, but to interpret it in the light of principles, which are inherent in democracy, rule of law and respect for fundamental rights. And certain courts are empowered to abrogate provisions of law which are not in conformity with the above-mentioned principles.

Quote from: bethanyjadefowell on July 22, 2013, 02:37:09 PM
If anyone can really say they won't start treatment if they have to do RLE first or at the same time, they can't want to start treatment that much.

I don't think that's an entirely fair statement.  Constant (and unnecessary) ridicule is a genuine enough concern to make one question, but the odds of being murdered go up significantly when unpassable.  With HRT beforehand, going stealth is much more achievable.

Of course, with the "man in female clothing" comment, it sounds like the UK is just trying to torture people.  Even law needs to be challenged on occasion.

No they are not. Look, you can wear female clothes in any country and if you look totally like a man in them, then that country is not trying to torture people.

But WE are MEN in female clothing!! No matter how you dress, till you have changed you will be a man in female clothes. Are you really saying that if I was in another country, I could wear the same clothes as I do now but not look like a man?

There is nothing that the UK can do to make you look like a man in female clothes. They are NOT trying to do that. What they are saying is if you look like a man wearing female clothes, that is not down to them!! The UK can't make you anymore man then you are now!!

I think all anyone is saying is that providing a person HRT before the RLE will take away the ridicule and make you more passable and thus make the RLE bearable. Not everyone can bear that type of ridicule. I mean what is the reason for not giving HRT beforehand. There isn't a good reason. It is perfectly reasonable to start HRT and then do the RLE. I can't think of one reason to be ridiculed when it won't happen if you start HRT.

I can really understand real life experience before SRS. I just can't understand why you can't be on HRT for a while first to kind of ease into it. Every little bit of feminizing first would help for the RLE. Not to mention like someone else said with all the idiots and crazies out there, it could be a recipe for disaster and that law could get someone hurt.

Quote from: bethanyjadefowell on July 22, 2013, 03:12:12 PM
But WE are MEN in female clothing!! No matter how you dress, till you have changed you will be a man in female clothes.

Until what has changed exactly? HRT, SRS? You, we are women regardless of HRT and SRS. Isn't that why we transition?

Quote
There is nothing that the UK can do to make you look like a man in female clothes.

By not prescribing HRT.

Speaking about countries and differences. Here where I live, we do have Pride marches once per year. The first one, which was kind of "march" was a real disaster. So after the lessons had been learned, all the subsequent Pride marches took place as insider event in the park, located in the centre of the capital. Why? Because that park has a metal fence all around of it, there is HUGE presence of police officers, including fully-equiped riot police and participants and general public are kept apart by barriers. So, if they would suggest me taking 24/7/365 RLE and I would not be passable at that point of the time, then this all would be pretty much screwed and I certainly would have been taking a case before the ECHR.
I do not want to insult neither the NHS, nor the UK system as such - if that works, then at least people can get what they need (though my personal opinion is that I would never move to the UK, because laws are crazy there - flat firearms ban and You cant even own pepper spray for self-defence...).

You not understanding!! RLE has to be done in EVERY county including yours. So even if you can start HRT in your county you will have to do RLE in your country before SRS. If you think I am wrong, talk to the gender clinic you are under and see what they say.

But just so you know once and for all. if you DON'T do RLE you can never have SRS. Like I said talk to your clinic.

And if your clinic simply says "you can have SRS no matter what" then I'd think about changing clinics...

We do not have any gender clinic here, hon :(. We do have one private clinic which does, among other services, SRS and FFS, but they do so on the basis of psychiatric evaluation, which is done by a group of interdisciplinary experts. What they do they give You F64.0 diagnosis (transsexualism, gender dysphoria) from the ICD 10.
A couple of years ago if You wanted to talk with doctors and started with GP they either had absolutely no idea what to do with You, or You were looked upon like some sort of abomination. So, speaking about country differences... ;).

Bethany, if I still may be permitted to respond to the OP (I posted earlier but somehow the post didn't appear).

Would it be possible that your supervisor doesn't realize her request is illegal? If so, a low key reminder "Did you know that asking me to do that is illegal?" might help diffuse the situation.

I don't know you or your supervisor, so only you will know for sure.

I hope this helps.

Quote from: bethanyjadefowell on July 22, 2013, 04:33:16 PM
You not understanding!! RLE has to be done in EVERY county including yours. So even if you can start HRT in your county you will have to do RLE in your country before SRS. If you think I am wrong, talk to the gender clinic you are under and see what they say.

But just so you know once and for all. if you DON'T do RLE you can never have SRS. Like I said talk to your clinic.

And if your clinic simply says "you can have SRS no matter what" then I'd think about changing clinics...

Hi BethanyJade.
I humbly suggest you are misinformed regarding the above. In the countries where GRS is covered by social security being put through the hoops as is being done to you is generally the norm yes. However, in these same countries, to avoid having other people tell you how you should transition, many, if not most of us avoid going through these "official" channels. The downside is having to pay for everything yourself but personally, that is a price I am willing to pay to not have to dance to anyone's music but my own. As it happens, because I have been able to manage my transition in my own manner, I have been able to keep a decent job all through it so even with a cost benefits approach, going outside the system often makes a lot of sense.

I do however understand and accept  that not everyone is in a position to do this and really feel for those who don't have too much choice in the matter as to me, what you are being asked to do is a cruel rite of passage invented by people who seem to get their kicks out of playing around with other people's lives. I don't get angry about too much in life but this is a subject that really gets me very annoyed, even more so when the they succeed in convincing people like you that what they are imposing on you is OK.

If I had accepted a programme like the one you are presently on, a similar system exists here in France,  I would no longer have a job and be looking at finshing my life destitute or on social welfare which is not much better. Why? To prove to some seriously perverse members of the medical profession that I am willing to sacrifice everything else that counts in my life to convince them that I am genuinely transgender. That, by any standards is quite simply obscene and I believe that contrary to what these "specialists" claim, they are the ones who really need to revisit their thinking.

I was initially quite distressed by what you were going through at work, I am even more distressed to see you defend the system that has forced you down this route.

You are very courageous and I really wish you all the best but I don't agree that what you are having to go through is OK.
Bises
Donna

Donna Elvira, You speak the words of wisdom. As always :)

Quote from: bethanyjadefowell on July 22, 2013, 04:33:16 PM
You not understanding!! RLE has to be done in EVERY county including yours. So even if you can start HRT in your county you will have to do RLE in your country before SRS. If you think I am wrong, talk to the gender clinic you are under and see what they say.

But just so you know once and for all. if you DON'T do RLE you can never have SRS. Like I said talk to your clinic.

And if your clinic simply says "you can have SRS no matter what" then I'd think about changing clinics...

Just to note that my health insurance is covering my transition in the country I'm in (let's just say mainland Europe), I'm on HRT and getting my facial hair removed.

While I do wear women's clothing, I limit it to stuff I can get away with while presenting male (e.g. jeans, some sweaters), and do so on my own accord. I have not presented female in public at all to date. There is no RLE prerequisite that I have to fulfil at this stage, but can do so at my leisure once I feel comfortable with it. I DO have to show RLE for the official name change and SRS, but I can get HRT etc. prior to that step without any issues. Similar to Donna I would refuse to ruin my career by having to undergo the UK method and would rather pay for it from my own pocket before that*.

(* I admit, I would also be hard pressed to have the guts to try...)

Quote from: -Emily- on July 22, 2013, 05:08:56 PM
Donna Elvira, You speak the words of wisdom. As always :)

Absolutely.

This is what I am trying to say!!! You can't have SRS until you have done RLE. Ok in some other countries you don't have to do RLE for HRT but you do have to do RLE for SRS.

Also you can't have SRS done until you've had HRT for some time.

Theo, It looks like your country IS doing everything by the book. I am just saying, that if other people are saying they can have SRS without having do do RLE or have HRT first, then I would not go near that clinic at all.

The reason why the RLE is put in place is because, once you have changed your gender and had SRS there is no going back.

If you are saying you would lose everything by wearing female clothes, that to me means, you changing gender does not matter to your job, friends or family.

You could say this "If I change my gender I will lose everything - family, friends and job". Would that then mean you would not do your gender change?

Many trans people move away and lose everything because doing RLE and changing gender is something they need to do, more than not losing everything.

"This is what I am trying to say!!! You can't have SRS until you have done RLE."

I believe you are mistaken.

Because HBIGDA's Standards of Care require either a real-life test or a required period of therapy, there is a necessity to research whether either of these significantly benefit clients seeking cross-gender hormones and SRS. Benefit being a subjective term, this research should be performed by interviewing post-operative patients as Lawrence has done, but on a larger scale, to determine their satisfaction and level of regret with their decision to transition. If further research reveals that the real-life test or a period of fixed length in therapy has no value in increasing satisfaction or reducing regret, HBIGDA should be bound to consider this when drafting the next version of the Standards of Care for Gender Identity Disorders.

http://www.trans-health.com/2003/real-life-test/ (http://www.trans-health.com/2003/real-life-test/)

For the lady in the shop I'm pretty sure that this is covered in the Equality Act 2010.

Your gender specialist sounds as nutty as mine. Two things here. Firstly one of the major conditions of the RLE is that throughout you don't get involved in any physical confrontation or display traits of 'anti-social behaviour'. Depending on where you are in the UK suggesting that you stand out as trans when you're not entitled to anything (not even a wig) on prescription is rather stupid advice.

Second rule of the 1950's Housewives Society (read your NHS gender clinic appointments) is that you don't take everything they tell you literally (advice I got from my sorely missed late GP). They control the supply of hormones and other treatments so on some level you need to follow their advice, but they're also specialists working from a theory and set of guidelines and you're the one who has to deal with the reality out there in wider society.

But then again I have this opinion that anyone on RLE should be given some form of support. It's not like any of us cackle, fly round on broomsticks or cook stuff in cauldrons.

Quote from: bethanyjadefowell on July 22, 2013, 05:39:02 PM

If you are saying you would lose everything by wearing female clothes, that to me means, you changing gender does not matter to your job, friends or family.

You could say this "If I change my gender I will lose everything - family, friends and job". Would that then mean you would not do your gender change?

Many trans people move away and lose everything because doing RLE and changing gender is something they need to do, more than not losing everything.

BethanyJade,
As is obvious from my avatar I do wear female clothes, have long hair etc.. but I didn't start to do it in public on a regular basis until my presentation as a woman was good enough for me to be able to avoid the sort of problems you have encountered. Given my job, it would have been suicidal and since I actually do have a choice I prefer to do my transition in a manner which allows me to avoid putting myself in such a position. As a guy, I was quite a masochist but I have largely given up on that since assuming my female identity.. ;)
Also, if transitioning results in more or less completely isolating you from the rest of society, I would seriously question the value of doing it. I actually believe this is proof of my overall sanity and would suggest that the sanity of anyone who tries to force me down a route which exposes me to constant ridicule, social isolation  and even danger to life and limb, is far more questionable than mine.
Again, I admire your courage and resilience but that still doesn't make the process you are being put through right.
Warm regards.
Donna

Why is it not right? For the last 10 months of doing this, everything has been fine, up till my stupid boss.

And to the poster who said they waited until they looked female before wearing the clothes. Your missing my point.

Look at some of my family. They have told me where to go because I was going to start wearing female clothes. Nothing about changing my gender..

It is good that you have not lost everything, but does that show you, that it's would of been you as a man wearing ladies clothes that would of lost you everything? Not the changing gender part? Could be wrong but that is what you saying.

I cant decide wheather I should be crying or laughing now... Seriously, it appears to me that most of the persons here are just talking about their country systems and not getting the point that everyone and every country is different. Yes, there are WPATH SOC, but there is also informed consent (that is what we are doing here with regard to the HRT).

As for doing everything, including the loss of everything just to change the gender - I just cant take this. No offence and insults will be meant for anyone in this thread or forum, please do not take this as personal, but I just want to get emotional about this.  Being trans is quite a unique experience which depending on your whereabouts, family, social and cultural position and ties can variate between total hell till kinda of happy childhood/teen years. I am speaking about disowned children from one side and those stunning examples like Jazz or Kim Petras from the other. There are many kids which are raised and beaten up by their peers or brothers, or fathers because they do not confirm their gender and there are people in this world who just believe that nothing is inborn and if we keep beating the sh*t out of you, then it will eventually sort everything out in your head. "Its not about prenatal hormones, You are just sick in Your head". Many of those kids do not survive till their adulthood - they either commit a suicide or become victims of violent crimes. Oh, and there is all this scene of prostitution... And if they had avoided that initially, when they loose everything - as suggested by the UK system (I emphasise - this is not mandatory outcome, but one of them),  they might still end up with selling their bodies because they are disowned, poorly educated, hungry and have no idea how to proceed with their lives. This pattern of victimisation just goes on with them and they do not know how to get out of it, besides they might get a dangerous idea that being trans = you are expected to be a victim... A victim of violent amd sexual offences, discrimination in private and public areas. But this is not true! You dont have to be a victim and loose everything, just because of some accident during Your prenatal stage... You should be enjoying Your life to the extend possible and not being asked to be voluntarily subjected to even more ridicule, shame and mockery. Most of us have had enough during previous stages of our lives, so why cant we finally get on with our lives?

Quote from: bethanyjadefowell on July 23, 2013, 01:12:20 AM
Why is it not right? For the last 10 months of doing this, everything has been fine, up till my stupid boss.

And to the poster who said they waited until they looked female before wearing the clothes. Your missing my point.

Look at some of my family. They have told me where to go because I was going to start wearing female clothes. Nothing about changing my gender..

It is good that you have not lost everything, but does that show you, that it's would of been you as a man wearing ladies clothes that would of lost you everything? Not the changing gender part? Could be wrong but that is what you saying.

It might be okay for you but the RLE is not one size fits all. You appear to be rather small and passable and you prolly blend in well. But what about someone who is really broad chested or with some other male trait that could probably be corrected with HRT? I get why you are so passionate about the RLE. You are going thru it but it may not be as easy for others. And just because someone doesn't want to be ridiculed or hazed doesn't mean they are not sufficiently trans.

Also, you seem to be hung up on female clothes. But for me I could care less about clothes. Does that mean I am not trans? because for me it is all about my body. I want and need to be female because I feel so out of place in my own skin. It's horrid how I feel sometimes. I could deal with wearing male clothes foever (though I certainly don't want to) but I can't deal with being male anymore. Then there is the point female clothes fit better after a half year of HRT.

I do agree the RLE is neccesary...for SRS. I don't see why you are against being able to have HRT first. I get the NHS wants it that way but that is just a rule not a law. And even so just because a law doesn't make it right. Laws are meant to change as society changes. The RLE is a relic of a time when you could only transtion if you are passable. I wish I was in the UK because I would have underwent the RLE without HRT when I was 18 because I looked very female as a kid. But now 10 years later I have facial hair and my skin masculized so it would be as easy. Though not hard. But for others HRT is the difference between having an easy transtion and a hard one. I mean it is supposed to help the person decide they want this not a test of how trans they are.

No, I think Bethany made clear that RLE  was not a precondition for HRT, but they were sort of interrelated. Also, I think she did not say that clothes are the most important thing - its what the UK system says, because it is based on the old principles made by Harry Benjamin, which does not take into account the fashion trends and cultural evolution in 21st century. I got an impression that those NHS people think in categories "long hair= woman; short hair=man; skirt=woman, denim jeans, t-shirts = man". This part kinda bothers me, but I am also not in a position to criticise it, because it does not affect me personally. For me, clothing does not make You female, and if it does then You are probably a CD - just kiddin' :). But - in terms of dress - I am pretty much sure that a female denim combi (trousers and jacket) will be my first outfit, whatever Harry Benjamin might be saying about it...

The reason why the NHS ask you to do RLE first, for a time, is because they found that amy people decided after around 18 months that they no longer wanted to continue with their gender change.

These people must of reasons why they decide that they no longer want to change gender, but what the NHS are saying is, "they could of give treatment to people who would of changed their gender."

You have to understand that our NHS gender clinics get around 1000 people a year go there, and they I am sure, are thinking about all the people who have to wait months if not years, before even getting their first appointment, that could of had an appointment sooner, and been the many people who really do want to change their gender.

So if a person does one year RLE then decides they don't want to change their gender, it has not cost the NHS anything.

But if we take a person, who is 100% unpassable  - maybe not excessively masculine, but like a borderline - and ask that person to undertake the RLE without hormones, I could bet this person might be quitting within the course of months... :(

-Emily- is right. And I think the NHS would say that if you looked female after being on HRT for a good year, you could wear what you wanted. As you would not have to wear things to make you stand out.

What I haven't said is that there are other NHS gender clinics (like the one in Scotland) where you don't even need to go via your GP and the wearing of the clothes is not important for stating HRT, but they do like you to do RLE at some point.

But my point is (they were quitting without having to do any RLE). They could start HRT without any RLE but they still quit.

Quote from: bethanyjadefowell on July 23, 2013, 03:14:35 AM
But my point is (they were quitting without having to do any RLE).

I am totally lost now :)

And yes I am lucky in that I do have a more female body. BUT I still get lots of people looking and saying things because I don't pass as a woman to everyone.

The RLE is not easy for me as well, but I understand that as I have a more female body and I am slim (only size 6 by the way lol), I can pass more easily.

But even if I was like others, I would still say the RLE is the right thing to do...

RLE is a joke, a sadistic joke.

And here is why. And I ask anyone reading to keep an open mind here...

What is the point of the RLE.... the point I think most would agree is to ensure that you can live life as your gender of identification in practice as well as theory.

To that end, what IS living as your gender of identification? I would put forward that it is by definition any form of living that involves people perceiving you as your identified gender and those people behaving towards you the same as they would anyone else.

And with that in mind, it has to be said that an extremely large number of young cisfemales dress in a masculine way and behave in a masculine way, yet are still treated as female because of other factors. Now I admit this does not apply to 'all' trans people, but it certainly does apply to many. Additionally not many young women dress as if they were a house wife from the 60s for example.

And therefore, RLE should be extremely wide in its interpretation. And in my opinion how you dress should in no way factor into it.

In fact I would say that RLE should not require ANYTHING of you that would not apply to as a general rule to large numbers of the cis population.

Now that I've said the more moderate parts of what I had to say, I'll add this.

A great deal of psychiatrists, especially if you give them the capacity to do so as the UK does, become totally drunk with power. Worse than that, they are not teaching you how to cope with being seen as your gender of identification, they are teaching you how to cope with being seen as a transsexual... by the general population.

I think it's disgusting, and none of you should have to put up with it.

Quote from: Asfsd4214 on July 23, 2013, 09:56:36 AM
RLE is a joke, a sadistic joke.

And here is why. And I ask anyone reading to keep an open mind here...

What is the point of the RLE.... the point I think most would agree is to ensure that you can live life as your gender of identification in practice as well as theory.

To that end, what IS living as your gender of identification? I would put forward that it is by definition any form of living that involves people perceiving you as your identified gender and those people behaving towards you the same as they would anyone else.

You have really found the words that sum up how ridiculous RLE is under the form practised by by the NHS and similar institutions in France and elsewhere. If RLE is supposed to be about living in your gender of identification, part of the experience should actually consist of the looking the part as otherwise people are not reacting to you as a member of your assumed gender but rather as a man in a dress or something similar.  How these self appointed experts can't see this obvious process defect is totally beyond me and apart from getting a really thick skin,(not necessarily a negative BTW)  I'd be very curious to know what exactly you learn from that?

Against that, if you actually do look the part, RLE can be a very validating and positive experience and yes I am speaking from experience as I do not at all dispute the value in living full time for a significant period of time before doing something as radical as GRS. I am really happy with my self administered RLE as pretty well all the time I am perceived as a woman confirming me in the idea that I am much happier in this position than I was prior to setting out on this journey. How difficult is it for all of these experts to understand that, unless of course the intent all along is simply to discourage as many people as possible from moving forward with their transition??

Again, I feel huge sympathy with those that have no obvious alternative choice but God, don't let anyone try to convince me that the whole process, as described by Bethany, is anything other than extraordinarily shameful and perverse. When people look back on this 5, 10, 15 years down the road it will be compared with initiatives like the forced sterilisation of Aborigines in Australia or the Magdalene laundries in Ireland ie. something that looked OK at the time but profoundly shameful with hindsight.

Aaaagh!
Donna

Not everyone is told to do the RLE (in the UK or other countries where it MUST be done), as they choose to go full time from day one.

I don't think it is right to make out that no one wants to do RLE or go full time from day one.

The reason I went full time from day one is because I wanted to be Bethany. It wasn't to do with the RLE.

Even if the RLE did not need to be done in the UK, I wouldn't of let my boss make me change what I wear.

With the first clinic I was under, you didn't even have to do any RLE. That said, you wouldn't of even changed at the clinic anyway, to feel ready to go full time at any point.

The NHS clinic is not as good as it could be and they do make it hard for you to get to where you want to be. But If you stick at it and do all they ask of you, you will get there in the end.

But I went to my GP last may and I am still waiting for my first appointment with the NHS gender clinic in London. But all I need the NHS for now is my voice and SRS.

So what is the point of doing RLE for SRS if YOU can wait till you've changed to do it? I see NO point at all as you would of changed and things you wear would match you.

Quote from: bethanyjadefowell on July 24, 2013, 02:23:08 AM
So what is the point of doing RLE for SRS if YOU can wait till you've changed to do it? I see NO point at all as you would of have changed and things you wear would match you.

Are you suggesting that one is "cheating" their way through RLE if one looks 100% female at the start of RLE? May I humbly suggest that the idea that one must be put through some sort of metaphorical medieval torture device to see how much one wants to live the gender role one has chosen is utterly incorrect. Sorry, I cannot express strongly enough how I feel about this. This is not the point of RLE and never was.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-life_experience_%28transgender%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-life_experience_%28transgender%29)
http://www.trans-health.com/2003/real-life-test/ (http://www.trans-health.com/2003/real-life-test/)

Uh huh :) That is sort of the same thing which I am trying to achieve with my "self-administered RLE" - I like this term, used by Donna Elvira, very much ;). I see what are the things which help me to blend, what are the reactions/responses from those knowing me and complete strangers, and it also allows for those close to me to adjust. Then, taking into consideration what works and what does not work for me, I would proceed with next steps :P.

I am also very curious to learn how NHS helps with voice - I never heard about that :). Are they offering lessons or surgery?

Quote from: -Emily- on July 24, 2013, 05:15:56 AM
Uh huh :) That is sort of the same thing which I am trying to achieve with my "self-administered RLE" - I like this term, used by Donna Elvira, very much ;). I see what are the things which help me to blend, what are the reactions/responses from those knowing me and complete strangers, and it also allows for those close to me to adjust. Then, taking into consideration what works and what does not work for me, I would proceed with next steps :P.

I am also very curious to learn how NHS helps with voice - I never heard about that :). Are they offering lessons or surgery?

Actually, at the start of my transition, the NHS gave me a surgery date for CTA. I hadn't even started RLE at that point and my name was still male. I think I was pretty lucky how the NHS treated me back then. I cancelled because I managed with voice therapy alone. Personally, I think CTA is crude. They also provided speech therapy.

Also, I was 99.9% passable at the start of my RLE. Because of that, RLE for me was a piece of cake.

What is CTA???
I was told that I could be quite passable after the HRT - with or without makeup, but currently with some remaining facial hair I could only pass from a distance with gender neutral dress :P.

Quote from: -Emily- on July 24, 2013, 05:37:56 AM
What is CTA???

Cricothyroid approximation surgery used to feminise the voice:
http://voicedoctor.net/surgery/pitch/cricothyroid-approximation (http://voicedoctor.net/surgery/pitch/cricothyroid-approximation)

Quote
I was told that I could be quite passable after the HRT - with or without makeup, but currently with some remaining facial hair I could only pass from a distance with gender neutral dress :P.

Fantastic. It sounds like you're quite happy with progress so far.

So You would not suggest the CTA?

Yes, I am happy, but I am also the greatest enemy of my own :(. I feel like I am entering that in-between stage when I start drawing unnecessary and unwanted attention (RLE, here I go!) - and there is nothing from my previous life which could help me to cope with that. If somebody stared at me, I used to stare back with blank expression until one of us broke - not me usually, because I knew dirty tricks about this game :P. Now, I usually disengage and then check back after 5-7 secs and if they are still looking, I start getting nervous.

Quote from: -Emily- on July 24, 2013, 06:07:17 AM
So You would not suggest the CTA?

It leaves quite a long scar. The recovery period is not optimal. The one TS I knew that had undergone the procedure spoke in a falsetto tone that sounded more like Mickey Mouse than a female. I did not want to sound like that. It instantly put me off.

Quote
Yes, I am happy, but I am also the greatest enemy of my own :(. I feel like I am entering that in-between stage when I start drawing unnecessary and unwanted attention (RLE, here I go!) - and there is nothing from my previous life which could help me to cope with that. If somebody stared at me, I used to stare back with blank expression until one of us broke - not me usually, because I knew dirty tricks about this game :P. Now, I usually disengage and then check back after 5-7 secs and if they are still looking, I start getting nervous.

Those days were scary and exhilarating at the same time. On the underground it was worse where you couldn't escape. It's all good though. If you don't get stares then you have more of a problem.

Quote from: Nicolette on July 24, 2013, 04:09:37 AM
Are you suggesting that one is "cheating" their way through RLE if one looks 100% female at the start of RLE? May I humbly suggest that the idea that one must be put through some sort of metaphorical medieval torture device to see how much one wants to live the gender role one has chosen is utterly incorrect. Sorry, I cannot express strongly enough how I feel about this. This is not the point of RLE and never was.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-life_experience_%28transgender%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-life_experience_%28transgender%29)
http://www.trans-health.com/2003/real-life-test/ (http://www.trans-health.com/2003/real-life-test/)

No I am not suggesting one is cheating. I am saying if you look totally female after HRT what is the point of RLE? In the UK the point of RLE (no matter what RLE should really be about), is to look like a man in female clothes, like I've said.

So lets's say you payed for all your HRT and then only needed the NHS for SRS, it would be stupid if they wanted you to now start your RLE, looking like a female.

That said, they would want you to be wearing female clothes, of changed your name and be living full time as a female. So would that be enough RLE for the NHS?

Quote from: bethanyjadefowell on July 24, 2013, 10:15:07 AM
That said, they would want you to be wearing female clothes, of changed your name and be living full time as a female. So would that be enough RLE for the NHS?

Absolutely. I transitioned in the UK in the 90s and had never read any clause in any documentation that suggests that one has to look like a man in women's clothing for a valid RLE. If someone has told you this then I can tell you with complete certainty that this information is wrong. You deserve all the help you can get to pass as female. RLE is simply to determine whether you are happy living 24/7 in the female role. This is so that when you get to the point of undergoing irreversible surgery you will not then suddenly decide that living as a female is not for you with all the regret that entails.

Quote from: bethanyjadefowell on July 24, 2013, 10:13:19 AM
No I am not suggesting one is cheating. I am saying if you look totally female after HRT what is the point of RLE? In the UK the point of RLE (no matter what RLE should really be about), is to look like a man in female clothes, like I've said.

So lets's say you payed for all your HRT and then only needed the NHS for SRS, it would be stupid if they wanted you to now start your RLE, looking like a female.

What is the point indeed....

Quote from: Nicolette on July 24, 2013, 10:24:20 AM
RLE is simply to determine whether you are happy living 24/7 in the female role.

Yes, It's that as well. But you have to take all the crap that may come with RLE. Like a lot would say "I can't wear female clothes, I am still a man"

You can make yourself look as female as you like, but what the NHS are saying is, you have to be able to go out there and have people look at you funny or see you as a man.

My NHS DR said "you have to go out there as a man in female clothes". He did not say "you have to wear a skirt and high heeled shoes, and keep everything else like a man". He did say "so people can see you're a man in female clothes". But I am sure any NHS DR will know that not everyone will see you're a man.

Look what happened to me today: I was getting breakfast at the train station and the guy serving me said is that all "sir" and that's £2.95 "sir", then I had three people later that morning talk about me in another language, one asked me in english if I was "ok" then as they walked on kept looking back at me. But then in a shop someone called me " lady".

So the point I am making, you can make yourself look as female as you like, but you will get people who can tell you're a man.

And just going back to what my very first post. I have been told by a staff member at another red cross shop that I must to tell the area manager what my boss said. Not sure if I should though....

Had a text from a staff member from another red cross shop. Our area manager knows what was said from my boss. She just needs to know word word, from me what was said. I'll be telling her 2mro. Will post here, when I can tell you more.

Just got a message from a a transgender friend who use to volunteer for a Red Cross Shop. She has told the manager at the Bolton shop (NOT the one I work at) what was said by my boss to me. My friend said this:

"Transgenderphobia is a criminal offence and your manager needs to know this and that as a trangsendered person you are protected under the vulnerable adult laws"

Quote from: bethanyjadefowell on July 24, 2013, 03:47:56 PM
Just got a message from a a transgender friend who use to volunteer for a Red Cross Shop. She has told the manager at the Bolton shop (NOT the one I work at) what was said by my boss to me. My friend said this:

"Transgenderphobia is a criminal offence and your manager needs to know this and that as a trangsendered person you are protected under the vulnerable adult laws"

There you go Bethany, you need to share that with your manager!

Quote from: bethanyjadefowell on July 24, 2013, 12:08:16 PM
Yes, It's that as well. But you have to take all the crap that may come with RLE. Like a lot would say "I can't wear female clothes, I am still a man"

You can make yourself look as female as you like, but what the NHS are saying is, you have to be able to go out there and have people look at you funny or see you as a man.

My NHS DR said "you have to go out there as a man in female clothes". He did not say "you have to wear a skirt and high heeled shoes, and keep everything else like a man". He did say "so people can see you're a man in female clothes". But I am sure any NHS DR will know that not everyone will see you're a man.

This was probably meant to be taken figuratively. But a worse case scenario is if you're taken as a "man", even with your best efforts (even with HRT and FFS), can you handle that? Not only that, can you handle that for the rest of your life?

Quote
Look what happened to me today: I was getting breakfast at the train station and the guy serving me said is that all "sir" and that's £2.95 "sir", then I had three people later that morning talk about me in another language, one asked me in english if I was "ok" then as they walked on kept looking back at me. But then in a shop someone called me " lady".

So the point I am making, you can make yourself look as female as you like, but you will get people who can tell you're a man.

This is where HRT can really help. But rest assured, you won't have people telling you that you're a "man" once you've been on HRT for a while.

Quote from: bethanyjadefowell on July 24, 2013, 12:08:16 PM
Yes, It's that as well. But you have to take all the crap that may come with RLE. Like a lot would say "I can't wear female clothes, I am still a man"

You can make yourself look as female as you like, but what the NHS are saying is, you have to be able to go out there and have people look at you funny or see you as a man.

My NHS DR said "you have to go out there as a man in female clothes". He did not say "you have to wear a skirt and high heeled shoes, and keep everything else like a man". He did say "so people can see you're a man in female clothes". But I am sure any NHS DR will know that not everyone will see you're a man.

Look what happened to me today: I was getting breakfast at the train station and the guy serving me said is that all "sir" and that's £2.95 "sir", then I had three people later that morning talk about me in another language, one asked me in english if I was "ok" then as they walked on kept looking back at me. But then in a shop someone called me " lady".

So the point I am making, you can make yourself look as female as you like, but you will get people who can tell you're a man.

Sorry you're wrong. Not everyone masculinizes fully or at all. When I present female nobody thinks I'm a man. In fact when I present male no one thinks I'm a man other then people who know me. The point of RLE isn't too look like a man it is to experience life as female. Not to be humiliated. Your doctor is a quack if he or she thinks that What the RLE is about.

Just an up date. The manager of our Red Cross shop has left Red Cross. That is all I know, though I have been asked if I want to go back working for the Red Cross.

I hope to fine out why she has left, but I am thinking it is becouse of what she said to me, otherwise, they could of asked me to go back before now.

I won't be at the same Red Cross shop though. I decided that myself, as I couldn't work with the manager, and now I just want to start a new at a different shop.

Good for you bethany.

As a trans girl on NHS, I find the whole system cruel. You are expected to look like something from the rocky horror show instead of a regular girl. I mean take a look at a clothes shop and count the number of skirts vs jeans and trousers.

They give you no support until 10-20 months after your first appointment, depending on where you get referred to... Not a hormone pill, wig, advice, anything.

The only thing they do is make you wait for months, require you to jump through meaningless and cliché based hoops and ask you ridiculous questions. I was asked by my gender specialist questions like do your partner and you like kinky sex? What the hell?

I believe this is because they are paying for it, even though it comes from our taxes, but still. They like to weed out the ones who might not be serious, and the ones they can push out into private health care because they are desperate to stop making themselves a target.

Joanna Dark - the Dr.s opinion seems *very* common in the UK treatment programmes. It's not so much that you are deliberately putting yourself up for humiliation, its more that they expect you to look like a transsexual and they have very clichéd ideas of what that is.

Rant over! Promise!

Akira :-)

The NHS are 20 years behind other countries. If you look at other countries, they say, you don't have to wear a dress or a skirt to make yourself look female.

And the waiting times are mad! But there is a way to jump the the NHS system so you can be seen in the same month and start treatment in around a months time. I did this in the end, and the two NHS doctors I saw were very understanding about me not wanting to wait for over a year.

MAN I just can't believe how things have changed! Everything seems to have turned into a huge bureaucracy of rules and procedures with common sense having gone out the window!

To the best of my knowledge there are no "laws" anywhere governing RLE - it is all procedures and guidelines. Any doctor has the option of following the guidelines or not and it is up to individual surgeons what requirements they set for SRS. Any country is free to set their own bureaucratic "rules" that they may require to FUND treatment but, again, those are bureaucratic guidelines and NOT law!

Back in "the bad old days", before all these "standards of care" were wide spread (I am thinking pre-1974 which is the period I am familiar with), common sense prevailed and all of the decision making fell to the doctors. HRT could be started at the doctor's discretion, with or without any RLE, and even SRS was at the doctor's discretion! Of course no medical professional wanted to put a patient in a worse position than before treatment so the number and nature of any "roadblocks" was largely based on how confident the doctor was in the patient's ability and determination to succeed in their new gender. If the doctor felt a patient would be "passable" and had shown a persistent determination to change gender, the road was straight and and unimpeded. I had heard of cases, however, where a patient's ability to integrate smoothly into their target gender was very questionable and in such cases the requirements for HRT and SRS were much more demanding.

At 14 I was living part time as a girl, whenever I could get away from home (- it was not permitted at home and would have got me thrown out!), at 16 I was diagnosed (by Dr. Benjamin), and at 17 I was started on prescribed HRT (without parental consent) and at 20 I had a one-day 'psychological assessment'. It was not until I was 24 that SRS became available and my pre-surgery meeting with Dr. Biber was more like an audition than anything else. I had more doctors "bending the rules" to help me along rather than throwing up roadblocks!

It wasn't easy in those days finding help but I would rather have gone through it all when I did than to encounter the bureaucracy of today - I simply would not have survived the delays today!

I wish the UK system was like that. Even now after 12 months I am still being f***ed about with. I've done everything I've been asked to do, and still I am at the first day I started.

I understand about the RLE, but I don't understand why the UK make you fight to get to where you want to be.

No one is saying that we should be able to get HRT when ever we want, but would be so much better if they put you on a treatment that worked (im still waiting), then people like that so called boss may not of seen me as a man in female clothes.

Another reason that the ICATH / Informed Consent model needs more exposure and advocates. This entire thread makes me so sad. No one should be treated this way.

What I am saying is, I had 9 months of HRT, but I was told that the blocker I was on would not even work, and now another two month of HRT, with no blocker. So when you see 6 doctors in 12 months with only little breast growth, that stop last November, I'd say I've been f***ed about. As I had to start my HRT again from the beginning (after seeing two new doctors in London), I am at a stands still. That said, I am seeing my GP Monday (7th DR), I am hoping shell put me on blockers, but that is only if she thinks I need them.

Quote from: bethanyjadefowell on September 14, 2013, 12:45:50 PM
What I am saying is, I had 9 months of HRT, but I was told that the blocker I was on would not even work, and now another two month of HRT, with no blocker. So when you see 6 doctors in 12 months with only little breast growth, that stop last November, I'd say I've been f***ed about. As I had to start my HRT again from the beginning (after seeing two new doctors in London), I am at a stands still. That said, I am seeing my GP Monday (7th DR), I am hoping shell put me on blockers, but that is only if she thinks I need them.

Scrape together £240 and go and see Dr. Curtis at Transhealth (private London clinic). Take evidence of your RLE (deed poll, etc), and blood test results - it's your right to demand copies from your NHS records - you've had done for your previous HRT (it's costly to get these done privately). He follows WPATH guidelines (properly, unlike the NHS) so I'm fairly sure he'd prescribe hormones (consistently, unlike the NHS) within one/two appointments and if you can prove a year's RLE he'll give you a letter that'll let you get SRS - though privately. There is a fight waiting to happen with the NHS about being able to choose your own surgeon abroad (as many private surgeons that are vastly more experienced than than the NHS bunch actually cost less than the NHS bureaucracy manages to burn - I've read £35,000 per operation o.o). Some people have actually managed this already on a case-by-case basis with decent and reasonable PCTs. If you have a good GP they'll work with a private gender clinic if you ask them nicely to do blood work and prescriptions (so you don't have to pay privately). Though you aren't really "entitled" to this as it's a grey area and there is a sense of the GP actually gaming the system.

Note: when I say "NHS" it's not generally that simple though, a lot of the work is actually done privately - even the gender clinics, specially commissioned by NHS PCTs. Of course, they go cheap with block contracts which means loads of people get funnelled through the primitive disaster that is "Charring Cross".